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Hi, Author here. Indeed I was the junior dev at the time. I now regret not making a lot of the points clearer. In this case, I know I would definitely NOT tre

by fredwu 11y ago

Hi, Author here. Indeed I was the junior dev at the time. I now regret not making a lot of the points clearer. In this case, I know I would definitely NOT treat my junior devs this way. In my view, using either aggressive tones, or public shaming, is not the right way to resolve things. I wish that senior dev at the time would've talked to me in a way that did not make me feel like I was worthless and intentionally fuck things up - at the end of day, most people try to do good things for their organisation, right? :)

shimon 11y ago
Of course. There are some general lessons about communication that you can learn from these examples. But nobody will do the right thing in every social situation 100% of the time. It's not that you don't have valid complaints here. It's that you've taken a huge number of examples that range from the simply ungraceful to outright exploitative, and combined them in one huge file that makes it look like you're seeking reasons for your grudges. A good workplace isn't one that avoids mistakes and conflict. It's one where the team feels invested and supported in working through that conflict in pursuit of their bigger goal. That goal doesn't have to be some world-changing potential; it can just be doing good work, getting paid, and taking care of yourselves.
apineda 11y ago
You also need to be more situationally aware and/or humble. I'm a junior dev, I probably should ask for permission or guidance before mucking around. That's life.
- ianwalter 11y ago
  Yea and then you get points off for not being a "self-starter" haha.
blazespin 11y ago
Yeah, I dunno, I think you missed the point. The majority of what I read there was pretty basic. This is how masculine (note, I didn't say male) professionals generally talk to each other. Is it the most optimal way? Probably not, but there is way way way worse. Like, you know, yelling at someone in a meeting, swearing aggressively, etc etc.
- 1457389 11y ago
  I think your reply just confirmed that OP has a point. "Boys will be boys" is no justification for rudeness
- ant6n 11y ago
  Masculine professions: fireman, wall street stock trader, police officer, navy seal... and software developer? No, this still doesn't make sense. Professionals can and should be courteous to one another. Software developers can, too.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > wall street stock trader ???
    - tdkl 11y ago
      Guess someone likes to watch Wall Street.
  - mathgeek 11y ago
    "Masculine professionals" are people, and should always be prefaced with a qualifier like "some" or "many." The original statement is certainly overly general in saying that all masculine professionals (I read it as all "real men" <ha!>) act the same way when women and children aren't in the room. "Masculine professions" are things that people do, and we can definitely challenge almost all generalizations here. Unfortunately, the person you're replying to never mentioned professions.
    - ant6n 11y ago
      I guess I misread it. Although the long paren and line break don't help.
- eastbayjake 11y ago
  > This is how masculine (note, I didn't say male) professionals generally talk to each other. ... Like, you know, yelling at someone in a meeting, swearing aggressively, etc etc. This behavior will eventually get you fired. It's unprofessional, demoralizes employees, and opens you up to legal embarrassment if one of the people you berated ever sues your company. I will agree that the people who engage in yelling/swearing at employees are generally male, but it's absolutely not true that this is how masculine professionals "generally"* conduct themselves at most companies. * If you're referring to startups in particular, where a founder cult-of-personality can have a totalizing effect on employees, they are the exception and not the rule.
reverend_gonzo 11y ago
Life is not roses, and people should learn to have thick skins. That said, saying "Don't touch my server!" is not at all abusive, especially if there's a history of people messing things up they have no business touching.
- greendesk 11y ago
  I can accept that laying rules like 'Don't touch my server' before people start writing over each other's work does not seem abusive. It makes me wonder: in case the senior dev did not disclose this policy to the junior dev prior to the meeting, what was the senior dev expecting? If no rules were communicated, it falls to the senior dev to lay them out. At the point that a junior dev does not follow a previously undisclosed procedure, why would that make the senior dev angry? The senior dev can note that the server is on his list and ask why did not the junior dev check who is responsible for the server?
  - pluma 11y ago
    > what was the senior dev expecting? Ask for permission. Failing that, ask for forgiveness. It's rude to mess with other people's stuff, or even shared property. Imagine it wasn't a server but a conference room he decided to apply his vigilante justice to. The result may have been a positive surprise but being a junior there's also a good chance he was ignorant of the requirements and have made things worse for others. In an ideal workplace every requirement is documented and every policy is written down and laid out to every team member. In the real world it's better to expect not to know everything -- and that's a fairly valuable lesson to take away in a junior role. That said, the response may be blunt but it should never be angry, especially not beyond the scope of the actual intervention itself. If you're about to cause significant damage, it's okay to put that in drastic terms to make sure you stop right there. But it shouldn't be personal and it should be considered a learning experience by everyone involved. Everyone should be allowed to make mistakes. They should just be expected to learn from them and avoid making the same mistakes in the future.
  - jlarocco 11y ago
    Does there really need to be a rule for that? If somebody is working on a server, and you know it, it's common sense not to mess with it.
chasing 11y ago
So lets pretend you're the older developer in this case. You've been tasked with setting up this server and you have a way you like servers to be set up. You and your team will be working on it, you want it set up just so. One morning before you arrive at work, junior dev Fred -- a nice kid, but definitely junior -- gets ahold of the server and starts monkeying around. It's not his job. It's not his server. And now you're either going to have to wipe the server and start fresh or get a debrief about what he has and has not done. And Fred's junior, as noted, so he doesn't always know the best way to do things (although, like many junior developers, he sure thinks he does!). So now you, senior dev, have this wild card that you just don't want to deal with because you're busy and doesn't Fred have other tasks on his plate? Why is he jumping all over your damned server? So you snap at Fred. "Get away from that -- it's mine, not yours. Please do your job and leave me to mine." Doesn't seem out of line to me.
- matwood 11y ago
  Actually seems in line to me as a learning moment for the junior dev. It's much like when I get a new puppy who wanders over to the the older dogs food bowl. The older dog gives a slight growl and the puppy has learned not to do that again, and one hopes in the general case (not all dogs are quite that nice). Hopefully as a junior dev this person learned a couple things here. First, that they do not know everything and second think how their actions will impact the team.
  - tamana 11y ago
    Teaching new devs to stay away from teammates is not a good lesson. Humans have more complex relationships than dogs.
    - matwood 11y ago
      Actually it is teaching the opposite. Engage your teammates and ask first before thinking you know it all and start doing someone else's job.
- niccaluim 11y ago
bsaunder 11y ago
Hi Fred, This is a challenging post, you seem to be getting knocked around with it quite a bit here. Hang in there. As you point out in your since published comment, treat this (and all your vignettes) as a learning experience. To help start you on your path for this post, I'll offer my 2 cents. First, try to write posts with positive messages (this one has an overwhelmingly negative tone despite your intentions). Perhaps recast the examples as learning experience. Think long and hard about the situations you describe and try to learn something. Then write a post on what you learned. Life's hard. Help others learn from your interactions (and learn yourself). Second, keep your issues to the real ones. It's okay to make a long list like this in a brainstorming session while a post is in the early draft stage, but try to trim down the stories to a handful of substantive ones (each with a lesson and reason for being there). In general, it seems you've been in some stressful situations (for yourself and others). People (even the most vaulted professionals) get cranky when things aren't going well - by whatever definition of well is for the context). You do seem to believe that transparency is a fundamental right. Its not. Noble, sure, but not ubiquitous or even always a good thing. Many times management will shield their reports from the disaster unfolding above them. Some times this is a good thing. It might be very distracting if everyone had perfect knowledge. I find its very important to have a good working relationship with your manager. Understand what motivates them and deliver on the tasks you are asked to (things can get messy when you "help" others (especially at the expense of your assigned tasks)). Much more to say, but I need to go deliver on some of my tasks now. Hang in there. Good luck. Write a second post with a positive spin on the major things you learned from this one.
- fredwu 11y ago
  Hi bsaunder, thank you so much for the advice and encouragement! Yep I can see why the negative tone is very off-putting to many people. Had I have a chance to do over I'd definitely do what you've suggested here and tackle it from the positive / lessons-learnt point of view. :) Many thanks! :)
- humanrebar 11y ago
  > You do seem to believe that transparency is a fundamental right. Its not. I wouldn't frame the issue in terms of rights, but management that hides relevant information is fundamentally dishonest and disrespectful. I wouldn't call it criminally fraudulent necessarily, but it's in the same spirit, though perhaps in a more grey area.
skywhopper 11y ago
I think what's missing is some resolution and reflection to each of the anecdotes. For many of them it's not clear to me what the point of the story was, or whether or not you thought you did anything wrong or not, or whether you understood the point of view of the (apparent) antagonist in each story. Context is lacking, too. When did these take place in the progression of your career? Has your perspective changed since the time the event happened?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
shams93 11y ago
Yeah if it was properly structured as a business you would never have had access to those resources to begin with. This kind of negative behavior is a relection of poor structure.
fit2rule 11y ago
Basically, we could all learn to mind our manners. Right?

by fredwu 11y ago

shimon 11y ago

Of course. There are some general lessons about communication that you can learn from these examples. But nobody will do the right thing in every social situation 100% of the time. It's not that you don't have valid complaints here. It's that you've taken a huge number of examples that range from the simply ungraceful to outright exploitative, and combined them in one huge file that makes it look like you're seeking reasons for your grudges. A good workplace isn't one that avoids mistakes and conflict. It's one where the team feels invested and supported in working through that conflict in pursuit of their bigger goal. That goal doesn't have to be some world-changing potential; it can just be doing good work, getting paid, and taking care of yourselves.

apineda 11y ago

You also need to be more situationally aware and/or humble. I'm a junior dev, I probably should ask for permission or guidance before mucking around. That's life.

ianwalter 11y ago
Yea and then you get points off for not being a "self-starter" haha.

blazespin 11y ago

Yeah, I dunno, I think you missed the point. The majority of what I read there was pretty basic. This is how masculine (note, I didn't say male) professionals generally talk to each other. Is it the most optimal way? Probably not, but there is way way way worse. Like, you know, yelling at someone in a meeting, swearing aggressively, etc etc.

1457389 11y ago
I think your reply just confirmed that OP has a point. "Boys will be boys" is no justification for rudeness
ant6n 11y ago
Masculine professions: fireman, wall street stock trader, police officer, navy seal... and software developer? No, this still doesn't make sense. Professionals can and should be courteous to one another. Software developers can, too.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > wall street stock trader ???
  - tdkl 11y ago
    Guess someone likes to watch Wall Street.
- mathgeek 11y ago
  "Masculine professionals" are people, and should always be prefaced with a qualifier like "some" or "many." The original statement is certainly overly general in saying that all masculine professionals (I read it as all "real men" <ha!>) act the same way when women and children aren't in the room. "Masculine professions" are things that people do, and we can definitely challenge almost all generalizations here. Unfortunately, the person you're replying to never mentioned professions.
  - ant6n 11y ago
    I guess I misread it. Although the long paren and line break don't help.
eastbayjake 11y ago
> This is how masculine (note, I didn't say male) professionals generally talk to each other. ... Like, you know, yelling at someone in a meeting, swearing aggressively, etc etc. This behavior will eventually get you fired. It's unprofessional, demoralizes employees, and opens you up to legal embarrassment if one of the people you berated ever sues your company. I will agree that the people who engage in yelling/swearing at employees are generally male, but it's absolutely not true that this is how masculine professionals "generally"* conduct themselves at most companies. * If you're referring to startups in particular, where a founder cult-of-personality can have a totalizing effect on employees, they are the exception and not the rule.

reverend_gonzo 11y ago

Life is not roses, and people should learn to have thick skins. That said, saying "Don't touch my server!" is not at all abusive, especially if there's a history of people messing things up they have no business touching.

greendesk 11y ago
I can accept that laying rules like 'Don't touch my server' before people start writing over each other's work does not seem abusive. It makes me wonder: in case the senior dev did not disclose this policy to the junior dev prior to the meeting, what was the senior dev expecting? If no rules were communicated, it falls to the senior dev to lay them out. At the point that a junior dev does not follow a previously undisclosed procedure, why would that make the senior dev angry? The senior dev can note that the server is on his list and ask why did not the junior dev check who is responsible for the server?
- pluma 11y ago
  > what was the senior dev expecting? Ask for permission. Failing that, ask for forgiveness. It's rude to mess with other people's stuff, or even shared property. Imagine it wasn't a server but a conference room he decided to apply his vigilante justice to. The result may have been a positive surprise but being a junior there's also a good chance he was ignorant of the requirements and have made things worse for others. In an ideal workplace every requirement is documented and every policy is written down and laid out to every team member. In the real world it's better to expect not to know everything -- and that's a fairly valuable lesson to take away in a junior role. That said, the response may be blunt but it should never be angry, especially not beyond the scope of the actual intervention itself. If you're about to cause significant damage, it's okay to put that in drastic terms to make sure you stop right there. But it shouldn't be personal and it should be considered a learning experience by everyone involved. Everyone should be allowed to make mistakes. They should just be expected to learn from them and avoid making the same mistakes in the future.
- jlarocco 11y ago
  Does there really need to be a rule for that? If somebody is working on a server, and you know it, it's common sense not to mess with it.

chasing 11y ago

So lets pretend you're the older developer in this case. You've been tasked with setting up this server and you have a way you like servers to be set up. You and your team will be working on it, you want it set up just so. One morning before you arrive at work, junior dev Fred -- a nice kid, but definitely junior -- gets ahold of the server and starts monkeying around. It's not his job. It's not his server. And now you're either going to have to wipe the server and start fresh or get a debrief about what he has and has not done. And Fred's junior, as noted, so he doesn't always know the best way to do things (although, like many junior developers, he sure thinks he does!). So now you, senior dev, have this wild card that you just don't want to deal with because you're busy and doesn't Fred have other tasks on his plate? Why is he jumping all over your damned server? So you snap at Fred. "Get away from that -- it's mine, not yours. Please do your job and leave me to mine." Doesn't seem out of line to me.

matwood 11y ago
Actually seems in line to me as a learning moment for the junior dev. It's much like when I get a new puppy who wanders over to the the older dogs food bowl. The older dog gives a slight growl and the puppy has learned not to do that again, and one hopes in the general case (not all dogs are quite that nice). Hopefully as a junior dev this person learned a couple things here. First, that they do not know everything and second think how their actions will impact the team.
- tamana 11y ago
  Teaching new devs to stay away from teammates is not a good lesson. Humans have more complex relationships than dogs.
  - matwood 11y ago
    Actually it is teaching the opposite. Engage your teammates and ask first before thinking you know it all and start doing someone else's job.
niccaluim 11y ago

bsaunder 11y ago

Hi Fred, This is a challenging post, you seem to be getting knocked around with it quite a bit here. Hang in there. As you point out in your since published comment, treat this (and all your vignettes) as a learning experience. To help start you on your path for this post, I'll offer my 2 cents. First, try to write posts with positive messages (this one has an overwhelmingly negative tone despite your intentions). Perhaps recast the examples as learning experience. Think long and hard about the situations you describe and try to learn something. Then write a post on what you learned. Life's hard. Help others learn from your interactions (and learn yourself). Second, keep your issues to the real ones. It's okay to make a long list like this in a brainstorming session while a post is in the early draft stage, but try to trim down the stories to a handful of substantive ones (each with a lesson and reason for being there). In general, it seems you've been in some stressful situations (for yourself and others). People (even the most vaulted professionals) get cranky when things aren't going well - by whatever definition of well is for the context). You do seem to believe that transparency is a fundamental right. Its not. Noble, sure, but not ubiquitous or even always a good thing. Many times management will shield their reports from the disaster unfolding above them. Some times this is a good thing. It might be very distracting if everyone had perfect knowledge. I find its very important to have a good working relationship with your manager. Understand what motivates them and deliver on the tasks you are asked to (things can get messy when you "help" others (especially at the expense of your assigned tasks)). Much more to say, but I need to go deliver on some of my tasks now. Hang in there. Good luck. Write a second post with a positive spin on the major things you learned from this one.

fredwu 11y ago
Hi bsaunder, thank you so much for the advice and encouragement! Yep I can see why the negative tone is very off-putting to many people. Had I have a chance to do over I'd definitely do what you've suggested here and tackle it from the positive / lessons-learnt point of view. :) Many thanks! :)
humanrebar 11y ago
> You do seem to believe that transparency is a fundamental right. Its not. I wouldn't frame the issue in terms of rights, but management that hides relevant information is fundamentally dishonest and disrespectful. I wouldn't call it criminally fraudulent necessarily, but it's in the same spirit, though perhaps in a more grey area.

skywhopper 11y ago

I think what's missing is some resolution and reflection to each of the anecdotes. For many of them it's not clear to me what the point of the story was, or whether or not you thought you did anything wrong or not, or whether you understood the point of view of the (apparent) antagonist in each story. Context is lacking, too. When did these take place in the progression of your career? Has your perspective changed since the time the event happened?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

shams93 11y ago

Yeah if it was properly structured as a business you would never have had access to those resources to begin with. This kind of negative behavior is a relection of poor structure.

fit2rule 11y ago

Basically, we could all learn to mind our manners. Right?