8 ms·

The Free Software Foundation, in its texts, often uses the phrase "the free world" to mean the realm of computing without proprietary restrictions, surveillance

by mbrock 10y ago

The Free Software Foundation, in its texts, often uses the phrase "the free world" to mean the realm of computing without proprietary restrictions, surveillance, etc. Approximately since Snowden, I've become more and more convinced about both the fragility and the value of this free world. And today, I basically see the tech giants as colossal enemies. Career-wise, henceforth I will avoid proprietary systems and dedicate myself to working on privacy-enabling free software, even if I make less money. Many people in the free software movement have had more foresight and ethical intelligence than me, and I salute them! It's only recently that I'm able to start formulating my techno-political views in a coherent and strong way. Now, looking at a device like this, I automatically compare it to something like a tractor or plow. It demands constant connectivity to Google HQ... it's full of secret code... it requires, for its basic paradigm, a private company's acquisition of staggering amounts of surveillance... and so on. When I think about what to work on, a guiding question for me now is "What would Google not do?" I look forward to contributing to the free world! (Sorry for this quasi-manifestoish tone...)

manachar 10y ago
Freedom has always been fragile and eagerly bartered away for perceptions of safety and prosperity.
- fuck_google 10y ago
  "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty; power is ever stealing from the many to the few." - Wendell Phillips (Massachusetts Anti-Slavery Society on January 28, 1852.)
amelius 10y ago
But do you think that free software can keep up against these giants? In the near future, it will all be about having large amounts of data, and processing power; it will be less and less about the actual algorithms. I'm afraid the only way out will be to rethink the economy.
- mbrock 10y ago
  It's an interesting question. Of course there are advantages to having these huge proprietary data volume, so I'm thinking along the lines of, how can we make useful software with the benefits we want, without relying on this kind of proprietary collection? Maybe there are alternate paths that even have their own technical or social or aesthetic benefits? Well, it's a question for the next decades, I think...
- reitanqild 10y ago
  > In the near future, it will all be about having large amounts of data, and processing power; I don't think we are even close to the limits if what we can reach with standard desktop and server software.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    I agree. The current trend of outsourcing everything to "the cloud" is partially fashion, partially laziness, and mostly dictated by business models - why do something the right way (from engineering point of view), when you can lock your users up in your own garden and extract rent (either directly, or by spamming them with ads and selling their data)? Our devices have incredible amount of computing power now - a great untapped potential that we could use for something else than for supporting unnecessary indirection layers.
    - wwwdonohue 10y ago
      "Business models" are why your devices have such incredible computing power too.
      - TeMPOraL 10y ago
        I agree. But business models are not created equal. Personally, I'd like more of those giving useful technology and less of those that are artificially limiting it.
        10y ago
albi_lander 10y ago
In the realm of AI-powered products, having access to a large amount of users' date makes you rule, as it is a prerequisite to train algorithms that will understand many of your requests. I think many people are aware of the privacy issues that these new connected products come with, but what these innovations bring is so disruptive that for many people it's worth losing a bit of privacy. It is reasonable to be concerned by the fact that using Google was putting all eggs in one basket, however on the other hand Google bets on the fact that having all your data centralized like that allows them to build a very rich knowledge graph that you are the center and that will allow them to understand you much better than any other services, thus providing a much relevant experience.
unusximmortalis 10y ago
That's why I think an open source distributed & end to end encrypted social platform to replace facebook and google plus is needed too.
- BeefySwain 10y ago
  The issue isn't creating such a platform, it has been done. The issue is getting others to use it. That has not been done.
  - mikegioia 10y ago
    We've all been using one since the 80s: email. The interface is just poorly designed for social networking.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      The email we've all been using is not all open-source and end-to-end encrypted, though there are open-source clients, some of which support end-to-end encryption.
      - pmlnr 10y ago
        em... the only thing that is valid to support end-to-end encryption is the end client. Otherwise it's not end-to-end.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        Yes, and the end clients many people have been using don't support end-to-end encryption. So, we haven't all been using a e2e encrypted system already. We've been using a system over which e2e can be layered, and very few have been layering that over it. And many using it in a way where even with an e2e protocol, it wouldn't be secure, since they are using an third-party, remotely provided client that can be changed without their notice (webmail).
endgame 10y ago
> (Sorry for this quasi-manifestoish tone...) Don't be. I think it was very well said, and while I've been a bit of a Free Software hippie for a while it keeps hitting me over and over just how far ahead they saw.
- ap22213 10y ago
  It's amazing to me that free software is still strong after all of these years. I can remember back in the early 90s being fed propaganda from my college professors about "the communist" Stallman and his friends. They had made plenty of enemies back then and countless more since. Yet, they kept to their principles and moved things forward to the benefit of billions of people.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    They made enemies, because oh so many wanted to bootstrap from academia into business by putting proprietary wrappers around freely shared code. But the GPL basically forbids that.
  - madmax96 10y ago
    Nevermind the fact that most researchers hardly ever publish their source code, and often when they do it won't build on anyone else's machines.
niutech 10y ago
The private data should not be centralized in realms of Google, Apple, Microsoft, instead it should be federated. This is why in 2014 I issued the Private Internet of Things Manifesto (https://github.com/niutech/priot https://github.com/niutech/priot).
mrblah 10y ago
i'd love to see some work done in oss router firmware like tomato / dd-wrt to enable simple home automation tasks. not everyone needs a cloud assistant or has the chops to hack a web server onto their router.
EGreg 10y ago
Okay please see http://qbix.com/platform http://qbix.com/platform and - if you are interested - email me (my email is greg @ that domain)
dingle_thunk 10y ago
https://jasperproject.github.io/ https://jasperproject.github.io/
- nathan_f77 10y ago
  How accurate is the voice recognition? Even when restricted to a few command phrases, I struggle to see how this can be overly accurate when running on a Raspberry Pi. I've played with voice recognition in the past, and anything less than 98% accuracy is super frustrating after a week of usage. Siri is the most accurate voice recognition software I've used so far, and even Siri regularly fails to understand some words.
  - FlorianOver 10y ago
    It depends on the tts plugin you use. We have build and tested several tts plugins. I can recommend Microsoft Bing Voice and the new Google Speech API. Both are very rarely wrong.
    - pjc50 10y ago
      Aren't both of those "send the speech to the server" systems?
tomg 10y ago
> And today, I basically see the tech giants as colossal enemies. I think it's important to note that in-house voice recognition is simply the Nth iteration of a general trend away from privacy that has been going on for many many years. Eg: Our emails are scraped, and use to target ads. I see ads for specific things that I've only mentioned as a 'reminder email' from myself, to myself. SMS can be read as well, at least on Android if the user allows it. And even if you are very careful to avoid this (using iMessage, hosting your own email, etc), the people you interact with may be sharing this info. People upload their contacts to random services, and if you avoid doing that yourself, your friends may not. These are just trivial examples in the wild now which don't include state-level surveillance (legally mandated ISP web history tracking, license plate tracking, etc). I'm happy that having a microphone always listening in your home is bringing so many people around to this idea that maybe having companies know so much about you isn't an OK thing. But another part of me feels that short of strong privacy laws, the privacy ship sailed a long time ago.
- barrkel 10y ago
  Laws are usually written as a reaction to excess. But excess is measured as a distance between two points, and both are able to move: actions can be more extreme, and our judgements can be more or less harsh. I think things could change quite dramatically if there was a moral panic around it. A few more scandals - something personal that the voting public can really relate to, rather than something vague and distant and somewhat comforting to some people, like mass surveillance.
andrewd18 10y ago
> Now, looking at a device like this, I automatically compare it to something like a tractor or plow. It demands constant connectivity to Google HQ... it's full of secret code... it requires, for its basic paradigm, a private company's acquisition of staggering amounts of surveillance... and so on. As someone who used to write code for snowplows, they're also becoming quite centralized. Location, plow settings, salt per mile/km usage and other values are tracked in real time from the municipal office. Municipalities are increasingly strapped for cash, so performing real-time data analysis on their services can save them quite a bit of money in the long run.

by mbrock 10y ago

manachar 10y ago

Freedom has always been fragile and eagerly bartered away for perceptions of safety and prosperity.

fuck_google 10y ago
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty; power is ever stealing from the many to the few." - Wendell Phillips (Massachusetts Anti-Slavery Society on January 28, 1852.)

amelius 10y ago

But do you think that free software can keep up against these giants? In the near future, it will all be about having large amounts of data, and processing power; it will be less and less about the actual algorithms. I'm afraid the only way out will be to rethink the economy.

mbrock 10y ago
It's an interesting question. Of course there are advantages to having these huge proprietary data volume, so I'm thinking along the lines of, how can we make useful software with the benefits we want, without relying on this kind of proprietary collection? Maybe there are alternate paths that even have their own technical or social or aesthetic benefits? Well, it's a question for the next decades, I think...
reitanqild 10y ago
> In the near future, it will all be about having large amounts of data, and processing power; I don't think we are even close to the limits if what we can reach with standard desktop and server software.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  I agree. The current trend of outsourcing everything to "the cloud" is partially fashion, partially laziness, and mostly dictated by business models - why do something the right way (from engineering point of view), when you can lock your users up in your own garden and extract rent (either directly, or by spamming them with ads and selling their data)? Our devices have incredible amount of computing power now - a great untapped potential that we could use for something else than for supporting unnecessary indirection layers.
  - wwwdonohue 10y ago
    "Business models" are why your devices have such incredible computing power too.
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      I agree. But business models are not created equal. Personally, I'd like more of those giving useful technology and less of those that are artificially limiting it.
      - 10y ago

albi_lander 10y ago

In the realm of AI-powered products, having access to a large amount of users' date makes you rule, as it is a prerequisite to train algorithms that will understand many of your requests. I think many people are aware of the privacy issues that these new connected products come with, but what these innovations bring is so disruptive that for many people it's worth losing a bit of privacy. It is reasonable to be concerned by the fact that using Google was putting all eggs in one basket, however on the other hand Google bets on the fact that having all your data centralized like that allows them to build a very rich knowledge graph that you are the center and that will allow them to understand you much better than any other services, thus providing a much relevant experience.

unusximmortalis 10y ago

That's why I think an open source distributed & end to end encrypted social platform to replace facebook and google plus is needed too.

BeefySwain 10y ago
The issue isn't creating such a platform, it has been done. The issue is getting others to use it. That has not been done.
- mikegioia 10y ago
  We've all been using one since the 80s: email. The interface is just poorly designed for social networking.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    The email we've all been using is not all open-source and end-to-end encrypted, though there are open-source clients, some of which support end-to-end encryption.
    - pmlnr 10y ago
      em... the only thing that is valid to support end-to-end encryption is the end client. Otherwise it's not end-to-end.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        Yes, and the end clients many people have been using don't support end-to-end encryption. So, we haven't all been using a e2e encrypted system already. We've been using a system over which e2e can be layered, and very few have been layering that over it. And many using it in a way where even with an e2e protocol, it wouldn't be secure, since they are using an third-party, remotely provided client that can be changed without their notice (webmail).

endgame 10y ago

> (Sorry for this quasi-manifestoish tone...) Don't be. I think it was very well said, and while I've been a bit of a Free Software hippie for a while it keeps hitting me over and over just how far ahead they saw.

ap22213 10y ago
It's amazing to me that free software is still strong after all of these years. I can remember back in the early 90s being fed propaganda from my college professors about "the communist" Stallman and his friends. They had made plenty of enemies back then and countless more since. Yet, they kept to their principles and moved things forward to the benefit of billions of people.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  They made enemies, because oh so many wanted to bootstrap from academia into business by putting proprietary wrappers around freely shared code. But the GPL basically forbids that.
- madmax96 10y ago
  Nevermind the fact that most researchers hardly ever publish their source code, and often when they do it won't build on anyone else's machines.

niutech 10y ago

The private data should not be centralized in realms of Google, Apple, Microsoft, instead it should be federated. This is why in 2014 I issued the Private Internet of Things Manifesto (https://github.com/niutech/priot https://github.com/niutech/priot).

mrblah 10y ago

i'd love to see some work done in oss router firmware like tomato / dd-wrt to enable simple home automation tasks. not everyone needs a cloud assistant or has the chops to hack a web server onto their router.

EGreg 10y ago

Okay please see http://qbix.com/platform http://qbix.com/platform and - if you are interested - email me (my email is greg @ that domain)

dingle_thunk 10y ago

https://jasperproject.github.io/ https://jasperproject.github.io/

nathan_f77 10y ago
How accurate is the voice recognition? Even when restricted to a few command phrases, I struggle to see how this can be overly accurate when running on a Raspberry Pi. I've played with voice recognition in the past, and anything less than 98% accuracy is super frustrating after a week of usage. Siri is the most accurate voice recognition software I've used so far, and even Siri regularly fails to understand some words.
- FlorianOver 10y ago
  It depends on the tts plugin you use. We have build and tested several tts plugins. I can recommend Microsoft Bing Voice and the new Google Speech API. Both are very rarely wrong.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    Aren't both of those "send the speech to the server" systems?

tomg 10y ago

> And today, I basically see the tech giants as colossal enemies. I think it's important to note that in-house voice recognition is simply the Nth iteration of a general trend away from privacy that has been going on for many many years. Eg: Our emails are scraped, and use to target ads. I see ads for specific things that I've only mentioned as a 'reminder email' from myself, to myself. SMS can be read as well, at least on Android if the user allows it. And even if you are very careful to avoid this (using iMessage, hosting your own email, etc), the people you interact with may be sharing this info. People upload their contacts to random services, and if you avoid doing that yourself, your friends may not. These are just trivial examples in the wild now which don't include state-level surveillance (legally mandated ISP web history tracking, license plate tracking, etc). I'm happy that having a microphone always listening in your home is bringing so many people around to this idea that maybe having companies know so much about you isn't an OK thing. But another part of me feels that short of strong privacy laws, the privacy ship sailed a long time ago.

barrkel 10y ago
Laws are usually written as a reaction to excess. But excess is measured as a distance between two points, and both are able to move: actions can be more extreme, and our judgements can be more or less harsh. I think things could change quite dramatically if there was a moral panic around it. A few more scandals - something personal that the voting public can really relate to, rather than something vague and distant and somewhat comforting to some people, like mass surveillance.

andrewd18 10y ago

> Now, looking at a device like this, I automatically compare it to something like a tractor or plow. It demands constant connectivity to Google HQ... it's full of secret code... it requires, for its basic paradigm, a private company's acquisition of staggering amounts of surveillance... and so on. As someone who used to write code for snowplows, they're also becoming quite centralized. Location, plow settings, salt per mile/km usage and other values are tracked in real time from the municipal office. Municipalities are increasingly strapped for cash, so performing real-time data analysis on their services can save them quite a bit of money in the long run.