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Virtual Weapons Are Turning Gamers into Serious Gamblers

134 points by eric_h 11y ago

wcummings 11y ago
>(After leaving Valve, Varoufakis became Greece’s minister of finance.)
- mwcmitchell 11y ago
  this guys career path
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    Look where it started and what he helped manage: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2013/02/varoufakis_on_v.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2013/02/varoufakis_on_v.htm... A bit unique to say the least.
tantalor 11y ago
> People buy skins for cash, then use the skins to place online bets on pro CS:GO matches. What? Why do they do that? Why not use normal currency?
- 542458 11y ago
  From the gambling house's side it avoids regulation, plain and simple. From the gambler's side: People already own skins (from playing normally) or want skins that would be expensive to buy outright. Gambling provides an exciting way of exchanging them. This kickstarts the gambling market. This initial activity then attracts more serious gamblers looking to make a profit in this low-regulation gambling environment populated by many inexperienced gamblers. Cue feedback loop as more and more serious gamblers get involved.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- zyxley 11y ago
  "It's not money, so I'm not gambling, so I don't have to feel back about gambling and losing"
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- prezjordan 11y ago
  Because they're children and can't use real money.
throwanem 11y ago
How on Earth did anyone get through that entire article without using the phrase "skin in the game"? I'm not sure whether to be impressed or disappointed.
tempestn 11y ago
It took me a good 15 seconds to read the subtitle with that background repeatedly stabbing me in the eyes. Bloomberg's design aesthetic is certainly unconventional.
- giancarlostoro 11y ago
  It indeed is a painful image to look at, I don't know why some articles start out like this, I'm not particularly fond of this style for articles I'm trying to read. Not sure when this became a thing, some articles do it right, but if it's done in every single article it doesn't always work out, it's like a place holder wasting my screens real estate.
levemi 11y ago
This story isn't about Valve but the author sure made it seem like it was. A third party site uses Valve's API to enable users to bet skins on esport competitions. This third party site uses Valve's API. Valve is in no way involved in betting. The only thing they haven't done is turn off access to the API for this third party company. This is probably more because of Valve's management structure than it is about any policy. Valve is a flat company with no managers. People work on what they want to work on. Jobs like customer support and policing API use are akin to taking out the trash, nobody wants to do it but someone has to. It just isn't a priority. Anyway, ignorant article with a dishonest attempt at trying to spin two things together "illegal betting!" "valve" and failing.
- eric_h 11y ago
  Good catch, I blew right by that detail on my first read.
- squozzer 11y ago
  With us, it fails. With state attorneys general, it's another pound of flesh.
- 542458 11y ago
  > Valve is in no way involved in betting. Valve makes money when people buy or sell skins, which in this case is akin to buying or cashing in one's poker chips. There's also no way that Valve doesn't know that this is going on. While they're not involved in the strictest sense, they continue to allow this gambling to happen (by not policing their API) and make money by doing so.
  - eric_h 11y ago
    I wonder what the legal implications are for valve here, vs the third parties that are facilitating the gambling. Surely the companies taking bets are also taking a rake (how else would you pay for your infrastructure/support overhead) and this is illegal in most of the US. Does Valve, by indirectly profiting from the wagering exchange actually bear some (legal) responsibility?
nefitty 11y ago
If our brains have a hard time distinguishing between perceptions of reality and imagination, what would make anyone think that currency, or tradeable goods would be any different? Games like Clash of Clans scare the hell out of me already, I can't imagine stumbling into a gambling addiction at 19 years of age... http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/03/01/why-its-scary-when-0-15-mobile-gamers-bring-in-50-of-the-revenue/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/03/01/why-its-sc...
- PavlovsCat 11y ago
  This episode of Black Mirror says it all IMO. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Million_Merits_%28Black_Mirror%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Million_Merits_%28Blac... That is, I think it says more true things (that are more an analogy than an exaggeration) than we're generally able to admit or even process. Our plates are so full that our tiny spoons sometimes strike me as fig leaves rather than eating utensils.
squozzer 11y ago
Does Bobby Kotick know about this?
CyrusL 11y ago
The main fact missing from the article (and the comments here) is that most of the virtual items are initially generated through gambling with Valve. The majority of items in CS:GO are initially generated by purchasing a key (for $2.75) to open a case. The game tells the user that the case contains one of a dozen possible items, but not which item. The act of opening the case generates an item that can be worth anywhere from $0.10 to $10,000. The in-game UI for this process even looks like a slot machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpFlpyZ4eBM&t=1m45s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpFlpyZ4eBM&t=1m45s If you want a specific item, (rather than a random one from a case) you can buy it on the Steam Market. But that's a secondary market where the sellers are other gamers. The items themselves were still initially generated from playing Valve's slot machine game. Valve has a vested interest in maintaining the perception that the items have zero value in real dollars. If the items had real dollar value, then the act of opening cases would make Valve a casino. That's why when you sell your items on the Steam Market, you can only use the proceeds for other items on Steam. The money is steam dollars, not real dollars. There is no "cash-out" mechanism within Steam. Of course, this perception is a farce because there is a large market outside of Steam for selling the items for real dollars. Two popular websites are https://opskins.com/ https://opskins.com/ and https://bitskins.com/ https://bitskins.com/ . I don't believe that Valve can maintain their position that the items have a real dollar value of zero when lots and lots of people are trading them for real dollars. It's sort of like a casino saying the chips are worth zero because the cashier works for a different company. I believe that this is at the root of why Valve is so comfortable with all the 3rd-party gambling sites. Valve has established their position that the items are worthless, so normal rules about money shouldn't apply.
- femto113 11y ago
  It's sort of like a casino saying the chips are worth zero because the cashier works for a different company. This is exactly how pachinko gambling works in Japan. You win a prize (doll, medal, etc.) in the pachinko parlor, and sell it at the "we buy pachinko prizes" place next door.
  - zyxley 11y ago
    That's exactly as much of a farce—it's just one that the authorities haven't cracked down on.
awinter-py 11y ago
satoshidice blocks US IPs. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/bitcoin-gambling-sites-fly-regulatory-radar/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/bitcoin-gambling-sites-f... The core question here ends up being 'how many hops' in two senses: how many hops will users tolerate & how many hops make it legal? Make A >= B and you have yourself an arb. This isn't the only new area of law where levels of indirection matter; it's true with anonymization in online privacy as well.
cloudjacker 11y ago
For some of those guns, I like how the virtual items cost as much as the physical useful items.
- YokoZar 11y ago
  Hopefully you use your in-game gun a lot more than your real one!
  - daodedickinson 11y ago
    The ammo for the virtual one is a lot cheaper. I met a gun collector who liked to play Call of Duty because it had guns he owned in real-life, but in real-life he could only use them at the range or in case of zombie apocalypse. I told him I played Team Fortress 2 and explained what it was and he said "I don't like fantasy games". So there are people out there who try to collect the real and virtual versions in pairs.
- ufo 11y ago
  Interestingly enough, some of the most expensive CSS:GO skins are knives. In theory those should be cheaper than big rifles right? :)
  - rangibaby 11y ago
    Sought-after skins for the most-used rifles are often more expensive than knives. AWP Dragon Lore (doesn't drop from cases) and AK-47 Fire Serpent (only dropped from the very first case) are the most expensive skins AFAIK.
spriggan3 11y ago
The elephant in the room is "supply drop" AKA gambling. That should definitely be regulated.
wnevets 11y ago
Blaming the gambling that's occurring on the virtual goods is quite silly. People aren't gambling the e-guns because they want them, they have a dollar value associated with them. This gambling could just as easily occur with bitcoin.
- JeremyBanks 11y ago
  I've spoken to dozens of gambling addicted teenagers in counter strike. You're mistaken. The guns themselves are a status symbol which, combined with their financial value, makes this way more enticing to them. They see their favourite players (often sponsored by gambling sites) using them, and want to do the same. I've mostly stopped playing the game because it's too depressing and sickening to talk to all of these kids, with undeveloped reasoning faculties, throwing away every cent they get into bets they're convinced they'll win, until it's all gone.
  - wnevets 11y ago
    I have more experience with DoTA2 which is another valve game and virtually (DoTA2 has way more worthless items) the same the situation. You have people who want the status symbol of owning a golden e-hat and are willing to pay for it on the open market. The gambling portion is largely separate situational.
  - marcoperaza 11y ago
    Where are their parents? How are these kids throwing away any substantial amounts of money without their parents knowing? Surprise, if you don't supervise your kids, they do stupid shit like gamble away lots of money. If it wasn't Counter Strike skins, it would be marbles or poker or sports.
    - tamana 11y ago
      The internet is hard to police. Brick and mortar Casinos won't let kids in.
  - tamana 11y ago
huac 11y ago
CSGO gambling is fairly profitable because there is a lot of information asymmetry and a long tail of inexperienced gamblers. I believe that will change, because CS:GO is a more quantifiable game than many others: The goals are easily defined: kill everyone, or defuse the bomb (usually kill everyone). The available stats are pretty representative of how matches go. There is a compounding effect between rounds, since you choose to buy weapons each round based on if you didn't die and still have weapons or how much money you have left. The biggest issue I can think of is how many kids will lose their cash. There's no 18 year old requirement on the internet!
Spooky23 11y ago
So what? If running a sports book dressed like a fantasy sports league is good, why not gamble on virtual junk?
nfbush 11y ago
>"use Valve’s software" Not really that accurate; sure they access the valve servers, however most all of them use custom software made by reverse engineering the steam client called steamkit [1] and it's forks. Steam doesn't provide any public api's for trading. [1]https://github.com/SteamRE/SteamKit https://github.com/SteamRE/SteamKit
gozur88 11y ago
You can make the case that's gambling, but to call this "serious" gambling? That's a stretch.
- mod 11y ago
  Watch csgojackpot.com for a few minutes. Routinely has multi-thousand-dollar pots going off. It's slower than it used to be, but it used to be paying out > 100k/hour. That's just one site, and I not the biggest.
  - ufo 11y ago
    Adding to that, some of the twitch.tv streams with the highest numbers of viewers are people gambling csgo skins. Pretty sad actually...
ufo 11y ago
Its a bit sad to see the gambling sometimes overshadowing the esports sides of things. I'm not a huge CS:GO fan but as a Brazilian the MLG Columbus major was very exciting to follow :)
intrasight 11y ago
An interesting question, at least to me, is if Apple's App Store would allow this form of gambling.
- ryan-allen 11y ago
  Well, many of their top grossing apps are pay to play slot machines, though you can't take money out of the system as far as I know.
  - intrasight 11y ago
    But Steam items can be exchanged on 3rd party sites for real dollars. So let me pose this question. If I created an iOS app whose only purpose was to purchase CS:GO Shadow Cases, would Apple deny the app?
    - ryan-allen 11y ago
      Ah I see the difference now, thanks!
  - montibbalt 11y ago
    Indeed you can't take money out of them, and the various app stores have pretty strict policies about this. Honestly, if Valve gets worried about gambling laws they could learn a few things from casino apps here. There are a few of them out there where you can "buy" something like a hotel comp using an in-game currency. This is actually ok for a number of reasons but two big ones are that: - The currency you use to get these IRL items is not the currency you play with and is not necessarily directly related to real money. It's more akin to frequent flyer miles getting you a free flight. That is to say, it's more "how much you play" and less "how much you pay". - There simply is no secondary market for these IRL items because they're tied to you personally, are non-transferrable, and can't be traded for cash. So while they have real-world value, they're worthless to anyone but you specifically
peferron 11y ago
The annoying thing is the amount of people whining about their losses or gloating about their wins. I couldn't care less about gambling, so to me it just drowns the discussion about the game itself. Not to mention the unpleasantness when I read a tweet by a pro saying "sorry for letting our fans down today" after a loss, and the first reply is some random guy blaming them for the skins they lost. Maybe they're just trolls, maybe they aren't, doesn't really matter. At least during LAN tournaments the casters and analysts almost never mention gambling, and would rather talk about the game and the players. Hope it stays this way.
- tamana 11y ago
  You are upset that people enjoy a videogame differently from you. Maybe the gamblint is the game (that's where the money is made) and the fighting is the sideshow.
  - peferron 11y ago
    If HN news threads suddenly started to be filled with comments such as "made $500 betting on the Falcon 9 first stage to tip over after landing", would you also answer "you are upset that people are interested in news for different reasons than you"? Rather, I would expect the community/mods to either downvote/remove comments about betting, making it clear that betting should be discussed somewhere else, or upvote/tolerate them, making it clear that people who prefer not hearing about betting should go somewhere else. Of course, going somewhere else requires effort, so my selfish hope as someone not interested in betting is that the communities I browse will pick the first option.
wiradikusuma 11y ago
I read the article twice but still don't get how this thing work: are they gambling that certain player(s) with specific skin come up winning? (so the skin makes it easy to identify players)
- arkem 11y ago
  You bet on a team to win. The skins are used in place of currency. Instead of betting $5 I be 3 skins and if I win I get my 3 skins back plus 2 more. Since skins can be traded and sold it's effectively gambling for cash.
tantalor 11y ago
What is keeping gamblers from making bets in "skins" on real sports? Surely there is more interest there than pro CS. Isn't it just a coincidence that the skins originate in CS? If I want to make a bet, does that matter to me?
- eulo__ 11y ago
  Some sites let you bet on Basketball and Soccer using the in game items. VPgame is an example. Their pools aren't nearly as big as the DotA and CS pools though.
69mlgsniperdad 11y ago
That font+letter-spacing+text-shadow is atrocious.
inv13 11y ago
People literally playing 50-50 coin flip games with skins, sometimes with somebody else, or sometimes even just against a "bot". Its pretty crazy. Its started with betting on matches, which i think is kinda okey, but i think coin flip is the end. (cs:go player)
samlittlewood 11y ago
My older son has been engaged with this - mainly DoTA2, CS:GO and H1Z1. He has had a fairly limited budget of real cash in (a few 10s of pounds) - and has taken (and lost) significantly more than that in game through tournament prizes, trades, gambling & drops. My initial impression was rather negative - but I do concede that it has acted as a kind of 'Kerbal Space Program' for markets and gambling - including the spectacular explosions. He now has a far better understanding of supply, demand and timing, along with a healthy respect for probability and risk vs. reward. It may have worked for him because of limited funds (have to go in thru' my card), and there were things inside the system (knife skin) that he really wanted to acquire. I did, however, get him to name that knife 'SSD' in honour of what he could have bought if he cashed out.
- tudorw 11y ago
  When it comes to trading that is one cheap lesson!
CM30 11y ago
So let's get this straight shall we? Apparently, allowing players to gamble in game for real money, fine. Allowing people to gamble for them and then sell them through third party sites, fine. But featuring a casino in a game causes the age rating to go up, even if it's non interactive (at least in Europe)? Letting people gamble with fake money that can't be exchanged for anything outside the game (in a casino esque) setting causes the rating to go up? Yeah, some of the media watchdogs have really screwed up priorities. Apparently they find the Pokemon Game Corner more offensive than the mobile app 'freemium' content or CS:GO case gambling.

134 points by eric_h 11y ago

wcummings 11y ago

>(After leaving Valve, Varoufakis became Greece’s minister of finance.)

mwcmitchell 11y ago
this guys career path
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  Look where it started and what he helped manage: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2013/02/varoufakis_on_v.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2013/02/varoufakis_on_v.htm... A bit unique to say the least.

tantalor 11y ago

> People buy skins for cash, then use the skins to place online bets on pro CS:GO matches. What? Why do they do that? Why not use normal currency?

542458 11y ago
From the gambling house's side it avoids regulation, plain and simple. From the gambler's side: People already own skins (from playing normally) or want skins that would be expensive to buy outright. Gambling provides an exciting way of exchanging them. This kickstarts the gambling market. This initial activity then attracts more serious gamblers looking to make a profit in this low-regulation gambling environment populated by many inexperienced gamblers. Cue feedback loop as more and more serious gamblers get involved.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
zyxley 11y ago
"It's not money, so I'm not gambling, so I don't have to feel back about gambling and losing"
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
prezjordan 11y ago
Because they're children and can't use real money.

throwanem 11y ago

How on Earth did anyone get through that entire article without using the phrase "skin in the game"? I'm not sure whether to be impressed or disappointed.

tempestn 11y ago

It took me a good 15 seconds to read the subtitle with that background repeatedly stabbing me in the eyes. Bloomberg's design aesthetic is certainly unconventional.

giancarlostoro 11y ago
It indeed is a painful image to look at, I don't know why some articles start out like this, I'm not particularly fond of this style for articles I'm trying to read. Not sure when this became a thing, some articles do it right, but if it's done in every single article it doesn't always work out, it's like a place holder wasting my screens real estate.

levemi 11y ago

This story isn't about Valve but the author sure made it seem like it was. A third party site uses Valve's API to enable users to bet skins on esport competitions. This third party site uses Valve's API. Valve is in no way involved in betting. The only thing they haven't done is turn off access to the API for this third party company. This is probably more because of Valve's management structure than it is about any policy. Valve is a flat company with no managers. People work on what they want to work on. Jobs like customer support and policing API use are akin to taking out the trash, nobody wants to do it but someone has to. It just isn't a priority. Anyway, ignorant article with a dishonest attempt at trying to spin two things together "illegal betting!" "valve" and failing.

eric_h 11y ago
Good catch, I blew right by that detail on my first read.
squozzer 11y ago
With us, it fails. With state attorneys general, it's another pound of flesh.
542458 11y ago
> Valve is in no way involved in betting. Valve makes money when people buy or sell skins, which in this case is akin to buying or cashing in one's poker chips. There's also no way that Valve doesn't know that this is going on. While they're not involved in the strictest sense, they continue to allow this gambling to happen (by not policing their API) and make money by doing so.
- eric_h 11y ago
  I wonder what the legal implications are for valve here, vs the third parties that are facilitating the gambling. Surely the companies taking bets are also taking a rake (how else would you pay for your infrastructure/support overhead) and this is illegal in most of the US. Does Valve, by indirectly profiting from the wagering exchange actually bear some (legal) responsibility?

nefitty 11y ago

If our brains have a hard time distinguishing between perceptions of reality and imagination, what would make anyone think that currency, or tradeable goods would be any different? Games like Clash of Clans scare the hell out of me already, I can't imagine stumbling into a gambling addiction at 19 years of age... http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/03/01/why-its-scary-when-0-15-mobile-gamers-bring-in-50-of-the-revenue/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/03/01/why-its-sc...

PavlovsCat 11y ago
This episode of Black Mirror says it all IMO. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Million_Merits_%28Black_Mirror%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Million_Merits_%28Blac... That is, I think it says more true things (that are more an analogy than an exaggeration) than we're generally able to admit or even process. Our plates are so full that our tiny spoons sometimes strike me as fig leaves rather than eating utensils.

squozzer 11y ago

Does Bobby Kotick know about this?

CyrusL 11y ago

The main fact missing from the article (and the comments here) is that most of the virtual items are initially generated through gambling with Valve. The majority of items in CS:GO are initially generated by purchasing a key (for $2.75) to open a case. The game tells the user that the case contains one of a dozen possible items, but not which item. The act of opening the case generates an item that can be worth anywhere from $0.10 to $10,000. The in-game UI for this process even looks like a slot machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpFlpyZ4eBM&t=1m45s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpFlpyZ4eBM&t=1m45s If you want a specific item, (rather than a random one from a case) you can buy it on the Steam Market. But that's a secondary market where the sellers are other gamers. The items themselves were still initially generated from playing Valve's slot machine game. Valve has a vested interest in maintaining the perception that the items have zero value in real dollars. If the items had real dollar value, then the act of opening cases would make Valve a casino. That's why when you sell your items on the Steam Market, you can only use the proceeds for other items on Steam. The money is steam dollars, not real dollars. There is no "cash-out" mechanism within Steam. Of course, this perception is a farce because there is a large market outside of Steam for selling the items for real dollars. Two popular websites are https://opskins.com/ https://opskins.com/ and https://bitskins.com/ https://bitskins.com/ . I don't believe that Valve can maintain their position that the items have a real dollar value of zero when lots and lots of people are trading them for real dollars. It's sort of like a casino saying the chips are worth zero because the cashier works for a different company. I believe that this is at the root of why Valve is so comfortable with all the 3rd-party gambling sites. Valve has established their position that the items are worthless, so normal rules about money shouldn't apply.

femto113 11y ago
It's sort of like a casino saying the chips are worth zero because the cashier works for a different company. This is exactly how pachinko gambling works in Japan. You win a prize (doll, medal, etc.) in the pachinko parlor, and sell it at the "we buy pachinko prizes" place next door.
- zyxley 11y ago
  That's exactly as much of a farce—it's just one that the authorities haven't cracked down on.

awinter-py 11y ago

satoshidice blocks US IPs. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/bitcoin-gambling-sites-fly-regulatory-radar/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/bitcoin-gambling-sites-f... The core question here ends up being 'how many hops' in two senses: how many hops will users tolerate & how many hops make it legal? Make A >= B and you have yourself an arb. This isn't the only new area of law where levels of indirection matter; it's true with anonymization in online privacy as well.

cloudjacker 11y ago

For some of those guns, I like how the virtual items cost as much as the physical useful items.

YokoZar 11y ago
Hopefully you use your in-game gun a lot more than your real one!
- daodedickinson 11y ago
  The ammo for the virtual one is a lot cheaper. I met a gun collector who liked to play Call of Duty because it had guns he owned in real-life, but in real-life he could only use them at the range or in case of zombie apocalypse. I told him I played Team Fortress 2 and explained what it was and he said "I don't like fantasy games". So there are people out there who try to collect the real and virtual versions in pairs.
ufo 11y ago
Interestingly enough, some of the most expensive CSS:GO skins are knives. In theory those should be cheaper than big rifles right? :)
- rangibaby 11y ago
  Sought-after skins for the most-used rifles are often more expensive than knives. AWP Dragon Lore (doesn't drop from cases) and AK-47 Fire Serpent (only dropped from the very first case) are the most expensive skins AFAIK.

spriggan3 11y ago

The elephant in the room is "supply drop" AKA gambling. That should definitely be regulated.

wnevets 11y ago

Blaming the gambling that's occurring on the virtual goods is quite silly. People aren't gambling the e-guns because they want them, they have a dollar value associated with them. This gambling could just as easily occur with bitcoin.

JeremyBanks 11y ago
I've spoken to dozens of gambling addicted teenagers in counter strike. You're mistaken. The guns themselves are a status symbol which, combined with their financial value, makes this way more enticing to them. They see their favourite players (often sponsored by gambling sites) using them, and want to do the same. I've mostly stopped playing the game because it's too depressing and sickening to talk to all of these kids, with undeveloped reasoning faculties, throwing away every cent they get into bets they're convinced they'll win, until it's all gone.
- wnevets 11y ago
  I have more experience with DoTA2 which is another valve game and virtually (DoTA2 has way more worthless items) the same the situation. You have people who want the status symbol of owning a golden e-hat and are willing to pay for it on the open market. The gambling portion is largely separate situational.
- marcoperaza 11y ago
  Where are their parents? How are these kids throwing away any substantial amounts of money without their parents knowing? Surprise, if you don't supervise your kids, they do stupid shit like gamble away lots of money. If it wasn't Counter Strike skins, it would be marbles or poker or sports.
  - tamana 11y ago
    The internet is hard to police. Brick and mortar Casinos won't let kids in.
- tamana 11y ago

huac 11y ago

CSGO gambling is fairly profitable because there is a lot of information asymmetry and a long tail of inexperienced gamblers. I believe that will change, because CS:GO is a more quantifiable game than many others: The goals are easily defined: kill everyone, or defuse the bomb (usually kill everyone). The available stats are pretty representative of how matches go. There is a compounding effect between rounds, since you choose to buy weapons each round based on if you didn't die and still have weapons or how much money you have left. The biggest issue I can think of is how many kids will lose their cash. There's no 18 year old requirement on the internet!

Spooky23 11y ago

So what? If running a sports book dressed like a fantasy sports league is good, why not gamble on virtual junk?

nfbush 11y ago

>"use Valve’s software" Not really that accurate; sure they access the valve servers, however most all of them use custom software made by reverse engineering the steam client called steamkit [1] and it's forks. Steam doesn't provide any public api's for trading. [1]https://github.com/SteamRE/SteamKit https://github.com/SteamRE/SteamKit

gozur88 11y ago

You can make the case that's gambling, but to call this "serious" gambling? That's a stretch.

mod 11y ago
Watch csgojackpot.com for a few minutes. Routinely has multi-thousand-dollar pots going off. It's slower than it used to be, but it used to be paying out > 100k/hour. That's just one site, and I not the biggest.
- ufo 11y ago
  Adding to that, some of the twitch.tv streams with the highest numbers of viewers are people gambling csgo skins. Pretty sad actually...

ufo 11y ago

Its a bit sad to see the gambling sometimes overshadowing the esports sides of things. I'm not a huge CS:GO fan but as a Brazilian the MLG Columbus major was very exciting to follow :)

intrasight 11y ago

An interesting question, at least to me, is if Apple's App Store would allow this form of gambling.

ryan-allen 11y ago
Well, many of their top grossing apps are pay to play slot machines, though you can't take money out of the system as far as I know.
- intrasight 11y ago
  But Steam items can be exchanged on 3rd party sites for real dollars. So let me pose this question. If I created an iOS app whose only purpose was to purchase CS:GO Shadow Cases, would Apple deny the app?
  - ryan-allen 11y ago
    Ah I see the difference now, thanks!
- montibbalt 11y ago
  Indeed you can't take money out of them, and the various app stores have pretty strict policies about this. Honestly, if Valve gets worried about gambling laws they could learn a few things from casino apps here. There are a few of them out there where you can "buy" something like a hotel comp using an in-game currency. This is actually ok for a number of reasons but two big ones are that: - The currency you use to get these IRL items is not the currency you play with and is not necessarily directly related to real money. It's more akin to frequent flyer miles getting you a free flight. That is to say, it's more "how much you play" and less "how much you pay". - There simply is no secondary market for these IRL items because they're tied to you personally, are non-transferrable, and can't be traded for cash. So while they have real-world value, they're worthless to anyone but you specifically

peferron 11y ago

The annoying thing is the amount of people whining about their losses or gloating about their wins. I couldn't care less about gambling, so to me it just drowns the discussion about the game itself. Not to mention the unpleasantness when I read a tweet by a pro saying "sorry for letting our fans down today" after a loss, and the first reply is some random guy blaming them for the skins they lost. Maybe they're just trolls, maybe they aren't, doesn't really matter. At least during LAN tournaments the casters and analysts almost never mention gambling, and would rather talk about the game and the players. Hope it stays this way.

tamana 11y ago
You are upset that people enjoy a videogame differently from you. Maybe the gamblint is the game (that's where the money is made) and the fighting is the sideshow.
- peferron 11y ago
  If HN news threads suddenly started to be filled with comments such as "made $500 betting on the Falcon 9 first stage to tip over after landing", would you also answer "you are upset that people are interested in news for different reasons than you"? Rather, I would expect the community/mods to either downvote/remove comments about betting, making it clear that betting should be discussed somewhere else, or upvote/tolerate them, making it clear that people who prefer not hearing about betting should go somewhere else. Of course, going somewhere else requires effort, so my selfish hope as someone not interested in betting is that the communities I browse will pick the first option.

wiradikusuma 11y ago

I read the article twice but still don't get how this thing work: are they gambling that certain player(s) with specific skin come up winning? (so the skin makes it easy to identify players)

arkem 11y ago
You bet on a team to win. The skins are used in place of currency. Instead of betting $5 I be 3 skins and if I win I get my 3 skins back plus 2 more. Since skins can be traded and sold it's effectively gambling for cash.

tantalor 11y ago

What is keeping gamblers from making bets in "skins" on real sports? Surely there is more interest there than pro CS. Isn't it just a coincidence that the skins originate in CS? If I want to make a bet, does that matter to me?

eulo__ 11y ago
Some sites let you bet on Basketball and Soccer using the in game items. VPgame is an example. Their pools aren't nearly as big as the DotA and CS pools though.

69mlgsniperdad 11y ago

That font+letter-spacing+text-shadow is atrocious.

inv13 11y ago

People literally playing 50-50 coin flip games with skins, sometimes with somebody else, or sometimes even just against a "bot". Its pretty crazy. Its started with betting on matches, which i think is kinda okey, but i think coin flip is the end. (cs:go player)

samlittlewood 11y ago

My older son has been engaged with this - mainly DoTA2, CS:GO and H1Z1. He has had a fairly limited budget of real cash in (a few 10s of pounds) - and has taken (and lost) significantly more than that in game through tournament prizes, trades, gambling & drops. My initial impression was rather negative - but I do concede that it has acted as a kind of 'Kerbal Space Program' for markets and gambling - including the spectacular explosions. He now has a far better understanding of supply, demand and timing, along with a healthy respect for probability and risk vs. reward. It may have worked for him because of limited funds (have to go in thru' my card), and there were things inside the system (knife skin) that he really wanted to acquire. I did, however, get him to name that knife 'SSD' in honour of what he could have bought if he cashed out.

tudorw 11y ago
When it comes to trading that is one cheap lesson!

CM30 11y ago

So let's get this straight shall we? Apparently, allowing players to gamble in game for real money, fine. Allowing people to gamble for them and then sell them through third party sites, fine. But featuring a casino in a game causes the age rating to go up, even if it's non interactive (at least in Europe)? Letting people gamble with fake money that can't be exchanged for anything outside the game (in a casino esque) setting causes the rating to go up? Yeah, some of the media watchdogs have really screwed up priorities. Apparently they find the Pokemon Game Corner more offensive than the mobile app 'freemium' content or CS:GO case gambling.