8 ms·

It's difficult to imagine what your worldview would be like growing up around such a high level of propaganda from a young age. Every piece of visual media you

It's difficult to imagine what your worldview would be like growing up around such a high level of propaganda from a young age. Every piece of visual media you have ever encountered trying to subvert your view of the world. (I guess not too dissimilar to our own lives, on a smaller scale of course).

nxzero 11y ago
This is true for any "culture" - N.Korea is just not very good at it.
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
It's true of every society to some extent. The West's less overt tactics are arguably more effective than Soviet-style propaganda because they're less obvious.
- sangnoir 11y ago
  > The West's less overt tactics are arguably more effective than Soviet-style propaganda because they're less obvious. America has pretty overt propaganda, e.g. the Pentagon paying the NFL millions to 'salute the troops'. As a non-American, seeing young children reciting the pledge of allegiance in unison is downright creepy. I'm guessing Americans do not have alternative experiences and hence consider it to be normal. I'm guessing the same applies to Koreans growing up in Korea: it's normal. I'm not suggesting the levels of propaganda are in the same ball-park.
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
    As an American I find schoolchildren reciting the pledge of allegiance in the morning very disturbing. Especially ones who are much to young to actually understand what they are saying. And it always happened in every primary school I went to.
    - 0xfeba 11y ago
      To add to the creepiness, when a child sits for the pledge (legal, AFAIK) and is punished. Add the comments from supposedly rational adults on the local news article about it... and you see some people really take forced patriotism seriously.
      - nommm-nommm 11y ago
        Nobody can be forced to stand for the pledge or recite it. (West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette[1]) however uninformed school board may illegally punish students anyway or become vindictive in other ways. By not standing for the pledge a kid risks being seen as a troublemaker or "difficult" which can cloud a teacher's judgements in other matters. Making it part of the school day makes no sense for just that reason. Certain religious groups (ex Jehovah's Witnesses) are against pledging allegiance to a flag and it's unfair to put a student in that situation for something so silly as the pledge of allegiance. But as you said some people feel very strongly about this sort of fake and forced ritual. I have a big problem with teaching it to very young kids who don't really don't have the capacity yet to really understand what it means or what they are pledging to. Most kids kinda slur their way through it because it contains vocabulary that the typical 5 year old wouldn't have. [2] [1] "The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us." [2] I used to say "I pledge OF allegiance to the flag....under god, invisible..."
  - jordigh 11y ago
    We did a flag pledge in Mexico too. I wonder if we copied that from the gringos. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juramento_a_la_Bandera_%28M%C3%A9xico%29 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juramento_a_la_Bandera_%28M%C3... Hm, looking around looks like Argentina and Panama also have similar pledges: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandera_de_Panam%C3%A1#Juramento https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandera_de_Panam%C3%A1#Juramen... https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandera_de_la_Argentina#Juramento_a_la_bandera https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandera_de_la_Argentina#Jurame... I wonder if it's just a generalised American thing to be this defensive of our flags, perhaps as a result of some post-colonial concerns.
  - throwanem 11y ago
    > As a non-American, seeing young children reciting the pledge of allegiance in unison is downright creepy. The practice dates from the heyday of Hitlerism, and arguably springs from much the same sort of motivation - and it's creepy enough before you read about the Bellamy salute.
  - mindslight 11y ago
    While some of the US's propaganda is the direct overt military type, most of it is dressed up as "news" or "entertainment". This year especially, look at the fervor of support for The Party(s). It's amazing how adding a narrow choice sidesteps people's inherent distrust for being told what to do.
- kuschku 11y ago
  It’s quite interesting to see Russian or American propaganda when you’re not from either – the patriotism, nationalism, corporatism and anti-intellectualism in the US seems so weird. Almost as weird as Russia. I mean, doesn’t kids singing the national anthem in the morning before school seem a bit weird to you, too?
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    As a non-American (I'm British, arguably), the whole American flag saluting/pledge of allegiance/national anthem thing has always seemed excessively patriotic. I doubt many people in the UK could remember the national anthem beyond the first verse, and if required to make a pledge of allegiance, I imagine many would refuse. But that's probably because it's a less important identity to people in the UK. It's not a country of immigrants, there is more than just national identity to hold people together.
    - gerardnll 11y ago
      Totally agree, and I'm from Spain.
    - Kurtz79 11y ago
      Not British, but I guess the different national identities (English, Scottish, Welsh...) in the Kingdom play a major role, also considering the fact that one of them has had a fairly dominant role along its history. Would a Scotsman or Northern Irishman identifies himself as such to a foreigner, rather than British ?
      - CapitalistCartr 11y ago
        The non-English Brits say that any time a Scottish, Welsh, or Irish person does something good, the press describes them as British; something bad, the press call out their nationality; but that the press do the reverse for the English.
      - kaybe 11y ago
        The travelling Scots I meet usually do. It seems very important to them.
ogig 11y ago
Don't understimate the effect that media and ads has on our society.
kevinbluer 11y ago
Even though I believe it's been proven to be some form of hoax (although I'm not sure if it's been proven by whom), http://propagandafilm.net http://propagandafilm.net is highly worth a watch. There are moments when it truly feels like the above statement equally applies to "us" as it does to "them".
naivepiano 11y ago
which makes me wonder what if myself is also brainwashed to the western propaganda...like "the man in the high castle"

nxzero 11y ago

This is true for any "culture" - N.Korea is just not very good at it.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

It's true of every society to some extent. The West's less overt tactics are arguably more effective than Soviet-style propaganda because they're less obvious.

sangnoir 11y ago
> The West's less overt tactics are arguably more effective than Soviet-style propaganda because they're less obvious. America has pretty overt propaganda, e.g. the Pentagon paying the NFL millions to 'salute the troops'. As a non-American, seeing young children reciting the pledge of allegiance in unison is downright creepy. I'm guessing Americans do not have alternative experiences and hence consider it to be normal. I'm guessing the same applies to Koreans growing up in Korea: it's normal. I'm not suggesting the levels of propaganda are in the same ball-park.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  As an American I find schoolchildren reciting the pledge of allegiance in the morning very disturbing. Especially ones who are much to young to actually understand what they are saying. And it always happened in every primary school I went to.
  - 0xfeba 11y ago
    To add to the creepiness, when a child sits for the pledge (legal, AFAIK) and is punished. Add the comments from supposedly rational adults on the local news article about it... and you see some people really take forced patriotism seriously.
    - nommm-nommm 11y ago
      Nobody can be forced to stand for the pledge or recite it. (West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette[1]) however uninformed school board may illegally punish students anyway or become vindictive in other ways. By not standing for the pledge a kid risks being seen as a troublemaker or "difficult" which can cloud a teacher's judgements in other matters. Making it part of the school day makes no sense for just that reason. Certain religious groups (ex Jehovah's Witnesses) are against pledging allegiance to a flag and it's unfair to put a student in that situation for something so silly as the pledge of allegiance. But as you said some people feel very strongly about this sort of fake and forced ritual. I have a big problem with teaching it to very young kids who don't really don't have the capacity yet to really understand what it means or what they are pledging to. Most kids kinda slur their way through it because it contains vocabulary that the typical 5 year old wouldn't have. [2] [1] "The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us." [2] I used to say "I pledge OF allegiance to the flag....under god, invisible..."
- jordigh 11y ago
  We did a flag pledge in Mexico too. I wonder if we copied that from the gringos. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juramento_a_la_Bandera_%28M%C3%A9xico%29 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juramento_a_la_Bandera_%28M%C3... Hm, looking around looks like Argentina and Panama also have similar pledges: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandera_de_Panam%C3%A1#Juramento https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandera_de_Panam%C3%A1#Juramen... https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandera_de_la_Argentina#Juramento_a_la_bandera https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandera_de_la_Argentina#Jurame... I wonder if it's just a generalised American thing to be this defensive of our flags, perhaps as a result of some post-colonial concerns.
- throwanem 11y ago
  > As a non-American, seeing young children reciting the pledge of allegiance in unison is downright creepy. The practice dates from the heyday of Hitlerism, and arguably springs from much the same sort of motivation - and it's creepy enough before you read about the Bellamy salute.
- mindslight 11y ago
  While some of the US's propaganda is the direct overt military type, most of it is dressed up as "news" or "entertainment". This year especially, look at the fervor of support for The Party(s). It's amazing how adding a narrow choice sidesteps people's inherent distrust for being told what to do.
kuschku 11y ago
It’s quite interesting to see Russian or American propaganda when you’re not from either – the patriotism, nationalism, corporatism and anti-intellectualism in the US seems so weird. Almost as weird as Russia. I mean, doesn’t kids singing the national anthem in the morning before school seem a bit weird to you, too?
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  As a non-American (I'm British, arguably), the whole American flag saluting/pledge of allegiance/national anthem thing has always seemed excessively patriotic. I doubt many people in the UK could remember the national anthem beyond the first verse, and if required to make a pledge of allegiance, I imagine many would refuse. But that's probably because it's a less important identity to people in the UK. It's not a country of immigrants, there is more than just national identity to hold people together.
  - gerardnll 11y ago
    Totally agree, and I'm from Spain.
  - Kurtz79 11y ago
    Not British, but I guess the different national identities (English, Scottish, Welsh...) in the Kingdom play a major role, also considering the fact that one of them has had a fairly dominant role along its history. Would a Scotsman or Northern Irishman identifies himself as such to a foreigner, rather than British ?
    - CapitalistCartr 11y ago
      The non-English Brits say that any time a Scottish, Welsh, or Irish person does something good, the press describes them as British; something bad, the press call out their nationality; but that the press do the reverse for the English.
    - kaybe 11y ago
      The travelling Scots I meet usually do. It seems very important to them.

ogig 11y ago

Don't understimate the effect that media and ads has on our society.

kevinbluer 11y ago

Even though I believe it's been proven to be some form of hoax (although I'm not sure if it's been proven by whom), http://propagandafilm.net http://propagandafilm.net is highly worth a watch. There are moments when it truly feels like the above statement equally applies to "us" as it does to "them".

naivepiano 11y ago

which makes me wonder what if myself is also brainwashed to the western propaganda...like "the man in the high castle"