6 ms·

This, in combination with American airports being completely ignorant to the transit concept must cost American airline companies dozens, if not hundreds of mil

This, in combination with American airports being completely ignorant to the transit concept must cost American airline companies dozens, if not hundreds of millions a year in lost revenues. Case in point: if I want to to fly from Zurich to Lima I have essentially two choices: I can connect either in Amsterdam, or in Madrid. Madrids legal connection time is 55 minutes max (on Iberia). In AMS on KLM it's a maximum of 50 minutes. Another option would be to fly via an US airport. For example Miami. Only that I would have to be crazy. Start with the fact that I can't check my luggage through to Lima. I must go through immigration in Miami, pick up my luggage, go through customs, re-check my luggage and then endure the security hassle. Even if the US connection would save me a couple hundred $ I would have to be crazy to chose the hassle, the annoyance and the risk of missing my connection. And I don't think I'm alone with such thoughts. Edited: Added actual legal connection times for AMS and MAD

smoe 11y ago
I once flew back from Costa Rica to Zürich via Miami, because I wasn't aware that unlike every other airport I have ever been, the US doesn't do transit. Since that horrific day I never went to Latin America via the US again, no matter how much cheaper it would have been.
Havoc 11y ago
What is this "legal connection time"? Never heard of it before - despite being in Europe.
- burkaman 11y ago
  It just means the minimum amount of time between flights that an airline will require. They will try not to let you book a connecting flight 10 minutes after the first one lands; that would be an "illegal connection". Not an actual law, just airline policy.
  - buro9 11y ago
    I have the fun of going through Secondary every time I touch US soil... for me, if I have a connecting flight on the way from LHR to SFO (via Dallas, LA or Chicago) then I need to allow 3 hours for the connection. It is very hard to book such flights, and if booked as 2 single hops I've once before missed the connection due to being in security and United argued that the second flight was not a connection and so they didn't have to put me on the next flight. My baggage of course had gone ahead.
- ubernostrum 11y ago
  Expanding a bit: the more usual term is MCT -- "minimum connection time". There are actually multiple categories of MCTs: * MCT D-D: Minimum connection time, from one domestic flight to another domestic flight. * MCT D-I: Minimum connection time, from a domestic flight to an international flight. * MCT I-D: Minimum connection time, from an international flight to a domestic flight. * MCT I-I: Minimum connection time, from one international flight to another international flight. These are set per airline per airport, and in many cases there are more fine-grained MCTs for flights depending on origin/destination or categorized by flight number. The airline will not let you purchase tickets for an itinerary which violates the relevant MCT, and if delays cause you to dip below the MCT you're possibly going to be rebooked (though no guarantee of it). For completeness' sake, here's what the information looks like in raw form (this is the MCT for American Airlines at its hub in Charlotte): STANDARD.D/D...D/I...I/D...I/I. ONLINE .40 1.00 1.00 1.00 OFFLINE .40 1.00 1.00 1.00 ** OR * ARE ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 EQP ALL - E70 PUERTO RICO - ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 EQP ALL - E70 VIRGIN ISLAND US - ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 EQP ALL - E75 PUERTO RICO - ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 EQP ALL - E75 VIRGIN ISLAND US - ALL AA-AA ID SUP FLT 1 - 9099 - FLT 1 - 9099 CANADA - CANADA AA-AA ID SUP FLT 1 - 9099 - FLT 1 - 9099 MEXICO - MEXICO AA-AA ID .50 FLT 1 - 6099 - FLT 1 - 6099 IRELAND - ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 1 - 2754 PUERTO RICO - ALL AA-AA ID .35 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 PUERTO RICO - ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 1 - 2754 VIRGIN ISLAND US - ALL AA-AA ID .35 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 VIRGIN ISLAND US - ALL AA-AA ID 1.15 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 1 - 6099 GROUP3 - ALL AA-AA ID 1.00 FLT 1 - 6099 - FLT 1 - 6099 **-AA ID 1.15 ALL - FLT 1 - 6099 **-AA ID SUP ALL - FLT 6100 - 9099 AA-** ID 1.15 FLT 1 - 6099 - ALL AA-** ID SUP FLT 6100 - 9099 - ALL USE T*GRPN FOR CITIES IN A GROUP. WHERE N IS THE GRP NUMBER. The first few lines give the general rule ("ONLINE" means both flights on the same airline, "OFFLINE" means connecting to a flight of a different airline), and after that come exceptions. For example: AA-AA ID SUP FLT 1 - 9099 - FLT 1 - 9099 CANADA - CANADA "AA-AA" means from American Airlines to American Airlines. "SUP" means "suppressed": the connection is invalid. "FLT" gives a block of flight numbers the exception applies to (1 through 9099). "CANADA - CANADA" gives the origin of the inbound and destination of the outbound flights. So this is a fancy way of saying American forbids booking a flight from somewhere in Canada, to somewhere in Canada, connecting in Charlotte, on a flight numbered 1 though 9099, regardless of the amount of time of the connection. Other codes like "EQP" refer to the type of aircraft ("N" for narrowbody, "W" for widebody, "ALL" for all types). You can spot other fun things in there, like the shorter time to connect on a flight from Ireland to a domestic flight; AA flies to Charlotte from Dublin, and Dublin has US Customs preclearance facilities, so passengers arriving from Dublin don't have to clear customs in Charlotte and can make a tighter connection.
grecy 11y ago
While living in South America I talked to hundreds of travelers from Europe who were forced to connect through the USA on their way south, and they all had to clear customs, even if for just a one hour layover. The hoops they had to jump through, and the stories they told. 99% vowed they would never again board a plane to the USA.
- jlg23 11y ago
  True. I have to get from Medellin, Colombia to Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic soon. I had three choices: * about 10h travel time via MIA and/or JFK for $240 (+ $50 for ESTA) * 4.5h via Panama City to Punta Cana plus 8h on a bus for $800 * 17h via Curacao, Aruba, Saint Martin to Santo Domingo and then 5h on a bus for $320 (+ $70 for night in a hotel on Curacao and transfers to/from the airport, + $20 Curacao Airport ripoff fee) Curacao, here I come!
  - Scoundreller 11y ago
    ESTA is $14. Make sure you're not checking on some unofficial ESTA website.
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
Oh come on. I fly through Europe twice to three times a year. The transfer from Charles de Gaulle is a nightmare worse than any major US airport. They literally make you leave the security area and go through security for simple transfers if you're coming from the states. That's shit design right there. A lot of international connections are terrible and knowing which airports/airlines do a good job is important. Its not a US thing. Also, what a shit prize naming a airport after someone is. No one likes airports. de Gaulle deserves better.
- icelancer 11y ago
  Agreed. CDG is worse than almost any US airport. SEA is up there with the worst in the world though. It's only tolerable for me because I have NEXUS/Global Entry/TSA PRE.
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    SEA? I've never had a problem with customs/immigration, 5 minutes tops. Security getting in is a long line but nothing horrible. All in all, a dream compared to Beijing capital airport.
- Symbiote 11y ago
  A difference is that the USA requires people transferring through one of its airports to get a visa, or a visa waiver (for Europeans etc). And to queue up and go through customs. This is very unusual. Paris might make security a hassle, but they won't look at their passport.
- wiredfool 11y ago
  Heathrow too. I've made international transfers through terminal 5 and had to go through both immigration and security. And Heathrow is absolutely crazy about liquids. No cough syrup for you, because it's impossible to find bottles of it smaller than 100ml.
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
WildUtah 11y ago
AeroMexico has a monopoly on flights from Latin America to Asia. (Technically, you can fly from Brazil to Abu Dhabi or something, but only AM goes to east Asia.) The AM flights run from Mexico City to Narita (a third-tier city in Japan) and Shanghai, usually on 787s. They may add Peking. Similar services are available connecting through LAX, SFO, or DFW and those are often faster if you're going to other Asian cities or connecting into MEX on the way. But somehow those AM flights usually carry ticket prices 30-50% higher than the equivalent service through US airports. That's often a $500+ premium. And the flights still fill up. AM catering may be a bit better in economy than on US carriers but the service is mostly identical. Turns out, that's what it's worth to avoid US airport procedures. The value in the market for avoiding TSA, the lack of sterile transit, US customs and immigration, intrusive slow humiliating US embassy visa operations, and the random nightmares passengers are treated to once in a while is about $500. A bargain, really.
- JimboOmega 11y ago
  Narita is the main airport for international flights to Tokyo. It's a bit of a hike to Tokyo proper, but there's a dedicated train. Anyway, I would imagine there are a lot of travelers (business, in particular) sensitive to time but not so much to price, for whom a direct flight is worth a few hundred $ - there was a solid market for the concord, remember. Anyway saving the connection, and a "normal" customs/security experience is probably the bigger factor. Incidentally, compare prices for flights to Vancouver and Seattle sometime.
  - WildUtah 11y ago
    Tokyo International Airport at Haneda is the main airport for international flights to Tokyo -- at least for Japanese carriers. Foreign carriers are exiled to Narita -- a US$200 cab ride away -- as a protectionist measure. Haneda is right next to downtown Tokyo. --- The price difference persists for connecting flights from airports outside MEX and to destination airports outside NRT and Shanghai so it isn't based on direct flights. Though SkyTeam partnership connections in Asia are much less useful now that Delta has abandoned the NW network and most of its own intra-Asia network.
baby 11y ago
Do people get their flight refunded if they miss it by waiting 3 hours in security lines?
- toothbrush 11y ago
  I don't know about refunded, but i did in fact get rebooked (free of charge) onto a later connecting flight after exactly that happened to me. I don't know if that's something you can count on, though -- especially if it's the first flight and not a connection you miss...

smoe 11y ago

I once flew back from Costa Rica to Zürich via Miami, because I wasn't aware that unlike every other airport I have ever been, the US doesn't do transit. Since that horrific day I never went to Latin America via the US again, no matter how much cheaper it would have been.

Havoc 11y ago

What is this "legal connection time"? Never heard of it before - despite being in Europe.

burkaman 11y ago
It just means the minimum amount of time between flights that an airline will require. They will try not to let you book a connecting flight 10 minutes after the first one lands; that would be an "illegal connection". Not an actual law, just airline policy.
- buro9 11y ago
  I have the fun of going through Secondary every time I touch US soil... for me, if I have a connecting flight on the way from LHR to SFO (via Dallas, LA or Chicago) then I need to allow 3 hours for the connection. It is very hard to book such flights, and if booked as 2 single hops I've once before missed the connection due to being in security and United argued that the second flight was not a connection and so they didn't have to put me on the next flight. My baggage of course had gone ahead.
ubernostrum 11y ago
Expanding a bit: the more usual term is MCT -- "minimum connection time". There are actually multiple categories of MCTs: * MCT D-D: Minimum connection time, from one domestic flight to another domestic flight. * MCT D-I: Minimum connection time, from a domestic flight to an international flight. * MCT I-D: Minimum connection time, from an international flight to a domestic flight. * MCT I-I: Minimum connection time, from one international flight to another international flight. These are set per airline per airport, and in many cases there are more fine-grained MCTs for flights depending on origin/destination or categorized by flight number. The airline will not let you purchase tickets for an itinerary which violates the relevant MCT, and if delays cause you to dip below the MCT you're possibly going to be rebooked (though no guarantee of it). For completeness' sake, here's what the information looks like in raw form (this is the MCT for American Airlines at its hub in Charlotte): STANDARD.D/D...D/I...I/D...I/I. ONLINE .40 1.00 1.00 1.00 OFFLINE .40 1.00 1.00 1.00 ** OR * ARE ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 EQP ALL - E70 PUERTO RICO - ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 EQP ALL - E70 VIRGIN ISLAND US - ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 EQP ALL - E75 PUERTO RICO - ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 EQP ALL - E75 VIRGIN ISLAND US - ALL AA-AA ID SUP FLT 1 - 9099 - FLT 1 - 9099 CANADA - CANADA AA-AA ID SUP FLT 1 - 9099 - FLT 1 - 9099 MEXICO - MEXICO AA-AA ID .50 FLT 1 - 6099 - FLT 1 - 6099 IRELAND - ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 1 - 2754 PUERTO RICO - ALL AA-AA ID .35 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 PUERTO RICO - ALL AA-AA ID .30 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 1 - 2754 VIRGIN ISLAND US - ALL AA-AA ID .35 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 2755 - 6099 VIRGIN ISLAND US - ALL AA-AA ID 1.15 FLT 1 - 2754 - FLT 1 - 6099 GROUP3 - ALL AA-AA ID 1.00 FLT 1 - 6099 - FLT 1 - 6099 **-AA ID 1.15 ALL - FLT 1 - 6099 **-AA ID SUP ALL - FLT 6100 - 9099 AA-** ID 1.15 FLT 1 - 6099 - ALL AA-** ID SUP FLT 6100 - 9099 - ALL USE T*GRPN FOR CITIES IN A GROUP. WHERE N IS THE GRP NUMBER. The first few lines give the general rule ("ONLINE" means both flights on the same airline, "OFFLINE" means connecting to a flight of a different airline), and after that come exceptions. For example: AA-AA ID SUP FLT 1 - 9099 - FLT 1 - 9099 CANADA - CANADA "AA-AA" means from American Airlines to American Airlines. "SUP" means "suppressed": the connection is invalid. "FLT" gives a block of flight numbers the exception applies to (1 through 9099). "CANADA - CANADA" gives the origin of the inbound and destination of the outbound flights. So this is a fancy way of saying American forbids booking a flight from somewhere in Canada, to somewhere in Canada, connecting in Charlotte, on a flight numbered 1 though 9099, regardless of the amount of time of the connection. Other codes like "EQP" refer to the type of aircraft ("N" for narrowbody, "W" for widebody, "ALL" for all types). You can spot other fun things in there, like the shorter time to connect on a flight from Ireland to a domestic flight; AA flies to Charlotte from Dublin, and Dublin has US Customs preclearance facilities, so passengers arriving from Dublin don't have to clear customs in Charlotte and can make a tighter connection.

grecy 11y ago

While living in South America I talked to hundreds of travelers from Europe who were forced to connect through the USA on their way south, and they all had to clear customs, even if for just a one hour layover. The hoops they had to jump through, and the stories they told. 99% vowed they would never again board a plane to the USA.

jlg23 11y ago
True. I have to get from Medellin, Colombia to Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic soon. I had three choices: * about 10h travel time via MIA and/or JFK for $240 (+ $50 for ESTA) * 4.5h via Panama City to Punta Cana plus 8h on a bus for $800 * 17h via Curacao, Aruba, Saint Martin to Santo Domingo and then 5h on a bus for $320 (+ $70 for night in a hotel on Curacao and transfers to/from the airport, + $20 Curacao Airport ripoff fee) Curacao, here I come!
- Scoundreller 11y ago
  ESTA is $14. Make sure you're not checking on some unofficial ESTA website.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

Oh come on. I fly through Europe twice to three times a year. The transfer from Charles de Gaulle is a nightmare worse than any major US airport. They literally make you leave the security area and go through security for simple transfers if you're coming from the states. That's shit design right there. A lot of international connections are terrible and knowing which airports/airlines do a good job is important. Its not a US thing. Also, what a shit prize naming a airport after someone is. No one likes airports. de Gaulle deserves better.

icelancer 11y ago
Agreed. CDG is worse than almost any US airport. SEA is up there with the worst in the world though. It's only tolerable for me because I have NEXUS/Global Entry/TSA PRE.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  SEA? I've never had a problem with customs/immigration, 5 minutes tops. Security getting in is a long line but nothing horrible. All in all, a dream compared to Beijing capital airport.
Symbiote 11y ago
A difference is that the USA requires people transferring through one of its airports to get a visa, or a visa waiver (for Europeans etc). And to queue up and go through customs. This is very unusual. Paris might make security a hassle, but they won't look at their passport.
wiredfool 11y ago
Heathrow too. I've made international transfers through terminal 5 and had to go through both immigration and security. And Heathrow is absolutely crazy about liquids. No cough syrup for you, because it's impossible to find bottles of it smaller than 100ml.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago

WildUtah 11y ago

AeroMexico has a monopoly on flights from Latin America to Asia. (Technically, you can fly from Brazil to Abu Dhabi or something, but only AM goes to east Asia.) The AM flights run from Mexico City to Narita (a third-tier city in Japan) and Shanghai, usually on 787s. They may add Peking. Similar services are available connecting through LAX, SFO, or DFW and those are often faster if you're going to other Asian cities or connecting into MEX on the way. But somehow those AM flights usually carry ticket prices 30-50% higher than the equivalent service through US airports. That's often a $500+ premium. And the flights still fill up. AM catering may be a bit better in economy than on US carriers but the service is mostly identical. Turns out, that's what it's worth to avoid US airport procedures. The value in the market for avoiding TSA, the lack of sterile transit, US customs and immigration, intrusive slow humiliating US embassy visa operations, and the random nightmares passengers are treated to once in a while is about $500. A bargain, really.

JimboOmega 11y ago
Narita is the main airport for international flights to Tokyo. It's a bit of a hike to Tokyo proper, but there's a dedicated train. Anyway, I would imagine there are a lot of travelers (business, in particular) sensitive to time but not so much to price, for whom a direct flight is worth a few hundred $ - there was a solid market for the concord, remember. Anyway saving the connection, and a "normal" customs/security experience is probably the bigger factor. Incidentally, compare prices for flights to Vancouver and Seattle sometime.
- WildUtah 11y ago
  Tokyo International Airport at Haneda is the main airport for international flights to Tokyo -- at least for Japanese carriers. Foreign carriers are exiled to Narita -- a US$200 cab ride away -- as a protectionist measure. Haneda is right next to downtown Tokyo. --- The price difference persists for connecting flights from airports outside MEX and to destination airports outside NRT and Shanghai so it isn't based on direct flights. Though SkyTeam partnership connections in Asia are much less useful now that Delta has abandoned the NW network and most of its own intra-Asia network.

baby 11y ago

Do people get their flight refunded if they miss it by waiting 3 hours in security lines?

toothbrush 11y ago
I don't know about refunded, but i did in fact get rebooked (free of charge) onto a later connecting flight after exactly that happened to me. I don't know if that's something you can count on, though -- especially if it's the first flight and not a connection you miss...