15 ms·
Economist Removed from Plane for Algebra
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- kercker 11y agoWhen I clicked the Facebook link provided by this page, I got "Sorry, this content isn't available right now. The link you followed may have expired, or the page may only be visible to an audience you're not in." Why would Guido Menzio delete this post?
- Zuider 11y agoIt is likely that he deleted his Facebook post because he mentions wearing a keffiyeh, or 'Yasser Arafat scarf' as he calls it. It is far more plausible that this is what drew suspicion than his scribbling algebraic symbols on a page. http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4.jpg http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4...
- yoo1I 11y agoUhm, that's not a 'Yasser Arafat scarf' in that picture, that's a knitted scarf ...
- Zuider 11y agoMaybe, but that is what he called it himself on facebook, and it has the distinctive keffiyeh chequered pattern and he wears it like a keffiyeh.
- GabrielF00 11y agoI don't see that at all. He's wearing it around his neck, not on his head. The material is completely different. The pattern is also different.
- Zuider 11y agoThe keffiyeh is versatile. It can also be worn around the neck, tucked into the jacket. This way of wearing it became a fashion in the West in the mid to late '80s.
- ZoFreX 11y ago> it has the distinctive keffiyeh chequered pattern No, it has the equally distinctive and extremely popular and well-known "Houndstooth" pattern.
- Zuider 11y agoThe houndstooth pattern is a form of check. Wikipedia entry for Houndstooth pattern: "Houndstooth, hounds tooth check or hound's tooth (and similar spellings), also known as dogstooth, dogtooth, dog's tooth, or pied-de-poule, is a duotone textile pattern characterized by broken checks or abstract four-pointed shapes, often in black and white, although other colours are used." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houndstooth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houndstooth Wikipedia entry for Check - Use in fabrics: "Check-patterned fabrics display bands in two or more colours in woven cloth." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check_%28pattern%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check_%28pattern%29 Wikipedia, definition of keffiyeh: "Its distinctive standard woven checkered pattern may have originated in an ancient Mesopotamian representation of either fishing nets or ears of grain,[2] but the true origin of the pattern remains unknown." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keffiyeh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keffiyeh
- DominikPeters 11y agoProbably the post is only visible to his FB friends.
- jackgavigan 11y agoWell, at least he wasn't arrested and barred from flying: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/16/southwest-airlines-man-removed-flight-arabic http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/16/southwest-air... These sort of events really highlight how dangerous the combination of stupidity and fear is.
- CPLX 11y agoYes, here's an excellent video outlining the key factors at work: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YwZ0ZUy7P3E https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YwZ0ZUy7P3E
- gaius 11y agoAnd http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/easyjet-flight-halted-when-woman-notices-is-messages-on-mans-phone/news-story/012d3f5aa5331df6a72ad824505bd991 http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/easyj... All 3 cases are women reporting men, which is interesting.
- hackuser 11y ago> All 3 cases are women reporting men, which is interesting. It's meaningless; the sample is far too small and also not representative of the population of such reports.
- pdkl95 11y agoA better explanation, that highlights how it isn't just "stupidity", but the combination of stupidity and ambition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmZOZjHjT5E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmZOZjHjT5E
- B1FF_PSUVM 11y ago> how dangerous the combination of stupidity and fear is Not dangerous at all, it's really quite convenient. Can't have all those people sloshing around unsupervised, or even apparently unsupervised. Gotta show 'em.
- 11y ago
- cperciva 11y agoAnd it wasn't even an algebraic geometer talking about "blowing up points on a plane" this time! (Closer to home: My father had an interesting experience once at a chemistry conference when a member of the public heard that he was studying "free radials". Language is weird.)
- cnvogel 11y agoEven worse, he probably studied "free radicals"! (I suspect a typo in parent)
- eru 11y agoI heard this story about a mathematician that wanted to score points with the establishment during the cold war / hippie period. He annouced that he was studying how to "remove radicals".
- ikeboy 11y agoMath (particularly the axiom of choice) is known to be reactionary and evil: http://alexanderpruss.com/HOAX.pdf http://alexanderpruss.com/HOAX.pdf
- raverbashing 11y agoI'm not sure they changed the headline, but my first thought was "oh it's some kind of algebra that relates to geometry but outside of a plane?"
- auggierose 11y agoMost likely that woman had a schizophrenic panic attack.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- auggierose 11y agonot sure why all the downvotes. The stewardess asked her if she was too "sick" to continue the flight, so that might actually have been the cause: She noticed she is getting paranoid about the neighbour scribbling strange things, and leaves the flight. Now, the "officials" investigate the guy, just to be on the safe side. I don't think this scenario is less likely than assuming that the woman was really that "stupid" to behave that way.
- stupidcar 11y agoI find it deeply ironic that you're being downvoted for questioning the presumption that the woman was herself making stupid/racist presumptions. Everyone's got their favoured narratives, I guess, and get uncomfortable when they're challenged.
- slantaclaus 11y agoI agree. Stewardess strikes me as a threat to national security or at the very least her own passengers. How would she react during a real crisis??
- Arnt 11y agoSounds like airplane phobia... She was scared and grasped at the first straw that gave her a reason to.
- SixSigma 11y ago> Trump’s America is already here. It’s not yet in power though. Personally, I will fight back. grow up
- bryanlarsen 11y agoTrump is a symptom, not the cause.
- SixSigma 11y agoI think you mean "is the solution, not the problem"
- mcphage 11y agoAre you for real?
- SixSigma 11y ago“are you kidding me?”
- venomsnake 11y agoTrump supporters are real. Or he would not have gotten the nomination. Shockingly, some of them even post at hn.
- koolba 11y ago> Shockingly, some of them even post at hn. Why is that shocking? Given the scope of active users, I'd be surprised if you didn't find supporters of every major candidate.
- venomsnake 11y agoWritten text does not convey sarcasm and irony well. Observing the up and downvotes I get whenever I mention Trump - his support here is robust. Whether people like him, or there are people that are more annoyed from Trump's bashers than from Trump himself - I don't know.
- mariuolo 11y agoPerhaps we wouldn't be seeing this if she had paid more attention in school.
- blisterpeanuts 11y agoI'd like to see this story picked up and verified by a mainstream news organization. But assuming it's factual, why would a flight crew take seriously such a bizarre accusation? Surely they are trained to deal with this type of situation. The person who raised the alarm should be held to account, much as someone who pulls the fire alarm or calls the police for frivolous reasons can be fined.
- jpalomaki 11y agoIf you think about this on personal level it makes sense (IMO). Taking this kind of stuff seriously is always easier to explain later on that trying to justify why you did not take any action.
- rmsaksida 11y agoI agree. This sounds like bullshit, and the political commentary at the end doesn't help it at all.
- rmk2 11y agoThe article links to the Washington Post, though? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/ivy-league-economist-interrogated-for-doing-math-on-american-airlines-flight/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/iv...
- ptaipale 11y agoWashington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/ivy-league-economist-interrogated-for-doing-math-on-american-airlines-flight/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/iv...
- brainflake 11y agoWashington post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/ivy-league-economist-interrogated-for-doing-math-on-american-airlines-flight/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/iv...
- tuna-piano 11y agoHis picture of himself from his website. Guessing the scraggly beard + hair + math combo is what scared the passenger: http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4.jpg http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4...
- appleflaxen 11y agoI agree. He definitely looks like a terrorist. I guarantee you that if we waterboard him enough, he will tell us anything we want to hear about how his cell works. My guess is that he knows people that he'd even be willing to implicate in its operation.
- louithethrid 11y agoThat "I-know-how-a-terrorist"-looks like thing, is what kept the german RAF going strong for nearly twenty years. They just dressed up like buisness man and walked through every controll.
- davidgerard 11y agoI used to go to anti-Nazi demonstrations in a suit and tie with short hair. Everyone else on my side was scruffy anarchists and socialists. The police got quite confused.
- RobertKerans 11y ago"If you're going to say something radical, make sure you wear a suit"
- louithethrid 11y agoThe problem with stereo-types is- that anyone just similar looking goes in the "usual suspects bag". If some hacker would went on a automated killing spree- everyone beeing pale, having glasses and drinking too much coffee suddenly would be suspicious. Thats really troubling. How to solve this ? I mean, dirty-workaround-solve this, not wishfull thinking reeducate solve this. Some karma system, involving how much a person is socially connected, how much it contributed to society, how much it got planned, how much is at stake in its life? But however you refine that algorithm- you catch a lot of unwanted fish, and someone like mohamed atta slips right through. This is really tough. I guess the best indicator is how mono-thematic your life is. If all your searches, all your interests and all your communication partners are "themed" - you desserve some suspicion. He is a math-expert, get him.
- appleflaxen 11y agoTerrorists 1 Democracy 0
- raverbashing 11y agoTypical obnoxious neighbour, I might say Now any scribble is a "threat" and indication of something might be wrong? I better close my console window here as well Just as a reminder there are two types of fascists: fascists and anti-facists
- carlob 11y ago> Just as a reminder there are two types of fascists: fascists and anti-facists First of all this is the kind of shit fascists typically say. Secondly how does that even follow?!
- raverbashing 11y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory Google Image search Antifa for all the love and understanding
- wglb 11y agoOn the order of the DiHydrogen Monoxide scam: "algebra is used to make bombs".
- singold 11y agoIt seems algebra knows what economists do with math
- keithpeter 11y agoShades of John Dee "1555 28 May - John Dee imprisoned for heresy and for being a magician accused of 'calculating' as a form of magic" http://www.elizabethan-era.org.uk/john-dee.htm http://www.elizabethan-era.org.uk/john-dee.htm To be fair, the 'calculating' in question was casting horoscopes of the Monarch - which was regarded as a political thing to be doing in those days.
- mpnordland 11y agoStill not a good reason to imprison him.
- keithpeter 11y agoNot by today's standards no, but this was the 1500s. They saw casting the horoscope of the royals in the same way that we would view someone now who had inside knowledge of (say) a major development project in some part of a city and who used that inside knowledge to buy land cheap in order to speculate.
- minikites 11y ago>Mean world syndrome is a term coined by George Gerbner to describe a phenomenon whereby violence-related content of mass media makes viewers believe that the world is more dangerous than it actually is. This, combined with most people's statistical illiteracy about which risks actually affect them, is the root cause for a lot of problems I think.
- kleiba 11y agoI bet you he was using arabic numbers!
- Criticism123 11y agoHe deserved it for using a random incident to blame the candidate he doesn't like. He is the kind of the guy who would say "Anyone who disagrees with me is only doing it to piss me off! Differences of opinion are proof of evil!"
- mcherm 11y agoIt appears he did not make a public statement groundlessly tying Trump to this incident, but rather did so in a Facebook post (private communication to friends). I find that far less objectionable. Also, no statement about a politician rises to the level of "deserving" to be removed from a plane.
- damptowel 11y agoI was hoping they would have dumped him mid flight. Would've served him right... two timing basterds.
- shitgoose 11y ago"Trump’s America is already here" ahem... Isn't it still Obama's America? Wait till November to accuse future Trump's presidency of your past misfortunes.
- diego_moita 11y agoMy Latino version of what "Trumpism" means: anything that looks foreign is scary.
- shitgoose 11y agoOne more time - what Trump has to do with actions of government officials, guided by current administration of President Barak Obama?
- Zuider 11y agoThe article glosses over an important detail. It is far more likely that he raised suspicion by wearing a keffiyeh, or 'Yasser Arafat scarf', as he calls it on his Facebook thread concerning the issue. The Palestinian Liberation Organization is still on the proscribed terrorist list. Edit: See tuna-piano's comment below where he links a picture of Guido Menzio wearing a scraggly beard and keffiyeh combo. http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4.jpg http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~gmenzio/index_files/self4... Edit: Guido Menzio has since deleted, or made inaccessible to the general public the relevant Facebook page.
- datashovel 11y agoDo you think this would somehow exonerate the "concerned citizen"?
- Zuider 11y agoIt would certainly exonerate the "concerned citizen" from the accusation that they regarded writing mathematical symbols on a page as a terrorist act.
- 2muchcoffeeman 11y agoThe linked Washington Post story specifically says the concerned passenger notified staff because of the math she saw.
- Zuider 11y agoThe identity of the passenger has been kept secret for privacy reasons. For that reason, she could not be contacted to confirm or deny Menzio's claim. All we have so far are Menzio's own words, possibly further distorted by the Washington Post, and his characterization of what others told him. If she did come forward, I suspect that we would get a more nuanced and complete explanation for why she became suspicious of Menzio. There are already clues in Menzio's own account where he notes that he maintained a dismissive and non-committal attitude to her attempts at conversation, and remained locked with 'laser like' focus on his writing. In short, he was behaving in a strange and hostile manner.
- sehugg 11y agoI'm worried that a flight crew responsible for moving a million-lb plane safely through the air isn't allowed (or is unwilling) to perform basic triage on accusations made by terrified passengers.
- JoeAltmaier 11y agoWhat 'accusation'? He was writing. It is a paranoid world we're in, and that is the point of the OP.
- TillE 11y agoHas there been a single useful observation of an actual incident by passengers, since Richard Reid (who was blatantly attempting to light something on fire)? Any arrests, charges? I struggle to understand why vague accusations of "suspicious behavior" are treated this way, over and over again.
- kevinastone 11y agothe same reason that SWATing is so effective. The cost of in-action is perceived too great to ignore even the vaguest threat.
- BWStearns 11y agoI think the attempted underwear bomber was after Reid. Here's the thing though: if you're trying to set something on fire or storm the cockpit or some other actually undesired behavior, it's not going to be some routine in an airline manual that stops you. It's going to be all your seat neighbors who are going to physically stop you because you're obviously a threat. The real problem is these wildly unqualified citizen-Paul(ine)-Blarts who saw on an episode of Criminal Minds that looking up and left while writing non-ASCII characters is an indicator of terrorist intent. She essentially pulled the fire alarm on a bunch of people because she's an idiot. What she did is functionally no different than calling in a false report about some random passenger on a plane that's about to take off. She should have to pay a fine for all the time and resources she wasted with her little ruse (I'm sure she felt very clever when she conceived it). Imagine a Richard Reid scenario where some guy beats the piss out of his seat neighbor because he thinks he's trying to bomb the flight. If he's right, he's a hero (and he should be applauded for stopping a bombing). If he's wrong and the guy was just tying his shoes, he gets charged with assault. This is a good thing, because we don't want people seeing physical violence as a cost free option. Being too dumb to tell the difference between an episode of 24 and your boring ass day is not a tolerated excuse to physically assault people. It shouldn't be tolerated as a reason to call in false alarms either. I'm sick of stupid people being able to inflict massive amounts of inconvenience and even degrees of suffering with no consequences for being wrong. * I realize that stupid is perhaps an imprecise and mean choice of words, but I can't come up with a better explanation for adults who cannot appropriately assess the threat posed by a nerdy Italian guy writing in a notebook who doesn't want to talk to them. I get that calling people stupid isn't a way to make them smarter, and that it can have a negative developmental impact for younger kids to view things in a smart/stupid fixed-talent paradigm, but we need to somehow bring back some of the cultural rejection for acting like a goddamn idiot. I don't really care if she gets smarter (though that would be nice), I have lower aims. I want her to be afraid to be wrong because actions should have consequences. If there's no cost incurred to this person (actually, she'll probably be praised for her "vigilance" by people she respects) where do we draw the line?
- joesmo 11y agoThe stupidity in America never ceases to amaze.
- mineshaftgap 11y agoYou would be banned if you said that about any other country.
- datashovel 11y agoOn a more reflective / somber note. I am a huge fan of the idea of empowering all classes of people. So the fact that this lady was able to disrupt the flight is I think (big picture) a good thing. Instead of simply dismissing this person as ignorant, I hope folks on this forum will take a moment to reflect on the tragic state of the entire system. If we're going to enable / empower all classes of people we (those in a position to make a difference) need to do a better job of raising the bar, and helping all those in need to raise their own bar too.
- JoeAltmaier 11y agoNot such a fan of empowering idiots to cause serious, pointless obstruction for hundreds of people. There are just too many idiots.
- datashovel 11y agoIt's likely you were not among those this post was directed toward. Sorry for the confusion.
- ignoramceisblis 11y agoRather than confront the people who are describing the (negative) consequences of your way of thinking, you instead disregard their shared commentary as being off-topic. A class act. You hope your logic will live on, yet you choose to ignore its contradictions.
- datashovel 11y agoTo be honest, it is threads of comments like this that make me wish HN had a Mute or Block option. I apologize, but it's just not worth continuing this conversation because we are talking about completely different things.
- deoptimo 11y agoOn a less somber note, you are praising the empowerment of ignorant people to become secret informants on behalf of a security state with the power to disrupt the lives of others. This is a tried and proven path that many countries have followed and we all know where it leads.
- lovedj 11y agoIt’s a bit funny :)
- waynecochran 11y agoImagine what they would have done if he was doing Calculus?!
- Zuider 11y agoHe was.
- MaysonL 11y agoIf you haven't read it, find a copy of "Mr. Costello, Hero" by Theodore Sturgeon.
- m0llusk 11y agoIt was not algebra, but a differential equation. That is no excuse, but may help to explain the situation as those things can be pretty scary.
- jasonjei 11y agoYou still use Al-Gebra inside differential equations. There's no limit to how these things can converge.
- coldcode 11y agoThe word algebra comes from the Arabic word "al-jabr". Clearly the work of a terrorist.
- louithethrid 11y agoI know several people who get triggered by Calculus ;)
- dang 11y agoUrl changed from http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/05/economist-removed-from-plane-for-algebra.html http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/05/eco..., which points to this. We'll keep its more sensible title though.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- danielvf 11y agoIt's clear from the story that neither the stewardess, the pilot, nor the law enforcement agent thought he was an actual threat. I'm guessing that there is a rule that if a passenger reports a suspicious person, then the plane must be held and law enforcement must be notified. Fortunately, at that point common sense was allowed to take over, rather than spiraling into multiple agencies mindlessly following bad procedures.
- hackuser 11y ago> It's clear from the story that neither the stewardess, the pilot, nor the law enforcement agent thought he was an actual threat. I don't see that. Could you point out what makes you say that?
- epistasis 11y ago"The pilot seemed to be embarrassed" and "security deemed him to not be a 'credible threat'" were the parts that stood out to me.
- hackuser 11y agoThe former, and AFAICT the latter, occurred only after he was interviewed and showed them his document with the mathematics on it.
- ghayes 11y agoSure, but you'd imagine that if security personnel are called in, they are expected to spend at least a few minutes noting down what occurred in the incident. "They looked at the paper he was writing on" is very different from "interrogated him in a back room."
- hackuser 11y agoIIRC the story says he was taken off the plane, interviewed, and only after that did they look at the document.
- hackuser 11y agoWhat happens to people who aren't in the social class of Ivy League professors? Do they get off as easily? Do their stories get told? (Is this event any more offensive or ridiculous because the victim is an Ivy League economist?) What would a U.S. President with fascistic tendencies do with this kind of power over people's liberty?
- Gibbon1 11y ago> What would a U.S. President with fascistic tendencies do with this kind of power over people's liberty? We're about to find out.
- moioci 11y agoGod thing he didn't have a compass and protractor on him. Then he might have been charged with possessing weapons of math instruction.
- gus_massa 11y ago(I know this is a joke, but I have a related real story ...) One of my friends had a problem a few years ago because she had a compass in the carry on luggage. It has a sharp metal tip, so it's forbidden. She didn't have any problem, and she could put it in the main luggage. I think he protractors are completely safe, at lest the plastic protractors ...
- pcmaffey 11y agoThey should have just removed the scared passenger.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- kyrre 11y agoseems like this was handled well to me
- epsilon 11y agoTo be fair, I recall students who were legitimately terrorized by differential equations. The woman was undoubtedly unnerved by the terse response to her attempt to be sociable, having never encountered someone in the midst of mathing hard. Or perhaps she just feared the equation had a singular solution.
- payne92 11y agoIrony: Algebra (and zero!) invented by Arab / Islamic scholars.
- worg 11y agoMayans independently invented zero also.
- ptaipale 11y agoActually, no: zero was developed in India on the 5th century. Arab / Islamic scholars merely learned it from them. And algebra was developed by Greeks on 3rd century, although al-Khwārizmī developed it further (note btw that he was not an Arab but Persian, although he worked in Baghdad).
- belltaco 11y agoThey were actually invented by Indian/Hindu scholars. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hindu–Arabic_numeral_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hindu–Arabic_nu... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_algebra#Indian_algebra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_algebra#Indian_alge...
- JustinAiken 11y agoWell, I'm not one for no-fly lists... but as long as we have them, this lady belongs on it.
- Joof 11y agoI have a beard and do math on planes. I should be more careful...
- chanakya 11y agoCan't say I blame her - she could see he was using those Arabic numerals.
- informatimago 11y agoWhat surprizes me is that nobody is shaming the woman for not recognizing maths.
- newjersey 11y agoI'd imagine the authorities might give her an award with the "if you see something, say something" kind of rhetoric.
- dmix 11y agoYes, she did exactly what the authorities want people to do. Naturally, there will be ~99% false positives but it's worth the risks! I mean he could have been writing Arabic... the horror... Better safe than sanity.
- kpozin 11y agoOn a cross-country flight a couple of weeks ago, I decided to calculate the distance to the horizon using a pen, notepad, and the SatStat GPS app on my phone (to get the current altitude). That must have looked really suspicious.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- bitL 11y agoDid she fail her differential calculus and then got sick looking at some advanced stuff?
- spacehome 11y agoI don't get the slight on Trump. Seems like a non-sequitur.
- rainhacker 11y agoThough similar incidents have happened in other airlines as well - when I read this took place on an American Airlines flight, I recalled my experience with them. My flight was cancelled and everyone was standing in line to get rescheduled. When my turn in the line came the American Airlines official gave me a number and asked me to call on it to get help instead, he said it would be quicker. I obliged and stepped aside. I thought he'd say the same to the rest of the people in the line. But, that didn't happen. Instead, he continued helping people before me in the line. I called the number, the wait was too long and I came back to him and asked for help. He (I think pretended to) look at his computer and told me nothing is available. Later I called the number again and got a seat. I was puzzled with the behavior of the airlines staff. I thought may be earlier seat wasn't available. But, I was certainly not happy with there service. Later I also found out that last year only that they were sued by African-American employees for overtly racist patterns and practices: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/8/24/1415082/-American-Airlines-being-sued-by-African-American-employees-for-overtly-racist-patterns-and-practices http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/8/24/1415082/-American-Ai...