7 ms·

If you can't retire comfortably as a programmer where was all your salary going? I enjoy programming, but also realize I'm limited in how much I will make. I'm

by jareds 11y ago

If you can't retire comfortably as a programmer where was all your salary going? I enjoy programming, but also realize I'm limited in how much I will make. I'm ok with knowing I won't own a 5000 square foot house or buy the newest laptop every two years because I'm putting money away for retirement.

collyw 11y ago
Not everyone works in SV. In southern Europe I can live comfortably on a programmer salary, but can't save huge amounts.
- Swizec 11y ago
  Honest [tough] question: Why don't you work for clients that pay more? Just because you're in Southern Europe doesn't mean the person paying the invoices has to be. I have friends who save ungodly amounts (in the 40k/year range) and their employers/clients still think they're damn cheap. Income arbitrage. Look it up :)
  - Swinx43 11y ago
    Mind me asking where most of their clients are located as well as themselves?
    - ddorian43 11y ago
      Example you work for NewYork/SanFrancisco/etc company and live in Italy. You make $80K and save half of that. Depending on how good you are as a developer + finding better clients you can live in a cheaper country, say Bulgaria/Albania/etc and make more than 80K+(ex Salvatore Sanfilipo though he's special). Usually the more you get paid by the clients, the better they treat you as a human/professional. The clients who will pay you the most, are the ones that pay the most local-salaries, which is Sf,Ny,Washington etc, major us-cities. Maybe London a little too, but probably not (I don't know london having 150K salaries locally?).
      - Swinx43 11y ago
        Thank you very much for the reply. Yes if you move to (or live) in an area in europe that is cheaper than say London, Paris or the other big cities (and most places in Scandinavian :) ) then this is an option. At the moment really good developers in London can hit £80k+ per year in full-time salary but living costs locally are insane. If you are contracting in London you can make good money but you are still hindered by the high living costs. One big drawback is that I have seen very little remote work opportunities for London companies to anyone not living locally. This gets more pronounced the closer you move to the Data Science / Business Intelligence space, but even for Web Dev etc it looks to be not that common. So as you say it might have to be the big cities in the US as it seems the US are much further in accepting remote work than where I currently am.
    - Swizec 11y ago
      Exactly what ddorian43 said. My particular friends (and me of old) are located in Slovenia, clients are in San Francisco. You can have a decent life in Slovenia for $20k/year. You can easily get a gig in San Francisco for $60k/year. Probably even easier for $100k/year because of the whole signaling thing. I wasn't able to save as much as my friends are because of lifestyle inflation, but I sure had a lot of fun. My margin isn't as high now that I live in San Francisco, but my glass ceiling is higher. Tradeoffs :) PS: as you can infer from above, you can also always move. Nobody says you have to stay in a bad economy.
      - Swinx43 11y ago
        Thanks for the reply and the info provided. My personal opinion regarding the ability to move from a bad economy is that this is not always as easy as it looks. Even if you are european with an EU passport you are very likely to come up against some high language barriers etc. Although that could be a challenge some people might jump at. For example I know that the UK (and mostly London) is extremely tolerant of non native English speakers. However from experience I know this will count against you when people are looking to hire (I was on the hiring side at one point so know how my managers perceived this.) Germany is again another example where unless you speak really good German you will have some pretty tough challenges. I had a friend who grew up speaking German as a second language, who completed his masters in Germany, be told by his boss to go for German writing classes if he wants to get anywhere in their company. Europe might be one big open job market but Language honestly makes it far more difficult than it seems at first. This also goes for settling into your new country even if you are working for US or UK companies as your day job.
        Swizec 11y ago
        > you are very likely to come up against some high language barriers etc. This is not a problem I personally experienced for English speaking countries. Started learning when I was in kindergarten, always immersed in the culture via TV and internet, did English and English writing as a hobby pretty much since starting high school. Until they hear my accent, most people assume I'm a native speaker. So I lucked out on that front. The hard part for me was the visa. But that is also a solvable problem.
  - not-much-io 11y ago
    I work for a international company, mainly based in the US. I get paid what a local developer gets paid, our chinese employees get paid what the local norm is there etc. Do other companies just outright decide salary based on where the company HQ is? Call me cynical, but I'm a bit skeptical that a company would pay more than they had to. Note: Assuming of course your role is not super vital for the whole company or some such.
    - morgante 11y ago
      > Call me cynical, but I'm a bit skeptical that a company would pay more than they had to. Companies will not pay more than they have to, but if you demonstrate your worth they will be happy to pay it. I make high six figures and am completely location independent.
      - borplk 11y ago
        High six figures as in close to seven figures? As a programmer?
        morgante 11y ago
        No, more like the >$200k range.
    - Swizec 11y ago
      If you are as valuable as a local developer, then they will pay you as such. It's a business. They pay for value. And no, your salary/rate isn't defined by where the company HQ is. That part defines their price tolerance. The price is defined primarily by how much you ask for and what you can offer in return.
      - UK-AL 11y ago
        Its set by supply and demand. You need competitive markets to reach your value. If you have no other opportunities and no one is offering anything better than you have to accept that. Than they capture the rest of the value.
iopq 11y ago
Buying the newest laptop every two years is what like $2000 every two years? That's only $1000 per year, hardly a dent in a programmer's salary.
- icebraining 11y ago
  That's almost a month's salary for a junior/mid-level programmer in this corner of Western Europe.
  - dolel22 11y ago
    Assuming the programmer doesn't sell the current laptop that he's currently using.
  - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
    Western europe realy thats less than than a minimum wage job in the UK
  - bryanrasmussen 11y ago
    what corner of Western Europe is that?
    - ionised 11y ago
      UK probably. Developers get paid dick all here.
      - icebraining 11y ago
        Same timezone, but better weather :)
        jventura 11y ago
        Portugal! :)
- fsloth 11y ago
hkmurakami 11y ago
Even in SV, we should remember that programmer salaries have roughly almost doubled in recent years. I remember my school stats being that CS new grads made an average of about $70k or so out of school. Pretty sure that number is way up at a top program.
mason240 11y ago
Plus, with 3-9 month contracting gigs, part time freelancing, and remote work, we have more semi-retirement options than any other career field I can think of.
ryandrake 11y ago
Could be any number of things. An expensive health condition, personal obligations (alimony, child support, etc.) putting kids through school, an expensive mortgage, student loans, on and on. I've been working for close to 20 years and I'm pretty terrified when I look at how little I've actually been able to save.

by jareds 11y ago

collyw 11y ago

Not everyone works in SV. In southern Europe I can live comfortably on a programmer salary, but can't save huge amounts.

Swizec 11y ago
Honest [tough] question: Why don't you work for clients that pay more? Just because you're in Southern Europe doesn't mean the person paying the invoices has to be. I have friends who save ungodly amounts (in the 40k/year range) and their employers/clients still think they're damn cheap. Income arbitrage. Look it up :)
- Swinx43 11y ago
  Mind me asking where most of their clients are located as well as themselves?
  - ddorian43 11y ago
    Example you work for NewYork/SanFrancisco/etc company and live in Italy. You make $80K and save half of that. Depending on how good you are as a developer + finding better clients you can live in a cheaper country, say Bulgaria/Albania/etc and make more than 80K+(ex Salvatore Sanfilipo though he's special). Usually the more you get paid by the clients, the better they treat you as a human/professional. The clients who will pay you the most, are the ones that pay the most local-salaries, which is Sf,Ny,Washington etc, major us-cities. Maybe London a little too, but probably not (I don't know london having 150K salaries locally?).
    - Swinx43 11y ago
      Thank you very much for the reply. Yes if you move to (or live) in an area in europe that is cheaper than say London, Paris or the other big cities (and most places in Scandinavian :) ) then this is an option. At the moment really good developers in London can hit £80k+ per year in full-time salary but living costs locally are insane. If you are contracting in London you can make good money but you are still hindered by the high living costs. One big drawback is that I have seen very little remote work opportunities for London companies to anyone not living locally. This gets more pronounced the closer you move to the Data Science / Business Intelligence space, but even for Web Dev etc it looks to be not that common. So as you say it might have to be the big cities in the US as it seems the US are much further in accepting remote work than where I currently am.
  - Swizec 11y ago
    Exactly what ddorian43 said. My particular friends (and me of old) are located in Slovenia, clients are in San Francisco. You can have a decent life in Slovenia for $20k/year. You can easily get a gig in San Francisco for $60k/year. Probably even easier for $100k/year because of the whole signaling thing. I wasn't able to save as much as my friends are because of lifestyle inflation, but I sure had a lot of fun. My margin isn't as high now that I live in San Francisco, but my glass ceiling is higher. Tradeoffs :) PS: as you can infer from above, you can also always move. Nobody says you have to stay in a bad economy.
    - Swinx43 11y ago
      Thanks for the reply and the info provided. My personal opinion regarding the ability to move from a bad economy is that this is not always as easy as it looks. Even if you are european with an EU passport you are very likely to come up against some high language barriers etc. Although that could be a challenge some people might jump at. For example I know that the UK (and mostly London) is extremely tolerant of non native English speakers. However from experience I know this will count against you when people are looking to hire (I was on the hiring side at one point so know how my managers perceived this.) Germany is again another example where unless you speak really good German you will have some pretty tough challenges. I had a friend who grew up speaking German as a second language, who completed his masters in Germany, be told by his boss to go for German writing classes if he wants to get anywhere in their company. Europe might be one big open job market but Language honestly makes it far more difficult than it seems at first. This also goes for settling into your new country even if you are working for US or UK companies as your day job.
      - Swizec 11y ago
        > you are very likely to come up against some high language barriers etc. This is not a problem I personally experienced for English speaking countries. Started learning when I was in kindergarten, always immersed in the culture via TV and internet, did English and English writing as a hobby pretty much since starting high school. Until they hear my accent, most people assume I'm a native speaker. So I lucked out on that front. The hard part for me was the visa. But that is also a solvable problem.
- not-much-io 11y ago
  I work for a international company, mainly based in the US. I get paid what a local developer gets paid, our chinese employees get paid what the local norm is there etc. Do other companies just outright decide salary based on where the company HQ is? Call me cynical, but I'm a bit skeptical that a company would pay more than they had to. Note: Assuming of course your role is not super vital for the whole company or some such.
  - morgante 11y ago
    > Call me cynical, but I'm a bit skeptical that a company would pay more than they had to. Companies will not pay more than they have to, but if you demonstrate your worth they will be happy to pay it. I make high six figures and am completely location independent.
    - borplk 11y ago
      High six figures as in close to seven figures? As a programmer?
      - morgante 11y ago
        No, more like the >$200k range.
  - Swizec 11y ago
    If you are as valuable as a local developer, then they will pay you as such. It's a business. They pay for value. And no, your salary/rate isn't defined by where the company HQ is. That part defines their price tolerance. The price is defined primarily by how much you ask for and what you can offer in return.
    - UK-AL 11y ago
      Its set by supply and demand. You need competitive markets to reach your value. If you have no other opportunities and no one is offering anything better than you have to accept that. Than they capture the rest of the value.

iopq 11y ago

Buying the newest laptop every two years is what like $2000 every two years? That's only $1000 per year, hardly a dent in a programmer's salary.

icebraining 11y ago
That's almost a month's salary for a junior/mid-level programmer in this corner of Western Europe.
- dolel22 11y ago
  Assuming the programmer doesn't sell the current laptop that he's currently using.
- spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
  Western europe realy thats less than than a minimum wage job in the UK
- bryanrasmussen 11y ago
  what corner of Western Europe is that?
  - ionised 11y ago
    UK probably. Developers get paid dick all here.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      Same timezone, but better weather :)
      - jventura 11y ago
        Portugal! :)
fsloth 11y ago

hkmurakami 11y ago

Even in SV, we should remember that programmer salaries have roughly almost doubled in recent years. I remember my school stats being that CS new grads made an average of about $70k or so out of school. Pretty sure that number is way up at a top program.

mason240 11y ago

Plus, with 3-9 month contracting gigs, part time freelancing, and remote work, we have more semi-retirement options than any other career field I can think of.

ryandrake 11y ago

Could be any number of things. An expensive health condition, personal obligations (alimony, child support, etc.) putting kids through school, an expensive mortgage, student loans, on and on. I've been working for close to 20 years and I'm pretty terrified when I look at how little I've actually been able to save.