4 ms·

Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment. (I include that extreme bullying in it.) When a number of ind

by scott_s 11y ago

Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment. (I include that extreme bullying in it.) When a number of individual assholes are allowed to continue being assholes, and you need to have a "look out for yourself attitude", that is a systemic problem. I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you.

goodcanadian 11y ago
I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you. So, I just had lunch with my wife, and she pretty much agrees with my take. She views her main problem as the act of a single, albeit misogynist, individual, and not a symptom of a systemic problem. Moreover, she expressed surprise (like myself) at the suggestion that astronomy is full of sexual harassment. She can't imagine my colleagues or former colleagues being like that. That is not to say that problems we can't see don't exist, of course.
matwood 11y ago
I always wonder at what point does bullying and the like become genuine illegal harassment? I have worked with assholes who bullied and acted like children, but I dealt with it and moved on. If my wife had worked with the same person does that make the bully's actions now something that is illegal? I've done some reading on this and it is never quite clear. It seems like if the asshole is an asshole to everyone it is fine. Only if they pick a protected class to be an asshole to does it become a problem.
- Trombone12 11y ago
  Presumably the law has the standard for all genders, though in practice they tend to not be gender neutral in their use of pronouns, and courts have expectations of what is acceptable largely defined by traditional gender roles. I would wish that bullying that is illegal when directed at your wife is illegal when directed at you (modulo gender specific forms). In practice I'm sure it depends on how manly you are compared with her.
goodcanadian 11y ago
I said she hadn't experienced sexual harassment. You are correct that the bullying constituted harassment. I was not trying to say that it doesn't exist; I was just trying to offer my thoughts on the article. The title says, "For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare." I have worked in Astronomy my entire career, but I have not seen it at all (perhaps, because I am male). My wife works in a different STEM field, and while she has experienced harassment, possibly due to her gender, it was not sexual harassment. For the record, I believe the stories in the article, and I am very saddened by them.
- scott_s 11y ago
  My point is that the harassment your wife has experienced may in fact be sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is not limited to harassment of a sexual nature. If the harassment was because she is a woman, that falls under sexual harassment as well: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm
  - yorwba 11y ago
    Although the site you linked is titled "Sexual Harassment", it appears to me to be talking about harassment in general > Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature. Even if I am misreading this, I would rather call it "sexist harassment" to make clear that is not itself of a sexual nature.
    - scott_s 11y ago
      The very next paragraph: "Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general." This is what the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission considers "sexual harassment". You may not like these definitions, but this is the government's definition of "sexual harassment".
AnthonyMouse 11y ago
> Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment. It seems to matter quite a lot to people whether harassment is characterized as gender-based or not, and we don't have any apparent evidence that it is. Though I've never really been sure why being a jerk to someone because they're a woman should be any different than being a jerk in exactly the same way for some entirely different (yet no doubt equally stupid) reason.
- scott_s 11y ago
  Your last question is a good one, and the pithy answer is, because it's against the law. But the real answer is that it's against the law because gender discrimination and sexual harassment (and a single act can be both) are such a systemic problem that we had to create laws to address it specifically.
  - AnthonyMouse 11y ago
    Which then end up being less effective because they require proving the offender's state of mind.

by scott_s 11y ago

goodcanadian 11y ago

I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you. So, I just had lunch with my wife, and she pretty much agrees with my take. She views her main problem as the act of a single, albeit misogynist, individual, and not a symptom of a systemic problem. Moreover, she expressed surprise (like myself) at the suggestion that astronomy is full of sexual harassment. She can't imagine my colleagues or former colleagues being like that. That is not to say that problems we can't see don't exist, of course.

matwood 11y ago

I always wonder at what point does bullying and the like become genuine illegal harassment? I have worked with assholes who bullied and acted like children, but I dealt with it and moved on. If my wife had worked with the same person does that make the bully's actions now something that is illegal? I've done some reading on this and it is never quite clear. It seems like if the asshole is an asshole to everyone it is fine. Only if they pick a protected class to be an asshole to does it become a problem.

Trombone12 11y ago
Presumably the law has the standard for all genders, though in practice they tend to not be gender neutral in their use of pronouns, and courts have expectations of what is acceptable largely defined by traditional gender roles. I would wish that bullying that is illegal when directed at your wife is illegal when directed at you (modulo gender specific forms). In practice I'm sure it depends on how manly you are compared with her.

goodcanadian 11y ago

I said she hadn't experienced sexual harassment. You are correct that the bullying constituted harassment. I was not trying to say that it doesn't exist; I was just trying to offer my thoughts on the article. The title says, "For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare." I have worked in Astronomy my entire career, but I have not seen it at all (perhaps, because I am male). My wife works in a different STEM field, and while she has experienced harassment, possibly due to her gender, it was not sexual harassment. For the record, I believe the stories in the article, and I am very saddened by them.

scott_s 11y ago
My point is that the harassment your wife has experienced may in fact be sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is not limited to harassment of a sexual nature. If the harassment was because she is a woman, that falls under sexual harassment as well: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm
- yorwba 11y ago
  Although the site you linked is titled "Sexual Harassment", it appears to me to be talking about harassment in general > Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature. Even if I am misreading this, I would rather call it "sexist harassment" to make clear that is not itself of a sexual nature.
  - scott_s 11y ago
    The very next paragraph: "Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general." This is what the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission considers "sexual harassment". You may not like these definitions, but this is the government's definition of "sexual harassment".

AnthonyMouse 11y ago

> Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment. It seems to matter quite a lot to people whether harassment is characterized as gender-based or not, and we don't have any apparent evidence that it is. Though I've never really been sure why being a jerk to someone because they're a woman should be any different than being a jerk in exactly the same way for some entirely different (yet no doubt equally stupid) reason.

scott_s 11y ago
Your last question is a good one, and the pithy answer is, because it's against the law. But the real answer is that it's against the law because gender discrimination and sexual harassment (and a single act can be both) are such a systemic problem that we had to create laws to address it specifically.
- AnthonyMouse 11y ago
  Which then end up being less effective because they require proving the offender's state of mind.