4 ms·

From a technocrat standpoint, Merkel made the smart move. From a "face"/PR standpoint. She lost big. By "giving in" to Turkey's insane demand, it sets a prece

by searine 11y ago

From a technocrat standpoint, Merkel made the smart move. From a "face"/PR standpoint. She lost big. By "giving in" to Turkey's insane demand, it sets a precedent for taking future demands seriously. Germany just gave an authoritarian state a seat at the big kids table. A flat out denial to engage Turkey's unreasonable demand would have highlighted how absurd it was in the public sphere. Instead, we have a bunch of articles highlighting Merkel. Erdogan played her like a fiddle.

mpweiher 11y ago
I think you're wrong, because the government interfering with what is primarily a judicial process is exactly how autocracies work, and exactly how democracies do not work, even if in this case the end result is the one we would prefer. Process matters. A lot. Now where the government (legislative) has every right to have a say is that this law needs to be removed.
- searine 11y ago
  >Process matters. A lot. Within an established system. Germany and Turkey have no common justice system or even a common foundation for the rule of law. Erogadan is playing outside the scope of any justice system, and so should Germany, because it holds all the power here. After all. The only rules to The Great Game, are that those who follow the rules, lose.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    International politics is a game of its own, where there are no rules, but actions still have consequences. Looking at it purely under the prism of internal law is simplistic.
  - mpweiher 11y ago
    This is happening within the German system of government, even if an outsider is bringing the suit. And that is exactly the point. And what I find so beautiful is that it manages to send both the "rule of law" message and the fk you message at the same time.
  - lukeschlather 11y ago
    Germany and Turkey are both nominatively parliamentary republics. They are also members of the United Nations. So they both share a common justice system, and a common foundation for the rule of law. Obviously, there are limits to this, but it's a mistake to dismiss these things out of hand.
pbhjpbhj 11y ago
If there is legislation on the statute then how can Merkel have it ignored, does she have some sort of absolute authority to contradict the rule of law? >"In a country under the rule of law, it is not up to the government to decide," Merkel said. // Which seems exactly right; there's no decision she made other than to not attempt to interfere with the established rule of law - who would allow that to happen?? >Germany just gave an authoritarian state a seat at the big kids table. // Which seems to be nonsense. Instead Germany allowed someone to bring a private prosecution to court as is the right according to that country's legislation; not doing that would a complete breech of democratic process and the rule of law. Just because someone brings a frivolous prosecution doesn't mean you suddenly tear down the basis for open society and create a sui generis action against them, you let the law work, that's the exact opposite of giving in to authoritarianism. Acting like an authoritarian state to counter authoritarianism would be moronic. Playing this out as "Erdogan has won against Merkel" seems really ignorant to me. Why are you doing that, don't you believe in the rule of law?
- searine 11y ago
  >If there is legislation on the statute then how can Merkel have it ignored Because Erogadan is not a German Citizen. >don't you believe in the rule of law There is no international rule of law between Turkey and Germany.
  - germanier 11y ago
    This is not how it works. First, citizenship is not important in front of a German court barring very few exceptions. Second, there is a law which specifically protects foreign head of states. Third, German courts ruled before in the past this specific provision is part of international law in the German legal system. You don't need to be a German citizen to be protected by German law (why should you?).
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    Slander/libel are about the country of the alleged infringement. As with other torts the person allegedly damaged doesn't need to be present otherwise it would be easy to just cross a border to avoid prosecution. Indeed I didn't realise initially but the German statute includes a law particularly protecting foreign heads of state.

by searine 11y ago

mpweiher 11y ago

I think you're wrong, because the government interfering with what is primarily a judicial process is exactly how autocracies work, and exactly how democracies do not work, even if in this case the end result is the one we would prefer. Process matters. A lot. Now where the government (legislative) has every right to have a say is that this law needs to be removed.

searine 11y ago
>Process matters. A lot. Within an established system. Germany and Turkey have no common justice system or even a common foundation for the rule of law. Erogadan is playing outside the scope of any justice system, and so should Germany, because it holds all the power here. After all. The only rules to The Great Game, are that those who follow the rules, lose.
- icebraining 11y ago
  International politics is a game of its own, where there are no rules, but actions still have consequences. Looking at it purely under the prism of internal law is simplistic.
- mpweiher 11y ago
  This is happening within the German system of government, even if an outsider is bringing the suit. And that is exactly the point. And what I find so beautiful is that it manages to send both the "rule of law" message and the fk you message at the same time.
- lukeschlather 11y ago
  Germany and Turkey are both nominatively parliamentary republics. They are also members of the United Nations. So they both share a common justice system, and a common foundation for the rule of law. Obviously, there are limits to this, but it's a mistake to dismiss these things out of hand.

pbhjpbhj 11y ago

If there is legislation on the statute then how can Merkel have it ignored, does she have some sort of absolute authority to contradict the rule of law? >"In a country under the rule of law, it is not up to the government to decide," Merkel said. // Which seems exactly right; there's no decision she made other than to not attempt to interfere with the established rule of law - who would allow that to happen?? >Germany just gave an authoritarian state a seat at the big kids table. // Which seems to be nonsense. Instead Germany allowed someone to bring a private prosecution to court as is the right according to that country's legislation; not doing that would a complete breech of democratic process and the rule of law. Just because someone brings a frivolous prosecution doesn't mean you suddenly tear down the basis for open society and create a sui generis action against them, you let the law work, that's the exact opposite of giving in to authoritarianism. Acting like an authoritarian state to counter authoritarianism would be moronic. Playing this out as "Erdogan has won against Merkel" seems really ignorant to me. Why are you doing that, don't you believe in the rule of law?

searine 11y ago
>If there is legislation on the statute then how can Merkel have it ignored Because Erogadan is not a German Citizen. >don't you believe in the rule of law There is no international rule of law between Turkey and Germany.
- germanier 11y ago
  This is not how it works. First, citizenship is not important in front of a German court barring very few exceptions. Second, there is a law which specifically protects foreign head of states. Third, German courts ruled before in the past this specific provision is part of international law in the German legal system. You don't need to be a German citizen to be protected by German law (why should you?).
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  Slander/libel are about the country of the alleged infringement. As with other torts the person allegedly damaged doesn't need to be present otherwise it would be easy to just cross a border to avoid prosecution. Indeed I didn't realise initially but the German statute includes a law particularly protecting foreign heads of state.