6 ms·

"..that a beginner could build in a day.." Yeah... the clue is that an entire bureaucracy is required before even the first line of code was written. This thin

by noja 11y ago

"..that a beginner could build in a day.." Yeah... the clue is that an entire bureaucracy is required before even the first line of code was written. This thing probably took months and months of meetings with tons of people before the prototype was written.

zappo2938 11y ago
Do you know how many bike sheds they could have painted with the man hours?
pink_dinner 11y ago
Exactly. I used to work with a government contracting company. The simplest piece of software took many thousands of dollars in lawyer fees and compliancy. A beginner dev could build many simple web applications in a day. However, it will probably have security holes and spaghetti code.
- gglover 11y ago
  I don't think lawyer fees imply anything about the code quality. See: HealthCare.gov fiasco.
  - jonesb6 11y ago
    I think OP meant that bootstrapped code, written as quickly as the developer feels like writing it on a weekend, has its own flaws as well.
    - ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
      Though an app showing a randomized arrow veers closely into, well, not Hello World, but an intro example for developing a mobile app. There's not going to be a lot of code to spaghetti-ize.
      - AndyNemmity 11y ago
        In Enterprise software? You'd be surprised...
  - ori_b 11y ago
    It implies that you know who to sue if code quality isn't up to scratch. This is important to large organizations for some reason. Even though it may be cheaper to just do it 10 times over with cheap one person shops and throw out the worst 9.
    - scrollaway 11y ago
      And who was sued in the case of the Healthcare.gov debacle? I get the feeling this "knowing who to sue" saying is a bit of a myth.
      - ori_b 11y ago
        I suspect that the myth is that anyone will follow through on it. The ass covering is probably real.
- hiimnate 11y ago
  >security holes It's an arrow that points in one of two directions. I can not think of a single way this could be made insecure. Even if someone was able to influence the direction the arrow was pointing, everyone is still going through the same ineffective screening process.
  - odinduty 11y ago
    They could hack into the iPad to make it display this: http://www.thecleverest.com/countdown.swf http://www.thecleverest.com/countdown.swf High chance somebody gets shot.
    - rimantas 11y ago
      That's a lot of hacking to display Flash on iPad :)
  - Johnny555 11y ago
    One way it could be made insecure would be if it didn't use a good source of randomness, so the arrow direction could be predicted. A worst case example would be if the app just cycled through a fixed table of "random" choices like "L R L L R L R R", then the attacker could just watch the pattern and position himself in the line appropriately to make sure that his buddy Joe is the one to screen him. repositioning is easy, just dig through your bag and say to the guy behind you "I can't find my passport, you can go in front of me".
    - Scoundreller 11y ago
      That problem would be solved by making the app very unstable and require constant restarts ;)
    - gambiting 11y ago
      And all of this trouble to achieve.....what exactly?
      - 11y ago
drdeadringer 11y ago
What would happen if, some fraction of the way through the long stretch of bureaucratic meetings, someone just coded a prototype? If they sit on it and whip it out the moment the green light is given, then what? If they whip it out at the next red-tape meeting, then what?
- tdicola 11y ago
  Their manager will have a stern talking to them about how 'this isn't how we operate' and 'you broke protocol' and 'made everyone look bad'. They'd be reassigned to the most boring and menial tasks until they quit.
- grecy 11y ago
  I can tell you what happens. I worked at a very large telco. We went through months of daily meeting with 10+ very expensive execs, PMs and Business Primes from all over the business. One day the only other coder in the room leaned over to me and said "Are we still talking about <x,y,z> that you or I could code in 10 minutes?" Yes, we were. I coded it and showed my managers and so forth. I was completely ignored, and the meetings rolled on. In a place like that, there are so many people that have job titles that have nothing to do with "getting it done", which in a funny way makes them less interested in getting it done. Their job is to analyze, plan, document, process map, etc. etc. so that's what they're going to do, no matter how trivial the thing is.
  - AndyNemmity 11y ago
    Exactly! I would argue it creates MORE red tape and work to do that, than less. I've done it, I've seen it, it actually makes your life worse, not better.
    - grecy 11y ago
      When I stopped trying to make that place better (I'm banging my head against the wall) and started just going with the flow, I knew it was time to leave.
  - 11y ago
AndyNemmity 11y ago
Yep. You have the AE, and then the AE on a large project has another AE with him. Then you have a solution captain. Then you have the COE that comes in that actually knows something. Then an architect to design the thing. Then you have others who actually do the thing. Then you have a PM to schedule meetings, and bitch at the doers to do the thing. Then you have all the daily meetings to communicate to all of those people the messaging. Then you have the meetings to clarify all the wrong messaging that went in some of those meetings. Then you have the meetings for the customer facing communication. Then you have the customer communication. I'm not even close to done...

by noja 11y ago

zappo2938 11y ago

Do you know how many bike sheds they could have painted with the man hours?

pink_dinner 11y ago

Exactly. I used to work with a government contracting company. The simplest piece of software took many thousands of dollars in lawyer fees and compliancy. A beginner dev could build many simple web applications in a day. However, it will probably have security holes and spaghetti code.

gglover 11y ago
I don't think lawyer fees imply anything about the code quality. See: HealthCare.gov fiasco.
- jonesb6 11y ago
  I think OP meant that bootstrapped code, written as quickly as the developer feels like writing it on a weekend, has its own flaws as well.
  - ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
    Though an app showing a randomized arrow veers closely into, well, not Hello World, but an intro example for developing a mobile app. There's not going to be a lot of code to spaghetti-ize.
    - AndyNemmity 11y ago
      In Enterprise software? You'd be surprised...
- ori_b 11y ago
  It implies that you know who to sue if code quality isn't up to scratch. This is important to large organizations for some reason. Even though it may be cheaper to just do it 10 times over with cheap one person shops and throw out the worst 9.
  - scrollaway 11y ago
    And who was sued in the case of the Healthcare.gov debacle? I get the feeling this "knowing who to sue" saying is a bit of a myth.
    - ori_b 11y ago
      I suspect that the myth is that anyone will follow through on it. The ass covering is probably real.
hiimnate 11y ago
>security holes It's an arrow that points in one of two directions. I can not think of a single way this could be made insecure. Even if someone was able to influence the direction the arrow was pointing, everyone is still going through the same ineffective screening process.
- odinduty 11y ago
  They could hack into the iPad to make it display this: http://www.thecleverest.com/countdown.swf http://www.thecleverest.com/countdown.swf High chance somebody gets shot.
  - rimantas 11y ago
    That's a lot of hacking to display Flash on iPad :)
- Johnny555 11y ago
  One way it could be made insecure would be if it didn't use a good source of randomness, so the arrow direction could be predicted. A worst case example would be if the app just cycled through a fixed table of "random" choices like "L R L L R L R R", then the attacker could just watch the pattern and position himself in the line appropriately to make sure that his buddy Joe is the one to screen him. repositioning is easy, just dig through your bag and say to the guy behind you "I can't find my passport, you can go in front of me".
  - Scoundreller 11y ago
    That problem would be solved by making the app very unstable and require constant restarts ;)
  - gambiting 11y ago
    And all of this trouble to achieve.....what exactly?
    - 11y ago

drdeadringer 11y ago

What would happen if, some fraction of the way through the long stretch of bureaucratic meetings, someone just coded a prototype? If they sit on it and whip it out the moment the green light is given, then what? If they whip it out at the next red-tape meeting, then what?

tdicola 11y ago
Their manager will have a stern talking to them about how 'this isn't how we operate' and 'you broke protocol' and 'made everyone look bad'. They'd be reassigned to the most boring and menial tasks until they quit.
grecy 11y ago
I can tell you what happens. I worked at a very large telco. We went through months of daily meeting with 10+ very expensive execs, PMs and Business Primes from all over the business. One day the only other coder in the room leaned over to me and said "Are we still talking about <x,y,z> that you or I could code in 10 minutes?" Yes, we were. I coded it and showed my managers and so forth. I was completely ignored, and the meetings rolled on. In a place like that, there are so many people that have job titles that have nothing to do with "getting it done", which in a funny way makes them less interested in getting it done. Their job is to analyze, plan, document, process map, etc. etc. so that's what they're going to do, no matter how trivial the thing is.
- AndyNemmity 11y ago
  Exactly! I would argue it creates MORE red tape and work to do that, than less. I've done it, I've seen it, it actually makes your life worse, not better.
  - grecy 11y ago
    When I stopped trying to make that place better (I'm banging my head against the wall) and started just going with the flow, I knew it was time to leave.
- 11y ago

AndyNemmity 11y ago

Yep. You have the AE, and then the AE on a large project has another AE with him. Then you have a solution captain. Then you have the COE that comes in that actually knows something. Then an architect to design the thing. Then you have others who actually do the thing. Then you have a PM to schedule meetings, and bitch at the doers to do the thing. Then you have all the daily meetings to communicate to all of those people the messaging. Then you have the meetings to clarify all the wrong messaging that went in some of those meetings. Then you have the meetings for the customer facing communication. Then you have the customer communication. I'm not even close to done...