7 ms·

Could this phenomenon happen because of stress ? I've done several interviews where I was asked to code and I really don't think it's easy, because you're unde

by cake 17y ago

Could this phenomenon happen because of stress ? I've done several interviews where I was asked to code and I really don't think it's easy, because you're under intense pressure of doing your task right the first time and under a very tight time frame. Sometimes even with your interviewer sitting next to you.

RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
The whole point is to use a task so trivial that even moderate amounts of stress won't prevent your fingers from taking over. That's why people who criticize "FizzBuzz" as not testing the true requirements for a job are simply wrong. All you want is some real code that produces a correct answer. My programmers wrote FizzBuzz in under 60 seconds. If you can't write FizzBuzz in 15 minutes in an interview then you are either unable to program, or any level of stress will prevent you from doing your job. Either way, you couldn't work for me. I don't routinely stress my programmers, but stress is a matter of observable fact.
- _delirium 17y ago
  Yeah, I think it's a good test for that reason. I personally would probably do badly on a complicated programming test--- I tend to program best when not in a room with other people, not being put on the spot, allowed to think while walking around outside and then return to a burst of coding, etc. But I could write a few lines of obvious code in pretty much any situation; there's a pretty big difference between peak performance and absolute minimal competence. It's hard to make analogies to other fields, but it feels sort of like a writing job not asking you to write an insightful philosophy essay on the spot (legitimately difficult), but just asking you to write a paragraph of grammatical English (anyone even remotely fit for the job should be able to do it).
- Retric 17y ago
  I don't think it's just stress. Few programmers actually write correct code on a whiteboard / pen and paper so expecting them to accurately program outside of their preferred environment can be vary hard for some people. It's something like asking an author to spell out an essay, plenty of people can do it but it's a separate skill from being a good writer. PS: Try composing your response by saying one letter out loud at a time without typing it before you type it.
  - j_baker 17y ago
    I've had employers ask me to bring my own laptop and have me write my code on it in front of them. That reduces the "whiteboard effect" tremendously.
    - WorkerBee 17y ago
      I'd fail: I don't own a laptop.
    - Luyt 17y ago
      That would be a good solution for me, too. For example: It's years ago since I used Visual C on Windows, but I use C++Builder daily. I can whip up a good looking, surprise-free, standards-adhering, well behaved GUI in minutes and flesh it out to a fully functional application without hesitation in the hours after. If you'd put me behind Visual C I'd probably be looking for minutes to find the Dialog Editor (errr.... is that Windows Forms nowadays? Hmmm, I should give .Net a look someday).
  - diN0bot 17y ago
    it's not that different. good programmers sketch the algorithm or data model or architecture on paper first----or however they figure out what they're doing before sitting in front of a computer. writing a program by hand is not cruel and unusual, it's quite realistic. it's like a musician site reading, not an author writing an essay by spelling letters. (site reading is a skill that comes with being a musician. i can site read music that i would have had to learn to play in the past. i always prefer to read challenging music, but i can play comparatively easy music with little problem.)
    - plinkplonk 17y ago
      "it's like a musician site reading," I presume you meant sight reading. Threw me for a couple of seconds.
    - nandemo 17y ago
      Agreed, except that FizzBuzz is more on the level of "play me the G major scale" than sight reading.
- radu_floricica 17y ago
  Social stress is different from deadlines. How you conduct the interview is important in this respect, but still FizzBuzz is the correct approach. It would help though if the interviewer made it clear that it's supposed to be a warming-up test, and there is no catch to be looked for.
- matwood 17y ago
  Wow, so it's been so long since I've had a 'programming' test I had to go look up the FizzBuzz test. A first year compsci student should be able to whip up a solution in minutes. I can't believe that people try for programming jobs and fail FizzBuzz.
j_baker 17y ago
This is a valid point. In my experience, the best interviewers are the ones that don't make me feel like I'm in an interview. It feels like I'm just chatting with a fellow hacker. This makes me much less anxious and stressed. They're the ones who get the most realistic view of me as a programmer (for better or worse).
- RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
  It's a common mis-conception, but we're not talking about the stage where I'm trying to get an accurate picture of what you'll be like in the job. It's still the very first stage of the interview process, and we're not yet at the stage where we need to decide which of several demonstrably competent programmers we want. We're talking about weeding out people who simply can't write programs at all. The realistic view of your ability comes later in a second, or even third interview. At that stage we will also talk about system/program/algorithm design skills, ability to work with others, willingness to travel, preferred working hours, and a whole bunch of other stuff to get an idea of how you add value to the company, and how well you will fit with the existing staff and ethos. But if you can't write something as simple as FizzBuzz in under 15 minutes in a slightly strange environment, you probably won't be able to program well enough here in this company to bother with the other questions. Working here requires more than just producing code in your ideal environment without working with others. I suspect we're not alone in that. EDIT: I've corrected a few typos. To the person that down-voted me - thanks - you made me read it again and realise that it wasn't as clear as it might've been. I was on my way to a meeting and wrote it in a hurry. Although still not perfect, I think it's better now. To others who might choose to down-vote it, I'd appreciate any insights as to why. Sometimes I hold unusual, eccentric, or unpopular opinions, and I'm willing to bear the consequences of that, but I'd really appreciate the opportunity to learn what you disagree with. Please, share your thoughts, don't just down-vote without giving people a chance to consider what you think.
  - Retric 17y ago
    Google lost a lot of good people by dragging out their interview process. It's not all or nothing, but if I disliked the first interview I am unlikely to be interested in doing a second one. In the back of my mind I can't help but wonder if I want to work for people desperate enough to jump though these hoops.
trevelyan 17y ago
You know... I once had an experience like this when asked to do a trivial task (on paper) as part of a screening process. The interviewer didn't want pseudo-code but said any language would be fine. They wanted to know how I'd store a list of numbers and return the max. I asked about the data structure several times as I thought they were looking for a generalizable solution that could be used with arbitrary objects and wanted to know if I had to define a separate class to implement a linked list or if I could just use a vector. This made the interviewer increasingly flustered because from his perspective the data storage architecture didn't matter and the answer was simple. I later found out he simply wanted to track the largest item on insert with a separate int and return that on max() - this was their concept of a good programmer, despite the fact it would be unnecessary and inefficient in any ordered list). After a few minutes he concluded I couldn't program and moved to end the interview. I decided that if communication problems were this bad (probably my fault as well), this wouldn't be a good place to work. And I was also sort of shocked he hadn't bothered to vet any of the public coding work I'd done. Who brings people into interviews totally blind? So while I might have been sympathetic to this article before, I wouldn't be so quick to blame the programmers. I was irritated this company had wasted my time, and probably vice versa. I don't know what the solution is for employers, but the solution for job-seekers is to require people to look at code you've produced before you meet them in person, and bring a laptop so you don't need to stare dumbly at paper while you try to remember the exact way to initialize a vector of pointers in C++. Either that or do a phone interview first to get this stuff out of the way.
- Sukotto 17y ago
  Did you use a headhunter of placement place? They often cut all identifying info out of a resume before passing it onto the interviewer. That way they can't be cut out of the conversation when it comes time to talk about money.

by cake 17y ago

RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago

The whole point is to use a task so trivial that even moderate amounts of stress won't prevent your fingers from taking over. That's why people who criticize "FizzBuzz" as not testing the true requirements for a job are simply wrong. All you want is some real code that produces a correct answer. My programmers wrote FizzBuzz in under 60 seconds. If you can't write FizzBuzz in 15 minutes in an interview then you are either unable to program, or any level of stress will prevent you from doing your job. Either way, you couldn't work for me. I don't routinely stress my programmers, but stress is a matter of observable fact.

_delirium 17y ago
Yeah, I think it's a good test for that reason. I personally would probably do badly on a complicated programming test--- I tend to program best when not in a room with other people, not being put on the spot, allowed to think while walking around outside and then return to a burst of coding, etc. But I could write a few lines of obvious code in pretty much any situation; there's a pretty big difference between peak performance and absolute minimal competence. It's hard to make analogies to other fields, but it feels sort of like a writing job not asking you to write an insightful philosophy essay on the spot (legitimately difficult), but just asking you to write a paragraph of grammatical English (anyone even remotely fit for the job should be able to do it).
Retric 17y ago
I don't think it's just stress. Few programmers actually write correct code on a whiteboard / pen and paper so expecting them to accurately program outside of their preferred environment can be vary hard for some people. It's something like asking an author to spell out an essay, plenty of people can do it but it's a separate skill from being a good writer. PS: Try composing your response by saying one letter out loud at a time without typing it before you type it.
- j_baker 17y ago
  I've had employers ask me to bring my own laptop and have me write my code on it in front of them. That reduces the "whiteboard effect" tremendously.
  - WorkerBee 17y ago
    I'd fail: I don't own a laptop.
  - Luyt 17y ago
    That would be a good solution for me, too. For example: It's years ago since I used Visual C on Windows, but I use C++Builder daily. I can whip up a good looking, surprise-free, standards-adhering, well behaved GUI in minutes and flesh it out to a fully functional application without hesitation in the hours after. If you'd put me behind Visual C I'd probably be looking for minutes to find the Dialog Editor (errr.... is that Windows Forms nowadays? Hmmm, I should give .Net a look someday).
- diN0bot 17y ago
  it's not that different. good programmers sketch the algorithm or data model or architecture on paper first----or however they figure out what they're doing before sitting in front of a computer. writing a program by hand is not cruel and unusual, it's quite realistic. it's like a musician site reading, not an author writing an essay by spelling letters. (site reading is a skill that comes with being a musician. i can site read music that i would have had to learn to play in the past. i always prefer to read challenging music, but i can play comparatively easy music with little problem.)
  - plinkplonk 17y ago
    "it's like a musician site reading," I presume you meant sight reading. Threw me for a couple of seconds.
  - nandemo 17y ago
    Agreed, except that FizzBuzz is more on the level of "play me the G major scale" than sight reading.
radu_floricica 17y ago
Social stress is different from deadlines. How you conduct the interview is important in this respect, but still FizzBuzz is the correct approach. It would help though if the interviewer made it clear that it's supposed to be a warming-up test, and there is no catch to be looked for.
matwood 17y ago
Wow, so it's been so long since I've had a 'programming' test I had to go look up the FizzBuzz test. A first year compsci student should be able to whip up a solution in minutes. I can't believe that people try for programming jobs and fail FizzBuzz.

j_baker 17y ago

This is a valid point. In my experience, the best interviewers are the ones that don't make me feel like I'm in an interview. It feels like I'm just chatting with a fellow hacker. This makes me much less anxious and stressed. They're the ones who get the most realistic view of me as a programmer (for better or worse).

RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
It's a common mis-conception, but we're not talking about the stage where I'm trying to get an accurate picture of what you'll be like in the job. It's still the very first stage of the interview process, and we're not yet at the stage where we need to decide which of several demonstrably competent programmers we want. We're talking about weeding out people who simply can't write programs at all. The realistic view of your ability comes later in a second, or even third interview. At that stage we will also talk about system/program/algorithm design skills, ability to work with others, willingness to travel, preferred working hours, and a whole bunch of other stuff to get an idea of how you add value to the company, and how well you will fit with the existing staff and ethos. But if you can't write something as simple as FizzBuzz in under 15 minutes in a slightly strange environment, you probably won't be able to program well enough here in this company to bother with the other questions. Working here requires more than just producing code in your ideal environment without working with others. I suspect we're not alone in that. EDIT: I've corrected a few typos. To the person that down-voted me - thanks - you made me read it again and realise that it wasn't as clear as it might've been. I was on my way to a meeting and wrote it in a hurry. Although still not perfect, I think it's better now. To others who might choose to down-vote it, I'd appreciate any insights as to why. Sometimes I hold unusual, eccentric, or unpopular opinions, and I'm willing to bear the consequences of that, but I'd really appreciate the opportunity to learn what you disagree with. Please, share your thoughts, don't just down-vote without giving people a chance to consider what you think.
- Retric 17y ago
  Google lost a lot of good people by dragging out their interview process. It's not all or nothing, but if I disliked the first interview I am unlikely to be interested in doing a second one. In the back of my mind I can't help but wonder if I want to work for people desperate enough to jump though these hoops.

trevelyan 17y ago

You know... I once had an experience like this when asked to do a trivial task (on paper) as part of a screening process. The interviewer didn't want pseudo-code but said any language would be fine. They wanted to know how I'd store a list of numbers and return the max. I asked about the data structure several times as I thought they were looking for a generalizable solution that could be used with arbitrary objects and wanted to know if I had to define a separate class to implement a linked list or if I could just use a vector. This made the interviewer increasingly flustered because from his perspective the data storage architecture didn't matter and the answer was simple. I later found out he simply wanted to track the largest item on insert with a separate int and return that on max() - this was their concept of a good programmer, despite the fact it would be unnecessary and inefficient in any ordered list). After a few minutes he concluded I couldn't program and moved to end the interview. I decided that if communication problems were this bad (probably my fault as well), this wouldn't be a good place to work. And I was also sort of shocked he hadn't bothered to vet any of the public coding work I'd done. Who brings people into interviews totally blind? So while I might have been sympathetic to this article before, I wouldn't be so quick to blame the programmers. I was irritated this company had wasted my time, and probably vice versa. I don't know what the solution is for employers, but the solution for job-seekers is to require people to look at code you've produced before you meet them in person, and bring a laptop so you don't need to stare dumbly at paper while you try to remember the exact way to initialize a vector of pointers in C++. Either that or do a phone interview first to get this stuff out of the way.

Sukotto 17y ago
Did you use a headhunter of placement place? They often cut all identifying info out of a resume before passing it onto the interviewer. That way they can't be cut out of the conversation when it comes time to talk about money.