6 ms·

Another one is password restrictions: if I want to use a one-character password, that's my business. If I want to use my birthday as password, that's my busines

Another one is password restrictions: if I want to use a one-character password, that's my business. If I want to use my birthday as password, that's my business. If the app developer is concerned about security in case an attacker gets hold of the raw database, there are better tools for that (i.e. proper salting and hashing)

ldjb 11y ago
Salting and hashing isn't going to help you much if you're prone to using one-character passwords. Unfortunately, people will use one-character passwords if they are allowed to, so systems should require strong passwords to protect users. That's not to say there aren't problems with password restrictions, but they are mostly at the other end of the spectrum. For example, I have seen far too many systems requiring that passwords must be no longer than ten characters long, or only allowing a very small subset of characters.
- 1_player 11y ago
  > Salting and hashing isn't going to help you much if you're prone to using one-character passwords Why not? OK I'm no cryptographer, so I'm probably talking out of my arse but why not store a random salt PER user, and the hash of (password + salt)? To an attacker, a one character password will be as hard to crack as a complex one.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - ldjb 11y ago
    An attacker would still be able to brute-force the password in a split-second. Besides, if you're using the same one-character password for multiple systems, the password can easily be deduced on a system that only uses hashing (or a weak form of salting), and an attacker can use that password to access accounts on stronger systems.
  - UK-AL 11y ago
    You just try every character. A computer can do that in < 1 second.
  - kecks 11y ago
    > hard A 1-char password can be guessed in as many attempts as the size of the allowed character set, and in half the guesses on average. Even less guesses are required on average if passwords aren't distributed uniformly and this distribution is known (i.e. from previously cracked password databases you know most users pick "e" for a password, so you start with that character and get into the accounts of 40% of all other users in a single guess). More generally, the average number of attempts required to crack a password with a known length is 1/2 * charsetsize ^ length. So with alphanumeric case-sensitive 1-char passwords the number of attempts required on average is 31. That's not a lot. The only thing that salt + hash does is make it possible to check the password without having to store the passwords on server; it only serves to protect user passwords after the password (hash) database has been stolen by attackers. The only way to keep a semblance of security when user passwords are very short is to aggressively rate-limit password attempts, but in the case of 1 char passwords that doesn't help, you'd have to lock the user out after a single wrong password entry, and even then attackers would have a chance of 1/62 (26 lowercase letters, 26 uppercase letters and 10 numbers) chance of getting into your account.
    - mooreds 11y ago
      Bravo.
  - easyd 11y ago
    I think what you mean is a pepper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_(cryptography) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_(cryptography)
- avn2109 11y ago
  At the very least, every site should clearly explain its password policy. e.g. you must have a letter, a number, no slashes, 8-40 characters, whatever. As I write this, I am locked out of my 401(k) plan's website because it allows you to reset your password to an illegal string, which fails when you try to log back in. Crappy corporate UX boggles the mind.
imtringued 11y ago
I'm fine with a minimum length but adding some random characters to my password will only make it harder to remember my 20 character long passwords.
- GrinningFool 11y ago
  That's if you're allowed to use that many characters. A disturbing number of sites (even banks) put limits on the size of a password which tend ot make me think they're storing it somewhere plaintext...
  - nucleardog 11y ago
    I'd go so far as to say "especially banks". Banks, credit card companies, insurance companies, and other places like that are the only time I usually run into the "4-6 characters, no symbols" type restrictions.
throwanem 11y ago
> if I want to use a one-character password, that's my business It's really not. Depending on the service, someone who guesses your weak password and compromises your account may very well be able to injure more people than just you.
- woliveirajr 11y ago
  But then he, knowing the all-complex-password he's forced to create, can also make those others miserable too. Just because he is known doesn't mean he can't broke everything. So, the problem is with the service, not with his weak password. It's just a matter if someone will be easily / hardly / not at all blamed.
amsheehan 11y ago
If the user isn't going to take the security of the app you built seriously, you the app developer has to. It never looks bad for the user to get their data breached. It always looks bad and can do lasting damage to a company if an application suffers a breach.
GrinningFool 11y ago
I don't mind -- too much -- those kinds of restrictions. The one that drives me batshit-insane is "maximum length". WTF?

ldjb 11y ago

Salting and hashing isn't going to help you much if you're prone to using one-character passwords. Unfortunately, people will use one-character passwords if they are allowed to, so systems should require strong passwords to protect users. That's not to say there aren't problems with password restrictions, but they are mostly at the other end of the spectrum. For example, I have seen far too many systems requiring that passwords must be no longer than ten characters long, or only allowing a very small subset of characters.

1_player 11y ago
> Salting and hashing isn't going to help you much if you're prone to using one-character passwords Why not? OK I'm no cryptographer, so I'm probably talking out of my arse but why not store a random salt PER user, and the hash of (password + salt)? To an attacker, a one character password will be as hard to crack as a complex one.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- ldjb 11y ago
  An attacker would still be able to brute-force the password in a split-second. Besides, if you're using the same one-character password for multiple systems, the password can easily be deduced on a system that only uses hashing (or a weak form of salting), and an attacker can use that password to access accounts on stronger systems.
- UK-AL 11y ago
  You just try every character. A computer can do that in < 1 second.
- kecks 11y ago
  > hard A 1-char password can be guessed in as many attempts as the size of the allowed character set, and in half the guesses on average. Even less guesses are required on average if passwords aren't distributed uniformly and this distribution is known (i.e. from previously cracked password databases you know most users pick "e" for a password, so you start with that character and get into the accounts of 40% of all other users in a single guess). More generally, the average number of attempts required to crack a password with a known length is 1/2 * charsetsize ^ length. So with alphanumeric case-sensitive 1-char passwords the number of attempts required on average is 31. That's not a lot. The only thing that salt + hash does is make it possible to check the password without having to store the passwords on server; it only serves to protect user passwords after the password (hash) database has been stolen by attackers. The only way to keep a semblance of security when user passwords are very short is to aggressively rate-limit password attempts, but in the case of 1 char passwords that doesn't help, you'd have to lock the user out after a single wrong password entry, and even then attackers would have a chance of 1/62 (26 lowercase letters, 26 uppercase letters and 10 numbers) chance of getting into your account.
  - mooreds 11y ago
    Bravo.
- easyd 11y ago
  I think what you mean is a pepper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_(cryptography) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_(cryptography)
avn2109 11y ago
At the very least, every site should clearly explain its password policy. e.g. you must have a letter, a number, no slashes, 8-40 characters, whatever. As I write this, I am locked out of my 401(k) plan's website because it allows you to reset your password to an illegal string, which fails when you try to log back in. Crappy corporate UX boggles the mind.

imtringued 11y ago

I'm fine with a minimum length but adding some random characters to my password will only make it harder to remember my 20 character long passwords.

GrinningFool 11y ago
That's if you're allowed to use that many characters. A disturbing number of sites (even banks) put limits on the size of a password which tend ot make me think they're storing it somewhere plaintext...
- nucleardog 11y ago
  I'd go so far as to say "especially banks". Banks, credit card companies, insurance companies, and other places like that are the only time I usually run into the "4-6 characters, no symbols" type restrictions.

throwanem 11y ago

> if I want to use a one-character password, that's my business It's really not. Depending on the service, someone who guesses your weak password and compromises your account may very well be able to injure more people than just you.

woliveirajr 11y ago
But then he, knowing the all-complex-password he's forced to create, can also make those others miserable too. Just because he is known doesn't mean he can't broke everything. So, the problem is with the service, not with his weak password. It's just a matter if someone will be easily / hardly / not at all blamed.

amsheehan 11y ago

If the user isn't going to take the security of the app you built seriously, you the app developer has to. It never looks bad for the user to get their data breached. It always looks bad and can do lasting damage to a company if an application suffers a breach.

GrinningFool 11y ago

I don't mind -- too much -- those kinds of restrictions. The one that drives me batshit-insane is "maximum length". WTF?