17 ms·
What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation
- anateus 11y agoThis gave me a strong Flowers for Algernon vibe. For someone that's high functioning only with experiences like these is it really possible to see what things are still "missing".
- foxhedgehog 11y agoNot intending to trivialize the intensity of this person's lived experience by saying this, but I definitely think that this would make for an amazing short story.
- smegel 11y agoThe biggest takeaway from this for me was...so what the hell is EM radiation from my mobile phone doing to my brain???
- sdabdoub 11y agoUnless your phone is a giant electromagnet, probably nothing.
- notthemessiah 11y agoCell phone radiation is typically in the GHz wave range, and rTMS, as well as most brain waves, typically between 1 and 30 Hz. They are completely different parts of the spectrum, well, so unless you are a pigeon, I don't think there's much effect.
- tgflynn 11y agoI have no concerns about cell phone radiation but I'd just like to point out that the high carrier frequencies don't necessarily preclude effects on low frequency systems. The modulation envelope probably extends down quite close to DC (think about the modulation induced by a cell phone adapting its emission to towers) and virtually any non-linear circuit can act as a rectifier/detector. I used to work in an accelerator physics lab and the low frequency effects of RF leaks could be interesting.
- smegel 11y ago> I don't think there's much effect I felt more reassured when scientists were promising there was no interaction between EMR and organic matter.
- Nutmog 11y agoWere they ever? Cellphones have been shown to heat the side of you brain. No evidence that it alters its functioning though. Going out in the sun also heats the side of you brain.
- fallingfrog 11y agoI wonder what effect the 60 cycle radiation from the power mains has on people? Presumably not much, or there would be some evidence with such a large number of people being constantly exposed. And yet TMS at 30 hz apparently has a huge effect. I feel like I am missing some piece of the picture here. Perhaps it's the intensity that makes the difference.
- superobserver 11y agoYou should perhaps be more concerned about the techno-cognitive dependency you're forming by simply using it more than anything else.
- philovivero 11y agoI'm glad this guy wrote this up. Now I have no desire to get off the spectrum.
- proksoup 11y agoI had a (medication induced) experience similar to the author's, with similar perception of radical changes in the motivations/intentions of my coworkers and friends, but mostly I remember it being like bright light was turned on in a dim room, my new awareness of others emotions changed a lot of my assumptions about their thoughts, the effects lasted a few days. I'd rather be more in tune with reality, if new technology (or older ones like psilocybin or lsd) can provide this, sign me up.
- kstenerud 11y agoThat would be cool to be able to turn it on temporarily. After hearing about this guy's experience, I definitely wouldn't want it turned on permanently.
- cauterized 11y agoMay I ask what medication triggered this experience for you?
- proksoup 11y agoAmanita muscaria.
- slv77 11y agoTMG had a similar effect on me after taking it for three months. The effect was repeatable for others in my extended family. The effect initially was a very intense feeling of being connected with everyone. The intensity faded over time but the effect still remains. For example I actually enjoy small talk. After some reaearch I believe that TMG facilitates the breakdown of tonic dopamine (background dopamine outside of neurons) and high levels of tonic dopamine relative to tonic serotonin suppress the release of oxytocin. LSD is serotogentic and may work in a similar way by stimulating serotonin receptors and simulating raising the level of tonic serotonin vs dopamine. Oddly people on SSRIs complain about reduced empathy as a side effect so there may be a U shaped curve or something else going on.
- qewrffewqwfqew 11y agoThe sort of post-TMS emotional hypersensitivity he describes is "normal"? On one hand I wonder if I'm further on the spectrum than imagined and should seek help ... on the other, being overwhelmed by other folks' emotional state sounds crippling.
- proksoup 11y agoIt most certainly is, and the disarray caused by finding people to contain motivations that were hidden can radically alter relationships. Stay in the dark maybe I don't know I wish the light bulbs we already found were legal, but me myself I'm signing up if this technology becomes so and a few other folks take the risk before me first ...
- qewrffewqwfqew 11y ago> I wish the light bulbs we already found were legal Are you hinting at psychedelics? I'm familiar with their documented ability to open up different kinds of doors, but not this particular one. Colour me skeptical.
- proksoup 11y agoI've experienced it myself, felt identical to the author's experience, becoming aware. There's plenty of other untrustworthy anecdotal evidence[1] on the internet, but I'm not aware of any published research on the matter. Skeptical seems a rational stance, and was mine prior to my experience. [1] https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10828194/fpart/all/vc/1 https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/1082819... (psychadelic forum posting asking about autism experience with psilocybin) "I have aspergers syndrom myself. I feel that psychedelic drugs allow me to feel like a person without aspergers syndrom temporarily or atleast give me a feeling that mimics empathy." "I have symptoms of aspergers, in the past they were much more prominent. I feel that psychedelics make us more aware. As we become aware corrections can be made"
- chris11 11y ago
- agumonkey 11y agoI wonder how sexual development happens in autism. In terms of emotional connection it's a pretty central and strong source.
- adammunich 11y agostressfully
- agumonkey 11y agoIt's a life altering 'change' in one's brain (at least it can be) and I very strongly believe that for people with socio-affective issues it has some relevance. Not talking about mechanics here of course, but a mean to interact / relate with someone emotional state.
- restalis 11y ago"for people with socio-affective issues it has some relevance" It may. It would enlarge the amount of things we use to relate to when we're communicating but it's not essential for a natural-perceived relation. The mechanics may be all what's necessary. From what I've noticed, all that non-autistic persons are really interested in this regard is the belief that the other person is emotionally-empathetic, and that interest can (more or less) be catered for.
- agumonkey 11y agoI may be an oddity but I can assure you that emotional relation through contact has significant deep sources, causes and effects on one's mind. It was like going from 2D monochromatic vision to 3D trichr. And in my case it wasn't a smooth transition and caused me deep anguish to say the least. When I see documentaries about autistic childs, the way they express anxiety and hit themselves, I can't help but to think about my own past issues. Hence my question.
- restalis 11y ago
- tgflynn 11y agoI'm amazed by the improbability of this guy's life. He had an abusive father and a schizophrenic mother dropped out of school at 15 then worked as a sound engineer for a famous rock band, built a successful high-end auto repair business and then became a best selling author. I have to admit I was skeptical reading the article but his story seems to check out (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Elder_Robison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Elder_Robison). I wonder how relevant his experiences with autism and TMS would be though to those of us with less extraordinary lives. I mean I'm guessing that having a life like this would tend to suggest that someone's internal mental makeup is somehow rather non-mainstream as well.
- kauffj 11y agoI work with John's son, Jack, on LBRY (http://lbry.io http://lbry.io). The whole Robison family is full of people with interesting stories: - Jack went to trial as a teenager, facing 60 years (!) in prison for chemistry experiments (http://www.masslive.com/localbuzz/index.ssf/2009/06/actionreaction_how_one_teens_c.html http://www.masslive.com/localbuzz/index.ssf/2009/06/actionre...) - Here is John showcasing guitar for Kiss, built by whole family (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXZi4UZjiiI&t=10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXZi4UZjiiI&t=10) - John's brother is Augusten Burroughs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusten_Burroughs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusten_Burroughs) (this is a reposted comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11313452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11313452, but people found it interesting last time and I butter my toast with karma)
- tominous 11y agoEric Raymond had an interesting take on the link between autism and exceptional achievement (if you can get past his ego). http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=7060 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=7060 In short, the time and energy normally spent on social interaction instead is spent on other aspects of life.
- EGreg 11y agoOh brother. I consider myself very smart but wouldn't write this kind of arrogant drivel :)
- 0942v8653 11y agoAn article written by Robison: An Experimental Autism Treatment Cost Me My Marriage https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11313452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11313452 (26 days ago, 560 points, 313 comments)
- jonaf 11y agoMy 2-year-old son is the happiest, sweetest little boy. He was diagnosed with autism about 6 months ago by a pediatric neurologist, who we saw because he has zero communication skills (verbal or otherwise). He is almost always remarkably happy, and we love that about him. However, as you may imagine, it's impossible to discipline him, because he doesn't understand when you are disappointed or say "no" firmly. He thinks it's funny. Everything is funny. I am not sure yet but if he can go through his entire life successfully and mostly independently, and maintain the ability to enjoy literally every waking moment so greatly, I would go so far as to say I envy his innate joy. If I could ask him, I wonder if he would want to feel disappointment or sadness the way I do.
- peterarmstrong 11y agoFriendly advice: make sure that, if the time comes, you get a speech therapist sooner rather than later if the speech is delayed too much and the fact of not being able to communicate causes him distress. Early intervention helps so much, so it's great you have a diagnosis at this young age...
- MichaelMoser123 11y agoI can second that; my daughter used to get very upset interacting with other kids when she got into daycare (because of a delay in speech development). I would be playing with her for hours each day - it was all very repetitive and she was quite closed up within her own world, but then it all cleared up.
- kingkawn 11y agoHe sounds awesome, why can't you discipline him in a way that doesn't require him giving up being happy?
- dschiptsov 11y agoAutism is a set of habits, a biased training, if you wish. It cannot be undone by any brain stimulation whatsoever. Brain doesn't work that way.
- nashashmi 11y agoOk. Now I am going to call it. Back in the late 90s, people used to joke that you shouldn't keep cell phones at your wasteline or your "futures" will be affected. And then they would joke further that in 20 years you will have some weird people walking this earth. Well, it is 20 years later now, and we should see the affects of this supposed cell phone radiation. If I had to guess, I would say the version of the future we were predicting is the one we live in today ... where lots of people now have autism. The article says "magnetic" waves through the brain can "fix" autism. If magnets and electro waves are the fix, then maybe cell phone and radio waves were the cause that disturbed the brain to be this way.
- raphman_ 11y agosee https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11493927 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11493927
- thonos 11y agoEverytime I read one of these Autism articles I feel like I might be affected myself. I lack most of the symptoms I read on the internet but often feel disconnected and not caring about what's actually happening. Like a robot on autopilot with occasional breaks when I realize where I actually am in my life. For example when I hear really bad news, I'm just like "eh, life goes on". I'm not sure when this started but I remember a moment a few years back when I realized this trait for the first time. Is there a short check I can do to find out more?
- colejohnson66 11y agoVisit a doctor. That's really the only sure fire way to know. You may just have depression.
- cowpewter 11y agoAgreed. "Robot on autopilot" sounds far more like depression than ASD to me.
- Mahh 11y agoI think a few visits to a therapist may help you discover more about yourself. (Though I do think some people associate 'going to therapy' as 'having problems', I see it also just as a resource for guiding introspection. There probably is not any "problem" you need to "fix"... it can just be a way to discover yourself.) In your case, topics like emotional attachment style come to mind. Some people just grow up learning to condition their emotions become more numb... though in some cases it also becomes harder to become excited about things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory#Anxious-avoidant_insecure_attachment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory#Anxious-avoi... This is not to say that this is how you are... since it's not like I actually know you or your childhood, etc. But this is certainly a topic that I'm reminded of when I hear your example, and something like therapy can be an interesting way to dive into this.
- iopuy 11y agoJesus Christ, this guy is the author of 4 books all related to autism? - Look Me in the Eye: My Life with Asperger's (2007) - Be Different: My Adventures with Asperger's and My Advice for Fellow Aspergians, Misfits, Families, and Teachers (2012) - Raising Cubby: A Father and Son's Adventures with Asperger's, Trains, Tractors, and High Explosives (2014) - Switched On: A Memoir of Brain Change and Emotional Awakening (2016) He really hit the gravy train. I can't wait for "Sending An Asperger's Kid To College" and "Grandpa has Asperger, Son"!
- nvarsj 11y agoGood for him! It's pretty stupid to assume he "hit the gravy train" by writing a few books. There are much better ways to make money. More likely he wrote those because it's a topic he cares enough about.
- foxhedgehog 11y agoThis is legitimately one of the most incredible and heartbreaking stories that I have ever read.
- endymi0n 11y agoIf a simple coil is able to do this to the brain, how come the many Teslas of a superconducting MRI magnet don't do zip? Genuinely interested...
- leni536 11y agoI don't know anything about brain stimulation but my guess is it's tied to a narrow frequency range so the huge static magnetic field and the high frequency RF pulses don't do a thing. It would be nice to know this frequency range, is it tied to neural oscillation [1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_oscillation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_oscillation
- tgflynn 11y agoThe 1 T+ field your thinking of is a static magnetic field. Static magnetic fields don't induce currents (except in rapidly moving objects) and have no known effects on the brain or biology (at least for the field strengths available for MRI, really extreme magnetic fields might cause such effects). MRI machines also use much smaller modulated magnetic fields during a scan. It's conceivable these could have TMS like effects but as far as I know they don't in practice. I imagine TMS uses fields which are stronger than these since I believe the excitation coils are placed in very close proximity to the head.
- markhahn 11y agothe big field of an MRI scanner is static and very uniform (there is also an RF field during scanning, but it's smaller). TCMS is very dynamic and tight.
- luxpir 11y agoI feel it needs pointing out that the savant-stereotype surrounding autism still needs taming a little. Autism can make the lives of some sufferers extremely difficult, and also those of their carers. We all know this, yet the typical response to 'my child is autistic' is an assumption, often verbalised, that that child would 'at least' be good at mathematics, music or 'computers'. Sometimes they are not. It's similar to how the terms low- and high-functioning are not particularly helpful in most cases [0]. In general I think we need to become a little more nuanced in our approach to autism. -- [0] - http://www.stuartduncan.name/autism/low-functioning-autism-vs-high-functioning-autism-in-2012/ http://www.stuartduncan.name/autism/low-functioning-autism-v...
- k__ 11y agoYes. I knew a few lightly autistic people who also aren't exceptionally good at anything. Some are better than average programmers or something. But their autism is a greater burden than their increased skills are a help in their life. It's not that they just sit at home all day, avoiding people and creating awesome stuff en masse. Most of the suffer from their inability to interact socially.
- junko 11y agoBut that burden can be lightened. I wonder why local groups along the lines of 'Autistic Anonymous' don't exist, or even if they do, aren't widespread enough as there is a significant minority of the population who are autistic. I'm talking about those who are in the 'higher' spectrum of course, though by no means the group should turn into genius club or something. I agree, autistic people can also be average-skilled, but one thing they all have in common is the constant struggle to fit in socially, be it their lack of communication skills or weird personality etc. I know that having a meet up group for autistic people sound contradictory, but as long as it creates a sense of safeness* where people are free to share their experiences, even if they struggle badly doing so, it would still be incredibly comforting. Sharing stories and tips may or may not be helpful, but at the very least, nobody should feel alone in their struggle. *e.g. those who are too intimidated to be physically there can listen/communicate via Skype etc. Naturally the group leader would have to be someone with expertise in autism or well-experienced in adjusting to society socially
- tehwalrus 11y agoSome people have argued [1] that it was not his autism, but his alexithymia which was altered by the TMS. Alexithymia is an orthogonal condition: it can occur with or without autism. Believing that a "cure" for autism is required is also a rejection of neuro-atypicality as a valid state of being, which is a common form of subconscious Ablism (discrimination against disabled people). That is not to say that no autistic people want to try treatments, simply that we should not forcibly treat all of them (least of all children, which is a line even Robinson himself doesn't argue for crossing.) [1] https://soniaboue.wordpress.com/2016/04/06/a-shot-in-the-dark-autism-and-tms/ https://soniaboue.wordpress.com/2016/04/06/a-shot-in-the-dar...
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago>Believing that a "cure" for autism is required is also a rejection of neuro-atypicality as a valid state of being // Do you mean to say "believing that if a cure is found that it should be forced on people"? I liken the position to ocular or aural implants (like cochlear ear implants) - I'd say certainly a cure is required [by many people] but once found we shouldn't then force it on people. Which I think is what you're saying too?
- tehwalrus 11y agoApart from using "cure" to describe it, we agree.
- AlgorithmicTime 11y agoWell, it is a cure. A cure is something which removes a condition, be that an ear infection or autism.
- pbhjpbhj 11y agoOK, thanks for the elucidation.
- AlgorithmicTime 11y agoI'm going to come out and say that this is no different than a person born without arms claiming that they're not disabled, that they're not damaged. To claim we shouldn't cure autism because doing so would "reject neuro-atypicality as a valid state of being" (a typical non-statement) is as absurd as saying we shouldn't grow people new limbs (assuming we had the capability) because it's a rejection of amputeeism as a valid state of being. In a perfect world, autistic children would be found extremely young and cured before they suffered any real harm from their condition.
- pingec 11y agoSounds like his recently awakened sensitivity is on the level of a child's and he has yet to go through the coping process of desensitization.
- motti 11y agoMy mother published a fairly seminal paper on the topic [1] 18 years ago which concludes that emotional awareness (specifically, the "Theory of Mind"[2]) can be learned by people with Autism. At the time this was against prevailing wisdom but AFAIK is now considered accepted wisdom. [1] https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?cluster=16545696094019108775&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5 https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?cluster=165456960940191... [2] https://www.autism.com/understanding_theoryofmind https://www.autism.com/understanding_theoryofmind
- Diederich 11y agoIt's unclear how far along I am on the spectrum, but emotional intelligence is something I acquired late and with much effort.
- thedevil 11y agoSame here. I was able to learn social skills in my late teens and through my twenties. It wasn't exactly a fun process though. I'd try to "act normal" and then get feedback that taught me I was breaking a social norm. Feedback = kids making fun of me or cringing out of pity and embarrassment for me. And I wasn't very sensitive to the feedback so it took a lot of feedback to learn. Now I seem normal-ish and life is peachy and my different ways of thinking feel like a superpower rather than a handicap. But man, teenage life was hard. Disclaimer: I was never actually diagnosed with ASD (I was just called "weird" and "nerdy" and other things), but I have no doubt I would be diagnosed ASD if I ever got diagnosed.
- cmdrfred 11y agoMy story is similar to yours except I made a conscious decision to buck the trends and didn't work too hard on acting normal. I worry about what will happen to the kids growing up in this new safe-zone anti-bullying world? That feedback was invaluable to me, in fact it was probably the most important thing I learned in high school.
- Zenst 11y agoToo a degree yes, it is more case of the ability to process those emotions are slow, so as somebody with aspergers I will days later realise what I missed, sometimes years and other times be completely ignorant of what I missed. But equally I find it hard to explain emotional states and have a real hangup on fairness to the extent that as people say "I cut my nose of to spite my face". THink of emotions like book openings in a chess game, normal people know this naturally persay and other have to learn them, yet are able for all intent able to play chess and play well. Yet because they do not do the standard book openings, they end up with a slightly off balanced game with the other person getting upset you did not do a standard move. Not sure if that helps explain it, but for me is a good analogy. Still emotions and body language is in effect a form of communication that many use to say what they would not say directly and that is not autisims fault for not playing that game and being upfront and direct and honest, however blunt. With that, I console myself that if over 50% of the World was autistic, ther ewould be less liars and normal would be autism with those with emotional hidden communication being the ones deemed too have an issue by society. Still I do wish I had the skill set to cold-read people, certainly save much time.
- timwaagh 11y agothis sounds interesting. i always wanted to be able to read people better and emote normally. i don't have a marriage to save so that should not be the problem. hopefully this treatment will soon be available in my country.
- phineastcat 11y agoI'm on the spectrum and don't feel any emotional disconnect unless my blood sugar drops (usually from forgetting to eat or sleep.) When that happens, it's like part of my brain just... goes to sleep. I'm still awake, but I have a really hard time producing or sensing any emotions. My loved ones tell me 'it's like talking to a robot and not [PhineasTCat].' The weirdest part is I can physically feel that part of my brain isn't awake; it's like a weight in my head, pressing on my eyes. When I was little I called it 'the brain fuzzies.'
- mercer 11y agoOh wow. I experience those sensations but I've never directly associated them with decreased emotions. In hindsight, that does seem accurate though. For me it's the weight pressing on my eyes and sometimes a slight tingly sensation somewhere.
- rdudek 11y agoMy daughter is will be 4 years old in July and she's been diagnosed with autism last October. Me and my wife have been wondering if TMS is being done now more broadly and have it tried on her?
- randomgyatwork 11y agoWe need to stop seeing different types of personalities as diseases.
- Zenst 11y agoagreed it is by any other form, mental racism. People are people and they are all individuals, just sadly collected up in group definitions imposed by others. Still in a society that labels politicians in negative ways in general, it is a trait that prevails across many aspects of life and people do like to categorise and label things.
- Practicality 11y agoSo, funny that on hacker news and lots of programming blogs when this topic comes up a lot of people chime in about being on the (autistic side) of the spectrum too. Ironically, I feel left out. I am on the other end of the spectrum. Kind of like what this guy described after the treatment, although I've been dealing with it my whole life, so I don't get all worried. I feel like the only programmer who is intensely aware of the emotional state of my colleagues. I can sometimes tell people what they are feeling (when they are opening up) and it shocks them because I know it better than they do. Of course, I listen to trance-music at work so I can pretend to be autistic (please understand it's a bit of a joke) and ignore all the swirling emotions. Anyway, I've found others like me, but they seem to be more rare than autistic people. It seems to me like it would be nice to not be aware of all the emotions all the time. I sincerely envy the "insensitive" people quite often. It seems like it would be a lot easier if I were able to be selfish to a normal level without caring that someone's emotions might be unsettled.
- louprado 11y ago> normal level without caring One of my personal quotes is "caring is the first step towards insanity". Over-caring/empathy can also push one towards an unhealthy level of isolation as a coping mechanism. Granted that is a choice whereas someone on the spectrum faces isolation by default.
- drumdance 11y agoI have a friend who is an energy healer. I personally think that kind of thing is nonsense, but her origin story makes me pause. Throughout her teens and twenties she really struggled emotionally because she had this unconscious ability to absorb other people's emotional states. Then she went to an energy healer herself, discovered she had a gift and finally developed the coping mechanism not to let other people's energy affect her so much. Now she uses her ability to help people instead of just flailing around.
- partomniscient 11y ago>I have a friend who is an energy healer. I personally think that kind of thing is nonsense, but her origin story makes me pause. With a username like yours...? Or is it much more quantized drum machine and less anything else?
- hammock 11y agoIf it's accepted that magnetic pulses can stimulate nerve cells in the brain, "re-tun[ing] the way brain cells communicate," what does this mean for EMR in the environment, e.g. from Wifi and our cell phones? We are constantly being told that it's harmless, but it must have some effect on our brains.
- ESRogs 11y agoHe really likes that skinned knee example.