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I agree. The primary component of that "Other Chemicals" are surfactants. Surfactants, such as (POEA used in roundup) are known skin irritants. They are used t

by searine 10y ago

I agree. The primary component of that "Other Chemicals" are surfactants. Surfactants, such as (POEA used in roundup) are known skin irritants. They are used to help absorption of glyphosate in plants. Skin irritation is a very well characterized reaction to contact with any kind of surfactant.

pbhjpbhj 10y ago
You appear to be making a false equivocation, stating that Monsanto's Roundup is safe because glyphosate is safe. On the other hand there are lots of studies showing that Roundup appears to cause health problems, which are likely to be based on the additives. The study from the University of Caen: >POEA was recognized as a common inert ingredient in herbicides in the 1980s, when researchers linked it to a group of poisonings in Japan. Doctors there examined patients who drank Roundup, either intentionally or accidentally, and determined that their sicknesses and deaths were due to POEA, not glyphosate. (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/weed-whacking-herbicide-p/; http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/weed-whacking-herb... cf http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx800218n http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx800218n, http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx200072k http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx200072k) // So presumably you consider POEA to be completely safe as you said Roundup is safe and that, what, the medical authorities reported of here are either misreported or mistaken?
- searine 10y ago
  See the following review : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15862083 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15862083 "There is insufficient evidence to conclude that glyphosate preparations containing POEA are more toxic than those containing alternative surfactants" Surfactants, in general, are toxic. There is nothing special about POEA. Used properly, surfactants can be of good use and result in safe improvement of agriculture.
  - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
    >Surfactants, in general, are toxic. // But you said, did you not, that Roundup - which is about 50% surfactants - was safe, safe to drink even. You compared it to drinking coffee IIRC. How is Roundup not toxic then?
    - danielweber 10y ago
      The trace amounts of roundup left on food crops is below any measured harm level. People who work with it in fields should be careful. Consumers have a thousand other things more dangerous to worry about.
    - searine 10y ago
      >surfactants were safe, Safe when used properly. >safe to drink even. Never said that.
      - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
        >"All studies thus far point to roundup/glyphosate being incredibly safe." (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715481, searine) FWIW the context was ability to harm humans in any way; you were responding to a person saying they'd been given a rash after using Roundup. >>"A good portion of which can do serious harm to life. Therefore "unknown" is the issue." (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715508, goda90) >"Your daily coffee is probably an order of magnitude more carcinogenic than any glyphosate/roundup exposure." (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715557, searine) Which I'll accept was not quite what I thought you'd said. Will you admit that you've claimed roundup to be "incredibly safe"? Also that in response to someone claiming it was harmful that your response, in context, suggested that coffee was more harmful?
        vonmoltke 10y ago
        > Also that in response to someone claiming it was harmful that your response, in context, suggested that coffee was more harmful? He didn't say "more harmful", he said "more carcinogenic". That is a very specific form of harm.
- SigmundA 10y ago
  It's safe enough to be used in hand-degreaser, hair coloring and toilet bowl cleaners. Throwing around the term "safe" is not really helpful. Safe to handle is different than safe to drink and the truth is much more complicated than that. Nearly everything is "safe" or "toxic" the difference is in the quantity that makes it into our body.

by searine 10y ago

pbhjpbhj 10y ago

You appear to be making a false equivocation, stating that Monsanto's Roundup is safe because glyphosate is safe. On the other hand there are lots of studies showing that Roundup appears to cause health problems, which are likely to be based on the additives. The study from the University of Caen: >POEA was recognized as a common inert ingredient in herbicides in the 1980s, when researchers linked it to a group of poisonings in Japan. Doctors there examined patients who drank Roundup, either intentionally or accidentally, and determined that their sicknesses and deaths were due to POEA, not glyphosate. (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/weed-whacking-herbicide-p/; http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/weed-whacking-herb... cf http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx800218n http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx800218n, http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx200072k http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx200072k) // So presumably you consider POEA to be completely safe as you said Roundup is safe and that, what, the medical authorities reported of here are either misreported or mistaken?

searine 10y ago
See the following review : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15862083 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15862083 "There is insufficient evidence to conclude that glyphosate preparations containing POEA are more toxic than those containing alternative surfactants" Surfactants, in general, are toxic. There is nothing special about POEA. Used properly, surfactants can be of good use and result in safe improvement of agriculture.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  >Surfactants, in general, are toxic. // But you said, did you not, that Roundup - which is about 50% surfactants - was safe, safe to drink even. You compared it to drinking coffee IIRC. How is Roundup not toxic then?
  - danielweber 10y ago
    The trace amounts of roundup left on food crops is below any measured harm level. People who work with it in fields should be careful. Consumers have a thousand other things more dangerous to worry about.
  - searine 10y ago
    >surfactants were safe, Safe when used properly. >safe to drink even. Never said that.
    - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
      >"All studies thus far point to roundup/glyphosate being incredibly safe." (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715481, searine) FWIW the context was ability to harm humans in any way; you were responding to a person saying they'd been given a rash after using Roundup. >>"A good portion of which can do serious harm to life. Therefore "unknown" is the issue." (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715508, goda90) >"Your daily coffee is probably an order of magnitude more carcinogenic than any glyphosate/roundup exposure." (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715557, searine) Which I'll accept was not quite what I thought you'd said. Will you admit that you've claimed roundup to be "incredibly safe"? Also that in response to someone claiming it was harmful that your response, in context, suggested that coffee was more harmful?
      - vonmoltke 10y ago
        > Also that in response to someone claiming it was harmful that your response, in context, suggested that coffee was more harmful? He didn't say "more harmful", he said "more carcinogenic". That is a very specific form of harm.
SigmundA 10y ago
It's safe enough to be used in hand-degreaser, hair coloring and toilet bowl cleaners. Throwing around the term "safe" is not really helpful. Safe to handle is different than safe to drink and the truth is much more complicated than that. Nearly everything is "safe" or "toxic" the difference is in the quantity that makes it into our body.