5 ms·

Tangential question: One of HN's frequent subjects is the rapid rise in Bay Area housing prices. Since real estate is an asset like any other, how does the Fed'

Tangential question: One of HN's frequent subjects is the rapid rise in Bay Area housing prices. Since real estate is an asset like any other, how does the Fed's policy of inflating asset prices contribute to this phenomenon?

ArkyBeagle 11y ago
Real estate price rises at that level imply the pursuit of land rents. This doesn't happen in Texas. Compare and contrast.
rhino369 11y ago
Low interest rates means you can afford to borrow more money to buy a house. 3000 dollars a month payment radically changes based on how much the interest changes.
nickles 11y ago
Real estate prices, as with all other assets, are a function of supply and demand. In the case of San Francisco, supply has remained relatively constant (due to stability in the housing stock) and demand has increased. Without looking at the data, I'd imagine the recent explosion of the technology industry in the Bay Area has been the largest driver of demand for houses. An increased number of people moving to the area for employment will naturally increase the demand for houses. However, Fed policies also contribute to the demand for housing. As the Fed has kept interest rates close to 0%, it is much easier to finance mortgages for houses, so the housing becomes more affordable (when considering amortization). Additionally, these policies have also driven investment into higher yielding assets, such as equities, in search for greater return. This has had the effect of increasing many individuals' wealth, making them more capable of purchasing houses. With increases in the ability to pay for housing (assuming housing is a normal good), there will be an increase in demand for housing.
- usefulcat 11y ago
  "... it is much easier to finance mortgages for houses, so the housing becomes more affordable ..." Not necessarily. Widespread access to greater amounts of affordable credit also means that more people can afford to buy more expensive houses, which puts upward pressure on housing prices. So sure, you might get a better rate, but that better rate may well be negated by a higher purchase price.
  - nickles 11y ago
    I'm glad we agree... "With increases in the ability to pay for housing (assuming housing is a normal good), there will be an increase in demand for housing."
- moheeb 11y ago
  Real estate prices are not solely a function of supply and demand. If the value of your money goes down, so too will the price of your house.
  - nickles 11y ago
    >Real estate prices are not solely a function of supply and demand. If the value of your money goes down, so too will the price of your house. Sorry, but that statement is pure nonsense. If the value of your money goes down, you will need more if it to purchase any good (since it is less valuable). Therefore the price of your house has increased, since you need a nominally greater amount of money to purchase the house. And, yes, all asset prices are ultimately determined by supply and demand. Suppose you are the last person on earth. You necessarily own all houses on earth. However, you cannot sell them for any price, so no price exists. Now suppose you own the only house on earth (with its current population). I imagine you might be unwilling to give up the comforts of a home at any price (although people will likely offer huge sums for the house). As you can see, the supply and demand of assets fundamentally determines their values.
    - Retric 11y ago
      The housing prices don't really adjust for foreign exchange rates of a currency most of the time. There are forces in both directions with foreign and local buyers both being impacted in different ways.
      - nickles 11y ago
        > The housing prices don't really adjust for foreign exchange rates of a currency most of the time. That's really not a correct statement. The drivers of currency fluctuations are absolutely going to affect the value of housing (interest rates, legal infrastructure, etc.) As a prime example, consider the housing market in Vancouver. Prices have increased significantly, in large part due to capital flight from China. As holding RMB became less attractive, buyers altered their asset allocations. > There are forces in both directions with foreign and local buyers both being impacted in different ways. That's tautological. Holding one currency has the opportunity cost of not holding other currencies. If EURUSD increases, then holders of EUR will benefit exactly as much as holders of USD suffer (relative to one another).
- afiedler 11y ago
  The zero interest rate definitely does contribute, but a bigger deal for mortgage rates is that the Fed continues to buy $24-26 billion a month in mortgage-backed securities. It is keeping its total holdings of MBS constant, but since total holdings are still over $1.7 trillion, that results in a lot of purchases each month to cover the reduction in principal from people paying off mortgages in existing MBS. This article has a good explaination: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/16/why-the-fed-move-doesnt-matter-to-mortgage-rates.html http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/16/why-the-fed-move-doesnt-matte...
  - nickles 11y ago
    >The zero interest rate definitely does contribute, but a bigger deal for mortgage rates is that the Fed continues to buy $24-26 billion a month in mortgage-backed securities I think you've got the right idea, but you are misinterpreting things slightly. Purchasing MBS contributes to ZIRP (as opposed to serving a separate policy objective). MBS are interest rate products based on mortgages instead of US Government credit (although you can view MBS as a US Treasury + some spread). In sustaining purchases of MBS (supporting their price), the Fed drives down their yields (note that yields necessarily move inversely with price). In effect, these purchases result in lower interest rates and go hand in hand with ZIRP. > that results in a lot of purchases each month to cover the reduction in principal from people paying off mortgages in existing MBS. I'm not sure what you mean by this. A person's principal is only changed when she makes a payment on the principal. Fed's purchases will affect the yield on the MBS.
brandur 11y ago
There's no question that it's a major factor. Even well-heeled individuals/couples don't take out mortgages on the order of $800,000 if they don't get minuscule rates on the order of ~3%. Banks wouldn't be able to hand out those rates for spans of ~30 years unless the government gives them access to cheap money and guarantees the loan.
- refurb 11y ago
  Agree entirely. Once interest rates rise, you'll see a direct impact on SF housing prices. People who can afford an $800,000 mortgage at 3%, can't borrow anywhere near that amount when rates are 6% (closer to the historical average).
  - ChuckMcM 11y ago
    Yeah, it goes down to $563,000 if its 6%, a 30% drop in affordable home price.
    - ryandrake 11y ago
      It's funny, as someone who was still a kid back in the 80s, the idea of a 6% mortgage sounds ridiculous to me. How on Earth could someone afford to pay all that interest? Yet, mortgage rates were at times in the past over 15% (!!!)
      - rco8786 11y ago
        It's not so bad when the actual price of the home is 30% lower.
      - ChuckMcM 11y ago
        The interest rate on my first house in Sunnyvale was 13% and it adjusted every 6 months. Of course the house cost $153,000. Still it took both my wife and I working (she is also an engineer) to make the payments and we didn't have kids yet. At the same time my Vanguard money market account was paying 15% annual interest. That was pretty awesome.
roymurdock 11y ago
Selections from an article titled If You're Over 65, You Should Love the Fed by N Kocherlakota, former president of Fed Reserve Bank of Minneapolis: Conventional wisdom suggests that monetary stimulus is particularly bad for senior citizens: When the Federal Reserve holds interest rates low, retirees tend to get less income from their nest eggs. Over the past eight years, though, they've done a lot better than this simple logic would imply. Consider the amount of goods and services that seniors consume -- an important indicator of their well-being. According to the Consumer Expenditure Survey, the average household headed by someone aged 65 or older consumed 5 percent more in 2014 than in 2007, adjusted for inflation. That compares to declines of 5 percent for all households and 7 percent for households headed by someone aged 35 to 44... Seniors hold more assets like stocks, bonds, and homes than do younger folks. All of these assets have appreciated a lot over the past seven years, providing seniors with a source of spending money that offsets some of the effect of low interest rates... We should assess the appropriateness of monetary policy in terms of macroeconomic outcomes, not in terms of the level of interest rates. And when we judge by outcomes, we have to conclude that monetary policy has not been appropriate for the economy as a whole, because inflation and employment have been too low. Unduly tight monetary policy has systematically shifted the distribution of resources toward people who are not working and who receive payments that are, in large part, not indexed to inflation -- that is, toward retirees. http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-03-18/if-you-re-over-65-you-should-love-the-fed http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-03-18/if-you-re-o...
ww520 11y ago
Interest rate has a huge impact on housing price, as most people borrow to buy houses these days. People evaluate monthly payment more than the price. If they can afford the monthly payment, they can afford the house. Lower interest rate lowers the monthly payment. People can afford higher priced houses. When everyone does it, the general housing price goes up.
mathattack 11y ago
The US Fed was a very large buyer of Mortgage Backed Securities, lower the rate of US mortgages. This means that they directly contribute to the housing rate increase. (This is in addition to the indirect aspect of lower long term rates raising equity prices, and people putting that money into houses) https://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/mbs_faq.html https://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/mbs_faq.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-10-28/fed-sees-avoiding-unprecedented-losses-by-holding-mortgage-bonds http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-10-28/fed-sees-a... http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fed-bought-up-half-of-agency-mortgage-backed-securities-last-year-2015-04-07 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fed-bought-up-half-of-agenc...
marcosdumay 11y ago
Housing is one of the preferred assets for the US government placing the money it creates. It's this way here at Brazil too. The cheap money policies are the entire cause of the recent housing price explosion in a big part of the world.
- KKKKkkkk1 11y ago
  That's what I think too. In my home country, it's conventional wisdom that the central bank's policy of low interest rates is pumping up a bubble in housing prices. But somehow here in the United States, people feel it's more of a secondary issue.
nradov 11y ago
It won't direct affect cash buyers, who currently constitute about a quarter of the housing market. Nothing will really change for foreign investors looking to park their assets in a safe location. But a stock market crash could reduce the number of buyers who are able to cash out stocks from IPOs and buy homes. http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/networth/article/All-cash-home-buyers-not-as-common-as-they-seem-6682285.php http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/networth/article/All-cas...

ArkyBeagle 11y ago

Real estate price rises at that level imply the pursuit of land rents. This doesn't happen in Texas. Compare and contrast.

rhino369 11y ago

Low interest rates means you can afford to borrow more money to buy a house. 3000 dollars a month payment radically changes based on how much the interest changes.

nickles 11y ago

Real estate prices, as with all other assets, are a function of supply and demand. In the case of San Francisco, supply has remained relatively constant (due to stability in the housing stock) and demand has increased. Without looking at the data, I'd imagine the recent explosion of the technology industry in the Bay Area has been the largest driver of demand for houses. An increased number of people moving to the area for employment will naturally increase the demand for houses. However, Fed policies also contribute to the demand for housing. As the Fed has kept interest rates close to 0%, it is much easier to finance mortgages for houses, so the housing becomes more affordable (when considering amortization). Additionally, these policies have also driven investment into higher yielding assets, such as equities, in search for greater return. This has had the effect of increasing many individuals' wealth, making them more capable of purchasing houses. With increases in the ability to pay for housing (assuming housing is a normal good), there will be an increase in demand for housing.

usefulcat 11y ago
"... it is much easier to finance mortgages for houses, so the housing becomes more affordable ..." Not necessarily. Widespread access to greater amounts of affordable credit also means that more people can afford to buy more expensive houses, which puts upward pressure on housing prices. So sure, you might get a better rate, but that better rate may well be negated by a higher purchase price.
- nickles 11y ago
  I'm glad we agree... "With increases in the ability to pay for housing (assuming housing is a normal good), there will be an increase in demand for housing."
moheeb 11y ago
Real estate prices are not solely a function of supply and demand. If the value of your money goes down, so too will the price of your house.
- nickles 11y ago
  >Real estate prices are not solely a function of supply and demand. If the value of your money goes down, so too will the price of your house. Sorry, but that statement is pure nonsense. If the value of your money goes down, you will need more if it to purchase any good (since it is less valuable). Therefore the price of your house has increased, since you need a nominally greater amount of money to purchase the house. And, yes, all asset prices are ultimately determined by supply and demand. Suppose you are the last person on earth. You necessarily own all houses on earth. However, you cannot sell them for any price, so no price exists. Now suppose you own the only house on earth (with its current population). I imagine you might be unwilling to give up the comforts of a home at any price (although people will likely offer huge sums for the house). As you can see, the supply and demand of assets fundamentally determines their values.
  - Retric 11y ago
    The housing prices don't really adjust for foreign exchange rates of a currency most of the time. There are forces in both directions with foreign and local buyers both being impacted in different ways.
    - nickles 11y ago
      > The housing prices don't really adjust for foreign exchange rates of a currency most of the time. That's really not a correct statement. The drivers of currency fluctuations are absolutely going to affect the value of housing (interest rates, legal infrastructure, etc.) As a prime example, consider the housing market in Vancouver. Prices have increased significantly, in large part due to capital flight from China. As holding RMB became less attractive, buyers altered their asset allocations. > There are forces in both directions with foreign and local buyers both being impacted in different ways. That's tautological. Holding one currency has the opportunity cost of not holding other currencies. If EURUSD increases, then holders of EUR will benefit exactly as much as holders of USD suffer (relative to one another).
afiedler 11y ago
The zero interest rate definitely does contribute, but a bigger deal for mortgage rates is that the Fed continues to buy $24-26 billion a month in mortgage-backed securities. It is keeping its total holdings of MBS constant, but since total holdings are still over $1.7 trillion, that results in a lot of purchases each month to cover the reduction in principal from people paying off mortgages in existing MBS. This article has a good explaination: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/16/why-the-fed-move-doesnt-matter-to-mortgage-rates.html http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/16/why-the-fed-move-doesnt-matte...
- nickles 11y ago
  >The zero interest rate definitely does contribute, but a bigger deal for mortgage rates is that the Fed continues to buy $24-26 billion a month in mortgage-backed securities I think you've got the right idea, but you are misinterpreting things slightly. Purchasing MBS contributes to ZIRP (as opposed to serving a separate policy objective). MBS are interest rate products based on mortgages instead of US Government credit (although you can view MBS as a US Treasury + some spread). In sustaining purchases of MBS (supporting their price), the Fed drives down their yields (note that yields necessarily move inversely with price). In effect, these purchases result in lower interest rates and go hand in hand with ZIRP. > that results in a lot of purchases each month to cover the reduction in principal from people paying off mortgages in existing MBS. I'm not sure what you mean by this. A person's principal is only changed when she makes a payment on the principal. Fed's purchases will affect the yield on the MBS.

brandur 11y ago

There's no question that it's a major factor. Even well-heeled individuals/couples don't take out mortgages on the order of $800,000 if they don't get minuscule rates on the order of ~3%. Banks wouldn't be able to hand out those rates for spans of ~30 years unless the government gives them access to cheap money and guarantees the loan.

refurb 11y ago
Agree entirely. Once interest rates rise, you'll see a direct impact on SF housing prices. People who can afford an $800,000 mortgage at 3%, can't borrow anywhere near that amount when rates are 6% (closer to the historical average).
- ChuckMcM 11y ago
  Yeah, it goes down to $563,000 if its 6%, a 30% drop in affordable home price.
  - ryandrake 11y ago
    It's funny, as someone who was still a kid back in the 80s, the idea of a 6% mortgage sounds ridiculous to me. How on Earth could someone afford to pay all that interest? Yet, mortgage rates were at times in the past over 15% (!!!)
    - rco8786 11y ago
      It's not so bad when the actual price of the home is 30% lower.
    - ChuckMcM 11y ago
      The interest rate on my first house in Sunnyvale was 13% and it adjusted every 6 months. Of course the house cost $153,000. Still it took both my wife and I working (she is also an engineer) to make the payments and we didn't have kids yet. At the same time my Vanguard money market account was paying 15% annual interest. That was pretty awesome.

roymurdock 11y ago

Selections from an article titled If You're Over 65, You Should Love the Fed by N Kocherlakota, former president of Fed Reserve Bank of Minneapolis: Conventional wisdom suggests that monetary stimulus is particularly bad for senior citizens: When the Federal Reserve holds interest rates low, retirees tend to get less income from their nest eggs. Over the past eight years, though, they've done a lot better than this simple logic would imply. Consider the amount of goods and services that seniors consume -- an important indicator of their well-being. According to the Consumer Expenditure Survey, the average household headed by someone aged 65 or older consumed 5 percent more in 2014 than in 2007, adjusted for inflation. That compares to declines of 5 percent for all households and 7 percent for households headed by someone aged 35 to 44... Seniors hold more assets like stocks, bonds, and homes than do younger folks. All of these assets have appreciated a lot over the past seven years, providing seniors with a source of spending money that offsets some of the effect of low interest rates... We should assess the appropriateness of monetary policy in terms of macroeconomic outcomes, not in terms of the level of interest rates. And when we judge by outcomes, we have to conclude that monetary policy has not been appropriate for the economy as a whole, because inflation and employment have been too low. Unduly tight monetary policy has systematically shifted the distribution of resources toward people who are not working and who receive payments that are, in large part, not indexed to inflation -- that is, toward retirees. http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-03-18/if-you-re-over-65-you-should-love-the-fed http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-03-18/if-you-re-o...

ww520 11y ago

Interest rate has a huge impact on housing price, as most people borrow to buy houses these days. People evaluate monthly payment more than the price. If they can afford the monthly payment, they can afford the house. Lower interest rate lowers the monthly payment. People can afford higher priced houses. When everyone does it, the general housing price goes up.

mathattack 11y ago

The US Fed was a very large buyer of Mortgage Backed Securities, lower the rate of US mortgages. This means that they directly contribute to the housing rate increase. (This is in addition to the indirect aspect of lower long term rates raising equity prices, and people putting that money into houses) https://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/mbs_faq.html https://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/mbs_faq.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-10-28/fed-sees-avoiding-unprecedented-losses-by-holding-mortgage-bonds http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-10-28/fed-sees-a... http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fed-bought-up-half-of-agency-mortgage-backed-securities-last-year-2015-04-07 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fed-bought-up-half-of-agenc...

marcosdumay 11y ago

Housing is one of the preferred assets for the US government placing the money it creates. It's this way here at Brazil too. The cheap money policies are the entire cause of the recent housing price explosion in a big part of the world.

KKKKkkkk1 11y ago
That's what I think too. In my home country, it's conventional wisdom that the central bank's policy of low interest rates is pumping up a bubble in housing prices. But somehow here in the United States, people feel it's more of a secondary issue.

nradov 11y ago

It won't direct affect cash buyers, who currently constitute about a quarter of the housing market. Nothing will really change for foreign investors looking to park their assets in a safe location. But a stock market crash could reduce the number of buyers who are able to cash out stocks from IPOs and buy homes. http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/networth/article/All-cash-home-buyers-not-as-common-as-they-seem-6682285.php http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/networth/article/All-cas...