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“I sincerely believe that what the West is doing in this respect is anti-development and anti the fight against climate change,” he said, accusing rich countrie

“I sincerely believe that what the West is doing in this respect is anti-development and anti the fight against climate change,” he said, accusing rich countries of charging too much for clean technology." I really don't believe any country is sincere towards climate change. Every country puts their economy before others. So expecting another economy to help you is a foolish assumption.

shirro 11y ago
Sincerity varies. There can be economic advantages in moving towards renewables if you do it right as you develop new companies and technologies. One thing is for sure though, every oligarchy puts their mates before others. http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/coalition-wants-to-build-1-2gw-coal-plant-using-climate-funds-73755 http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/coalition-wants-to-build-1-2...
beedogs 11y ago
It doesn't help that the developed countries want to flog off their increasingly-worthless coal reserves to developing countries.
- forgetsusername 11y ago
  I know, right? Why do those rich western countries like Indonesia and Colombia dump their worthless coal reserves into poor countries like the US, Germany, Japan and China?
noisy_boy 11y ago
You are correct that every country puts their economy before others. However, India is not asking another economy to help them. India can develop its solar energy sector by itself. The west accuses the developing countries to be big polluters since they use less environmentally-friendly means of energy production. Then when countries like India try to subsidize the domestic solar energy market, WTO accuses them of illegally supporting domestic over international solar producers. Its like you are called a drug-addict first and when you try to wean off it on your own, you are accused of cheating the rehab centres. Excellent example of double standards.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- davedx 11y ago
  > India can develop its solar energy sector by itself. Until the US sues them and the WTO rules against them. http://in.reuters.com/article/usa-india-solar-idINKCN0QV2FD20150827 http://in.reuters.com/article/usa-india-solar-idINKCN0QV2FD2...
  - TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
    India wants 8% domestic production, and the US has a cry. What a bully. How does the WTO enforce that sort of ruling? India has The Bomb.
    - harryf 11y ago
      Because 8% of India is huge - that would mean India has a functioning solar energy tech sector - perhaps one that might be able to compete worldwide
      - mcv 11y ago
        8% of India is bigger than many entire countries. If India can export this and compete world wide, that's enormous.
    - _nedR 11y ago
      America believes in free trade as long as they are able to crush the competition like a bug even before it gets started off the ground. If you can have local producers that have 8% market share, then they might actually have a sliver of a chance to survive and compete in the market place, and thats unacceptable. Yep, free and fair.
    - dexterdog 11y ago
      But I think the US has their launch codes
    - 11y ago
tim333 11y ago
It's ironic that a couple of sentences after "accusing rich countries of charging too much" he's complaining about the WTO ruling "India was illegally supporting domestic over international solar producers." Either the evil foreigners are too expensive or too cheap requiring protection for local producers. Or both at the same time maybe.
- emp_zealoth 11y ago
  Or maybe India does not want to bleed billions away with barely anything to show for it (Yes, they get the infrastructure, but the tech is proprietary and foreign and potentially an endless drain) Instead they try to develop inhouse production that they own and have to cover the initial capital costs. There was a theory in ~19th century that Portugal/Spain trading wine for machinery from Great Britain mean it was equal to growing said machinery on fields - Britain shot away technologically and that was that. (I can't find the name of the theory though :/)
  - saurik 11y ago
    You are thinking of Ricardo's Comparative Advantage; and it is a little more complex than that they got machines: they traded for cloth, which was made with machines that the British then spent the time to improve and learn from, giving them eventual advantages in numerous other fields. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/free-trade-us-unemployment_b_945805.html http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/free-trade-us-unemployment_b_...
  - JackFr 11y ago
    > Instead they try to develop inhouse production that they own and have to cover the initial capital costs. Then provide tax credits and advantageous financing. A local content minimum insures that the local industry faces no incentive to become competitive and is simply a sinecure for well connected and politically powerful industrialists.
teekert 11y ago
They certainly are not. Here in the Netherlands we are mostly coal and gas based for electricity yet we want to (unrealistically) ban sales of fossil fuel powered cars. We also raised import taxes on Chinese solar panels, raising the price of solar installations significantly here. It's all for show.
- Aeolun 11y ago
  Why would we raise prices on ANY solar panels? That seems self-defeating to me. It doesn't really matter where they come from. Any solar panels are good solar panels.
  - teekert 11y ago
    To stimulate local production. But local producers just raised their prices. And, when the new import tax was announced it immediately resulted in shortages because companies kept solar panels in stock to sell them after they raised their prices. Sounds like some good lobbying to me.
    - davedx 11y ago
      Shortages? Raised prices? I've been tracking prices for solar for the last couple of years, and I've only seen them go down. Pulled the trigger and purchased our own install because they went down yet again this year.
      - teekert 11y ago
        Google on "importheffing zonnepanelen" for the reports. I don't have solar panels, I just read the reports from time to time, your input is more valuable.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    The excuse was that the Chinese were dumping and local solar industry in the US/EU needed protection. The likely actual reason was that fossil fuel companies demanded it and Obama/EU thought he/they could sell it to the public.
ptaipale 11y ago
It's a bit strange to say that "rich countries" are "charging too much for clean technology". The countries generally don't own, operate or even develop the technology. The countries don't charge for it. Individual companies, people, innovators make new technology, and they charge as much as they can, as much as the technology is worth to buyers. If "rich countries" mess things up, it's through subsidies to solar, wind etc. which is suposedly bringing the price down, not up (though this may be inefficient). Many countries in the so-called "developing" world, particularly those with oil-based economies such as Malaysia, Saudi-Arabia or Venezuela, are subsidising oil and coal based fuels to their population.
- fiftyacorn 11y ago
  They are charging in the sense that the policies seeks to maintain the monopolies or positions of existing energy providers. An example being Spain where people have became energy independent, yet still have to pay to maintain the electricity companies infrastructure
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    You could argue that rich countries are charging too much from their own residents, but what does the energy minister of India have to complain about that? Spaniards certainly can complain about these policies, but I don't see how Piyush Goyal can.
nxzero 11y ago
>> "expecting another economy to help you is a foolish assumption." He's not requesting other countries help them, he's requesting other countries help themselves. Dependence on coal and being a last major country to replace coal with solar is foolish. Engery defines economies, and solar is the future.
eveningcoffee 11y ago
"I sincerely believe that what the West is doing in this respect is anti-development and anti the fight against climate change,” he said, accusing rich countries of charging too much for clean technology." Look who is talking: http://visualizingeconomics.com/blog/2007/12/09/comparing-population-growth-china-india-africa-latin-america-western-europe-united-states http://visualizingeconomics.com/blog/2007/12/09/comparing-po... Until countries like India do not take steps towards sustainable human population, these are all pointless games.
hackuser 11y ago
> Every country puts their economy before others. So expecting another economy to help you is a foolish assumption. Wealthy nations have been helping poorer ones for generations. Major institutions are devoted to it, such as the World Bank, World Health Organization, UNICEF, PEPFAR, and many, many more. The world isn't entirely altruistic, of course, but there's a trendy notion these days, a sort of Ayn Randian (or Objectivist) idea, that it's entirely, unavoidably selfish, which is just as unrealistic. Also, note that India is offering to help poorer nations with solar power, for free.

shirro 11y ago

Sincerity varies. There can be economic advantages in moving towards renewables if you do it right as you develop new companies and technologies. One thing is for sure though, every oligarchy puts their mates before others. http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/coalition-wants-to-build-1-2gw-coal-plant-using-climate-funds-73755 http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/coalition-wants-to-build-1-2...

beedogs 11y ago

It doesn't help that the developed countries want to flog off their increasingly-worthless coal reserves to developing countries.

forgetsusername 11y ago
I know, right? Why do those rich western countries like Indonesia and Colombia dump their worthless coal reserves into poor countries like the US, Germany, Japan and China?

noisy_boy 11y ago

You are correct that every country puts their economy before others. However, India is not asking another economy to help them. India can develop its solar energy sector by itself. The west accuses the developing countries to be big polluters since they use less environmentally-friendly means of energy production. Then when countries like India try to subsidize the domestic solar energy market, WTO accuses them of illegally supporting domestic over international solar producers. Its like you are called a drug-addict first and when you try to wean off it on your own, you are accused of cheating the rehab centres. Excellent example of double standards.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
davedx 11y ago
> India can develop its solar energy sector by itself. Until the US sues them and the WTO rules against them. http://in.reuters.com/article/usa-india-solar-idINKCN0QV2FD20150827 http://in.reuters.com/article/usa-india-solar-idINKCN0QV2FD2...
- TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
  India wants 8% domestic production, and the US has a cry. What a bully. How does the WTO enforce that sort of ruling? India has The Bomb.
  - harryf 11y ago
    Because 8% of India is huge - that would mean India has a functioning solar energy tech sector - perhaps one that might be able to compete worldwide
    - mcv 11y ago
      8% of India is bigger than many entire countries. If India can export this and compete world wide, that's enormous.
  - _nedR 11y ago
    America believes in free trade as long as they are able to crush the competition like a bug even before it gets started off the ground. If you can have local producers that have 8% market share, then they might actually have a sliver of a chance to survive and compete in the market place, and thats unacceptable. Yep, free and fair.
  - dexterdog 11y ago
    But I think the US has their launch codes
  - 11y ago

tim333 11y ago

It's ironic that a couple of sentences after "accusing rich countries of charging too much" he's complaining about the WTO ruling "India was illegally supporting domestic over international solar producers." Either the evil foreigners are too expensive or too cheap requiring protection for local producers. Or both at the same time maybe.

emp_zealoth 11y ago
Or maybe India does not want to bleed billions away with barely anything to show for it (Yes, they get the infrastructure, but the tech is proprietary and foreign and potentially an endless drain) Instead they try to develop inhouse production that they own and have to cover the initial capital costs. There was a theory in ~19th century that Portugal/Spain trading wine for machinery from Great Britain mean it was equal to growing said machinery on fields - Britain shot away technologically and that was that. (I can't find the name of the theory though :/)
- saurik 11y ago
  You are thinking of Ricardo's Comparative Advantage; and it is a little more complex than that they got machines: they traded for cloth, which was made with machines that the British then spent the time to improve and learn from, giving them eventual advantages in numerous other fields. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/free-trade-us-unemployment_b_945805.html http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/free-trade-us-unemployment_b_...
- JackFr 11y ago
  > Instead they try to develop inhouse production that they own and have to cover the initial capital costs. Then provide tax credits and advantageous financing. A local content minimum insures that the local industry faces no incentive to become competitive and is simply a sinecure for well connected and politically powerful industrialists.

teekert 11y ago

They certainly are not. Here in the Netherlands we are mostly coal and gas based for electricity yet we want to (unrealistically) ban sales of fossil fuel powered cars. We also raised import taxes on Chinese solar panels, raising the price of solar installations significantly here. It's all for show.

Aeolun 11y ago
Why would we raise prices on ANY solar panels? That seems self-defeating to me. It doesn't really matter where they come from. Any solar panels are good solar panels.
- teekert 11y ago
  To stimulate local production. But local producers just raised their prices. And, when the new import tax was announced it immediately resulted in shortages because companies kept solar panels in stock to sell them after they raised their prices. Sounds like some good lobbying to me.
  - davedx 11y ago
    Shortages? Raised prices? I've been tracking prices for solar for the last couple of years, and I've only seen them go down. Pulled the trigger and purchased our own install because they went down yet again this year.
    - teekert 11y ago
      Google on "importheffing zonnepanelen" for the reports. I don't have solar panels, I just read the reports from time to time, your input is more valuable.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  The excuse was that the Chinese were dumping and local solar industry in the US/EU needed protection. The likely actual reason was that fossil fuel companies demanded it and Obama/EU thought he/they could sell it to the public.

ptaipale 11y ago

It's a bit strange to say that "rich countries" are "charging too much for clean technology". The countries generally don't own, operate or even develop the technology. The countries don't charge for it. Individual companies, people, innovators make new technology, and they charge as much as they can, as much as the technology is worth to buyers. If "rich countries" mess things up, it's through subsidies to solar, wind etc. which is suposedly bringing the price down, not up (though this may be inefficient). Many countries in the so-called "developing" world, particularly those with oil-based economies such as Malaysia, Saudi-Arabia or Venezuela, are subsidising oil and coal based fuels to their population.

fiftyacorn 11y ago
They are charging in the sense that the policies seeks to maintain the monopolies or positions of existing energy providers. An example being Spain where people have became energy independent, yet still have to pay to maintain the electricity companies infrastructure
- ptaipale 11y ago
  You could argue that rich countries are charging too much from their own residents, but what does the energy minister of India have to complain about that? Spaniards certainly can complain about these policies, but I don't see how Piyush Goyal can.

nxzero 11y ago

>> "expecting another economy to help you is a foolish assumption." He's not requesting other countries help them, he's requesting other countries help themselves. Dependence on coal and being a last major country to replace coal with solar is foolish. Engery defines economies, and solar is the future.

eveningcoffee 11y ago

"I sincerely believe that what the West is doing in this respect is anti-development and anti the fight against climate change,” he said, accusing rich countries of charging too much for clean technology." Look who is talking: http://visualizingeconomics.com/blog/2007/12/09/comparing-population-growth-china-india-africa-latin-america-western-europe-united-states http://visualizingeconomics.com/blog/2007/12/09/comparing-po... Until countries like India do not take steps towards sustainable human population, these are all pointless games.

hackuser 11y ago

> Every country puts their economy before others. So expecting another economy to help you is a foolish assumption. Wealthy nations have been helping poorer ones for generations. Major institutions are devoted to it, such as the World Bank, World Health Organization, UNICEF, PEPFAR, and many, many more. The world isn't entirely altruistic, of course, but there's a trendy notion these days, a sort of Ayn Randian (or Objectivist) idea, that it's entirely, unavoidably selfish, which is just as unrealistic. Also, note that India is offering to help poorer nations with solar power, for free.