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Absolutely. What troubles me - partly why I nearly always stay the hell out of discussions like this, the other part being that it seems to induce sealiony argu

Absolutely. What troubles me - partly why I nearly always stay the hell out of discussions like this, the other part being that it seems to induce sealiony arguments I don't care much for - is that an underlying attitude, though well-meaning, often seems to come from a reaction to the field being male-dominated: "women can (program|science|engineer|etc) too". I don't feel that the unspoken "too" part is all that helpful. Of course human beings can do things. This isn't some kind of secret "boys' club" invasion. For me, curiosity was the key. I saw my elder brother and dad doing stuff, and I wanted to join in and learn. No-one ever told me I couldn't: or if they did I was too hungry for knowledge, and too headstrong and precocious to listen - I can't honestly say a lot's changed about me! <g> If there's a solution to whatever problem we may have, maybe it's just that, and it's not just for girls, it's universal. I rarely gave a moment's thought to my peers' gender because I was thinking about the important part, what I was actually doing: and for the most part, save for a couple of sexist teachers (who were - an even bigger crime - totally useless at the subject they were trying to teach) nor did they.

anon4 11y ago
Maybe if we make it a secret boys' club and let them "invade" it and act all shocked when they do, they'll get it out of their systems and we'll be able to go on?
StavrosK 11y ago
I think that's spot on, and this kind of mentality definitely sounds like a show pony. I'm wondering if some female developers mistake "not being very good at what they do" for gender bias, because I've noticed that the women who are great at what they do don't talk as much about sexism. I don't have enough data to draw any conclusions, and maybe I'm just bitter because a conference we're trying to get off the ground was accused of sexism when all 8 speakers were men. The kicker is that none of the 70 talk proposals the conference received was by a woman...
- atom-morgan 11y ago
  > I'm wondering if some female developers mistake "not being very good at what they do" for gender bias Or they mistake a rude person at work as being sexist or racist when they're really just rude.
  - smt88 11y ago
    I agree with you in some cases, but sexism can be plain-old rudeness directed by men at women -- it's the quantity of it that makes the difference. Racism can follow the same pattern, or it can come in the form of a comment that wouldn't be racist if said to a non-minority. There's no universally agreed-upon definition of rude, and sexism and racism are very hard to define objectively. They're very context-specific and subjective, for the most part.
    - atom-morgan 11y ago
      > sexism can be plain-old rudeness directed by men at women No, that's a double standard. But if we're using the modern redefined version of sexism, yes you're right.
      - StavrosK 11y ago
        Well, it depends. If someone is rude exclusively to women, then it's unlikely to not be sexism.
      - awakeasleep 11y ago
        I disagree in two ways. First, being rude can mean pushing someone's buttons. People have easy buttons to push regarding their gender, orientation, race, etc. So even if your primary motivation wasn't to express hate for their whole category, you can contribute to * ism that way. Second, a more frequent expression of rude behavior to people of a class that you don't like is *ism even if you aren't using the forbidden slurs normally associated with whatever prejudice you're expressing.
        atom-morgan 11y ago
illumin8 11y ago
I can appreciate that you had a great environment with an older brother and father that encouraged you to participate in technical activities with them, but not everyone has the same environment. I think the sentiment the author is sharing is that a lot of women feel social pressures to appear outwardly successful, popular, etc, and this creates a very difficult situation where its perceived that asking a question that might make you sound stupid causes you to lose social status. This seems like a very tangible fear that a lot of women face, and I admire how she has conditioned herself to overcome this fear and it has helped her increase her knowledge and abilities. It's awesome that you've had a better experience, but I'm positive that many women have dropped out of CS curriculum because of some of these social factors. Recognizing this and trying to improve the state of things is a great goal to have.
- mynewtb 11y ago
  Nothing you wrote is different for men.
  - smt88 11y ago
    I think the implication is that the pressure is amplified for women in male-dominated situations and/or that the game is rigged. As a man, there's almost nothing you can do in your career where you gender works against you. Society's bias is that men are more competent, and it's been demonstrated in experiments many times (even among women!) I've heard many men express vocal shock upon hearing that a good PR (or whole project) was written by a woman. The game is definitely still rigged to varying degrees in programming.
    - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
      >Society's bias is that men are more competent, and it's been demonstrated in experiments many times (even among women!) // I'll have to read your citations to be sure [hint, hint; ie citations please] but presumably this is context sensitive. I've been mocked for being able to make a hot drink by a group of women ("Wow, a man who can make their own cup of tea!") and I've also been discriminated against at work ("Can we have the lady please" - I'm the one with the greater experience but it's in an area related to child care and so I'm assumed to be here to help my female colleague). Doesn't bother me, it's pretty petty after all, but it happens and it doesn't look like people assuming I'm more competent because of my sex; perhaps I'm mislead. As a father I also get remarks like "do you know where his mum is" when the baby is crying ... (and no it's not because they know the baby needs feeding).
splintercell 11y ago
> I rarely gave a moment's thought to my peers' gender because I was thinking about the important part, what I was actually doing: and for the most part, save for a couple of sexist teachers (who were - an even bigger crime - totally useless at the subject they were trying to teach) nor did they. < Something I have been coming around to understand. There are two kinds of people. a) People who live their lives for themselves b) People who live their lives for approval and satisfaction of others It's really important for people who live their lives for others that they get approval and validation from others. Without it, they won't ever take risks, they wouldn't hold strong opinions on anything (because that carries the risk of being wrong). You don't care about women engineer/programmer/scientist or anything because you didn't care about living a life whose end goal is approval from other people. However, those individuals who do live like this, something is worth doing only if others are doing it too because it means a general validation from the others. The problem of seeking other people's validation exists everywhere, across all genders. The solution is to teach people to not live second hand lives.
- insickness 11y ago
  >People who live their lives for approval and satisfaction of others Every human being seeks the validation from others. We are social creatures. It matters to us what other people think. We all live in the minds of others to some extent or another. We don't do things just for money, or just to get the job done. We do things because we know that someone, somewhere will appreciate our work. In fact, I would argue that all of mankind's greatest accomplishments have been the result of 'validation seeking.' The Nobel Prize, an Olympic Gold medal, a Pulitzer Prize--all are forms of awarding validation.
  - roymurdock 11y ago
    > all of mankind's greatest accomplishments have been the result of 'validation seeking.' Some people are motivated by validation, doing what they do for the prize and the recognition. Others are motivated by something else...a thirst for knowledge, or a test of their determination and intelligence. Some great thinkers and doers reject these prizes outright as they never wanted the recognition in the first place. Most people are motivated by a combination of the two, which is fine. Different strokes for different folks.
jimbokun 11y ago
"I saw my elder brother and dad doing stuff, and I wanted to join in and learn." I think this article is for those who didn't start early, but want to become good at programming or computer science, anyway. Of course, the same issues would be encountered by a man introduced to programming and CS for the first time at college, but statistically it's probably more likely for a woman to first become interested in these topics later in life.

anon4 11y ago

Maybe if we make it a secret boys' club and let them "invade" it and act all shocked when they do, they'll get it out of their systems and we'll be able to go on?

StavrosK 11y ago

I think that's spot on, and this kind of mentality definitely sounds like a show pony. I'm wondering if some female developers mistake "not being very good at what they do" for gender bias, because I've noticed that the women who are great at what they do don't talk as much about sexism. I don't have enough data to draw any conclusions, and maybe I'm just bitter because a conference we're trying to get off the ground was accused of sexism when all 8 speakers were men. The kicker is that none of the 70 talk proposals the conference received was by a woman...

atom-morgan 11y ago
> I'm wondering if some female developers mistake "not being very good at what they do" for gender bias Or they mistake a rude person at work as being sexist or racist when they're really just rude.
- smt88 11y ago
  I agree with you in some cases, but sexism can be plain-old rudeness directed by men at women -- it's the quantity of it that makes the difference. Racism can follow the same pattern, or it can come in the form of a comment that wouldn't be racist if said to a non-minority. There's no universally agreed-upon definition of rude, and sexism and racism are very hard to define objectively. They're very context-specific and subjective, for the most part.
  - atom-morgan 11y ago
    > sexism can be plain-old rudeness directed by men at women No, that's a double standard. But if we're using the modern redefined version of sexism, yes you're right.
    - StavrosK 11y ago
      Well, it depends. If someone is rude exclusively to women, then it's unlikely to not be sexism.
    - awakeasleep 11y ago
      I disagree in two ways. First, being rude can mean pushing someone's buttons. People have easy buttons to push regarding their gender, orientation, race, etc. So even if your primary motivation wasn't to express hate for their whole category, you can contribute to * ism that way. Second, a more frequent expression of rude behavior to people of a class that you don't like is *ism even if you aren't using the forbidden slurs normally associated with whatever prejudice you're expressing.
      - atom-morgan 11y ago

illumin8 11y ago

I can appreciate that you had a great environment with an older brother and father that encouraged you to participate in technical activities with them, but not everyone has the same environment. I think the sentiment the author is sharing is that a lot of women feel social pressures to appear outwardly successful, popular, etc, and this creates a very difficult situation where its perceived that asking a question that might make you sound stupid causes you to lose social status. This seems like a very tangible fear that a lot of women face, and I admire how she has conditioned herself to overcome this fear and it has helped her increase her knowledge and abilities. It's awesome that you've had a better experience, but I'm positive that many women have dropped out of CS curriculum because of some of these social factors. Recognizing this and trying to improve the state of things is a great goal to have.

mynewtb 11y ago
Nothing you wrote is different for men.
- smt88 11y ago
  I think the implication is that the pressure is amplified for women in male-dominated situations and/or that the game is rigged. As a man, there's almost nothing you can do in your career where you gender works against you. Society's bias is that men are more competent, and it's been demonstrated in experiments many times (even among women!) I've heard many men express vocal shock upon hearing that a good PR (or whole project) was written by a woman. The game is definitely still rigged to varying degrees in programming.
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    >Society's bias is that men are more competent, and it's been demonstrated in experiments many times (even among women!) // I'll have to read your citations to be sure [hint, hint; ie citations please] but presumably this is context sensitive. I've been mocked for being able to make a hot drink by a group of women ("Wow, a man who can make their own cup of tea!") and I've also been discriminated against at work ("Can we have the lady please" - I'm the one with the greater experience but it's in an area related to child care and so I'm assumed to be here to help my female colleague). Doesn't bother me, it's pretty petty after all, but it happens and it doesn't look like people assuming I'm more competent because of my sex; perhaps I'm mislead. As a father I also get remarks like "do you know where his mum is" when the baby is crying ... (and no it's not because they know the baby needs feeding).

splintercell 11y ago

> I rarely gave a moment's thought to my peers' gender because I was thinking about the important part, what I was actually doing: and for the most part, save for a couple of sexist teachers (who were - an even bigger crime - totally useless at the subject they were trying to teach) nor did they. < Something I have been coming around to understand. There are two kinds of people. a) People who live their lives for themselves b) People who live their lives for approval and satisfaction of others It's really important for people who live their lives for others that they get approval and validation from others. Without it, they won't ever take risks, they wouldn't hold strong opinions on anything (because that carries the risk of being wrong). You don't care about women engineer/programmer/scientist or anything because you didn't care about living a life whose end goal is approval from other people. However, those individuals who do live like this, something is worth doing only if others are doing it too because it means a general validation from the others. The problem of seeking other people's validation exists everywhere, across all genders. The solution is to teach people to not live second hand lives.

insickness 11y ago
>People who live their lives for approval and satisfaction of others Every human being seeks the validation from others. We are social creatures. It matters to us what other people think. We all live in the minds of others to some extent or another. We don't do things just for money, or just to get the job done. We do things because we know that someone, somewhere will appreciate our work. In fact, I would argue that all of mankind's greatest accomplishments have been the result of 'validation seeking.' The Nobel Prize, an Olympic Gold medal, a Pulitzer Prize--all are forms of awarding validation.
- roymurdock 11y ago
  > all of mankind's greatest accomplishments have been the result of 'validation seeking.' Some people are motivated by validation, doing what they do for the prize and the recognition. Others are motivated by something else...a thirst for knowledge, or a test of their determination and intelligence. Some great thinkers and doers reject these prizes outright as they never wanted the recognition in the first place. Most people are motivated by a combination of the two, which is fine. Different strokes for different folks.

jimbokun 11y ago

"I saw my elder brother and dad doing stuff, and I wanted to join in and learn." I think this article is for those who didn't start early, but want to become good at programming or computer science, anyway. Of course, the same issues would be encountered by a man introduced to programming and CS for the first time at college, but statistically it's probably more likely for a woman to first become interested in these topics later in life.