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I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of b

I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring. My wife is an academic (biology). Thankfully, so far as I know, she has never had to deal with sexual harassment. She did have an experience of dealing with an extreme bully during her PhD (who threatened her career and the like; pro-tip: individual assholes generally don't have the power to destroy your career). The university was not at all supportive, but her PhD advisor was, so things generally worked out in the end, but it was a lot of stress along the way. Besides that, she has suffered the occasional subtle discrimination for being a woman or a mother, generally from older males in the field, but all in all, I don't think she would say that harassment is rife. I think she would pin the problems on individual assholes rather than a systemic problem in science. You do need to look out for yourself, however, as the institutions generally won't, and I do find that a bit sad.

wfo 11y ago
Biology is one of the most female-friendly STEM fields out there. I've met female biologists, plenty of them. The article describes astrophysics as 90%, 95% male at many of these universities. I think it's likely that the issues aren't quite as systemic in fields which are a little more diverse, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't a cultural, systemic one in astrophysics.
- goodcanadian 11y ago
  I get what you are saying; however, I have not witnessed this behaviour (perhaps, because I am male). If it was really a cultural, systemic problem in astrophysics, I feel like I would have noticed. [EDIT: I don't mean to imply that the problem is not real, only that I am surprised and disappointed] As for the diversity of the field, I believe it is getting more diverse. The gender ratio of graduate students in astronomy is apparently about 50/50. Hopefully, over the next several years the numbers in faculty positions will improve also. I have worked with a great number of highly capable women because as a technologist, I often wind up working with the graduate students rather than the principle investigators.
  - cjbprime 11y ago
    Astronomy is currently going through a series of very high-profile covered-up sexual harassment cases. Have you not heard about them? http://www.nature.com/news/astronomy-roiled-again-by-sexual-harassment-allegations-1.19153 http://www.nature.com/news/astronomy-roiled-again-by-sexual-... I don't know why you think you would notice sexual harassment happening. The obvious explanation for incidents like the ones we're talking about is that abusers are good at hiding it from the people they aren't abusing!
  - Declanomous 11y ago
    I realized I wrote a wall of text in response. I'm not picking on you, but I think you brought up a point that I think is really worth responding to in depth, because I felt that way in one point in time, and I've slowly realized how wrong I was. I used to believe that I would surely notice if I was in an environment that fostered harassment. Over time, I've realized that harassment is a problem, but I was just looking for the wrong things. Harassment doesn't really manifest itself in a way that can be made clear from a single objective measurement. There is a lot of research about sexism that really reveals what is not obvious to me, as a man, about how sexism affects women: When talking on the phone in a customer support role, women are more likely to be yelled at. Men tend to talk for a disproportionately large amount of a conversation. Assertive women are viewed much more negatively than assertive men by both men and women. Studies like these made me re-evaluate how harassment presents itself. I used to think that it was obvious, like wolf-whistles on the street. Harassment is more like living in a world where everyone is just a little (or a lot) bit shittier to you. It's a lot easier to ignore, because you've had the same experiences. As an example, I currently am one of three guys out of 25 people at my current company. We are a non-profit, and we have about 800k constituents, 100k of whom give in any given year. We all field a lot of calls from constituents who aren't happy for whatever reason. In the two years I've worked here, I've been yelled at once. However, the women who work here get yelled at weekly, regardless of their position. I majored in biology, and took a ton of CS in school. Bio was mostly women, and the CS program had barely a handful. As I look back, I've realized that the women in the programs really needed to present a lot more evidence for any other their proposals than men ever did. In both cases, it's really easy to dismiss criticisms with the platitude "Those things happen to everyone." They do, but they happen more to women. These little things add up, and teach women that their point of view is easily discounted, even when the evidence is incontrovertible. Reporting sexual harassment, even to someone you trust, is a huge gamble. All of their life experience points to the fact that they won't be taken seriously, especially if the person they are reporting it to is a male. They are way more likely to be seen as not being a team-player for reporting it, even if they are 100% in the right. Long story short: in order to see harassment, it's incredibly important to listen to what women are saying. It's also really important to listen to what you are saying in response, and whether you are actually listening.
scott_s 11y ago
Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment. (I include that extreme bullying in it.) When a number of individual assholes are allowed to continue being assholes, and you need to have a "look out for yourself attitude", that is a systemic problem. I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you.
- goodcanadian 11y ago
  I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you. So, I just had lunch with my wife, and she pretty much agrees with my take. She views her main problem as the act of a single, albeit misogynist, individual, and not a symptom of a systemic problem. Moreover, she expressed surprise (like myself) at the suggestion that astronomy is full of sexual harassment. She can't imagine my colleagues or former colleagues being like that. That is not to say that problems we can't see don't exist, of course.
- matwood 11y ago
  I always wonder at what point does bullying and the like become genuine illegal harassment? I have worked with assholes who bullied and acted like children, but I dealt with it and moved on. If my wife had worked with the same person does that make the bully's actions now something that is illegal? I've done some reading on this and it is never quite clear. It seems like if the asshole is an asshole to everyone it is fine. Only if they pick a protected class to be an asshole to does it become a problem.
  - Trombone12 11y ago
    Presumably the law has the standard for all genders, though in practice they tend to not be gender neutral in their use of pronouns, and courts have expectations of what is acceptable largely defined by traditional gender roles. I would wish that bullying that is illegal when directed at your wife is illegal when directed at you (modulo gender specific forms). In practice I'm sure it depends on how manly you are compared with her.
- 11y ago
zkhalique 11y ago
I wonder where I can read about frank male experiences in a female-dominated field, such as nursing, or teaching elementary school.
- ksenzee 11y ago
  My husband has spent most of his career as an association executive, which means he's often the only man in a room full of women colleagues. He's had some eye-rolling experiences. We keep thinking we should start a joint blog.
- nitrogen 11y ago
  I have seen women in superior positions comment on the attractiveness of men in work meetings in ways that would get the superior in a lot of trouble were the roles reversed, and then go on to justify and defend it.
- sudojudo 11y ago
  I've got an anecdote! Back in college, I worked a part-time job caring for high-functioning individuals with developmental disabilities, in a home health care environment. There was probably one male for every twenty females on staff. There was an incident where I was working overnight and my manager hadn't filled prescriptions during her day shift (she was the only one with the authority to do so). One of the residents, having not received their medication at the usual time, was having panic attacks. The situation elevated to the point of my having to call paramedics. I'd followed the chain-of-command. First, I tried contacting my co-workers, but they couldn't help. Next, I called my manager, but she ignored the calls. Then, I tried her supervisor (a man), and he was so angry about a lowly night worker contacting him during off-hours that I got nowhere. This all happened over hours, not minutes; the resident had become violent and was quite ill (not sure if it was withdrawals, anxiety, or both). I was out of options, so I called the hospital. The next day, I arrived at work where my manager, her boss, and someone from HR, were waiting for me in the office. They had drawn up paperwork outlining the reason for my dismissal. It was sexual harassment. Apparently, my manager ignored my calls because I was infatuated with her and called constantly. The whole fiasco the night before was just my way of getting her attention. I had never once contacted her at home. I did not like her on a personal level, let alone find her attractive. I was already in a happy/healthy relationship (15 years later, I'm still in that relationship). This event ruined me emotionally, and was one of the worst experiences of my life. The looks people gave me that day made me want to crawl into a hole and die, I didn't want to leave the house for months. Another kicker is that I was the only person in the entire company that was licensed to distribute and handle medication; a qualification that I'd picked up at a previous job, that had helped me land this position. In the eyes of the state, my manager should never have been in charge of handling prescriptions. The rabbit hole deepens. About a year later, I heard through the grape-vine that my old manager had been promoted to a senior administrative position.
ksenzee 11y ago
Frankly, I'd find it more surprising if you had witnessed this sort of behavior. Put yourself in the place of a harasser. Are you going to say or do something creepy in front of the decent guys you work with? Or are you going to pick a time when you and your victim are alone?
matt4077 11y ago
It's hard to notice when there's so few women in a given field. The victims also often don't have an interest in publicizing incidents - most communities are small and you can't risk burning bridges. I'd also guess the nature of injustices has changed: since everyone has gotten the message by now, they avoid the prototypical sexist comments in groups (not entirely, though. PIs with tenure have little reason to change and I've exchanged looks of disbelieve with colleagues on more than one occasion). And yet people are getting annoyed by attempts to change the situation. Sometimes, I even understand their frustration with some of the more misguided ideas of postmodern feminism. What's more surprising is the level of hate people can muster for so-called 'swj twitter-activists etc' considering the minimal inconveniences they inflict – I vividly remember the absolute despair a good friend (smart, well-educated, ambitious but conscientious) experienced when she realized that she would never have a chance of advancement in the rather conservative profession she had chosen. As in: the boss-boss told her point-blank 'I know everyone in this business and you're never get anywhere as long as I'm alive. Why don't you go into nursing?'.
eevilspock 11y ago
> she has suffered the occasional subtle discrimination That's what we like to tell ourselves. Philosopher George Yancy: What if I told you that I’m sexist? Well, I am. Yes. I said it and I mean just that. I have watched my male students squirm in their seats when I’ve asked them to identify and talk about their sexism. There are few men, I suspect, who would say that they are sexists, and even fewer would admit that their sexism actually oppresses women. Certainly not publicly, as I’ve just done. No taking it back now. To make things worse, I’m an academic, a philosopher. I’m supposed to be one of the “enlightened” ones. Surely, we are beyond being sexists. Yet, I refuse to remain a prisoner of the lies that we men like to tell ourselves — that we are beyond the messiness of sexism and male patriarchy, that we don’t oppress women. Let me clarify. This doesn’t mean that I intentionally hate women or that I desire to oppress them. It means that despite my best intentions, I perpetuate sexism every day of my life. As a sexist, I have failed women. I have failed to speak out when I should have. I have failed to engage critically and extensively their pain and suffering in my writing. I have failed to transcend the rigidity of gender roles in my own life. I have failed to challenge those poisonous assumptions that women are “inferior” to men or to speak out loudly in the company of male philosophers who believe that feminist philosophy is just a nonphilosophical fad. I have been complicit with, and have allowed myself to be seduced by, a country that makes billions of dollars from sexually objectifying women, from pornography, commercials, video games, to Hollywood movies. I am not innocent. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/12/24/dear-white-america/ http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/12/24/dear-white-a...
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

wfo 11y ago

Biology is one of the most female-friendly STEM fields out there. I've met female biologists, plenty of them. The article describes astrophysics as 90%, 95% male at many of these universities. I think it's likely that the issues aren't quite as systemic in fields which are a little more diverse, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't a cultural, systemic one in astrophysics.

goodcanadian 11y ago
I get what you are saying; however, I have not witnessed this behaviour (perhaps, because I am male). If it was really a cultural, systemic problem in astrophysics, I feel like I would have noticed. [EDIT: I don't mean to imply that the problem is not real, only that I am surprised and disappointed] As for the diversity of the field, I believe it is getting more diverse. The gender ratio of graduate students in astronomy is apparently about 50/50. Hopefully, over the next several years the numbers in faculty positions will improve also. I have worked with a great number of highly capable women because as a technologist, I often wind up working with the graduate students rather than the principle investigators.
- cjbprime 11y ago
  Astronomy is currently going through a series of very high-profile covered-up sexual harassment cases. Have you not heard about them? http://www.nature.com/news/astronomy-roiled-again-by-sexual-harassment-allegations-1.19153 http://www.nature.com/news/astronomy-roiled-again-by-sexual-... I don't know why you think you would notice sexual harassment happening. The obvious explanation for incidents like the ones we're talking about is that abusers are good at hiding it from the people they aren't abusing!
- Declanomous 11y ago
  I realized I wrote a wall of text in response. I'm not picking on you, but I think you brought up a point that I think is really worth responding to in depth, because I felt that way in one point in time, and I've slowly realized how wrong I was. I used to believe that I would surely notice if I was in an environment that fostered harassment. Over time, I've realized that harassment is a problem, but I was just looking for the wrong things. Harassment doesn't really manifest itself in a way that can be made clear from a single objective measurement. There is a lot of research about sexism that really reveals what is not obvious to me, as a man, about how sexism affects women: When talking on the phone in a customer support role, women are more likely to be yelled at. Men tend to talk for a disproportionately large amount of a conversation. Assertive women are viewed much more negatively than assertive men by both men and women. Studies like these made me re-evaluate how harassment presents itself. I used to think that it was obvious, like wolf-whistles on the street. Harassment is more like living in a world where everyone is just a little (or a lot) bit shittier to you. It's a lot easier to ignore, because you've had the same experiences. As an example, I currently am one of three guys out of 25 people at my current company. We are a non-profit, and we have about 800k constituents, 100k of whom give in any given year. We all field a lot of calls from constituents who aren't happy for whatever reason. In the two years I've worked here, I've been yelled at once. However, the women who work here get yelled at weekly, regardless of their position. I majored in biology, and took a ton of CS in school. Bio was mostly women, and the CS program had barely a handful. As I look back, I've realized that the women in the programs really needed to present a lot more evidence for any other their proposals than men ever did. In both cases, it's really easy to dismiss criticisms with the platitude "Those things happen to everyone." They do, but they happen more to women. These little things add up, and teach women that their point of view is easily discounted, even when the evidence is incontrovertible. Reporting sexual harassment, even to someone you trust, is a huge gamble. All of their life experience points to the fact that they won't be taken seriously, especially if the person they are reporting it to is a male. They are way more likely to be seen as not being a team-player for reporting it, even if they are 100% in the right. Long story short: in order to see harassment, it's incredibly important to listen to what women are saying. It's also really important to listen to what you are saying in response, and whether you are actually listening.

scott_s 11y ago

Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment. (I include that extreme bullying in it.) When a number of individual assholes are allowed to continue being assholes, and you need to have a "look out for yourself attitude", that is a systemic problem. I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you.

goodcanadian 11y ago
I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you. So, I just had lunch with my wife, and she pretty much agrees with my take. She views her main problem as the act of a single, albeit misogynist, individual, and not a symptom of a systemic problem. Moreover, she expressed surprise (like myself) at the suggestion that astronomy is full of sexual harassment. She can't imagine my colleagues or former colleagues being like that. That is not to say that problems we can't see don't exist, of course.
matwood 11y ago
I always wonder at what point does bullying and the like become genuine illegal harassment? I have worked with assholes who bullied and acted like children, but I dealt with it and moved on. If my wife had worked with the same person does that make the bully's actions now something that is illegal? I've done some reading on this and it is never quite clear. It seems like if the asshole is an asshole to everyone it is fine. Only if they pick a protected class to be an asshole to does it become a problem.
- Trombone12 11y ago
  Presumably the law has the standard for all genders, though in practice they tend to not be gender neutral in their use of pronouns, and courts have expectations of what is acceptable largely defined by traditional gender roles. I would wish that bullying that is illegal when directed at your wife is illegal when directed at you (modulo gender specific forms). In practice I'm sure it depends on how manly you are compared with her.
11y ago

zkhalique 11y ago

I wonder where I can read about frank male experiences in a female-dominated field, such as nursing, or teaching elementary school.

ksenzee 11y ago
My husband has spent most of his career as an association executive, which means he's often the only man in a room full of women colleagues. He's had some eye-rolling experiences. We keep thinking we should start a joint blog.
nitrogen 11y ago
I have seen women in superior positions comment on the attractiveness of men in work meetings in ways that would get the superior in a lot of trouble were the roles reversed, and then go on to justify and defend it.
sudojudo 11y ago
I've got an anecdote! Back in college, I worked a part-time job caring for high-functioning individuals with developmental disabilities, in a home health care environment. There was probably one male for every twenty females on staff. There was an incident where I was working overnight and my manager hadn't filled prescriptions during her day shift (she was the only one with the authority to do so). One of the residents, having not received their medication at the usual time, was having panic attacks. The situation elevated to the point of my having to call paramedics. I'd followed the chain-of-command. First, I tried contacting my co-workers, but they couldn't help. Next, I called my manager, but she ignored the calls. Then, I tried her supervisor (a man), and he was so angry about a lowly night worker contacting him during off-hours that I got nowhere. This all happened over hours, not minutes; the resident had become violent and was quite ill (not sure if it was withdrawals, anxiety, or both). I was out of options, so I called the hospital. The next day, I arrived at work where my manager, her boss, and someone from HR, were waiting for me in the office. They had drawn up paperwork outlining the reason for my dismissal. It was sexual harassment. Apparently, my manager ignored my calls because I was infatuated with her and called constantly. The whole fiasco the night before was just my way of getting her attention. I had never once contacted her at home. I did not like her on a personal level, let alone find her attractive. I was already in a happy/healthy relationship (15 years later, I'm still in that relationship). This event ruined me emotionally, and was one of the worst experiences of my life. The looks people gave me that day made me want to crawl into a hole and die, I didn't want to leave the house for months. Another kicker is that I was the only person in the entire company that was licensed to distribute and handle medication; a qualification that I'd picked up at a previous job, that had helped me land this position. In the eyes of the state, my manager should never have been in charge of handling prescriptions. The rabbit hole deepens. About a year later, I heard through the grape-vine that my old manager had been promoted to a senior administrative position.

ksenzee 11y ago

Frankly, I'd find it more surprising if you had witnessed this sort of behavior. Put yourself in the place of a harasser. Are you going to say or do something creepy in front of the decent guys you work with? Or are you going to pick a time when you and your victim are alone?

matt4077 11y ago

It's hard to notice when there's so few women in a given field. The victims also often don't have an interest in publicizing incidents - most communities are small and you can't risk burning bridges. I'd also guess the nature of injustices has changed: since everyone has gotten the message by now, they avoid the prototypical sexist comments in groups (not entirely, though. PIs with tenure have little reason to change and I've exchanged looks of disbelieve with colleagues on more than one occasion). And yet people are getting annoyed by attempts to change the situation. Sometimes, I even understand their frustration with some of the more misguided ideas of postmodern feminism. What's more surprising is the level of hate people can muster for so-called 'swj twitter-activists etc' considering the minimal inconveniences they inflict – I vividly remember the absolute despair a good friend (smart, well-educated, ambitious but conscientious) experienced when she realized that she would never have a chance of advancement in the rather conservative profession she had chosen. As in: the boss-boss told her point-blank 'I know everyone in this business and you're never get anywhere as long as I'm alive. Why don't you go into nursing?'.

eevilspock 11y ago

> she has suffered the occasional subtle discrimination That's what we like to tell ourselves. Philosopher George Yancy: What if I told you that I’m sexist? Well, I am. Yes. I said it and I mean just that. I have watched my male students squirm in their seats when I’ve asked them to identify and talk about their sexism. There are few men, I suspect, who would say that they are sexists, and even fewer would admit that their sexism actually oppresses women. Certainly not publicly, as I’ve just done. No taking it back now. To make things worse, I’m an academic, a philosopher. I’m supposed to be one of the “enlightened” ones. Surely, we are beyond being sexists. Yet, I refuse to remain a prisoner of the lies that we men like to tell ourselves — that we are beyond the messiness of sexism and male patriarchy, that we don’t oppress women. Let me clarify. This doesn’t mean that I intentionally hate women or that I desire to oppress them. It means that despite my best intentions, I perpetuate sexism every day of my life. As a sexist, I have failed women. I have failed to speak out when I should have. I have failed to engage critically and extensively their pain and suffering in my writing. I have failed to transcend the rigidity of gender roles in my own life. I have failed to challenge those poisonous assumptions that women are “inferior” to men or to speak out loudly in the company of male philosophers who believe that feminist philosophy is just a nonphilosophical fad. I have been complicit with, and have allowed myself to be seduced by, a country that makes billions of dollars from sexually objectifying women, from pornography, commercials, video games, to Hollywood movies. I am not innocent. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/12/24/dear-white-america/ http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/12/24/dear-white-a...

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]