16 ms·

Do startups have a drinking problem?

151 points by steven 10y ago

neves 10y ago
I think the USA drinking problem is that the country think it is a problem. All around the world it is legal to drink some wine during lunch. One of the greatest pleasures of the world is to drink a cold beer at the beach, but it is illegal in USA. You can't legally make a Sunday picnic in a park with some beer and wine. You don't have cafe´s with a nice view to a public square where you can spend some time drinking and meeting your friends. These are the greatest drinking problem in America :-) Don't forget that USA was the country of the Prohibition, and till today its drinking laws is one of the strictest of the West.
- yompers888 10y ago
  Savannah, GA has no 'open container' law, and it's pretty nice. But yeah, what a dumb thing to do in the spirit of blind following.
unlinker 10y ago
Consider that the one with a problem might be you if you can't even have some champagne.
- bostonpete 10y ago
  The author states upfront that she is an alcoholic.
  - unlinker 10y ago
    I don't know how I missed that. Then, she's admitting that she's the one with a problem, not startups.
    - dpiers 10y ago
      Legally speaking, the startups do have a problem if they discriminate against her for being a recovering alcoholic.
      - koolba 10y ago
        Is being a recovering alcoholic a legally protected class?
        dpiers 10y ago
        Yes. An alcoholic is a person with a disability and is protected by the ADA if s/he is qualified to perform the essential functions of the job. An employer may be required to provide an accommodation to an alcoholic. However, an employer can discipline, discharge or deny employment to an alcoholic whose use of alcohol adversely affects job performance or conduct. An employer also may prohibit the use of alcohol in the workplace and can require that employees not be under the influence of alcohol. (from http://www.ada.gov/employmt.htm http://www.ada.gov/employmt.htm )
        Chris2048 10y ago
        Not guaranteed: ""in most cases, the court will find, or the employer will concede, that an alcoholic employee has a "disability" within the meaning of the ADA."" http://warshawskylawfirm.com/lawyer/2011/12/12/Employment_Law/Is_Alcoholism_A_Protected_Disability_Under_The_Americans_With_Disabilities_Act_(ADA)__bl3124.htm http://warshawskylawfirm.com/lawyer/2011/12/12/Employment_La...
    - lujim 10y ago
      She mentions a bunch of times in the article about the fact that she is a problem drinker/alcoholic. A diabetic that can't drink a glass of orange juice has a problem too, but not one that they deserve to be judged harshly for.
    - jon-wood 10y ago
      Yes, she's admitting she has a problem, and trying to take action which mitigates that problem for her. If she were a diabetic would you be defending her employer insisting that she eat a Mars bar when she's said no?
- gre 10y ago
  Champagne at 9:30am? It makes my mind foggy and I wouldn't get any work done for the rest of the day.
  - adrusi 10y ago
    If that were the only concern, then it probably would have been appropriate to drink the champagne. If your work suffers because your boss insisted you drink, then dicking around on HN for the rest of the day would be an acceptable option.
- klodolph 10y ago
  This comment is profoundly unsympathetic to people who have recovered from alcoholism and decided that for their own health they must abstain. This comment is profoundly unsympathetic to people with sensitivity to alcohol. I'm deeply grateful that my friends and the people I work with respect each others' boundaries with alcohol and other substances. So what if you do "have a problem"? Is it right for someone to push alcohol on you, knowing that you have a problem? Perhaps I should offer discounts at the liquor store to people who turn in their AA coins, because alcoholism is "their problem" not mine? Craig Ferguson's comments on alcoholism are worth listening to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZVWIELHQQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZVWIELHQQY
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- davegonzalez 10y ago
  Alcoholism aside, why do you think that it's OK to judge someone based on what they do/don't want to drink? Some people make the conscious choice to not have alcohol. That's OK!
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    Why wouldn't you judge someone on anything?
    - koolba 10y ago
      > Why wouldn't you judge someone on anything? Anyone can judge anyone on anything. In this particular case if someone judged a teetotaler negatively for not partaking, I'd judge them as an idiot.
- satysin 10y ago
  Let's reword that shall we ... > Consider that the one with a problem might be you if you can't even have one line of coke. > Consider that the one with a problem might be you if you can't even have just one hit of this joint. Why is it a problem for you if I don't want to put something that is not good for me into my body? Would you feel the same if I questioned why you don't have "just one cigarette with the guys" I mean go on, one cigarette won't kill you and you make us all feel uncomfortable when you don't join in. Be a team player don't be that guy.
- AimHere 10y ago
  That's exactly right. The author does have a problem. And one perfectly excellent way of managing the problem in question (alcoholism) is to not drink alcohol. Pressuring unwilling non-alcoholics into drinking is already a dick move to begin with. Coercing alcoholics into drinking (and possibly triggering a relapse of a problem which kills tens of thousands of people a year and ruins an order of magnitude more lives) is a hundred times worse.
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    Responses to alcohol are influenced by genetics. http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders/genetics-alcohol-use-disorders http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-con... So addiction is partly a genetic issue. Forcing people to do something their bodies aren't designed to handle is a serious dick move.
- dfraser992 10y ago
  And what would you say to me, given I'm diabetic? Yeah, I've had a few beers in my time, and still once in awhile. But I've finally realized in the last few years exactly how badly alcohol messes up blood sugar levels (honestly, practically every illegal drug is safer for me from a biochemical perspective because how the liver's function of regulating blood sugar levels is affected by alcohol) and so I drink far more judiciously now. I wish I'd paid more attention to this years ago. But alcohol is not really the point of the article, it is the emotional relationship to alcohol that people / society has and of the immaturity of this relationship. Her boss in the first anecdote sounds like a wanna-be cult leader. She should have mentioned his age; that would have been useful, I think - I am assuming the older one gets, the wiser about such things normal people get (the pointlessness of bullying people like that). You could substitute "agile", or some other fad buzzword, and you could easily write a similar article. I am now reminded of my stint at Peoplesoft, where first day of orientation was all about the wonders of becoming a PeoplePeople and PeopleThis and PeopleThat. It was pathetic. Companies consciously are using cult indoctrination tactics now, I think. The idea of 'pay people a decent wage in return for quality work' is ... old fashioned. Instead, you are supposed to give your soul to the company in return for ... what? I don't remember this attitude when I was in my twenties, but that was before the Internet happened and 20 year olds started becoming billionaires. When "rah rah rah" is the driving force, as opposed to a sense of professionalism, then that's not a job a sensible person wants. Software development / IT is not a religion, it is merely a craft.
tillinghast 10y ago
I think the more pertinent question from the example given is: "Did I work for colossal douchebags?"
- canistr 10y ago
  I disagree, many people I consider to not be colossal douchebags also tend to make the issue of alcohol frustrating and unbearable.
  - strictnein 10y ago
    They react like the people in this article? This founder sounds like a complete a-hole.
a_small_island 10y ago
When I click the link it loads and scrolls me all the way to the bottom of the article... very annoying.
- ryanSrich 10y ago
  It's because it's linked to a specific anchor. The mods should change the parent link to https://backchannel.com/do-startups-have-a-drinking-problem-920139d132a7 https://backchannel.com/do-startups-have-a-drinking-problem-...
voxmatt 10y ago
The behavior of some of the author's colleagues is incredibly embarrassing, and the behavior of some of the author's managers is just reprehensible. I hope that the more reprehensible behavior is simply an indicator of the problems of unexperienced founders/leaders. I know the nature of these anecdotes is not uncommon, but there does seem to be a clear line between the discomfort associated with office-sponsored drinking events and outright harassment. The larger discussion has merits, but I do think, for better or worse, startup culture is just a reflection of our alcohol focused social culture (and in full disclosure, I enjoy it). Startups are different in that they often blur the line between professional and social. This can certainly be problematic, but it's also one of the most significant reasons that I enjoy working at startups much, much more than traditional businesses.
- SilasX 10y ago
  Yeah, the founder at the beginning of the story seems like a real jerk -- taking personal insult at someone for refusing to drink champagne for the celebration, since "this is really big for us"? As if being there to celebrate with them isn't enough? And flipping out at anyone who asked for the same?
brandonmenc 10y ago
Speaking of drinking and startups, does anyone else not get the whole "drinking while coding" thing?
- Thriptic 10y ago
  Yeah in my experience alcohol only helps with high level ideation. It typically makes implementation more difficult.
- matwood 10y ago
  There is drinking to get drunk and there is having a glass of wine or a beer. If I've been working all day, and now it is after work and for some reason I am still working, a beer sounds great. If I was not disciplined enough to stop at one, I would definitely stick to zero though.
ianleeclark 10y ago
It's actually really weird being a young adult (23) who doesn't and has never drank. People will always look at you as if you're from another planet and you'll always be pestered for some justification. I remember taking an etiquette dinner/short class type thing during my college years and being reprimanded for responding, "No, thanks, but I don't drink," when offered a glass of wine. He said that I should always say, "No, thanks, but I won't be drinking tonight," otherwise I'd be making the others at the table feel bad about drinking alcohol. I'll never understand that, but that seems to resonate through society: don't rock the boat and make people aware of a moral decision to drink or to eat meat or to X. Just go with the flow and let everyone take their soma. This response came out unexpectedly negative.
- marricks 10y ago
  Yep, pretty similar if you say "I won't eat that, I'm vegan." Then you're in for some serious discussions about how plants somehow feel pain. People are insecure.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    How Mmany times have you heard that argument?
    - marricks 10y ago
      Lost count, at least a dozen.
- bostonpete 10y ago
  It was an etiquette class -- presumably for formal settings. Of course they're going to steer you away from certain topics -- what did you expect from such a class in the first place...?
- waimbes 10y ago
  It's not about reminding people of a moral position, it's about making people feel bad about the situation they have put you in. If you serve meat to a vegetarian and they say "sorry I don't eat meat," you feel bad because you've put them in an uncomfortable position, and now you are concerned about whether they will be comfortable/have a good time. Same with drinking.
samcheng 10y ago
This was an important lesson freshman year of college: It's OK to drink, even if you're underage, but you MUST provide Equally-Attractive Non-Alcoholic Beverages (EANABs) at your parties. And you must ensure that people from outside the university cannot enter the party. The author's boss is quite the philistine to insist that everyone drink! I guess he never worked with Muslims, alcoholics, anyone with an allergy or a genetic alcohol sensitivity, or anyone taking medicines that impact the liver.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > but you MUST provide EANABs What taught you this?
  - samcheng 10y ago
    The RAs (upperclassmen) and Fellows (resident faculty) in an all-freshmen dorm at Stanford.
canistr 10y ago
This is also the reason why I tend to stay away from Meetups/Startup events/recruiting events/etc. They tend to devolve into awkward situations for people like myself who don't drink or don't want to waste time with the "oh really? you don't drink at all?" conversations. I'm not an alcoholic, but people consistently feel the need to dive into why I don't drink, choose not to, and have never had a drink. And as much as people here or anywhere may say that they either A) don't care whether I'm drinking or B) feel awkward around others who don't drink, the reality is that the culture is centred around whether you drink and how much.
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  People are curious because the answer to "why you don't drink" is usually a quite revealing fucked up reason. Prior alcoholism, court order, "yeast allergy". Its so RARELY because of the latest diet or preservation of your liver or religion that people are right often enough to consider it a red flag and want to know what fucked up reason you have.
  - rimunroe 10y ago
    I think you are probably living in a bubble if you think that those reasons are rare. I'm in Boston (not the most diverse place) and I know a bunch of people in the local industry who don't drink for religious or dietary reasons. Moreover, two of the things you mentioned as being red flags (alcoholism and an allergy in scare quotes) aren't things I would ever consider red flags. If someone is an alcoholic and abstains from alcohol, that's probably a pretty good sign about the person! If someone claims a medical condition which prevents them from drinking, well, I'm not a doctor/health expert so I'm not going to judge that.
    - cloudjacker 10y ago
      I don't have a rebuttal, good observaton about me living in a bubble of upstanding intellectuals
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
datruth29 10y ago
This behavior of someone taking offense to you not wanting to drink with them is something I've seen before. What's particularly infuriating about it is that you shouldn't need any particular reason not to drink. Whether it's because you're a recovering alcoholic, or you just don't feel like it, a simple "No thank you" should be enough. On a side note, I remember having a discussion with a coworker about after work drinks. She noted how sometimes people would be willing to stay and work more if they knew they were going out for drinks afterwards. I imagine the way alcohol can relive stress with immediacy can lead one to willingly work in more harsh conditions. Hell, I've stood extremely late several times just because I knew I can join up with friends later for a drink.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
throwaway2016a 10y ago
We had someone who came to work for us that told the whole company he was a recovered alcoholic and everyone was real nice about it. The bosses and co-workers in this story just sound like colossal jerks. I actually have an opposite problem, though. We stock the fridge with craft beer but since everyone is a health nut (I use it as a terms of endearment) no one wants beer at 6:00 so sometimes I end up being the only one and that feels awkward. But I've been at the office 11 hours, I want to treat myself. Also, I find the thought of Beer Pong at the office to be very alarming. Foosball, sure, but Beer Pong? What are we, Freshmen in college? But I'm in a East Coast office. We're annoyingly all business here. It is probably different elsewhere.
- beamatronic 10y ago
  The first time I experienced Beer Pong or Keg Stands was at a software company in the Bay Area edit: I didn't mind those at all. But I did not care for Pajama Day and the pressure to wear pajamas on Pajama Day
  - highstep 10y ago
    thank you for reminding me why I love being a remote worker :)
- ryandrake 10y ago
  I don't think it matters what coast you're on. Beer Pong at the office is probably considered inappropriate in almost any work setting.
- jqm 10y ago
  Who wants to drink a beer that had a ball in it that had been rolling around on the floor? Beer pong is just dumb all the way around even as a freshman in college.
  - jps359 10y ago
    Every single time I've played we filled the pong cups with water and have whatever you're drinking (beer, soda, cranberry juice) on the side. Whenever they sink a ball, just drink your own drink. I was under the impression most people played like this?
Apreche 10y ago
I'm not a sober alcoholic, I'm just a person that doesn't drink for a variety of reasons. I can tell you that this isn't just startups. It's our entire society. I work at a non-startup and there's a happy hour every Friday at the end of the day. Everyone else is VERY EXCITED for this Happy Hour. I'm still excited because we basically stop working, but not nearly as excited as everyone else. Even outside work, when I go to social gatherings, people are drinking. Drinking is the main attraction for most people. If I go to a meetup, I'm the only one who cares primarily about what the meetup is supposed to be about. Go to a concert, other people get drunk, I am the only one actually trying to enjoy the music. Even hanging with my friends watching a movie, I'm actually trying to pay attention to the movie, but for everyone else, they have to "enhance" the experience with some beverages. Go to any conference or convention? After-work party? These events are ALWAYS at bars. What am I supposed to do in a bar? It's the most uncomfortable place in the world to be for someone who doesn't drink. It's like someone who can't swim hanging out at the public pool. While not drinking makes social life, especially in NYC, a bit more difficult, I do not have the same experience as you. Nobody has ever been a dick to me about not drinking. They just accept it. I've had some people ask why, but that's fine. I'll just explain to them. I guess that might be more troubling if my reason was a past of alcoholism. I've never had anyone get mad or anything. So I think that aspect might just be an aspect of startup bro culture. Not that I needed another reason to never work for one.
- draw_down 10y ago
  Right, it's very strange to try to localize this to one industry, because drinking is the main way that adults socialize in society all over the world. I mean, I like it, so it's not a problem for me. But it is interesting how people minimize the dangers of it and exaggerate the problems of a much less harmful drug like cannabis.
- Al-Khwarizmi 10y ago
  What am I supposed to do in a bar? You can ask for a coffee, tea, a coke, alcohol-free beer, water, etc.
- VLM 10y ago
  "It's the most uncomfortable place in the world to be for someone who doesn't drink. It's like someone who can't swim hanging out at the public pool." No one can tell the difference between a rum and coke, and a coke. It works for me pretty well. We have some similar outlooks, and perhaps you'll find my sneaky idea to be useful. Its much easier to fake drinking than to fake swimming. I don't even have a variety of reasons not to drink. In the LSD community or whatever you want to call it there's a well known effect called the 50 trip limit or 100 trip limit or whatever number, after doing it 50 times you're either repeating because you never thought about it, or you're bored with the whole experience, or you're hopelessly addicted. Same with alcohol, at least for me. I've done it all, drank incredible amounts, stayed up all night, passed out, puked up gallons, made out, had all kinds of fascinating hangovers, its really an interesting, although fundamentally worthless, experience. I checked every square on the checklist. Once your inner completionist is satisfied, its really a very boring and unpleasant experience. And now that its boring, I just don't do it anymore. It isn't the kind of response that fits in 10 words or less at a bar. So I just order a coke and everyone assumes its a rum and coke.
mlvljr 10y ago
Finally an area where we Russians must have an advantage, mua-ha-ha!!
astazangasta 10y ago
This seems to me a problem with an infantile culture, and not alcohol per se. The founder in the anecdote is obviously a person of poor judgment, unable to empathize, egotistical. This kind of enfant terrible is worshipped and celebrated by SV culture, given power, their fits and tantrums indulged and even encouraged as part of their mystique of genius, their disruptive zero-fucks-given. This problem runs deep; alcohol is only a smidgeon of it.
noarchy 10y ago
Should it be seen as a red flag when you're given a tour of the office (maybe during an interview process) and they make it a point to show your the beer fridge? My anecdotes aren't data, of course, but every time I've had that kind of experience, I've discovered that there's an implicit expectation that you'll stay at work later and drink said beer.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  A red flag of what kind of harm exactly?
  - noarchy 10y ago
    I was hinting at that towards the end of my post: the idea that you're expected to drink it if it is offered, particularly after work hours are over. Not all of us fancy sticking around at the end of the day.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      Doesn't seems too harmful to me. A corp that wants to milk people of overtime are not likely to want them drinking a lot, especially for dev.
      - noarchy 10y ago
        >Doesn't seems too harmful to me. A corp that wants to milk people of overtime are not likely to want them drinking a lot, especially for dev. Then you may not have seen as much of this phenomenon as others of us. There are definitely companies encouraging on-site drinking.
        Chris2048 10y ago
        Do those same companies pressure overtime work?
        10y ago
mst 10y ago
Things I enjoy doing: When there's some sort of thing where there's free alcohol, and somebody says they don't drink, interrupt before somebody can ask an intrusive question with "excellent, more for me then" and if possible clinking my glass with theirs. Usually spikes (pun absolutely intended) any issue before it starts.
chrisp_dc 10y ago
I'm not sure it is just startups. I think larger/more established companies fit into this too, but they may just be emulating hip startups. I work at a 100-500 person company. I do not attend most company events because of the amount of drinking. I hate meeting with clients because the amount of drinking. As someone who used to regularly show up to work drunk, it's not a healthy atmosphere for me. However, I do feel an odd sense of loyalty because 2+ years ago they let me go to rehab instead of canning me.
aaroninsf 10y ago
Everyone knows the answer is _yes_ without clicking. The only qualification is to modify "startups" to "startup culture." Are there exceptions? Of course! But the prevailing culture enshrines and celebrates a lot of the worst aspects of being young, male, and competitive. It's absolutely non-unique in this respect, but honestly, there should be a much stronger countervailing voice flatly stating, _we can do and be better than this_.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  The counterpoint is that it's still true if I modify "startup culture" to "culture". It may be more in-your-face when it's about colleagues, but drinking-as-socialization is an American (and European) pattern, not a startup one. It goes for college parties, it goes for dinner with clients at big companies, it goes for 4th of July barbecues, and it goes for fancy Sonoma Valley wine tastings. At a certain point it feels like pretense to blame it on startup culture - startup culture is largely an intensified, sped-up version of everyday culture, and everyday culture is plenty focused on drinking.
  - aaroninsf 10y ago
    I disagree, though living in San Francisco it's hard to remember how unique and relatively narrow the cultural spectrum of this industry and place are. The marriage of drinking and and alpha dominance displays of all kinds, are in my life experience dominant elements in contemporary US culture; they are not even tolerated in some circles. In many places I have lived what they call 'nightlife' is strictly demarcated by space and time. I'd wager this is just one more place where the work / life distinction has become very blurred or has vanished entirely, around here. :/ In any event on the brighter side, we can look forward to the hangover!
hadtosay 10y ago
I don't drink now, and I like to say "It works out pretty good - when people drink, they get relaxed. And when they get relaxed, I get relaxed" It's worked well for me, ymmv.
grishas 10y ago
IMO, The tech industry has a huge alcohol problem in general. It's not uncommon for even largeish companies to have beer kegs and frequent happy hours. Just recently we had a team event that revolved around alcohol, a mixology class. Although attendance wasn't mandatory, it wasn't exactly optional either. So there was a lot of awkwardness considering a number of people on our team were non-drinking muslims, 1 person was pregnant, and several others just don't drink. This creates an exclusionary sort of culture, and as one of my coworkers said it "I don't really want to be forced to go to the bar with my middle aged male colleagues". If you think about it, it does seem a bit creepy. Other industries have moved on from this sort of model. Sure, there still can be alcohol at events and the occasional BBQ with beer or happy hour, but they have strict policies about returning to work after consuming alcohol, and alcohol is not the main focus of the event. I take full advantage of the beer keg at our office, but if it went away I certainly wouldn't be upset. I'd just do what I used to do, and go to the bar after work with coworkers who want to go.
- fleitz 10y ago
  I don't work at vegan companies, or non-profits, their cultures aren't compatible with me. However, I wouldn't go around saying they have a "smug problem" that's their culture and their welcome to it, the moment I want to work at those cultures I'll either accept the conflict or do as the Romans do. What is assholish is to insist that everyone else change what they enjoy just because you don't like it.
  - cname 10y ago
    Who are you responding to? I can't see where anyone is insisting that everyone else should change.
    - fleitz 10y ago
      Generally when highlighting problems, you want them to change... I mean who is like "Oh you have a drinking problem, just keep drinking, it's fine, I dunno why I even brought it up" I've been around alcoholics, one night I bought a case of beer and had a couple beers while coding, then I got a talk from my girlfriend in AA about how drinking alone is a sign of alcoholism. Startups don't have a drinking problem, alcoholics have a self-control problem.
md224 10y ago
Hey 'dang, why is this so far down the front page? Is it because people flagged it? I feel like there's some very good discussion here. Edit: Uhh... I was downvoted for asking this? Depressing.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
mathattack 10y ago
That is a tremendously courageous post. Not many people can publicly discuss their addictions. I've worked at many places that have had a strong alcohol after work culture, but it's only recently that I've seen it in work hours. As someone who likes to drink, it hasn't bothered me, but I also don't want to be exclusive of people. Many people choose not to drink due to their religion or health goals, as well as addiction. I wish the world were a better place about this, but this is part of the background checking one needs to know about a new job. If you're worried about being able to take off to see your kid's play, you have to inquire if any of the senior execs have kids. If you are worried about age discrimination, you have to see if others with gray hair are thriving there. And if you're worried about an alcoholic culture, look for people who don't drink. This is very hard to bring up in an interview, but you can learn about culture via back channels. For what it's worth, when I went through periods of non-drinking, I would just tell people that I was training for a martial arts competition, and needed to keep my weight down.
mikeash 10y ago
My own experience (and I won't claim this is necessarily representative) is that drinking is a big part of it, but nobody will care at all if you refrain. Asking for water or soda instead of alcohol will barely get a second glance. I think the title of this article would be better written as "Do startups have an asshole problem?" It just so happened that the asshole problem manifested in terms of alcohol because that's where the author was set up to come into conflict with the assholes. You could easily have the same sort of experience as a vegetarian in a company that revolved around barbecues and steak. That wouldn't mean startups have a "meat problem," but that they have an asshole problem that manifests in terms of meat because that's where you're in conflict. Other possibilities include smartphone ownership, hobbies, and political affiliation. Alcohol is certainly an interesting case because it's one of the few drugs that's legal, socially acceptable, and extremely commonly used. The only other one I can think of is caffeine, and even there we tend to go out of our way to make non-caffeinated equivalents available. But it seems to me that hassling people because they don't drink is just a symptom of a larger problem, which is that there are assholes in power, and one of the things assholes do is hassle people who are different.
- danesparza 10y ago
  +1 for "Do startups have an asshole problem?". Not because I think that most engineers at startups are assholes (quite the contrary), but because I think that puts the content of the article more succinctly. If this were me, the next morning I'd be either a.) Talking with HR, or (more likely) b.) looking for another job. Life is too short to have to deal with assholes.
- lj3 10y ago
  > I think the title of this article would be better written as "Do startups have an asshole problem?" It just so happened that the asshole problem manifested in terms of alcohol because that's where the author was set up to come into conflict with the assholes. I think startups may have an asshole problem as well, but that's not the context I got from the article. Startups have a much larger problem and that is the insistence that your job is a lifestyle, a culture. It's not enough to show up and do your job well and get along with everybody. You have to fit in as well. If you don't, it affects your future career prospects. Drinking is the norm. It's expected, along with wearing certain clothes, using certain tech stacks and having certain political opinions. There are a multitude of ways not to fit in. Alcohol is just one of them.
cogentleman 10y ago
I am 23, work at a startup, and also never drink, but definitely disagree with the implications of this post. Startups don't have any sort of particularly entrenched alcohol culture in the US- everyone does. And it's not really a problem, either. You can't ask for planet earth to be a safe space so you never get tempted by your booze urges again, just continue refusing, it's not something that can- or should- go away entirely.
- flatpointer23 10y ago
  There is a big difference between work being a safe space where no one drinks, and one where your boss berates you harshly for not drinking. The article depicts the latter situation. I drink; I don't care if people don't drink. I would never, ever respond to someone asking for water the way this writer's boss did. The boss acts as though he has been personally insulted. That's garbage.
ChemicalWarfare 10y ago
My take on this is sharing a drink is one of the major (if not THE major) ways of socializing in our culture. So I can totally understand the INITIAL knee-jerk reaction when someone refuses to drink with 'the team' as this might be seen as a refusal to socialize. Although if someone politely refuses to drink, it's really none of my business why. I for example wouldn't drink [much lol] before a heavy squat day but I totally don't want to start explaining/justifying this to someone who never lifted anything heavier than a pint.
everyone 10y ago
I think startups* have a bullshit enforced 'fun' problem in general. Whats fun for the founders may not be fun for me. Its still a job, I'd rather put that wasted money into higher salaries. Thats how IBM do it, their offices are crap and have shitty bare bone facilities but they pay well, you can buy whatever whimsical crap you want on your own dime. *At least the stereotypical silicon valley style ones
- Avshalom 10y ago
  It's part of convincing people they don't need money or a life outside of work. "sure we're paying you market rate for a 40 an hour worker and sure you're here 100hrs a week but why would you go home anyway we can get drunk here in the three hours a week we don't expect you to work"
- mathattack 10y ago
  I'm not sure I agree on IBM. I heard horror stories from folks at Watson, supposedly their big future money maker, complaining that they couldn't hire competitively due to salaries and work environment. In NYC they're around the corner from companies like Google which manage to pay people well, and have all the perks. Of course I agree - show me the money. But not everyone else thinks that way.
joesmo 10y ago
In my experience working in the Bay Area, this is hardly limited to startups. I worked at over a dozen places if not more, from startups to the giant technology companies, and all but one had massive amounts of alcohol on premises and drank in the office. I've been offered drink in interviews that to me said implicitly: either drink this or you're definitely not getting the job. I've seen coworkers leave work drunk and drive. I've had friends who are recovering from cancer and shouldn't be drinking admit to me that they felt pressured. It's not an issue of whether there is a drinking problem, but how big is the drinking problem? In my experience, it's everywhere, at least in the Bay Area. I'm not sure about other areas, but I doubt they're much different. It's hardly a wonder that frat culture and brogrammers exist with this amount of drinking, nor is it a wonder that so many things are built to sub par standards, often by sub par people. It really wouldn't be that big of a deal if people were mature and tolerant of others who don't drink, not like the asshole bosses described in the article. There is a wide variety of factors why one might not drink, many of which one may not want to share: alcoholism, religion, health, doesn't like the taste, doesn't want to get retarded, needs to drive after, still needs to do work (yes this comes up often), etc. Especially for recovering alcoholics, no job is worth drinking over. Stupid assholes in charge, don't understand that and then they wonder why their company is failing when they're doing their best to keep away qualified workers.
placeybordeaux 10y ago
>We began placing orders for the family style meal, when my boss suddenly announced to the room that I wouldn’t be eating meat. People began to chuckle, saying things like, “How can you be in Argentina and not try the meat!?” “You’re not going to try the beef? You don’t know what you’re missing!” Then, my boss added, “Yeah, she doesn’t drink either. I mean, what the fuck is wrong with her?” Several people laughed alongside my boss. That is the most important part of the article. Your boss is a dick.
teddyh 10y ago
See also: Our Culture of Exclusion from 2012. Originally at (http://old.ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/ http://old.ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/), but the author has removed it. There exists a copy here (https://gist.github.com/jseifer/2314204 https://gist.github.com/jseifer/2314204) with all references to alcohol replaced with “meat”, but you can read it and get the general gist, anyway.
- teddyh 10y ago
  Update: Found an available copy on the Internet Archive here: https://web.archive.org/web/20130808111450/http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130808111450/http://ryanfunduk...
King-Aaron 10y ago
One glass of Champagne, hold the phone, this is a major problem! Or it's one person who's personal aversion to drinking alcohol is skewing their perception. It all just makes me laugh, because when they mentioned Boulder, I instantly thought of the Boulder here in Western Australia... Which is a place that basically operates around the local pubs, haha.
eshwar 10y ago
People have been having drinking problems since ages. Why put it down to startups?
gshulegaard 10y ago
I feel like the author extrapolates her anecdotal experience in a dishonest way. First, as others have said, this isn't so much a drinking problem as often a culture problem ("asshole problem"). The first "start-up" I worked for didn't allow alcohol in the office, period. Second, as a 24 year old now 3 years in the professional world and two jobs (so limited exposure), I can honestly say I have never been pressured to drink or go drinking at either of the start ups I have worked at (thus far). In college I joined a fraternity so I'd like to think I have seen first hand what that looks like. I don't want to belittle the discussion about the bigger picture issues of start-up culture (as well as the bigger picture benefits), but the author here seems like she had a bad _work_ experience that just happened to be at a start-up and now has a chip on her shoulder when it comes to _all_ startups.

151 points by steven 10y ago

neves 10y ago

I think the USA drinking problem is that the country think it is a problem. All around the world it is legal to drink some wine during lunch. One of the greatest pleasures of the world is to drink a cold beer at the beach, but it is illegal in USA. You can't legally make a Sunday picnic in a park with some beer and wine. You don't have cafe´s with a nice view to a public square where you can spend some time drinking and meeting your friends. These are the greatest drinking problem in America :-) Don't forget that USA was the country of the Prohibition, and till today its drinking laws is one of the strictest of the West.

yompers888 10y ago
Savannah, GA has no 'open container' law, and it's pretty nice. But yeah, what a dumb thing to do in the spirit of blind following.

unlinker 10y ago

Consider that the one with a problem might be you if you can't even have some champagne.

bostonpete 10y ago
The author states upfront that she is an alcoholic.
- unlinker 10y ago
  I don't know how I missed that. Then, she's admitting that she's the one with a problem, not startups.
  - dpiers 10y ago
    Legally speaking, the startups do have a problem if they discriminate against her for being a recovering alcoholic.
    - koolba 10y ago
      Is being a recovering alcoholic a legally protected class?
      - dpiers 10y ago
        Yes. An alcoholic is a person with a disability and is protected by the ADA if s/he is qualified to perform the essential functions of the job. An employer may be required to provide an accommodation to an alcoholic. However, an employer can discipline, discharge or deny employment to an alcoholic whose use of alcohol adversely affects job performance or conduct. An employer also may prohibit the use of alcohol in the workplace and can require that employees not be under the influence of alcohol. (from http://www.ada.gov/employmt.htm http://www.ada.gov/employmt.htm )
        Chris2048 10y ago
        Not guaranteed: ""in most cases, the court will find, or the employer will concede, that an alcoholic employee has a "disability" within the meaning of the ADA."" http://warshawskylawfirm.com/lawyer/2011/12/12/Employment_Law/Is_Alcoholism_A_Protected_Disability_Under_The_Americans_With_Disabilities_Act_(ADA)__bl3124.htm http://warshawskylawfirm.com/lawyer/2011/12/12/Employment_La...
  - lujim 10y ago
    She mentions a bunch of times in the article about the fact that she is a problem drinker/alcoholic. A diabetic that can't drink a glass of orange juice has a problem too, but not one that they deserve to be judged harshly for.
  - jon-wood 10y ago
    Yes, she's admitting she has a problem, and trying to take action which mitigates that problem for her. If she were a diabetic would you be defending her employer insisting that she eat a Mars bar when she's said no?
gre 10y ago
Champagne at 9:30am? It makes my mind foggy and I wouldn't get any work done for the rest of the day.
- adrusi 10y ago
  If that were the only concern, then it probably would have been appropriate to drink the champagne. If your work suffers because your boss insisted you drink, then dicking around on HN for the rest of the day would be an acceptable option.
klodolph 10y ago
This comment is profoundly unsympathetic to people who have recovered from alcoholism and decided that for their own health they must abstain. This comment is profoundly unsympathetic to people with sensitivity to alcohol. I'm deeply grateful that my friends and the people I work with respect each others' boundaries with alcohol and other substances. So what if you do "have a problem"? Is it right for someone to push alcohol on you, knowing that you have a problem? Perhaps I should offer discounts at the liquor store to people who turn in their AA coins, because alcoholism is "their problem" not mine? Craig Ferguson's comments on alcoholism are worth listening to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZVWIELHQQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZVWIELHQQY
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
davegonzalez 10y ago
Alcoholism aside, why do you think that it's OK to judge someone based on what they do/don't want to drink? Some people make the conscious choice to not have alcohol. That's OK!
- Chris2048 10y ago
  Why wouldn't you judge someone on anything?
  - koolba 10y ago
    > Why wouldn't you judge someone on anything? Anyone can judge anyone on anything. In this particular case if someone judged a teetotaler negatively for not partaking, I'd judge them as an idiot.
satysin 10y ago
Let's reword that shall we ... > Consider that the one with a problem might be you if you can't even have one line of coke. > Consider that the one with a problem might be you if you can't even have just one hit of this joint. Why is it a problem for you if I don't want to put something that is not good for me into my body? Would you feel the same if I questioned why you don't have "just one cigarette with the guys" I mean go on, one cigarette won't kill you and you make us all feel uncomfortable when you don't join in. Be a team player don't be that guy.
AimHere 10y ago
That's exactly right. The author does have a problem. And one perfectly excellent way of managing the problem in question (alcoholism) is to not drink alcohol. Pressuring unwilling non-alcoholics into drinking is already a dick move to begin with. Coercing alcoholics into drinking (and possibly triggering a relapse of a problem which kills tens of thousands of people a year and ruins an order of magnitude more lives) is a hundred times worse.
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  Responses to alcohol are influenced by genetics. http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders/genetics-alcohol-use-disorders http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-con... So addiction is partly a genetic issue. Forcing people to do something their bodies aren't designed to handle is a serious dick move.
dfraser992 10y ago
And what would you say to me, given I'm diabetic? Yeah, I've had a few beers in my time, and still once in awhile. But I've finally realized in the last few years exactly how badly alcohol messes up blood sugar levels (honestly, practically every illegal drug is safer for me from a biochemical perspective because how the liver's function of regulating blood sugar levels is affected by alcohol) and so I drink far more judiciously now. I wish I'd paid more attention to this years ago. But alcohol is not really the point of the article, it is the emotional relationship to alcohol that people / society has and of the immaturity of this relationship. Her boss in the first anecdote sounds like a wanna-be cult leader. She should have mentioned his age; that would have been useful, I think - I am assuming the older one gets, the wiser about such things normal people get (the pointlessness of bullying people like that). You could substitute "agile", or some other fad buzzword, and you could easily write a similar article. I am now reminded of my stint at Peoplesoft, where first day of orientation was all about the wonders of becoming a PeoplePeople and PeopleThis and PeopleThat. It was pathetic. Companies consciously are using cult indoctrination tactics now, I think. The idea of 'pay people a decent wage in return for quality work' is ... old fashioned. Instead, you are supposed to give your soul to the company in return for ... what? I don't remember this attitude when I was in my twenties, but that was before the Internet happened and 20 year olds started becoming billionaires. When "rah rah rah" is the driving force, as opposed to a sense of professionalism, then that's not a job a sensible person wants. Software development / IT is not a religion, it is merely a craft.

tillinghast 10y ago

I think the more pertinent question from the example given is: "Did I work for colossal douchebags?"

canistr 10y ago
I disagree, many people I consider to not be colossal douchebags also tend to make the issue of alcohol frustrating and unbearable.
- strictnein 10y ago
  They react like the people in this article? This founder sounds like a complete a-hole.

a_small_island 10y ago

When I click the link it loads and scrolls me all the way to the bottom of the article... very annoying.

ryanSrich 10y ago
It's because it's linked to a specific anchor. The mods should change the parent link to https://backchannel.com/do-startups-have-a-drinking-problem-920139d132a7 https://backchannel.com/do-startups-have-a-drinking-problem-...

voxmatt 10y ago

The behavior of some of the author's colleagues is incredibly embarrassing, and the behavior of some of the author's managers is just reprehensible. I hope that the more reprehensible behavior is simply an indicator of the problems of unexperienced founders/leaders. I know the nature of these anecdotes is not uncommon, but there does seem to be a clear line between the discomfort associated with office-sponsored drinking events and outright harassment. The larger discussion has merits, but I do think, for better or worse, startup culture is just a reflection of our alcohol focused social culture (and in full disclosure, I enjoy it). Startups are different in that they often blur the line between professional and social. This can certainly be problematic, but it's also one of the most significant reasons that I enjoy working at startups much, much more than traditional businesses.

SilasX 10y ago
Yeah, the founder at the beginning of the story seems like a real jerk -- taking personal insult at someone for refusing to drink champagne for the celebration, since "this is really big for us"? As if being there to celebrate with them isn't enough? And flipping out at anyone who asked for the same?

brandonmenc 10y ago

Speaking of drinking and startups, does anyone else not get the whole "drinking while coding" thing?

Thriptic 10y ago
Yeah in my experience alcohol only helps with high level ideation. It typically makes implementation more difficult.
matwood 10y ago
There is drinking to get drunk and there is having a glass of wine or a beer. If I've been working all day, and now it is after work and for some reason I am still working, a beer sounds great. If I was not disciplined enough to stop at one, I would definitely stick to zero though.

ianleeclark 10y ago

It's actually really weird being a young adult (23) who doesn't and has never drank. People will always look at you as if you're from another planet and you'll always be pestered for some justification. I remember taking an etiquette dinner/short class type thing during my college years and being reprimanded for responding, "No, thanks, but I don't drink," when offered a glass of wine. He said that I should always say, "No, thanks, but I won't be drinking tonight," otherwise I'd be making the others at the table feel bad about drinking alcohol. I'll never understand that, but that seems to resonate through society: don't rock the boat and make people aware of a moral decision to drink or to eat meat or to X. Just go with the flow and let everyone take their soma. This response came out unexpectedly negative.

marricks 10y ago
Yep, pretty similar if you say "I won't eat that, I'm vegan." Then you're in for some serious discussions about how plants somehow feel pain. People are insecure.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  How Mmany times have you heard that argument?
  - marricks 10y ago
    Lost count, at least a dozen.
bostonpete 10y ago
It was an etiquette class -- presumably for formal settings. Of course they're going to steer you away from certain topics -- what did you expect from such a class in the first place...?
waimbes 10y ago
It's not about reminding people of a moral position, it's about making people feel bad about the situation they have put you in. If you serve meat to a vegetarian and they say "sorry I don't eat meat," you feel bad because you've put them in an uncomfortable position, and now you are concerned about whether they will be comfortable/have a good time. Same with drinking.

samcheng 10y ago

This was an important lesson freshman year of college: It's OK to drink, even if you're underage, but you MUST provide Equally-Attractive Non-Alcoholic Beverages (EANABs) at your parties. And you must ensure that people from outside the university cannot enter the party. The author's boss is quite the philistine to insist that everyone drink! I guess he never worked with Muslims, alcoholics, anyone with an allergy or a genetic alcohol sensitivity, or anyone taking medicines that impact the liver.

Chris2048 10y ago
> but you MUST provide EANABs What taught you this?
- samcheng 10y ago
  The RAs (upperclassmen) and Fellows (resident faculty) in an all-freshmen dorm at Stanford.

canistr 10y ago

This is also the reason why I tend to stay away from Meetups/Startup events/recruiting events/etc. They tend to devolve into awkward situations for people like myself who don't drink or don't want to waste time with the "oh really? you don't drink at all?" conversations. I'm not an alcoholic, but people consistently feel the need to dive into why I don't drink, choose not to, and have never had a drink. And as much as people here or anywhere may say that they either A) don't care whether I'm drinking or B) feel awkward around others who don't drink, the reality is that the culture is centred around whether you drink and how much.

cloudjacker 10y ago
People are curious because the answer to "why you don't drink" is usually a quite revealing fucked up reason. Prior alcoholism, court order, "yeast allergy". Its so RARELY because of the latest diet or preservation of your liver or religion that people are right often enough to consider it a red flag and want to know what fucked up reason you have.
- rimunroe 10y ago
  I think you are probably living in a bubble if you think that those reasons are rare. I'm in Boston (not the most diverse place) and I know a bunch of people in the local industry who don't drink for religious or dietary reasons. Moreover, two of the things you mentioned as being red flags (alcoholism and an allergy in scare quotes) aren't things I would ever consider red flags. If someone is an alcoholic and abstains from alcohol, that's probably a pretty good sign about the person! If someone claims a medical condition which prevents them from drinking, well, I'm not a doctor/health expert so I'm not going to judge that.
  - cloudjacker 10y ago
    I don't have a rebuttal, good observaton about me living in a bubble of upstanding intellectuals
- cmdrfred 10y ago

datruth29 10y ago

This behavior of someone taking offense to you not wanting to drink with them is something I've seen before. What's particularly infuriating about it is that you shouldn't need any particular reason not to drink. Whether it's because you're a recovering alcoholic, or you just don't feel like it, a simple "No thank you" should be enough. On a side note, I remember having a discussion with a coworker about after work drinks. She noted how sometimes people would be willing to stay and work more if they knew they were going out for drinks afterwards. I imagine the way alcohol can relive stress with immediacy can lead one to willingly work in more harsh conditions. Hell, I've stood extremely late several times just because I knew I can join up with friends later for a drink.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

throwaway2016a 10y ago

We had someone who came to work for us that told the whole company he was a recovered alcoholic and everyone was real nice about it. The bosses and co-workers in this story just sound like colossal jerks. I actually have an opposite problem, though. We stock the fridge with craft beer but since everyone is a health nut (I use it as a terms of endearment) no one wants beer at 6:00 so sometimes I end up being the only one and that feels awkward. But I've been at the office 11 hours, I want to treat myself. Also, I find the thought of Beer Pong at the office to be very alarming. Foosball, sure, but Beer Pong? What are we, Freshmen in college? But I'm in a East Coast office. We're annoyingly all business here. It is probably different elsewhere.

beamatronic 10y ago
The first time I experienced Beer Pong or Keg Stands was at a software company in the Bay Area edit: I didn't mind those at all. But I did not care for Pajama Day and the pressure to wear pajamas on Pajama Day
- highstep 10y ago
  thank you for reminding me why I love being a remote worker :)
ryandrake 10y ago
I don't think it matters what coast you're on. Beer Pong at the office is probably considered inappropriate in almost any work setting.
jqm 10y ago
Who wants to drink a beer that had a ball in it that had been rolling around on the floor? Beer pong is just dumb all the way around even as a freshman in college.
- jps359 10y ago
  Every single time I've played we filled the pong cups with water and have whatever you're drinking (beer, soda, cranberry juice) on the side. Whenever they sink a ball, just drink your own drink. I was under the impression most people played like this?

Apreche 10y ago

I'm not a sober alcoholic, I'm just a person that doesn't drink for a variety of reasons. I can tell you that this isn't just startups. It's our entire society. I work at a non-startup and there's a happy hour every Friday at the end of the day. Everyone else is VERY EXCITED for this Happy Hour. I'm still excited because we basically stop working, but not nearly as excited as everyone else. Even outside work, when I go to social gatherings, people are drinking. Drinking is the main attraction for most people. If I go to a meetup, I'm the only one who cares primarily about what the meetup is supposed to be about. Go to a concert, other people get drunk, I am the only one actually trying to enjoy the music. Even hanging with my friends watching a movie, I'm actually trying to pay attention to the movie, but for everyone else, they have to "enhance" the experience with some beverages. Go to any conference or convention? After-work party? These events are ALWAYS at bars. What am I supposed to do in a bar? It's the most uncomfortable place in the world to be for someone who doesn't drink. It's like someone who can't swim hanging out at the public pool. While not drinking makes social life, especially in NYC, a bit more difficult, I do not have the same experience as you. Nobody has ever been a dick to me about not drinking. They just accept it. I've had some people ask why, but that's fine. I'll just explain to them. I guess that might be more troubling if my reason was a past of alcoholism. I've never had anyone get mad or anything. So I think that aspect might just be an aspect of startup bro culture. Not that I needed another reason to never work for one.

draw_down 10y ago
Right, it's very strange to try to localize this to one industry, because drinking is the main way that adults socialize in society all over the world. I mean, I like it, so it's not a problem for me. But it is interesting how people minimize the dangers of it and exaggerate the problems of a much less harmful drug like cannabis.
Al-Khwarizmi 10y ago
What am I supposed to do in a bar? You can ask for a coffee, tea, a coke, alcohol-free beer, water, etc.
VLM 10y ago
"It's the most uncomfortable place in the world to be for someone who doesn't drink. It's like someone who can't swim hanging out at the public pool." No one can tell the difference between a rum and coke, and a coke. It works for me pretty well. We have some similar outlooks, and perhaps you'll find my sneaky idea to be useful. Its much easier to fake drinking than to fake swimming. I don't even have a variety of reasons not to drink. In the LSD community or whatever you want to call it there's a well known effect called the 50 trip limit or 100 trip limit or whatever number, after doing it 50 times you're either repeating because you never thought about it, or you're bored with the whole experience, or you're hopelessly addicted. Same with alcohol, at least for me. I've done it all, drank incredible amounts, stayed up all night, passed out, puked up gallons, made out, had all kinds of fascinating hangovers, its really an interesting, although fundamentally worthless, experience. I checked every square on the checklist. Once your inner completionist is satisfied, its really a very boring and unpleasant experience. And now that its boring, I just don't do it anymore. It isn't the kind of response that fits in 10 words or less at a bar. So I just order a coke and everyone assumes its a rum and coke.

mlvljr 10y ago

Finally an area where we Russians must have an advantage, mua-ha-ha!!

astazangasta 10y ago

This seems to me a problem with an infantile culture, and not alcohol per se. The founder in the anecdote is obviously a person of poor judgment, unable to empathize, egotistical. This kind of enfant terrible is worshipped and celebrated by SV culture, given power, their fits and tantrums indulged and even encouraged as part of their mystique of genius, their disruptive zero-fucks-given. This problem runs deep; alcohol is only a smidgeon of it.

noarchy 10y ago

Should it be seen as a red flag when you're given a tour of the office (maybe during an interview process) and they make it a point to show your the beer fridge? My anecdotes aren't data, of course, but every time I've had that kind of experience, I've discovered that there's an implicit expectation that you'll stay at work later and drink said beer.

Chris2048 10y ago
A red flag of what kind of harm exactly?
- noarchy 10y ago
  I was hinting at that towards the end of my post: the idea that you're expected to drink it if it is offered, particularly after work hours are over. Not all of us fancy sticking around at the end of the day.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    Doesn't seems too harmful to me. A corp that wants to milk people of overtime are not likely to want them drinking a lot, especially for dev.
    - noarchy 10y ago
      >Doesn't seems too harmful to me. A corp that wants to milk people of overtime are not likely to want them drinking a lot, especially for dev. Then you may not have seen as much of this phenomenon as others of us. There are definitely companies encouraging on-site drinking.
      - Chris2048 10y ago
        Do those same companies pressure overtime work?
        10y ago

mst 10y ago

Things I enjoy doing: When there's some sort of thing where there's free alcohol, and somebody says they don't drink, interrupt before somebody can ask an intrusive question with "excellent, more for me then" and if possible clinking my glass with theirs. Usually spikes (pun absolutely intended) any issue before it starts.

chrisp_dc 10y ago

I'm not sure it is just startups. I think larger/more established companies fit into this too, but they may just be emulating hip startups. I work at a 100-500 person company. I do not attend most company events because of the amount of drinking. I hate meeting with clients because the amount of drinking. As someone who used to regularly show up to work drunk, it's not a healthy atmosphere for me. However, I do feel an odd sense of loyalty because 2+ years ago they let me go to rehab instead of canning me.

aaroninsf 10y ago

Everyone knows the answer is _yes_ without clicking. The only qualification is to modify "startups" to "startup culture." Are there exceptions? Of course! But the prevailing culture enshrines and celebrates a lot of the worst aspects of being young, male, and competitive. It's absolutely non-unique in this respect, but honestly, there should be a much stronger countervailing voice flatly stating, _we can do and be better than this_.

Bartweiss 10y ago
The counterpoint is that it's still true if I modify "startup culture" to "culture". It may be more in-your-face when it's about colleagues, but drinking-as-socialization is an American (and European) pattern, not a startup one. It goes for college parties, it goes for dinner with clients at big companies, it goes for 4th of July barbecues, and it goes for fancy Sonoma Valley wine tastings. At a certain point it feels like pretense to blame it on startup culture - startup culture is largely an intensified, sped-up version of everyday culture, and everyday culture is plenty focused on drinking.
- aaroninsf 10y ago
  I disagree, though living in San Francisco it's hard to remember how unique and relatively narrow the cultural spectrum of this industry and place are. The marriage of drinking and and alpha dominance displays of all kinds, are in my life experience dominant elements in contemporary US culture; they are not even tolerated in some circles. In many places I have lived what they call 'nightlife' is strictly demarcated by space and time. I'd wager this is just one more place where the work / life distinction has become very blurred or has vanished entirely, around here. :/ In any event on the brighter side, we can look forward to the hangover!

hadtosay 10y ago

I don't drink now, and I like to say "It works out pretty good - when people drink, they get relaxed. And when they get relaxed, I get relaxed" It's worked well for me, ymmv.

grishas 10y ago

IMO, The tech industry has a huge alcohol problem in general. It's not uncommon for even largeish companies to have beer kegs and frequent happy hours. Just recently we had a team event that revolved around alcohol, a mixology class. Although attendance wasn't mandatory, it wasn't exactly optional either. So there was a lot of awkwardness considering a number of people on our team were non-drinking muslims, 1 person was pregnant, and several others just don't drink. This creates an exclusionary sort of culture, and as one of my coworkers said it "I don't really want to be forced to go to the bar with my middle aged male colleagues". If you think about it, it does seem a bit creepy. Other industries have moved on from this sort of model. Sure, there still can be alcohol at events and the occasional BBQ with beer or happy hour, but they have strict policies about returning to work after consuming alcohol, and alcohol is not the main focus of the event. I take full advantage of the beer keg at our office, but if it went away I certainly wouldn't be upset. I'd just do what I used to do, and go to the bar after work with coworkers who want to go.

fleitz 10y ago
I don't work at vegan companies, or non-profits, their cultures aren't compatible with me. However, I wouldn't go around saying they have a "smug problem" that's their culture and their welcome to it, the moment I want to work at those cultures I'll either accept the conflict or do as the Romans do. What is assholish is to insist that everyone else change what they enjoy just because you don't like it.
- cname 10y ago
  Who are you responding to? I can't see where anyone is insisting that everyone else should change.
  - fleitz 10y ago
    Generally when highlighting problems, you want them to change... I mean who is like "Oh you have a drinking problem, just keep drinking, it's fine, I dunno why I even brought it up" I've been around alcoholics, one night I bought a case of beer and had a couple beers while coding, then I got a talk from my girlfriend in AA about how drinking alone is a sign of alcoholism. Startups don't have a drinking problem, alcoholics have a self-control problem.

md224 10y ago

Hey 'dang, why is this so far down the front page? Is it because people flagged it? I feel like there's some very good discussion here. Edit: Uhh... I was downvoted for asking this? Depressing.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

mathattack 10y ago

That is a tremendously courageous post. Not many people can publicly discuss their addictions. I've worked at many places that have had a strong alcohol after work culture, but it's only recently that I've seen it in work hours. As someone who likes to drink, it hasn't bothered me, but I also don't want to be exclusive of people. Many people choose not to drink due to their religion or health goals, as well as addiction. I wish the world were a better place about this, but this is part of the background checking one needs to know about a new job. If you're worried about being able to take off to see your kid's play, you have to inquire if any of the senior execs have kids. If you are worried about age discrimination, you have to see if others with gray hair are thriving there. And if you're worried about an alcoholic culture, look for people who don't drink. This is very hard to bring up in an interview, but you can learn about culture via back channels. For what it's worth, when I went through periods of non-drinking, I would just tell people that I was training for a martial arts competition, and needed to keep my weight down.

mikeash 10y ago

My own experience (and I won't claim this is necessarily representative) is that drinking is a big part of it, but nobody will care at all if you refrain. Asking for water or soda instead of alcohol will barely get a second glance. I think the title of this article would be better written as "Do startups have an asshole problem?" It just so happened that the asshole problem manifested in terms of alcohol because that's where the author was set up to come into conflict with the assholes. You could easily have the same sort of experience as a vegetarian in a company that revolved around barbecues and steak. That wouldn't mean startups have a "meat problem," but that they have an asshole problem that manifests in terms of meat because that's where you're in conflict. Other possibilities include smartphone ownership, hobbies, and political affiliation. Alcohol is certainly an interesting case because it's one of the few drugs that's legal, socially acceptable, and extremely commonly used. The only other one I can think of is caffeine, and even there we tend to go out of our way to make non-caffeinated equivalents available. But it seems to me that hassling people because they don't drink is just a symptom of a larger problem, which is that there are assholes in power, and one of the things assholes do is hassle people who are different.

danesparza 10y ago
+1 for "Do startups have an asshole problem?". Not because I think that most engineers at startups are assholes (quite the contrary), but because I think that puts the content of the article more succinctly. If this were me, the next morning I'd be either a.) Talking with HR, or (more likely) b.) looking for another job. Life is too short to have to deal with assholes.
lj3 10y ago
> I think the title of this article would be better written as "Do startups have an asshole problem?" It just so happened that the asshole problem manifested in terms of alcohol because that's where the author was set up to come into conflict with the assholes. I think startups may have an asshole problem as well, but that's not the context I got from the article. Startups have a much larger problem and that is the insistence that your job is a lifestyle, a culture. It's not enough to show up and do your job well and get along with everybody. You have to fit in as well. If you don't, it affects your future career prospects. Drinking is the norm. It's expected, along with wearing certain clothes, using certain tech stacks and having certain political opinions. There are a multitude of ways not to fit in. Alcohol is just one of them.

cogentleman 10y ago

I am 23, work at a startup, and also never drink, but definitely disagree with the implications of this post. Startups don't have any sort of particularly entrenched alcohol culture in the US- everyone does. And it's not really a problem, either. You can't ask for planet earth to be a safe space so you never get tempted by your booze urges again, just continue refusing, it's not something that can- or should- go away entirely.

flatpointer23 10y ago
There is a big difference between work being a safe space where no one drinks, and one where your boss berates you harshly for not drinking. The article depicts the latter situation. I drink; I don't care if people don't drink. I would never, ever respond to someone asking for water the way this writer's boss did. The boss acts as though he has been personally insulted. That's garbage.

ChemicalWarfare 10y ago

My take on this is sharing a drink is one of the major (if not THE major) ways of socializing in our culture. So I can totally understand the INITIAL knee-jerk reaction when someone refuses to drink with 'the team' as this might be seen as a refusal to socialize. Although if someone politely refuses to drink, it's really none of my business why. I for example wouldn't drink [much lol] before a heavy squat day but I totally don't want to start explaining/justifying this to someone who never lifted anything heavier than a pint.

everyone 10y ago

I think startups* have a bullshit enforced 'fun' problem in general. Whats fun for the founders may not be fun for me. Its still a job, I'd rather put that wasted money into higher salaries. Thats how IBM do it, their offices are crap and have shitty bare bone facilities but they pay well, you can buy whatever whimsical crap you want on your own dime. *At least the stereotypical silicon valley style ones

Avshalom 10y ago
It's part of convincing people they don't need money or a life outside of work. "sure we're paying you market rate for a 40 an hour worker and sure you're here 100hrs a week but why would you go home anyway we can get drunk here in the three hours a week we don't expect you to work"
mathattack 10y ago
I'm not sure I agree on IBM. I heard horror stories from folks at Watson, supposedly their big future money maker, complaining that they couldn't hire competitively due to salaries and work environment. In NYC they're around the corner from companies like Google which manage to pay people well, and have all the perks. Of course I agree - show me the money. But not everyone else thinks that way.

joesmo 10y ago

In my experience working in the Bay Area, this is hardly limited to startups. I worked at over a dozen places if not more, from startups to the giant technology companies, and all but one had massive amounts of alcohol on premises and drank in the office. I've been offered drink in interviews that to me said implicitly: either drink this or you're definitely not getting the job. I've seen coworkers leave work drunk and drive. I've had friends who are recovering from cancer and shouldn't be drinking admit to me that they felt pressured. It's not an issue of whether there is a drinking problem, but how big is the drinking problem? In my experience, it's everywhere, at least in the Bay Area. I'm not sure about other areas, but I doubt they're much different. It's hardly a wonder that frat culture and brogrammers exist with this amount of drinking, nor is it a wonder that so many things are built to sub par standards, often by sub par people. It really wouldn't be that big of a deal if people were mature and tolerant of others who don't drink, not like the asshole bosses described in the article. There is a wide variety of factors why one might not drink, many of which one may not want to share: alcoholism, religion, health, doesn't like the taste, doesn't want to get retarded, needs to drive after, still needs to do work (yes this comes up often), etc. Especially for recovering alcoholics, no job is worth drinking over. Stupid assholes in charge, don't understand that and then they wonder why their company is failing when they're doing their best to keep away qualified workers.

placeybordeaux 10y ago

>We began placing orders for the family style meal, when my boss suddenly announced to the room that I wouldn’t be eating meat. People began to chuckle, saying things like, “How can you be in Argentina and not try the meat!?” “You’re not going to try the beef? You don’t know what you’re missing!” Then, my boss added, “Yeah, she doesn’t drink either. I mean, what the fuck is wrong with her?” Several people laughed alongside my boss. That is the most important part of the article. Your boss is a dick.

teddyh 10y ago

See also: Our Culture of Exclusion from 2012. Originally at (http://old.ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/ http://old.ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/), but the author has removed it. There exists a copy here (https://gist.github.com/jseifer/2314204 https://gist.github.com/jseifer/2314204) with all references to alcohol replaced with “meat”, but you can read it and get the general gist, anyway.

teddyh 10y ago
Update: Found an available copy on the Internet Archive here: https://web.archive.org/web/20130808111450/http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130808111450/http://ryanfunduk...

King-Aaron 10y ago

One glass of Champagne, hold the phone, this is a major problem! Or it's one person who's personal aversion to drinking alcohol is skewing their perception. It all just makes me laugh, because when they mentioned Boulder, I instantly thought of the Boulder here in Western Australia... Which is a place that basically operates around the local pubs, haha.

eshwar 10y ago

People have been having drinking problems since ages. Why put it down to startups?

gshulegaard 10y ago

I feel like the author extrapolates her anecdotal experience in a dishonest way. First, as others have said, this isn't so much a drinking problem as often a culture problem ("asshole problem"). The first "start-up" I worked for didn't allow alcohol in the office, period. Second, as a 24 year old now 3 years in the professional world and two jobs (so limited exposure), I can honestly say I have never been pressured to drink or go drinking at either of the start ups I have worked at (thus far). In college I joined a fraternity so I'd like to think I have seen first hand what that looks like. I don't want to belittle the discussion about the bigger picture issues of start-up culture (as well as the bigger picture benefits), but the author here seems like she had a bad _work_ experience that just happened to be at a start-up and now has a chip on her shoulder when it comes to _all_ startups.