4 ms·

It's self-evident why the middle class can't outbid rich families for single family homes near employment centers: the rich have more money and they want to liv

by natrius 11y ago

It's self-evident why the middle class can't outbid rich families for single family homes near employment centers: the rich have more money and they want to live there too. But for dilapidated homes that are ready to be torn down, the strategy for outbidding the rich is clear: rich families who want to build a big home with a big yard can be outbid by several middle class families who are willing to live in smaller homes with smaller yards. The problem is that we've made it illegal for the middle class to outbid the rich. Single family zoning laws have always been intended to segregate people by income, but the economics of urban growth have made the middle class the victims of the segregation laws they've always supported. The effects are most egregious in high employment areas with predominantly single family zoning, like Silicon Valley, Seattle, and Austin, where I live. In Austin, the vast majority of the city is blanketed with laws that make it harder for the middle class to outbid the rich than any city in Texas. Where Houston allows four families to build homes to outbid the rich, Austin only allows one. It's no surprise that we're the most economically segregated city in the country[1], and the only growing city that has a shrinking black population[2]. We must fight to desegregate our cities. The middle class is suffering not because they can't afford to outbid the rich, but because it's illegal to outbid the rich. [1] https://www.texastribune.org/2015/02/23/austin-most-economically-segregated-metro-area/ https://www.texastribune.org/2015/02/23/austin-most-economic... [2] http://kut.org/post/austins-population-booming-why-its-african-american-population-shrinking http://kut.org/post/austins-population-booming-why-its-afric...

erikpukinskis 11y ago
I wonder if anyone could have standing to sue a municipality to change the zoning laws on these grounds, under the civil rights act.
- natrius 11y ago
  This has been done before with cities who were more egregiously discriminatory with their zoning, as I mention in the long form of this argument[1]. I don't know what hurdles are in the way of using the courts to end this subtle segregation, but we should definitely find out and make it happen. Economic segregation is the whole point of density-based zoning. It is widely supported by property owners. If we can't convince them that they are beneficiaries of unjust laws, then the courts are our best option. [1] https://medium.com/@niranbabalola/we-must-repeal-our-segregation-laws-32348d090520 https://medium.com/@niranbabalola/we-must-repeal-our-segrega...
  - erikpukinskis 11y ago
    I think we are already convincing people with the cultural benefits. Who doesn't want to live in a neighborhood where the people who defined that neighborhood are still around as your neighbors, to be together in public places and share in the uniqueness of your home together. I believe the homeowners of this generation do want this.
- verg 11y ago
  Yuma Az was just successfully sued for zoning laws under the fair housing act. http://www.citylab.com/housing/2016/04/court-decision-on-disparate-impact-and-density-in-yuma-arizona/476232/ http://www.citylab.com/housing/2016/04/court-decision-on-dis... Another group is trying to sue Lafayette, Ca http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/09/suing-the-suburbs-over-the-san-francisco-housing-crunch/404314/?utm_source=nl__link3_091015 http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/09/suing-the-suburbs-ove... Edit: fixed first link
ConroyBumpus 11y ago
That's because Houston has no zoning.
- natrius 11y ago
  Zoning by use (residential, commercial, industrial, etc.) is just one of many land use tools. There are tons of rules in Houston about how much land you need for a building and what you can actually build, as well as restrictive covenants in individual deeds that limit what can be built. We don't need to eliminate zoning, but density-based zoning is guaranteed to cause economic segregation. That's what it's for. We should eliminate it in our central cities and employment centers.
ilaksh 11y ago
http://tinyvillages.org http://tinyvillages.org
lr4444lr 11y ago
>"Single family zoning laws have always been intended to segregate people by income" That is completely unfounded.
- natrius 11y ago
  I haven't found a citation on this, but I'm pretty confident that the folks who gave us explicit racial segregation said some pretty terrible things about poor people that I'll be able to cite. Unfortunately, the time I can spend on this is limited.
- givinguflac 11y ago
  Whether or not it was the intention, that's been the effect. In a small town I grew up in, a commuter train line was installed and the place started to grow. They implemented minimum two acre lot sizes for all new construction; not many can afford such a huge lot, nevermind building the house afterwards.
jseliger 11y ago
We must fight to desegregate our cities. The middle class is suffering not because they can't afford to outbid the rich, but because it's illegal to outbid the rich. No: The middle class is suffering because it's illegal to building housing for them. See http://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-future-in-seattle-do-millennials-have-a-future-in-any-superstar-cities/ http://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-futu... or The Rent Is Too Damn High http://www.amazon.com/TheRent-Too-Damn-High-Matters-ebook/dp/B0078XGJXO http://www.amazon.com/TheRent-Too-Damn-High-Matters-ebook/dp.... If you restrict the supply of a good in the face of increasing demand, prices rise. The rest is commentary.
- natrius 11y ago
  We're saying the same thing. I've found that it's harder to convince people when I talk about buildings and economics, so I talk about the families our laws prevent from living in our neighborhoods.
- cloakandswagger 11y ago
  Great write up on the subject Jake. Sadly, I think your hypothesis that emotional arguments will always drown out rational ones is correct. Too many of the self-described progressives in places like Seattle and San Francisco are too entrenched to admit that market forces (or more accurately, the resistance of them) is the real problem.
- jordanb 11y ago
  You're violently agreeing. The point is, you take a large lot, you could build a condo building on it with five units, or you could build a large SFU. The OP's argument is five middle class people could outbid the rich guy. Except that the condo is illegal, the area is zoned for single family. Another issue here is the wealth disparity. I think your typical millionaire could easily outbid five middle class families or even ten middle class families.
  - 46Bit 11y ago
    > Another issue here is the wealth disparity. I think your typical millionaire could easily outbid five middle class families or even ten middle class families. They often could, but would they choose to? Less trivially.
MicroBerto 11y ago
Austinite too. It's a mess that's growing out of control, but thankfully I find the suburbs more attractive as I age. Huge issue is that the real estate market is growing faster than wages are. So you need to be able to throw down serious cash if you want in. I'm of the conclusion that you either better hustle hard and make a ton of money or move further out and schedule your commute accordingly. It's not going to change nor will the counsel fix it. I personally think that Central areas have reached bubble status. Total dumpster fires going for nearly a million? Might as well move to the ocean for that much! Anyway, I honestly don't think it's worth fighting. If you want in, the better solution is figuring out how you're going to get 200k cash in your bank account without devastating your life, and fast. Otherwise rent all your life, or see ya in Leander. Pick one.
- natrius 11y ago
  I can afford to buy in central Austin. We should fight for those who can't. This is a battle that can be won, and if you're interested in helping, join Friends of Austin Neighborhoods, a group of individuals and neighborhood associations who love their neighborhoods and want to share them with others. http://www.atxfriends.org/ http://www.atxfriends.org/
nostrademons 11y ago
Much of Silicon Valley is actually zoned multi-family. The big problem here is height restrictions, not single vs. multi-family.
dsmithatx 11y ago
While I mostly agree with the context of what you are saying... Austin was segregated long before we had zoning or high paying tech jobs. As for the shrinking population of black people I believe this is more due to culture than anything. Austin never has had a very large black population and as I said always been quite segregated. The culture in Austin is and has always been very white compared to cities that were much larger like Dallas and Houston. My friends that have moved away due to this have told me they just don't feel like there are enough places for them to go to on Friday/Saturday night. For us white folks there is an insane amount of things to do culture wise, especially if you are into music. Also Austin never had jobs compared to other large metros in Texas until the tech jobs came. You either worked at the State, UT or pretty much waited tables.
- dsmithatx 11y ago
  One other thing. The bay area interestingly has hills much like Austin. This surely has to do with high cost of housing in specific areas. The closer you get to the hills the more it cost to live. Now with the number of people moving here the center of town gets more unaffordable. If the amount of people moving here continues I don't think multi use housing can fix this fast enough.

by natrius 11y ago

erikpukinskis 11y ago

I wonder if anyone could have standing to sue a municipality to change the zoning laws on these grounds, under the civil rights act.

natrius 11y ago
This has been done before with cities who were more egregiously discriminatory with their zoning, as I mention in the long form of this argument[1]. I don't know what hurdles are in the way of using the courts to end this subtle segregation, but we should definitely find out and make it happen. Economic segregation is the whole point of density-based zoning. It is widely supported by property owners. If we can't convince them that they are beneficiaries of unjust laws, then the courts are our best option. [1] https://medium.com/@niranbabalola/we-must-repeal-our-segregation-laws-32348d090520 https://medium.com/@niranbabalola/we-must-repeal-our-segrega...
- erikpukinskis 11y ago
  I think we are already convincing people with the cultural benefits. Who doesn't want to live in a neighborhood where the people who defined that neighborhood are still around as your neighbors, to be together in public places and share in the uniqueness of your home together. I believe the homeowners of this generation do want this.
verg 11y ago
Yuma Az was just successfully sued for zoning laws under the fair housing act. http://www.citylab.com/housing/2016/04/court-decision-on-disparate-impact-and-density-in-yuma-arizona/476232/ http://www.citylab.com/housing/2016/04/court-decision-on-dis... Another group is trying to sue Lafayette, Ca http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/09/suing-the-suburbs-over-the-san-francisco-housing-crunch/404314/?utm_source=nl__link3_091015 http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/09/suing-the-suburbs-ove... Edit: fixed first link

ConroyBumpus 11y ago

That's because Houston has no zoning.

natrius 11y ago
Zoning by use (residential, commercial, industrial, etc.) is just one of many land use tools. There are tons of rules in Houston about how much land you need for a building and what you can actually build, as well as restrictive covenants in individual deeds that limit what can be built. We don't need to eliminate zoning, but density-based zoning is guaranteed to cause economic segregation. That's what it's for. We should eliminate it in our central cities and employment centers.

ilaksh 11y ago

http://tinyvillages.org http://tinyvillages.org

lr4444lr 11y ago

>"Single family zoning laws have always been intended to segregate people by income" That is completely unfounded.

natrius 11y ago
I haven't found a citation on this, but I'm pretty confident that the folks who gave us explicit racial segregation said some pretty terrible things about poor people that I'll be able to cite. Unfortunately, the time I can spend on this is limited.
givinguflac 11y ago
Whether or not it was the intention, that's been the effect. In a small town I grew up in, a commuter train line was installed and the place started to grow. They implemented minimum two acre lot sizes for all new construction; not many can afford such a huge lot, nevermind building the house afterwards.

jseliger 11y ago

We must fight to desegregate our cities. The middle class is suffering not because they can't afford to outbid the rich, but because it's illegal to outbid the rich. No: The middle class is suffering because it's illegal to building housing for them. See http://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-future-in-seattle-do-millennials-have-a-future-in-any-superstar-cities/ http://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-futu... or The Rent Is Too Damn High http://www.amazon.com/TheRent-Too-Damn-High-Matters-ebook/dp/B0078XGJXO http://www.amazon.com/TheRent-Too-Damn-High-Matters-ebook/dp.... If you restrict the supply of a good in the face of increasing demand, prices rise. The rest is commentary.

natrius 11y ago
We're saying the same thing. I've found that it's harder to convince people when I talk about buildings and economics, so I talk about the families our laws prevent from living in our neighborhoods.
cloakandswagger 11y ago
Great write up on the subject Jake. Sadly, I think your hypothesis that emotional arguments will always drown out rational ones is correct. Too many of the self-described progressives in places like Seattle and San Francisco are too entrenched to admit that market forces (or more accurately, the resistance of them) is the real problem.
jordanb 11y ago
You're violently agreeing. The point is, you take a large lot, you could build a condo building on it with five units, or you could build a large SFU. The OP's argument is five middle class people could outbid the rich guy. Except that the condo is illegal, the area is zoned for single family. Another issue here is the wealth disparity. I think your typical millionaire could easily outbid five middle class families or even ten middle class families.
- 46Bit 11y ago
  > Another issue here is the wealth disparity. I think your typical millionaire could easily outbid five middle class families or even ten middle class families. They often could, but would they choose to? Less trivially.

MicroBerto 11y ago

Austinite too. It's a mess that's growing out of control, but thankfully I find the suburbs more attractive as I age. Huge issue is that the real estate market is growing faster than wages are. So you need to be able to throw down serious cash if you want in. I'm of the conclusion that you either better hustle hard and make a ton of money or move further out and schedule your commute accordingly. It's not going to change nor will the counsel fix it. I personally think that Central areas have reached bubble status. Total dumpster fires going for nearly a million? Might as well move to the ocean for that much! Anyway, I honestly don't think it's worth fighting. If you want in, the better solution is figuring out how you're going to get 200k cash in your bank account without devastating your life, and fast. Otherwise rent all your life, or see ya in Leander. Pick one.

natrius 11y ago
I can afford to buy in central Austin. We should fight for those who can't. This is a battle that can be won, and if you're interested in helping, join Friends of Austin Neighborhoods, a group of individuals and neighborhood associations who love their neighborhoods and want to share them with others. http://www.atxfriends.org/ http://www.atxfriends.org/

nostrademons 11y ago

Much of Silicon Valley is actually zoned multi-family. The big problem here is height restrictions, not single vs. multi-family.

dsmithatx 11y ago

While I mostly agree with the context of what you are saying... Austin was segregated long before we had zoning or high paying tech jobs. As for the shrinking population of black people I believe this is more due to culture than anything. Austin never has had a very large black population and as I said always been quite segregated. The culture in Austin is and has always been very white compared to cities that were much larger like Dallas and Houston. My friends that have moved away due to this have told me they just don't feel like there are enough places for them to go to on Friday/Saturday night. For us white folks there is an insane amount of things to do culture wise, especially if you are into music. Also Austin never had jobs compared to other large metros in Texas until the tech jobs came. You either worked at the State, UT or pretty much waited tables.

dsmithatx 11y ago
One other thing. The bay area interestingly has hills much like Austin. This surely has to do with high cost of housing in specific areas. The closer you get to the hills the more it cost to live. Now with the number of people moving here the center of town gets more unaffordable. If the amount of people moving here continues I don't think multi use housing can fix this fast enough.