10 ms·
I always try to watch the webcasts and I can't help but cringe so hard when they start chanting 'USA USA USA', every single time. What is up with that?
by neals 10y ago
I always try to watch the webcasts and I can't help but cringe so hard when they start chanting 'USA USA USA', every single time.
What is up with that?
- JumpCrisscross 10y agoIt's an American company, hiring American engineers, and successfully competing with the interests of entire nation-states?
- Luc 10y agoNo, it's something else, a cultural quirk among Americans.
- adventured 10y agoNo it's not. The French, British and Italians for example all have extreme amounts of nationalistic pride and show it throughout their economies, the pride they hold regarding their history and culture. Scandinavia is very proud of its broadly tremendous standard of living and their well run welfare states, etc. - and Scandinavians are never shy about bragging about it online in my observation, you can hardly get away from it. The Chinese and Japanese are extremely nationalistic, and that's downplaying how nationalistic they are, extremely doesn't do it justice. I also find any time India has an accomplishment that gets global attention, Indians take a massive amount of pride in it, and you can see that pour out on HN or Reddit for example (and I don't think there is anything wrong with that). The chant may be a quirk of the US, the nationalism it represents is absolutely not.
- DanBC 10y agoWhen someone flies the England flag the assumption most people make is that the person is far right racist football yob. I have to constantly guard against this bit of bias - "no, DanBC, they might not be a drunken lout". It's a bit different during soccer world cup or european cup. Very few people fly the Union flag. And chanting: no-one chants unless they're at a sports match. Chants just feel weird.
- TeMPOraL 10y agoChants are just a show of strong emotion. Something the professional life generally abhors - that's why it feels weird. People are not supposed to be that happy about their success, and especially not to connect private business with national pride. But space industry is a bit different, and SpaceX is a very different company - they're honest-to-god driven by the idea, not profit. (This chanting irks me a bit too, tbh., but I know it's because I'm not American and I want to picture SpaceX's successes as something done for all mankind, not just one group of people I don't belong to. A funny psychological bias :).)
- vidarh 10y agoBut it is the chant we are talking about. I can't think of anywhere else I've been where someone starting to chant the country's name in response to the actions of a single company wouldn't lead to embarrassed looks and face-palming from people around them. This is not about there not being nationalism elsewhere, but about how US nationalism gets expressed in contexts that is not seen as representative of the nation elsewhere. This doesn't mean nationalism elsewhere is weaker - just that there are cultural quirks to how it gets expressed, and what actions are seen as representing something of the nation. E.g. most places I've worked I'd expect quite a few people would be offended if you started shouting the country name instead of e.g. the company name as taking away glory for the teams achievements. But in general chanting is perhaps rarer in many European countries outside of sports arrangements. I can't remember a single big work-related success where anyone started chanting anything. Cheering and clapping and popping champagne, sure, but not chanting. I think most places the latter would be seen as tacky more than anything. So the cultural quirk might be more about the level of exuberance considered appropriate in the workplace.
- TeMPOraL 10y agoYou're thinking about SpaceX as just a random company in a random industry. It's not. SpaceX is the space company. On PR area they compete with NASA, the space agency. I can imagine that for many SpaceX employees, their work is synonymous with getting America back into space exploration game.
- vidarh 10y agoAnd I still think that is an American cultural quirk. To me that notion is bizarre.
- falsestprophet 10y agoWhat you people are missing is that Americans don't care what you think.
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- lmm 10y agoWe British would never dream of claiming our country was the best at everything - we might grudgingly admit that we get by all right considering - and my impression is that the rest of Europe is similar. Whereas Americans seem to get offended if you suggest there might be anything that another country was better than theirs at. Not to say it's necessarily good or bad but there is a real cultural difference there.
- bane 10y ago> We British would never dream of claiming our country was the best at everything That's kind of silly. The British are widely known for claiming to have the best in many things. And I've watched enough TV in the U.K. to know that even currently extends into Science and Technology education.
- sandworm101 10y agoAnd here is the distinctly not-American quirk of singing the other country's anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHSaHRd4Q48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHSaHRd4Q48
- bunni 10y agoThey're proud Americans.
- simonh 10y agoAs a Brit we don't have anything as catchy. UKGBNI, or even just UK doesn't have the same ring to it. 'Enganld' wouldn't work because we're too diverse. It would be a bit like the SpaceX folks cheering 'California' in that I'm sure a lot of them are from elsewhere. I've come across it in a few other contexts and I take it like a football chant.
- Udik 10y ago"God save the Queen"? That would be great fun.
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- sevenless 10y agoI've actually managed to get a crowd of Brits chanting U-S-A before. We're so saturated with American culture that we do this naturally. We know all about the constitution. We care more about American politics than our own. We feel put out that we can't vote for Bernie. Every so often I get reminded I'm not actually American, and it's a bit jarring.
- bane 10y agoThe U-S-A chant originates in sporting, it's just carried over to other highly competitive environments.
- searine 10y ago>I've come across it in a few other contexts and I take it like a football chant. Finally, someone who fucking gets it. HN is such a Mecca of sperglords that the can't even understand a sports chant.
- DenisM 10y agoUK sounds just fine I think. It's a 1-2 instead of a 1-2-3, but I think it works fine, even better: Uuuuu-Kay, Uuuuu-Kay, Uuuuu-Kay.
- kiproping 10y agoI suspect it's some kind of PR stunt for when the video reaches the media. It's OK the first time but after that, not so much.
- JshWright 10y agoYou seriously think the SpaceX PR department is encouraging their employees to chant for... any reason? This is just a bunch of people who are proud of their accomplishment, and proud of the nation that has fostered the environment that allows them to achieve those accomplishments.
- gallonofmilk 10y agoplease explain why this is a bad thing? American industry pushing the envelope and the people doing it aren't allowed to have pride?
- oska 10y agoIt's a tribal chant, which is a bit different to having pride. Obviously the SpaceX staff can do whatever they want when they're celebrating a successful launch and landing. But all non-Americans who are watching and also feeling a lot of pride in what the company has achieved instantly feel alienated when the chant gets going because it's exclusionary. Whether the staff care about this alienation is another matter, but it's real. If you browse the /r/spacex subreddit you constantly see comments about the chant whenever it happens. And that is a community made up of almost total SpaceX supporters. To give maybe a shallow analogy, it's like a group of men achieved something and then celebrated by chanting “Men, Men, Men!”.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago> But all non-Americans who are watching and also feeling a lot of pride in what the company has achieved instantly feel alienated when the chant gets going because it's exclusionary. Yes, it is, and yes, as an non-American I feel alienated. But I suck it up. Because I'm just a supporter. A fanboy, for a lack of better world. In reality, this is not my success, but the success of men and women working there, almost exclusively American. They have the right to chant however they like and I don't see the reason to make a big deal out of a bit of national pride. Not compared to what they're doing. Also Musk, who's the driver of the culture there, doesn't seem very nationalistic, so I'm not worried they'll try to turn this into USA space hegemony.
- patates 10y agoI didn't really look it up but it would be hard to believe SpaceX being a strictly American company with 100% American workforce. Hell, even if it were, it would still be troublesome if the company didn't position itself as an American nationalistic company - think about all the stakeholders. Maybe some supporters wouldn't be so passionate and some suppliers wouldn't be so perfectionist if they felt they were there for the success of a group that they are not a member of (Humanity vs citizens of USA). From that perspective, it would be even weird for NASA employees to do this, let alone a private company's.
- deanCommie 10y agoUgh, I completely agree. I'm Canadian and it's been a dream of mine for a long time to work for SpaceX. I'll gladly take a big paycut and live in bumfuck nowhere, California to do it (my wife is another story but that's a different discussion). But every time this USA chant comes up I just imagine what it would be like to be in that crowd and be absolutely exhilarated at each success - not just for the company but for HUMANITY (which I already do through the webcast), and feel nothing but cringe and exclusion when the USA chant started. They really gotta reign that in because you just KNOW it's a couple of aggro-patriotic douchebags that start it and everyone else joins in out of excitement and tribal cohesion not because it's the thing that everyone feels in that moment.
- ygra 10y agoI think I read somewhere that they can only employ US citizens because of government and military contracts. So by definition everyone working there would be American anyway.
- Inconel 10y agoGenerally SpaceX only employs "US Persons" due to ITAR restrictions. US Persons are either US Citizens, doesn't matter whether native born or naturalized, and US Permanent Residents, often referred to as Green Card holders. There are ways to obtain ITAR exceptions for non US Persons but the process is long and very expensive so it is only utilized rarely. I will say that SpaceX does employ a fair amount of Permanent Residents as well as a few non US Persons.
- Inconel 10y agoAs someone who works here and doesn't join in the chants but works closely with and respects many of the people that do, I find your description of them as "douchebags" to be rather uncalled for. You are certainly free to disagree with the chants or the overall tone that celebrations like this set within the company, but I don't think that resorting to personal insults is the best approach to having a nuanced discussion on the topic.
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- bluthru 10y agoIt'd be one thing if it was NASA, but a private company? What's the point?
- dkbrk 10y agoIt's tribalism, which is never good, no matter how common or accepted it might be in certain regions or cultures. Much the same as sports fans cheering for their teams or extreme nationalists at a political rally, chanting such as this is symtomatic of an "us versus them" and/or a "we are better than them" mentality. I feel pride in SpaceX accomplishments even though I have in no way contributed to their success because I see them advancing the state of the art in spaceflight for humanity. And I am a human. I hear Elon's stated goal of "making life multi-planetary", and perhaps it sounds idealistic or corny, but I genuinely belive in that goal; I think it is important and I am proud that there are other humans on this planet who are making a concerted effort to see it happen. I do not object specifically to what they chant: chanting "SpaceX" would be very much just as bad. I follow SpaceX not for its own sake or because I think SpaceX is "good" and others are "bad", but because of what they do and what they plan to do. Chanting "SpaceX" would be showing support for the SpaceX-tribal-team as opposed to the ULA-tribal-team or NASA-tribal-team. It is not the team itself that is special, the team is not better than other teams due to intrinsic virtues, it is what the team has accomplished that is important. Let the accomplishments speak for themselves. There is at least one chant I would have no problem with: "Humanity! Humanity! Humanity!". Perhaps it's not quite as catchy, but at least it would put things into the proper perspective.
- robbiemitchell 10y agoHell, my in-laws sing patriotic songs at the dinner table during holidays. They were forced to emigrate in the 60s, settled in the US, worked extremely hard to rebuild their lives, and revere it for the opportunities and freedom it provides. Space started out as a national effort. Most space travel is still a national effort, both here (NASA) and abroad (national space organizations). Even though it's a private company, and the stakes are well beyond a single country, I can imagine a sense of pride for representing your country well at such huge scale. For these engineers and other staff, this is the Olympics. In short, people have all sorts of reasons for feeling prid. These folks certainly earned it. Watching others describe variations of hand wringing and alienation seems silly in comparison.
- bane 10y agoIt's a quirky American thing. But plenty of other countries do it to. Not surprisingly it originates in sports like most of these kinds of chants. Go to an international football/soccer match sometime and let me know how many national chants you hear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwHFm3pBA90 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwHFm3pBA90 ("TAE HAN MIN GUK!" "Great Korean People's Country") Here's a show giving fun lessons on how to properly do the chant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Wli6OrUhNU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Wli6OrUhNU Here's the history of it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-S-A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-S-A! I've heard a bunch of Brits chant something similar "UK! UK! UK! UK!" before. Here it is in Uraguay https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nub526rufzk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nub526rufzk In Canada https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiK3f-fEDdY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiK3f-fEDdY In Chile, I've heard the chant is something like "CHI CHI CHI! LE LE LE! EN EL MAPA NO SE VE!", here's a comedic routine around it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gigjq9GExuE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gigjq9GExuE Here's the Mexican equivalent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1ips57oLX0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1ips57oLX0 Here's Sweden after a sports win https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfqHCwB4aY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfqHCwB4aY If France had a SpaceX equivalent that did something as amazing as this, it would be completely appropriate for the French people who spent years of their lives achieving something thought impossible to suddenly break out and start singing La Marseillaise or chanting. If it happens for something as unimportant as a sporting goal, it's probably okay for it to happen for something that advances the entire species. I'm kind of surprised by all the people from different countries that aren't even aware it happens in their own country or that they might have a similar national chant.
- cjbprime 10y ago> I've heard a bunch of Brits chant something similar "UK! UK! UK! UK!" before. Are you sure they weren't just mocking Americans? :) c.f. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyHSjv9gxlE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyHSjv9gxlE
- bane 10y agoI'm pretty sure they were definitely mocking the American U-S-A chant, but everybody was having a fun time of it. Americans and Brits are always giving each other some ribbing anyways and I think everybody understood that these kinds of chants are kind of tongue in cheek in many ways.
- warrenmiller 10y agoMaybe they don't know their CEO is South African?
- bane 10y ago(nearly) All Americans are immigrants or children of immigrants.
- Mindless2112 10y agoIn 2002, he became a U.S. citizen. [1] For most U.S. Americans, that makes him a U.S. American. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk
- falsestprophet 10y agoSo you're telling Elon Musk he isn't an American? He wouldn't pay you any mind. I'm a other-than-singular national as well and I certainly don't care to hear I'm not American.
- nugga 10y agoActually their CEO is African American..
- Inconel 10y agoI'm pretty sure Elon considers himself thoroughly American at this point. You may find this surprising but there are in fact many foreign born employees working at SpaceX. Some of us even have accents and unusual names to go along with certain cultural quirks. I don't consider them, or myself, any less American.
- kaendfinger 10y agoIn my opinion, it may not necessarily be a national pride thing, as much as it's just an impulse. Because in sports, this happens often, I think it's more about showing how happy they are than crediting the United States for the accomplishments they made. As an American (and specifically, a 16-year-old Software Engineer), growing up in the United States, this is normal, and is sometimes patriotic, sometimes an automatic response to excitement. I understand why some people might find it odd. I don't really believe that the act of chanting "USA" is meant to alienate people. I guess you could equate it to the cultural oddities, sort of like when you travel to a different country. Some people bow, shake hands, etc for greetings, just the same way that Americans show excitement by chanting "USA", while other countries may not.
- Udik 10y agoHave you ever thought about how this pride for your nation, pervasive at the point of feeling natural, might cloud your judgment when dealing with other nations that might have competing, but perfectly legitimate, interest? In other words, are American citizens able to put themselves in the place of others, and judge fairly and dispassionately about international events? Because this is what I have strong doubts about.
- tynpeddler 10y agoHave you considered if your instinctive discomfort with group identities might make it difficult to understand the genuine differences in mindsets and worldviews that arise between different groups of people? I ask because it seems that people who reflexively dismiss the importance of groups can make as many errors in judgement as those who reflexively adhere to group identities.
- TulliusCicero 10y agoI think you're overthinking this cultural convention. It's like talking to a Japanese person and saying, "How you ever thought about how bowing instead of shaking hands de-normalizes physical human contact?"
- pdkl95 10y agoIt could be worse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2VXyfvZxSU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2VXyfvZxSU (Warning: contains strong language. Hilarious strong language, from The Onion)
- marze 10y agoThis is almost universally misinterpreted. The actual interpretation of the chant is this: we are the space program of the USA.