5 ms·

Someone is lying about electric cars on the Internet

70 points by api 11y ago

barney54 11y ago
Electric cars still use a lot of copper... http://jalopnik.com/ever-wondered-how-much-copper-goes-into-electric-cars-1692424366 http://jalopnik.com/ever-wondered-how-much-copper-goes-into-...
- Faaak 11y ago
  Copper is recyclable, Fuel is not…
- Retric 11y ago
  Normal cars also have over 55 lb of copper, which is a lot of copper. Worldwide copper production is 18,500,000 tonnes or ~6 pounds per person per year. Which is why recycling is so important.
ChuckMcM 11y ago
Interesting, I felt like this was a recursive joke. Show the mine for nearly all the worlds production of lithium and then show a oil sands derrick which can't provide enough gas and oil for the cars in the state of Maine. Not that mining for Lithium could be done "better" but that the article was a poorly articulated argument for how electric cars are either 'as bad' or 'worse' than petrol cars.
- astrodust 11y ago
  One picture has trees in it ergo oil is good for the environment? The whole thing rings bullshit alarms.
jernfrost 11y ago
Kudos to the author for trying to set the record straight. As an EV enthusiasts who has tried to read up a lot about this stuff, it is depressing to see the sheer amount of propaganda and misinformation being spread about electric cars. According to the fossil fuel fan club, the electricity going into your EV is somehow always from coal. Of course all the other electricity not used for electric cars is of course pure as newly fallen snow. Of course they fail to mention that a lot of power is simply wasted at night anyway. E.g. in Ontario you could charge your EV at night without requiring any increase in electricity production. Nor do they mention the fact that oil refining requires a huge amount of electricity. In fact it requires so much electricity, that you could have use that same electricity to drive an EV the same distance as gasoline car would drive with the gasoline refined using that electricity. But really I think what it comes down to is that people like to lie to themselves. They like to invent little lies that will justify the actions they already made. They want to drive that gas-guzzler and so they look for fact that will support that decision.
- seanp2k2 11y ago
  Here's a comparison by emissions: http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green 2015 US electricity generation by source: ( https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3 ) Coal = 33% Natural gas = 33% Nuclear = 20% Hydropower = 6% Other renewables = 7% Biomass = 1.6% Geothermal = 0.4% Solar = 0.6% Wind = 4.7% Petroleum = 1% Other gases = <1% I've written before about the higher weight of EVs (a Tesla S weighs ~4600-~4900# vs some 80s cars weighing under 2000 or much lighter modern cars), drag coefficients (tesla is better but there have been other vehicles close even a decade or two ago), recycling of batteries, etc. The article I linked puts the EV equivalent mileage in the low 40s, which is the same as we can get with efficient ICE vehicles already. I'm not saying that their math is perfect and their picture complete (e.g. You also need electricity to make coal mining equipment and diesel to power oil tankers) but it looks like they did quite a bit of research and found that it's roughly the same right now. I'm personally annoyed at all of the people thinking they're totally saving the environment by driving their Prius / Tesla / Leaf / whatever. I think it's ignorance at best and greenwashing a lot of the time. The gist is that driving is bad for the environment regardless of what your car runs on. Bicycles or walking or living closer to the things you do every day is a better idea, and I wish more people would promote that vs ~don't change your habits, just buy a new car and Earth will be saved.
  - Finnucane 11y ago
    That may be true, but those numbers surely aren't the only issues with oil dependency. Much of our current domestic gas & oil production depends on fracking, and a lot of oil is produced globally in regions where oil money supports autocratic regimes. Where I live, I feel fortunate that work is only a 20 min. bike ride away. Surely a lot of people do want to rely on their cars less--the most in-demand neighborhoods around here for housing are the ones with the best public transit access, but of course that means there's not enough investment in improving access in other areas. Part of that though is less about the environment than the fact that traffic is unbearable.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Small quibble: Coal is down to 28% percent of US electrical generation, and will continue to be crowded out by solar, wind, and natural gas. Every one of the largest coal mining companies in the US are in bankruptcy. 98% of generation this year coming online is solar and wind. Coal will be completely removed from generation in 5-10 years; natural gas in 15. You are helping save the world by buying a Tesla; those 20-30% margins on the Model S and X are paying for the Supercharger network (which is required for mass adoption of EVs) and the Gigafactory (required to build out ~50GW/year of energy storage for homes, utilities, and of course, vehicles). Cars are not going away any time soon. Therefore, its best to make every effort to make them as clean as possible.
webwielder2 11y ago
Bottom line is we're always going to be digging something out of the ground. The less hellish we can make those places the better, regardless of which element it is. Or, you know, asteroids.
MrQuincle 11y ago
I would have loved to see some pictures of actual lithium mining in the Salar de Uyuni. That's because although this area is called dead by the author, it is one of the most beautiful places in the world.
- Dylan16807 11y ago
  The lithium drying pools are rather pretty too.
jacob019 11y ago
I just bought a Nissan Leaf. The decision had nothing to do with the environment, I did it for the convenience of not having to go to the gas station or get oil changes any more. After about a month, I am in love with the car. It's comfortable, amazingly quiet, and surprisingly powerful. The acceleration is better than any other car that I've driven, it's super responsive. It was also very inexpensive. I think most consumers are like me and will make the EV decision based on economics rather than environmental concerns.
- Avshalom 11y ago
  Right I mean I'm occasionally fairly harsh on EVs because of what I see as people waving off entirely reasonable problems with charging the damn things but I am actually very pro-EV. Electric motors are just very compelling aside from any environmental reasons. There's a reason the auto industry has been re-inventing the electric car every decade for a century.
- ssahoo 11y ago
  A friend of mine just refused to pick me up from Airport, because his Nissan leaf wouldn't be able to survive 80 miles both ways and there is no charging station in between.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Which airport?
tn13 11y ago
Honestly these lies do not matter. Let people buy what they want without government using our money to subsidize anything. In the long term facts win because they are self evident. I find it disgusting that rich people get $8K per Tesla.
seanp2k2 11y ago
Another study which compares particulate emissions on EVs: http://jalopnik.com/electric-and-hybrid-cars-might-produce-as-many-toxins-a-1775747577 http://jalopnik.com/electric-and-hybrid-cars-might-produce-a... TL;DR EVs are worse there since they weigh, on average, 24% more.

70 points by api 11y ago

Electric cars still use a lot of copper... http://jalopnik.com/ever-wondered-how-much-copper-goes-into-electric-cars-1692424366 http://jalopnik.com/ever-wondered-how-much-copper-goes-into-...

Faaak 11y ago
Copper is recyclable, Fuel is not…
Retric 11y ago
Normal cars also have over 55 lb of copper, which is a lot of copper. Worldwide copper production is 18,500,000 tonnes or ~6 pounds per person per year. Which is why recycling is so important.

ChuckMcM 11y ago

Interesting, I felt like this was a recursive joke. Show the mine for nearly all the worlds production of lithium and then show a oil sands derrick which can't provide enough gas and oil for the cars in the state of Maine. Not that mining for Lithium could be done "better" but that the article was a poorly articulated argument for how electric cars are either 'as bad' or 'worse' than petrol cars.

astrodust 11y ago
One picture has trees in it ergo oil is good for the environment? The whole thing rings bullshit alarms.

jernfrost 11y ago

Kudos to the author for trying to set the record straight. As an EV enthusiasts who has tried to read up a lot about this stuff, it is depressing to see the sheer amount of propaganda and misinformation being spread about electric cars. According to the fossil fuel fan club, the electricity going into your EV is somehow always from coal. Of course all the other electricity not used for electric cars is of course pure as newly fallen snow. Of course they fail to mention that a lot of power is simply wasted at night anyway. E.g. in Ontario you could charge your EV at night without requiring any increase in electricity production. Nor do they mention the fact that oil refining requires a huge amount of electricity. In fact it requires so much electricity, that you could have use that same electricity to drive an EV the same distance as gasoline car would drive with the gasoline refined using that electricity. But really I think what it comes down to is that people like to lie to themselves. They like to invent little lies that will justify the actions they already made. They want to drive that gas-guzzler and so they look for fact that will support that decision.

seanp2k2 11y ago
Here's a comparison by emissions: http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green 2015 US electricity generation by source: ( https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3 ) Coal = 33% Natural gas = 33% Nuclear = 20% Hydropower = 6% Other renewables = 7% Biomass = 1.6% Geothermal = 0.4% Solar = 0.6% Wind = 4.7% Petroleum = 1% Other gases = <1% I've written before about the higher weight of EVs (a Tesla S weighs ~4600-~4900# vs some 80s cars weighing under 2000 or much lighter modern cars), drag coefficients (tesla is better but there have been other vehicles close even a decade or two ago), recycling of batteries, etc. The article I linked puts the EV equivalent mileage in the low 40s, which is the same as we can get with efficient ICE vehicles already. I'm not saying that their math is perfect and their picture complete (e.g. You also need electricity to make coal mining equipment and diesel to power oil tankers) but it looks like they did quite a bit of research and found that it's roughly the same right now. I'm personally annoyed at all of the people thinking they're totally saving the environment by driving their Prius / Tesla / Leaf / whatever. I think it's ignorance at best and greenwashing a lot of the time. The gist is that driving is bad for the environment regardless of what your car runs on. Bicycles or walking or living closer to the things you do every day is a better idea, and I wish more people would promote that vs ~don't change your habits, just buy a new car and Earth will be saved.
- Finnucane 11y ago
  That may be true, but those numbers surely aren't the only issues with oil dependency. Much of our current domestic gas & oil production depends on fracking, and a lot of oil is produced globally in regions where oil money supports autocratic regimes. Where I live, I feel fortunate that work is only a 20 min. bike ride away. Surely a lot of people do want to rely on their cars less--the most in-demand neighborhoods around here for housing are the ones with the best public transit access, but of course that means there's not enough investment in improving access in other areas. Part of that though is less about the environment than the fact that traffic is unbearable.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Small quibble: Coal is down to 28% percent of US electrical generation, and will continue to be crowded out by solar, wind, and natural gas. Every one of the largest coal mining companies in the US are in bankruptcy. 98% of generation this year coming online is solar and wind. Coal will be completely removed from generation in 5-10 years; natural gas in 15. You are helping save the world by buying a Tesla; those 20-30% margins on the Model S and X are paying for the Supercharger network (which is required for mass adoption of EVs) and the Gigafactory (required to build out ~50GW/year of energy storage for homes, utilities, and of course, vehicles). Cars are not going away any time soon. Therefore, its best to make every effort to make them as clean as possible.

webwielder2 11y ago

Bottom line is we're always going to be digging something out of the ground. The less hellish we can make those places the better, regardless of which element it is. Or, you know, asteroids.

MrQuincle 11y ago

I would have loved to see some pictures of actual lithium mining in the Salar de Uyuni. That's because although this area is called dead by the author, it is one of the most beautiful places in the world.

Dylan16807 11y ago
The lithium drying pools are rather pretty too.

jacob019 11y ago

I just bought a Nissan Leaf. The decision had nothing to do with the environment, I did it for the convenience of not having to go to the gas station or get oil changes any more. After about a month, I am in love with the car. It's comfortable, amazingly quiet, and surprisingly powerful. The acceleration is better than any other car that I've driven, it's super responsive. It was also very inexpensive. I think most consumers are like me and will make the EV decision based on economics rather than environmental concerns.

Avshalom 11y ago
Right I mean I'm occasionally fairly harsh on EVs because of what I see as people waving off entirely reasonable problems with charging the damn things but I am actually very pro-EV. Electric motors are just very compelling aside from any environmental reasons. There's a reason the auto industry has been re-inventing the electric car every decade for a century.
ssahoo 11y ago
A friend of mine just refused to pick me up from Airport, because his Nissan leaf wouldn't be able to survive 80 miles both ways and there is no charging station in between.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Which airport?

tn13 11y ago

Honestly these lies do not matter. Let people buy what they want without government using our money to subsidize anything. In the long term facts win because they are self evident. I find it disgusting that rich people get $8K per Tesla.

seanp2k2 11y ago

Another study which compares particulate emissions on EVs: http://jalopnik.com/electric-and-hybrid-cars-might-produce-as-many-toxins-a-1775747577 http://jalopnik.com/electric-and-hybrid-cars-might-produce-a... TL;DR EVs are worse there since they weigh, on average, 24% more.