5 ms·

>How can ULA hire anyone beyond third-pick candidates? I have some good friends that work for $unamed_spacex_competitor and their claim is essentially that spa

by blhack 10y ago

>How can ULA hire anyone beyond third-pick candidates? I have some good friends that work for $unamed_spacex_competitor and their claim is essentially that spacex is considered a "bad" job in the industry. They talk about it like it's a sweatshop. Honestly, I think it's just jealousy. If you meet somebody and tell them you work for spacex, they think you're a rockstar. If you meet somebody and tell them you work for Boeing, they say "oh, I didn't know Boeing made rockets, you should go work for spacex!". It does sound like SpaceX is long hours and hard work...but a lot of people really enjoy that sort of thing.

btilly 10y ago
My impression, confirmed by people who work at SpaceX, is that SpaceX is for people whose desired work/life balance is strongly tilted towards work. The work is long, hard and rewarding. But it's clearly not for everyone. And they're pretty up front about that.
- trevor-e 10y ago
  Very true. I love watching the live stream videos which show teams celebrating after successful launches/landings, because it's easy to see just how rewarding the job is for them.
- mattbeckman 10y ago
  I went through the interview process, and it went really well. I got the tour, met some interesting people, had a solid interview, but I didn't get an offer. I like to think I didn't get an offer because I asked about work-life balance with wife & kids one too many times. :) It might have been a good thing to not get that job.
  - celticninja 10y ago
    Sounds like you were not going to be a good fit for them. I expect this will be why they are keen on recent grads with little in the way of a personal life and still plenty of energy for all nighters.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      Its less of a job, and more a tour of duty before moving on to greener pastures.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- SpaceX_Tech 10y ago
  They are extremely upfront about expectations. Sadly, whenever these discussions about employees leaving SpaceX come up, some commenters invariably come to the false conclusion that anyone who leaves SpaceX is a loser or somehow couldn’t hack it here. This is obviously not true. Priorities change and work being the number one or singular focus during one period of life doesn’t make it so perpetually. People get older/more mature and some decide they want to start a family, travel more, want to own a home (not an easy task even as a well paid engineer here in LA), or any number of other good reasons that may lead to leaving SpaceX. None of these reasons should reflect poorly on those who leave. With that being said, I find it incredibly annoying when new employees come in, some with very impressive backgrounds, and within a few weeks start complaining about the work environment despite it being made abundantly clear to them at every point in the hiring process. I was first hired for a job consisting of extremely low skill manual labor and even for someone in my position it was made very clear what was expected of me from the very first phone screening.
- randomsearch 10y ago
  Agreed. SpaceX is an excellent example of how culture comes from the top. I used to have a boss who complained that his employees turned up late or not at all for meetings. He would often turn up late or not at all for meetings. I had another boss who used email excessively. His team used email excessively. Elon Musk is mission-driven, work-oriented and puts in very long hours. Thus SpaceX is mission-driven, work-oriented, and people put in long hours. It's all a matter of choice, I admire Musk and SpaceX whilst also appreciating many people want to spend more time with their family. Just an observation to think on next time your employees don't exhibit the culture you'd like - the answer can often be found in a mirror.
SpaceX_Tech 10y ago
SpaceX is the only aerospace job I've held so I can't speak from personal experience working at any competing companies but from what I hear you are right in that SpaceX tends to have a pretty negative reputation within the industry as far as work/pay are concerned. Interestingly, this tends to work in favor of SpaceX employees who leave the company. I've heard that while engineers from competitors often times see working here as undesirable, hiring managers are quite fond of ex-SpaceX employees, at least partially due to it being a difficult work environment. I've heard that at the very least, competency notwithstanding, having SpaceX on your resume shows you can handle long hours and stress. I would also add that in general I think many people tend to think the grass is always greener on the other side. I’ve known both engineers and technicians who have moved on to “greener” pastures at more established aerospace/defense companies only to later tell me that they weren’t all that green afterall. I have a good friend who joined a large aero/defense conglomerate out of state to be closer to family and while the the pay pump was a nice feature at first, its luster wore off after a few weeks when he ran into some bureaucratic issues that he probably wouldn’t have had to worry about here. I also work closely with a fairly senior engineer who has a decade plus experience at JPL and Rocketdyne and flatly states that working here has rekindled his passion largely due to the relatively flat structure. He was absolutely worn out by all the middle managers he had to deal with previously. I think, and this is especially true at the more senior engineering levels, not necessarily for us lowly techs, having the ability to walk over to Elon or Tom Mueller and voice your concerns directly is pretty empowering for most and makes working here very unique in an industry that tends to put massive layers between engineers and management. I’ll add a counter point so that I don’t come off sounding like a complete SpaceX shill and say that I also know people who have left and are very happy with their decision and their new workplaces, although many, in my experience most, still look back at their time here fondly. I would also note that the space launch business inherently requires long hours due to its complexity and unpredictability. If you work in space launch, and are responsible for any flight critical operations, you will work the occasional 60, 70, or even 80 hour week, there is simply no way around it and it even happens at places like ULA and Rocketdyne. This isn’t to excuse SpaceX’s sometimes poor planning and management which end up requiring more of these long weeks than should arguably be necessary, but sometimes it’s just a fact of life in this industry. Hopefully as the company matures hours and schedules continue to stabilize, it’s always frustrating to lose good people because they have to make the choice between spending time with family or work.
celticninja 10y ago
I imagine that part of the sweatshop mentality comes from those who burn out. Not being negative about them at all. When you are in it and excited then long days and nights aren't a hardship but it can get that way. I doubt there are many who will stay the course with spacex if that is the mentality there but they get to cut their teeth there and branch out to the rest of the industry. Normally I would be critical of that type of workplace, which is how I feel about Amazon when the stories of that workplace are aired. But I give spacex a pass because they are aiming for something no one has done before. Busting some amazon coders balls to raise the profits of the company is a piss poor reason for stressing people out, going to the red planet however.
patcon 10y ago
I've heard as well that it's an unhealthy work environment. (For people who have shared priorities like family or outside interests. To each their own.)
anovikov 10y ago
Isn't that what a startup should be? Long hours of hard work with a real goal, generously paid... in stock.
- visakanv 10y ago
  Yup. The annoying thing is that there are always people on the other side of the fence yelling at you that you're doing it wrong, no matter what you're doing, and for reasons that can be entirely unrelated to you and your context. The fantasy is that work should be engaging, fulfilling, fun, and yet only moderately challenging, doesn't take too many hours, has you surrounded by ideal colleagues, with policies that fit you perfectly... you get the idea. Reality doesn't work like that and it's so silly that people keep pretending otherwise.
  - anovikov 10y ago
    It does work like that, if you freelance. You get to pick your customers all the time. Except they don't pay for your 401(k) etc.
    - visakanv 10y ago
      Yeah, so there are always trade-offs that an individual would have to make. Freelancers get freedom and flexibility, but they take a bit of a pay cut for it (as in the form of 401(k), like you mentioned). This might be a more optimal outcome for a particular individual with a particular set of circumstances. And it IS possible for a freelancer to charge way more and get way better clients than an average salaryman, but that requires being able to deliver superior results. That's a responsibility that few people seem to be willing to take. The central thing about either side of the fence is– nobody owes us anything, and it's up to us as individuals to negotiate for the conditions that we want.

by blhack 10y ago

btilly 10y ago

My impression, confirmed by people who work at SpaceX, is that SpaceX is for people whose desired work/life balance is strongly tilted towards work. The work is long, hard and rewarding. But it's clearly not for everyone. And they're pretty up front about that.

trevor-e 10y ago
Very true. I love watching the live stream videos which show teams celebrating after successful launches/landings, because it's easy to see just how rewarding the job is for them.
mattbeckman 10y ago
I went through the interview process, and it went really well. I got the tour, met some interesting people, had a solid interview, but I didn't get an offer. I like to think I didn't get an offer because I asked about work-life balance with wife & kids one too many times. :) It might have been a good thing to not get that job.
- celticninja 10y ago
  Sounds like you were not going to be a good fit for them. I expect this will be why they are keen on recent grads with little in the way of a personal life and still plenty of energy for all nighters.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    Its less of a job, and more a tour of duty before moving on to greener pastures.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
SpaceX_Tech 10y ago
They are extremely upfront about expectations. Sadly, whenever these discussions about employees leaving SpaceX come up, some commenters invariably come to the false conclusion that anyone who leaves SpaceX is a loser or somehow couldn’t hack it here. This is obviously not true. Priorities change and work being the number one or singular focus during one period of life doesn’t make it so perpetually. People get older/more mature and some decide they want to start a family, travel more, want to own a home (not an easy task even as a well paid engineer here in LA), or any number of other good reasons that may lead to leaving SpaceX. None of these reasons should reflect poorly on those who leave. With that being said, I find it incredibly annoying when new employees come in, some with very impressive backgrounds, and within a few weeks start complaining about the work environment despite it being made abundantly clear to them at every point in the hiring process. I was first hired for a job consisting of extremely low skill manual labor and even for someone in my position it was made very clear what was expected of me from the very first phone screening.
randomsearch 10y ago
Agreed. SpaceX is an excellent example of how culture comes from the top. I used to have a boss who complained that his employees turned up late or not at all for meetings. He would often turn up late or not at all for meetings. I had another boss who used email excessively. His team used email excessively. Elon Musk is mission-driven, work-oriented and puts in very long hours. Thus SpaceX is mission-driven, work-oriented, and people put in long hours. It's all a matter of choice, I admire Musk and SpaceX whilst also appreciating many people want to spend more time with their family. Just an observation to think on next time your employees don't exhibit the culture you'd like - the answer can often be found in a mirror.

SpaceX_Tech 10y ago

SpaceX is the only aerospace job I've held so I can't speak from personal experience working at any competing companies but from what I hear you are right in that SpaceX tends to have a pretty negative reputation within the industry as far as work/pay are concerned. Interestingly, this tends to work in favor of SpaceX employees who leave the company. I've heard that while engineers from competitors often times see working here as undesirable, hiring managers are quite fond of ex-SpaceX employees, at least partially due to it being a difficult work environment. I've heard that at the very least, competency notwithstanding, having SpaceX on your resume shows you can handle long hours and stress. I would also add that in general I think many people tend to think the grass is always greener on the other side. I’ve known both engineers and technicians who have moved on to “greener” pastures at more established aerospace/defense companies only to later tell me that they weren’t all that green afterall. I have a good friend who joined a large aero/defense conglomerate out of state to be closer to family and while the the pay pump was a nice feature at first, its luster wore off after a few weeks when he ran into some bureaucratic issues that he probably wouldn’t have had to worry about here. I also work closely with a fairly senior engineer who has a decade plus experience at JPL and Rocketdyne and flatly states that working here has rekindled his passion largely due to the relatively flat structure. He was absolutely worn out by all the middle managers he had to deal with previously. I think, and this is especially true at the more senior engineering levels, not necessarily for us lowly techs, having the ability to walk over to Elon or Tom Mueller and voice your concerns directly is pretty empowering for most and makes working here very unique in an industry that tends to put massive layers between engineers and management. I’ll add a counter point so that I don’t come off sounding like a complete SpaceX shill and say that I also know people who have left and are very happy with their decision and their new workplaces, although many, in my experience most, still look back at their time here fondly. I would also note that the space launch business inherently requires long hours due to its complexity and unpredictability. If you work in space launch, and are responsible for any flight critical operations, you will work the occasional 60, 70, or even 80 hour week, there is simply no way around it and it even happens at places like ULA and Rocketdyne. This isn’t to excuse SpaceX’s sometimes poor planning and management which end up requiring more of these long weeks than should arguably be necessary, but sometimes it’s just a fact of life in this industry. Hopefully as the company matures hours and schedules continue to stabilize, it’s always frustrating to lose good people because they have to make the choice between spending time with family or work.

celticninja 10y ago

I imagine that part of the sweatshop mentality comes from those who burn out. Not being negative about them at all. When you are in it and excited then long days and nights aren't a hardship but it can get that way. I doubt there are many who will stay the course with spacex if that is the mentality there but they get to cut their teeth there and branch out to the rest of the industry. Normally I would be critical of that type of workplace, which is how I feel about Amazon when the stories of that workplace are aired. But I give spacex a pass because they are aiming for something no one has done before. Busting some amazon coders balls to raise the profits of the company is a piss poor reason for stressing people out, going to the red planet however.

patcon 10y ago

I've heard as well that it's an unhealthy work environment. (For people who have shared priorities like family or outside interests. To each their own.)

anovikov 10y ago

Isn't that what a startup should be? Long hours of hard work with a real goal, generously paid... in stock.

visakanv 10y ago
Yup. The annoying thing is that there are always people on the other side of the fence yelling at you that you're doing it wrong, no matter what you're doing, and for reasons that can be entirely unrelated to you and your context. The fantasy is that work should be engaging, fulfilling, fun, and yet only moderately challenging, doesn't take too many hours, has you surrounded by ideal colleagues, with policies that fit you perfectly... you get the idea. Reality doesn't work like that and it's so silly that people keep pretending otherwise.
- anovikov 10y ago
  It does work like that, if you freelance. You get to pick your customers all the time. Except they don't pay for your 401(k) etc.
  - visakanv 10y ago
    Yeah, so there are always trade-offs that an individual would have to make. Freelancers get freedom and flexibility, but they take a bit of a pay cut for it (as in the form of 401(k), like you mentioned). This might be a more optimal outcome for a particular individual with a particular set of circumstances. And it IS possible for a freelancer to charge way more and get way better clients than an average salaryman, but that requires being able to deliver superior results. That's a responsibility that few people seem to be willing to take. The central thing about either side of the fence is– nobody owes us anything, and it's up to us as individuals to negotiate for the conditions that we want.