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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare
- ar0 11y agoMy first reaction: Oh boy, apparently far too many people take the dating advice of phyiscs "god" Richard Feynman far too seriously and don't seem to be able to accept if this doesn't produce the stellar results he predicts in his book. Also a good read on this: http://mathematigal.com/home/2014/7/14/feynman-is-not-my-hero http://mathematigal.com/home/2014/7/14/feynman-is-not-my-her...
- bunnymancer 11y agoYet people find it hard to understand why some people might be somewhat offended by a shirt with scantily clad women during a press conference. Things do not happen in a vacuum and pretending like nothing is wrong isn't going to help anyone get anywhere.
- sp332 11y agoThe guy wore the shirt to a celebration after working with those co-workers for 10 years. It wasn't intended to look "professional" and I'm pretty sure none of those co-workers were offended. The reason the shirt was a bad idea is that it was easily misinterpreted by people watching the press conference. Edit: I didn't see it at the time, but this article exactly reflects my perspective on the thing. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/11/why-a-shirt-with-scantily-clad-women-caused-an-internet-fight/382812/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/11/why-a-sh... Edit2: I agree with bunnymancer's comment as far as it goes. But I don't think the shirt is a very big problem. It would be almost insignificant if it weren't interacting with the big problem we already have.
- ainiriand 11y agoA shirt that depicts women as objects or objectized women is just plain wrong. I do not care about the celebration.
- mooseburger 11y agoIt's art. The shirt was also made by a woman, for what it's worth.
- vkou 11y agoNude paintings are also art, but if you hang a couple in your office, you'll have a lawsuit waiting to happen.
- mooseburger 11y agoReally? I would fight that lawsuit tooth and nail. Neo-puritanism makes my blood boil.
- vkou 11y agoThat is also one kind of lawsuit where your personal assets will be on the line if you lose. Regardless of what you think of Puritanism, don't sexualize the workplace.
- ainiriand 11y agoNabokov's Lolita is also art. Lester the molester is also art. Invalid argument.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y agoHave you actually read Lolita.
- ainiriand 11y agoYes, I found it quite interesting but deeply disturbing. You can rest assured that I'm not the only one: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/books/2005/12/lolita_at_50.html http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/books/2005/12/lolita_at_5... https://101books.net/2011/12/15/lolita-inside-the-mind-of-a-pedophile/ https://101books.net/2011/12/15/lolita-inside-the-mind-of-a-...
- yitchelle 11y agoThere is no excuse for these type of behaviour, none.
- hakann 11y agoI do not know much about their workplace but I think you are assuming too much when you say you are sure his co-workers were just fine with it. I worked in academia and startups all my life so I am used to seeing casual shirts being worn but that was way too much. We do not hang that kind of pictures around the office. We do not want people to look at that kind of pictures in the office. Not just in the office also in any work related function. How can you claim that nobody in his workplace was offended when he is walking around with pictures that would be offensive in any other form?
- sp332 11y agoI'm not positive. But that would be between them and their employer. I think it's odd that I can't find a quote from any of his co-workers (men or women) about the issue. They are the only ones who would have standing to complain on a normal day without news cameras around. Edit: found the video I was looking for. NASA made this one two years earlier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KnTpm9Y77E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KnTpm9Y77E So, still speculation, but we do have some idea of attitudes at NASA.
- QuotedForTruth 11y agoAfter reading the OP's linked article, do you see why his female coworkers may have been reluctant to openly and publicly complain about his shirt? "Mia" isn't the woman's real name. She talks about the threats of backlash to her career she has received.
- BobCat 11y ago> that kind of pictures Pictures of clothed women are not offensive unless you're a religious fundamentalist. He has tattoos of sexy women, should he wear a burka to spare your feelings?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- kelukelugames 11y agoIn a forum dominated by men, under-socialized men because they have few female co workers, there is a lack of understanding and sympathy for anything less than groping. Last time I was on here, HN users defended their right to make dick jokes in the work place.
- mooseburger 11y agoDick jokes in the workplace are ok. Serious question, why wouldn't they be?
- vkou 11y agoThey aren't if someone has a problem with them. Because there are plenty of jokes you can tell that don't refer to genitalia?
- matthewmacleod 11y agoWhile generally I would tend to avoid dick jokes in the workplace, primarily because they're not particularly professional, it's a poor argument that they are not appropriate because 'someone has a problem with them.' In a large workplace, 'someone' will have a problem with any joke about any topic.
- vkou 11y agoWhich is a great reason for why you should keep edgy humour out of the office. In the US, we value the right to make a living in a hostility-free work environment more then the right to say whatever you want at work.
- mooseburger 11y agoSo long as the joke isn't putting down someone (could be bullying), any joke is ok IMO.
- ainiriand 11y ago
- sjs382 11y agoThat was the first thing I thought of when seeing this article's title, too. Here, for reference: https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/11/14/1415997502957/Dr-Matt-Taylor-012.jpg https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pic...
- Houshalter 11y agoThe stupid shirt controversy trivializes real issues. This article is about actual cases of sexual harassment and even assault. People don't take it as seriously because now sexism now mostly means people getting offended at silly shirts. I clicked on the article honestly expecting it to be something trivial like that, and was alarmed at the seriousness of it.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- sqldba 11y agoIt sounds terrible. And yet working in he unrelated field of IT I haven't seen it. I have seen a bunch of assholes in high positions though and have to put up with their idiotic demands and abuse. So when I read these articles I wonder if it's the same people and how they translate treating male workers like garbage into treating female workers like garbage. It's not misogyny; it's welcome to the workforce and dealing with people above you who are neither competent not deserving of their positions and their power trips and borderline psychopathy. What do you think? Or are there really nice bosses who are just complete assholes to women with zero crossover?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- dagw 11y agoOr are there really nice bosses who are just complete assholes to women? My friend's ex-boss was like that. All the guys at the company thought he was the best boss ever and all the women hated him with a passion.
- clevernickname 11y agoThe opposite absolutely exists. I've had female bosses, professors, etc. that all the women loved and admired, while all the men agreed she was out to get them.
- philovivero 11y agoAre you certain of that? In my experience, women superficially will say glowing and great things about other women, but when the honesty comes out, there's vitriolic hatred. Women have a far more sophisticated sense of situation-appropriate speech. Men think of it as "two-faced," but it's just Machiavellian maneuvering. When taken at face value, it's easy to mistake women as having great respect and love for one-another.
- clevernickname 11y ago
- DarkContinent 11y agoIn the present day and age, where PhD supervisors are given massive amounts of power over their graduate students, such incidents are all too commonplace. Put more institutional safeguards on the process of awarding doctoral degrees to protect both sides of the inequality.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- manyxcxi 11y agoI wonder, and this me genuinely wondering without an assumed answer, if some of the issues we're seeing with gender inequality in 'traditionally male dominated' lines of study and work might be due to the type of people drawn to those fields. I'm not going all men's rights or saying anything is acceptable but if you took a (painfully?) stereotypical set of physicists, technologists, etc. they would probably be male, on the autism spectrum/socially awkward in general, and likely have spent the majority of their time around the same types of people (smart, socially awkward men/boys). Could part of it be from social cues they may not have learned along the way since they likely spent a good portion of their time out of the 'normal' stream of socialization? Another thought, and anecdotally, I played multiple sports in high school and aspired to play college football. When I walked into a CS or advanced physics class in high school and college I was the something is not like the rest; sauntering in at 6'4", in a cutoff t-shirt and sweats having just come from practice or lifting weights. There were multiple times where when I screwed up I was called a dumb jock, or something like that. If I was instead a woman, might they have just called me a dumb girl? Now they are being misogynistic for sure, but couldn't you attribute it to the fact that they pick out the difference between you and them and attack on that? Isn't that what most groups do in a "you don't belong, you're not our kind" kind of mentality? I shook most of it off pretty casually because I could look into myself and a) be sure I was just as good, if not better than the majority of 'them', and b) I knew I could physically destroy them and it made 17-22 year old me smile inside. As a Type A, incredibly outgoing and social individual, I've been reminded many times of how annoying I get to a lot of the people who studied with me and work with me because they are very typically not. Growing up with one foot in nerd life and another in jock life (taking the non-pejorative easy to describe route with nerd and jock) it was very clear the group social difference between both sides of my friends. I, frankly, had a much easier time fitting in with the sports oriented/popular crowd and felt almost, hesitant, maybe, in larger groups in my CS/Physics studies. It was a weird, unnerving feeling for someone who spent most of his life dropping into social situations and just rolling with it. It was almost as if I was communicating at a _just_ different enough baud rate that we could work together, but it was taxing for a long time. I could imagine if I was a woman who maybe couldn't draw on their physical dominance to provide a sense of safety, how much more stressful those years would have been.
- pc86 11y agoCan someone explain to me what "nearly over a decade" is supposed to mean?
- kelukelugames 11y agoIt means a writer is trying too hard.
- Coincoin 11y agoIt's a nice way to make the reader think 15 when the reality is 8.
- tantalor 11y agoNearly a decade, e.g., "9 years".
- allannienhuis 11y ago'over' can also be used to indicate something took place throughout the whole timespan. Short form of 'over the course of little less than a decade'.
- tome 11y agoPresumably it should have been "over nearly a decade".
- kitd 11y agoSo "a decade" :)
- danso 11y agoThough the submitted article does link to the BuzzFeed articles, it's curious that BuzzFeed isn't mentioned by name in the same way that the NYT and WaPo are...even though in the WaPo case, the WaPo was simply playing catch-up to BuzzFeed's exclusive investigations, particularly in the cases of Drs. Marcy and Ott, which are indepth enough to be interesting longform reading on their own: - http://www.buzzfeed.com/azeenghorayshi/famous-astronomer-allegedly-sexually-harassed-students http://www.buzzfeed.com/azeenghorayshi/famous-astronomer-all... - http://www.buzzfeed.com/azeenghorayshi/ott-harassment-investigation http://www.buzzfeed.com/azeenghorayshi/ott-harassment-invest...
- dang 11y agoIf there's another URL which is a more substantive original source on the same story, we can swap it out. I'm hesitant to do that without having time to read the articles carefully but am fine with taking suggestions.
- appleflaxen 11y agoIt's amazing that sexual harassment (or any kind of harassment, really) can survive the era of the cell phone recording? Allegations of misbehavior carry far more weight, once there is a recording that can tickle people's sense of voyeurism and outrage.
- s_kilk 11y ago> It's amazing that sexual harassment (or any kind of harassment, really) can survive the era of the cell phone recording? In some jurisdictions it's illegal to record someone without their knowledge or permission, so the victim of the harassment can get nailed to the wall for trying to gather evidence to support their case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_recording_by_civilians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_recording_by_civil...
- vkou 11y agoMany states forbid recording without consent.
- LoSboccacc 11y agothis: > Universities, Mia notes, have protocols for dealing with complaints of sexual harassment seems part of the problem. sexual harassment should be a 'go straight to police' offence, not a hr reprimand. if the problem is as widespread as it's made in the article, it cannot correct from within.
- ceejayoz 11y agoMany forms of sexual harassment are not crimes. Some forms (physical assaults, extensive stalking) are, but something like repeatedly asking a subordinate for a date isn't something the police would be able to intervene in.
- masklinn 11y agoAnd then there's the other problem that even for criminal sexual harassment police may or may not be willing to help (the humongous backlog in unprocessed "rape kits" being but one concrete evidence of the latter)
- woodman 11y ago> ...unprocessed "rape kits" being but one concrete evidence... The size of the "backlog" is an impressive number, but it was my understanding that it is primarily due to policies that lead to collection by default - regardless of actual need. Like when the perpetrator of the crime confesses, or when the DA determines that the rape kit isn't evidence of rape. Collecting by default makes sense as it is a time sensitive issue, but there are plenty of good reasons not to process the kit. If you think that processing should be done by default that is one thing, but lack of processing certainly isn't "concrete evidence" of police apathy.
- ceejayoz 11y agohttp://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2015/09/02/rape-kit-testing/71561958/ http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2015/... > Forensic experts at the Michigan State Police have been helping to clear the backlog, with the help of millions of dollars in funding appropriated by the Legislature. > Worthy said Detroit's kit-testing initiative has identified 2,616 suspects — including 477 serial rapists — and that 21 convictions have been secured. She said 106 cases are actively being investigated and 1,350 cases are awaiting investigation.
- supremeanger 11y ago>BuzzFeed as a source Ah yes a center of constant excellence
- rokhayakebe 11y agoAsk Women: What counts as sexual harassment? Is it "Let's go out this weekend?" or is it a comment about body parts below the neck, or is it physical?
- vkou 11y agoWhy not ask a lawyer instead?
- simunaga 11y agoA woman's or a man's lawyer?
- vkou 11y agoSince when do lawyers segregate their practices by gender?
- simunaga 11y agoMy comment isn't about gender. It's about the fact that the same lawyer can prove that you, whether you be a man or woman, victim or criminal, guilty and non-guilty at the same time. Depending on whose side the lawyer is.
- rokhayakebe 11y agoGoogle this "divorce lawyer for men," granted it is marketing ploy.
- vkou 11y agoFair enough. In this case though, both sides of the aisle will give you the same legal advice.
- rokhayakebe 11y agoToday I want to know what women think (and maybe sympathize), not the law.
- simunaga 11y agoWhile in general it can be true, it's not necessarily the case that everything in the article is 100% true. We don't know all the details.
- koolba 11y agoWhat's the legal jurisdiction of the ISS? Is it split by country of origin of the separate modules? On a more comical note, I wonder if "worldwide copyright" applies after escaping the worlds atmosphere...
- erispoe 11y agoIt's about astronomers, not astronauts.
- randlet 11y agoI think you've confused astronomers and astronauts?
- zimbu668 11y agoMy brother-in-law worked for Fox's online division at one point, his contract had a clause with wording like "Employee agrees that this contract is legal and binding throughout the entire universe."
- mooseburger 11y agoThese harassment cases are so mysterious to me. What kind of men think this sort of behavior is ok? I mean, I would like to help somehow, but I don't know anyone like that.
- makomk 11y agoThe kind of men that have gotten away with it for years and even then kept their jobs (unlike the women they targetted)?
- mooseburger 11y agoSnark aside, I just wonder why I don't know any men like that in my personal life. The problem seems quite widespread after all.
- pavel_lishin 11y agoIs it possible that you do know them, but don't know who they are? After all, if you're a guy, you'll never be the target of harassment - and if they do most of their harassing one-on-one, you may ever witness it, either.
- kefka 11y agoI'm a guy and have been subject to sexual harassment. Now, I'm also bisexual, and I get that people want to be forward. It's called a mating signal for a reason, and that area is fraught with misunderstandings on both sides. Well, I went in to a bar with my wife and a guy friend (of both of us). He's gay. We tried a relationship with him prior, but distance/timing meant it wouldnt. So, we were up visiting and going to an event, and he was the one showing us around town. Sooo, we walk in the bar, and it's a gay bar. No biggie. And then my friend starts showing me off like I'm his.... It took me a few moments to understand what was going on. And then I had upwards of 3 drinks offered in quick succession. One guy put his arms around my shoulders, while another grabbed my ass. It was a gay bar tending for what's called "Bears" (I'm also 6'5")... but there was some sort of soft-core underwear porn of skinny guys on huge monitors. It was probably one of my worse experiences. And if anything, it was indicative of what women more routinely go through.
- artpepper 11y agoThis is why any talk about women being "naturally" less gifted at hard science, or naturally drawn to other fields, is B.S. You'd have to get to a level playing field first, before you could even evaluate that type of claim. (Neil deGrasse Tyson has made this same point.)
- fnfnfjnd 11y agoRead another way: Some women want to make it illegal for men they find unattractive to proposition them for a date.
- mooseburger 11y agoDo you believe that the behavior described in the article is how attractive men get dates?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- Cyph0n 11y agoI never knew BuzzFeed wrote exclusive longform (and interesting) content. Thanks for mentioning it.
- aembleton 11y agoThey do quite a bit of it and fund it through their fluff and click-bait. It's actually a similar model to a lot of traditional broadsheet, just applied to the web.
- coldpie 11y agoBuzzFeed has a crazy amount of real, good journalistic content. I wish they used a separate domain name for their real journalism so I wouldn't have to take the "real article or clickbait" gamble every time I click a buzzfeed.com link.
- shas3 11y agoIt would probably be counter to their revenue model if they had a separate domain for serious journalism.
- twilkinson573 11y agohttp://www.buzzfeed.com/bigstories http://www.buzzfeed.com/bigstories is the best place to find their longform stuff without having to wade through the quizzes and clickbait.
- davidgerard 11y agoBuzzFeed has a startlingly good line in actual serious journalism these days.
- dang 11y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11519919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11519919 and marked it off-topic. Btw this comes up every time a substantive Buzzfeed article appears on HN.
- 11y ago
- goodcanadian 11y agoI must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring. My wife is an academic (biology). Thankfully, so far as I know, she has never had to deal with sexual harassment. She did have an experience of dealing with an extreme bully during her PhD (who threatened her career and the like; pro-tip: individual assholes generally don't have the power to destroy your career). The university was not at all supportive, but her PhD advisor was, so things generally worked out in the end, but it was a lot of stress along the way. Besides that, she has suffered the occasional subtle discrimination for being a woman or a mother, generally from older males in the field, but all in all, I don't think she would say that harassment is rife. I think she would pin the problems on individual assholes rather than a systemic problem in science. You do need to look out for yourself, however, as the institutions generally won't, and I do find that a bit sad.
- wfo 11y agoBiology is one of the most female-friendly STEM fields out there. I've met female biologists, plenty of them. The article describes astrophysics as 90%, 95% male at many of these universities. I think it's likely that the issues aren't quite as systemic in fields which are a little more diverse, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't a cultural, systemic one in astrophysics.
- goodcanadian 11y agoI get what you are saying; however, I have not witnessed this behaviour (perhaps, because I am male). If it was really a cultural, systemic problem in astrophysics, I feel like I would have noticed. [EDIT: I don't mean to imply that the problem is not real, only that I am surprised and disappointed] As for the diversity of the field, I believe it is getting more diverse. The gender ratio of graduate students in astronomy is apparently about 50/50. Hopefully, over the next several years the numbers in faculty positions will improve also. I have worked with a great number of highly capable women because as a technologist, I often wind up working with the graduate students rather than the principle investigators.
- SCAQTony 11y ago"...At the time of the survey, Berkeley had two women to 17 men, while MIT had three women to 11 men. At Harvard, there was only one woman compared to 12 men...." The amount of working female astronomers at a given institution seemed woefully small. One sexual harasser in the bunch could harass 100% of the women. It's hard for me to believe that universities have a monopoly on a-hole men. What seems more believable is that they don't lay down the law like the rest of societal business institutions.
- I_HALF_CATS 11y agoI investigated Vice for over six months for a book. Their media is so bad I regularly call it a liar's cult. It should be stated that Vice has no fact-checking process. They also rarely issue corrections. Read everything from them with caution. Here is an article where I fact-checked two documentaries with links to other fact checks. https://notvice.com/fact-checking-vice-a-fiction-2d4821001163 https://notvice.com/fact-checking-vice-a-fiction-2d482100116...
- snowwrestler 11y agoOk, but for this story Vice is mostly recycling facts and stories reported elsewhere. It's a fact that Geoff Marcy was disciplined for harassing women. It's a fact that Christian Ott was disciplined for harassing women. It's a fact that women scientists are speaking on the record about these things. So I don't see how your comment is relevant to the article we're discussing.
- Chris2048 11y agoIt's relevant - maybe it's not all true, or recycled fact, so the repute of vice is relevant.
- I_HALF_CATS 11y agoDid the article really describe a 'constant nightmare' or was the article more an example of anectdata. I would argue that demonizing STEM fields with sensational language does more harm than good.
- snowwrestler 11y agoI don't think Vice has a monopoly on clickbait headlines.
- I_HALF_CATS 11y agoI'm not quite sure what you're advocating. The reporting isn't original and the headline is click-bait. I consider yc news a place for elevated discussion not for elevating BS.
- peterwwillis 11y ago> "Until recently, we have tiptoed cautiously around these discussions for the most part" [Mia] Looking for feedback from women on this one: why would one tiptoe around this issue, rather than shouting it from the rooftops? It seems so counter-intuitive.
- rurban 11y agoI've only seen such behavior in 2nd or 3rd world countries, like in some eastern block countries or the US, never in the developed world. It's disgusting.
- powertower 11y agoI am curious of why is it everyone here is so eager for this to be true? Several people so far have posted that they have never seen such a thing in the field, and a number of people (outside those fields) responded that they must be blind. The last 9 out of 10 of these types of stories ended up being exaggerated to such an extent that it became clear that they were all fabricated to get views and to drive agenda.
- graycat 11y agoI've been a prof: Academics is awash in non-objective pushing and shoving that, yes, affects careers. In academics, even high end universities, a lot of the nasty behavior of middle school is still alive and well. Added to that is grown up politics, professional jealousy, professional competition with sabotage, and, also, no doubt, sexual harassment as in the OP. I can't speak first hand about sexual harassment because I'm a normal male and never knowingly harassed a female. But, gee, right, there were some times: (1) I was chair of the college computer committee, and she was in the administration and invited me to her office to talk about computing. She leaned back in her chair, put her feet up on her desk aimed at me so that I could see under her skirt and said "My husband and I have an open marriage". Well, my wife and I don't. (2) I was a consultant, say, an applied statistician, in a computing center, and a new prof on campus in sociology with some survey data came to see me about processing the data. She started talking about finding things in her data and said that she was "looking for sex". Then she kept saying she was "looking for sex". Gee, those women were trying to harass me sexually? No, I didn't have any "nightmares"! Similar things can go on in parts of business. My mother used to say that a young woman should carry a six inch long, sharp hat pin and be prepared to insert it into any man who got too fresh. We're talking an old story. Maybe I should start a Web site to sell long, sharp hat pins with some instructions on usage. If we could get rid of all the sexual harassment, then we will discover that, once have some good work, others afraid of losing out in competition will start to fight back, with whispering campaigns, sabotage, gang behavior, etc. I saw one female prof have a nice little tactic: She never said anything about her research. So, she never gave anyone any hint about what she was doing. Then, suddenly, in one 12 month period, she published five nice papers in one of the best journals in the field. Presto. Bingo. In a baseball analogy, she had hit a home run, or call it a grand slam, had rounded all the bases, and was home free. Five papers in one of the best journals one year? Tough to fight with that, i.e., whispering campaigns mostly won't work. BTW, I was the faculty member who proposed hiring her -- her qualifications looked good to me. Is being a prof a nice job? Not very. For one, it's super tough to get paid well enough to buy a nice house and do well supporting a family. Even if get tenure, that doesn't mean that your salary has to keep up with inflation. It can seem better just to be in business, e.g., start and own a successful business, where actually make some money and can accumulate it for some real financial security. Second, really, to get very far in academics, have to pay close attention to money anyway -- have to get grants. So, can begin to feel like are in business anyway. Third, in business, it's fairly easy to know how to keep score -- the units are dollars. In academics, we're talking numbers of papers, numbers of invited talks, numbers of journal editorships, number of dollars of grant money, prestige, number of citations, etc. So, it's tough to count and/or compare. For a successful business owner, the criteria are simpler to count and compare -- e.g., a bank statement or, if you will, an account's report. I have always felt protective of girls and women, and I hate to see them have "nightmares" over anything. But, honey, and I say this out of 100% affection, caring, and respect, out in the real world, there is lots of pushing and shoving, and there still will be even without men trying to kiss you, knocking on your hotel room door at 3 AM, sending you suggestive messages, etc. Or to borrow from and paraphrase E. Fromm in The Art of Loving, "For humans, the fundamental problem in life is responding to the anxiety from our realization that alone we are vulnerable to the hostile forces of nature and society. The first recommended solution is love of spouse." Well, honey, and, again, I mean this with full affection, caring, and respect, one of the "hostile forces of society" is the nearly eternal force of men pursuing friendship, affection, sex, domination, etc. For such men, part of the solution is a ready supply of clear, loud statements "No. Stop. Quit.". For more, there is that long, sharp hat pin. For more, be in a public place and scream. For more, be with some girlfriends. Indeed, one of Fromm's other recommended solutions is "membership in a group". It's easy to remember the TV ads for the TV show The Babysitters Club with six or eight very pretty teenage girls walking on a sidewalk close together with each girl trying harder than all the others to be in the center of the group -- it was herd formation, and the TV people believed that it was credible. So, right, females tend "form herds", look like herd animals, and with good reason: They have more safety in a herd, as a member of a "group". So, right, form groups via Twitter, Facebook, fora, one to one e-mail, face to face, etc. E.g., it was totally clear to a girl I knew of 12, and one of her girlfriends of 11, each about 100 pounds, that they would feel much safer with me, 6' 3" and 14, if they were together and in a public place instead of alone with me in private. Since those girls of 11 and 12 knew about the safety of being in a public place and not alone instead of in a private place and alone, I'm sure the women of the OP can understand that. So, use that tactic. But, still, honey, that's not nearly the only problem you will face out in the real world. And, again, notice Fromm's first recommended solution -- "love of spouse". That is, have a good marriage with a good husband. Honey, for a lot of the problems you face in the outside world, sexual harassment is one of the easiest to deal with because (A) it is relatively easy to prove (e.g., smartphone and message recordings), (B) in its more serious forms is very definitely seriously illegal, i.e., you can hire a lawyer, and (C) there is the solution of that hat pin, or just your long, sharp fingernails. But for whispering campaigns, jealousy, sabotage, gang up behavior, etc., defense is more difficult. Honey, definitely you should protect yourself, and you do have some strong means. But out in the real world some guy trying to get too close to you is not your biggest problem and not what any nightmares, if there are to be any, should be about. Honey, relax; you are overreacting to the wrong thing.
- evanb 11y agoThere's a long-standing overrepresentation of women in solar astronomy. Why? It was previously thought unthinkably inappropriate that women should spend the nite in the observatory alone with men. So, to do astronomy many were pushed towards daytime astronomy, which pretty much restricts you to study the sun. Even today solar astronomy is largely dominated by women, demonstrating that historical biases propagate into the modern day. It's disappointing to think that female astronomer's fear of sexual harassment is well-founded and persists to this day.
- nikolay 11y agoMaybe in America... where people (which includes scientists) don't really have a social life. Anyway, if America becomes too hostile for scientists, I'll be happy if Europe and Russia become more attractive to people who don't want deal with bullshit and lawyers.
- arcticfox 11y agoMost Americans don't really have a social life? News to me...
- nikolay 11y agoIt's news to people who don't know better...
- nikolay 11y agoWe've brought over the years more than 30 developers from Eastern Europe some 8 years ago here in Southern California. Nobody wanted to stay for more than 3-6 months even though they got better pay here and no expenses to worry about - company lunches and dinners, nice company cars, nice spacious company houses, etc. On the contrary, when they go back to Western and Central Europe to work for clients, they didn't want to leave!
- Bud 11y agoPretty obvious from looking at the points and age of this posting that some people have flagged it. I hope some admins are considering removing those flags. Users who flag a post like this shouldn't really have flagging privs.
- privong 11y ago> Users who flag a post like this shouldn't really have flagging privs. I agree with you that the article is focused on an important topic (and I did not flag it), but I don't think you can easily make that one-to-one link between article flagging and poor judgment (or what ever negative trait would justify revoking of flagging privileges). People may have flagged the article because of some issue they had with the accuracy of the text (though it all seemed accurate to me). Or maybe they flagged it because this topic has received some attention previously on HN and the flaggers thought this article didn't bring any new information to the discussion (plausible, since most of the specific cases discussed were already in the news). There could be multiple reasons for flagging this article, not all of which are objectionable.
- qb45 11y agoI think flags shouldn't work after submission's score gets past some threshold. Real flagworthy crap doesn't receive hundreds of votes.
- nkurz 11y agoAn alternative explanation for sudden drops is the "flame war detector", which demotes stories that are attracting more than a certain ratio of "discussion" to upvotes (and possibly other factors). With more comments than upvotes, that might be the case here: http://hnrankings.info/11519205/ http://hnrankings.info/11519205/
- grahamburger 11y agoThere is an interesting side effect to these issues that I think doesn't get discussed very often. I try to be as aware as possible of these issues in the hope that I can make sure that I'm not part of the problem. As such I make a concerted effort to give anyone that works for me equal opportunities for advancement, and when in doubt I try to err on the side of the person who's in a marginalized class. I also try to make a habit of publicly recognizing good work that I see from any one in the company, and again I make an extra effort to recognize the work done by those in marginalized classes. I'm also very choosy in general about who I make friends with, or who I interact with on anything other than a professional level. As a rule, I don't interact socially with women in the workplace. The primary reason is that it's more important to me to not be labelled a sexual predator / harasser than it is to have female friends. (I am married, but I acted basically the same at work when I was single.) There are just too many ambiguities in what is considered sexual harassment for me to feel comfortable putting my reputation on that line. For example, it's not at all uncommon for me to comment to a male co-worker who comes in to work dressed up more than usual 'looking sharp, man!' or something along those lines. Would that be sexual harassment if I said that to a woman? Probably not on the face of it, but what if she has just (unbeknownst to me) endured harassment from another co-worker about her looks - then I could see my comment adding to the fire. Or what if I without thinking said something that implied that her dress would make her a more valuable employee or help her get that promotion or whatever. So, I just avoid it altogether. I recognize that my position may keep me from being part of the problem but also prevents me from being a part of the solution because I won't be aware of problems or able to offer meaningful support. I'm not sure what else to do.
- labster 11y agoIf you ignore all women socially at work, you're going to end up discriminating against women. People have a strong tendency to select for what they already know. If you have a hiring choice between a theoretically equal woman and an equal man, you'll probably want to select the man because you'd feel safe to interact with him socially. You won't because it's Wrong, but what about all of the little decisions you don't think about so hard? Even if you were outside of management, you'd still be marginalizing the women on your team by your actions -- making an in group and an out group. It's possible to run so far from sexual harassment you run into sexual discrimination. I don't know if there is an answer to this other than "be a nice person". Not trying to pick on parent in particular, just trying to illustrate how thorny the issues are.
- mathattack 11y agoThis sounds as bad as investment banks. Why are schools so behind the times? Accounting firms and Advertising agencies are cleaning up. Why are universities staying with the banks? Is tenure part of the problem? That it's so hard to fire people for bad behavior? Or is it that academic prestige is "Winner takes all" so schools choose to protect those who give them their reputation?
- hobarrera 11y ago"These people are bullying you, and you're being polite back to them." I think this pretty much summarizes something that should be transmitted to all women in these sort of situations.