10 ms·

Dwarf Fortress' creator on how he's 42% towards simulating existence

267 points by phodo 11y ago

brudgers 11y ago
The Software Engineering Daily [podcast] interview with Adams is a great listen. It's a great narrative about software development as art and passion. http://softwareengineeringdaily.com/2015/10/22/dwarf-fortress-with-tarn-adams/ http://softwareengineeringdaily.com/2015/10/22/dwarf-fortres...
- Ericson2314 11y ago
  Hmm interesting description there. From the OP article and things I've read previously, I'd say Dwarf Fortress is the epitome of focusing on the ends of the software rather than means of software developement.
  - versteegen 11y ago
    I'd say you're both correct. It's not the architecture/engineering details of the program that are a work of art, but what it actually does. In other words, the Adams are passionate about developing a particular piece of software, not passionate about software development.
    - Ericson2314 11y ago
      Yeah that's is what I meant. The end result is definitely art.
gilrain 11y ago
Dwarf Fortress is beautiful art. I feel confident the Tarn brothers will be remembered for centuries for this work. I don't know of any other game, software even, being so laboriously created from the heart.
- Sargos 11y ago
  It is certainly a fun experiment but it's also the poster child of wasted potential. If even a few more developers and artists could work on the game with toady still making 100% of the decisions the game would be much more flexible and much more polished and accessible. It is still a wonderful sandbox that can be experience by a select few but I hope one day the code is released to others and the game can truly blossom.
  - andrew_wc_brown 11y ago
    The project's success is due to the ecosystem they've created. Any introductions of designers/developers could spell entire doom for the project. I can appreciate not bringing in new talent as it is an unnecessary gamble.
  - jfoutz 11y ago
    That sounds appealing, but it would be something else. There are hundreds or perhaps thousands of polished fun games to play. Dwarf Fortress is different. It's raw. The wretched interface and myriad bugs are part of the whole experience. In a lot of ways, it's like punk rock. Yeah, the musicians could keep better time, and be in tune, but then it would be a different kind of music. The lunacy of one guy writing so much depth and detail has it's own magic that you can't really get anywhere else. Maybe it is indeed a waste. I think i've spent more for that game than any other, save maybe WoW because of all the expansions.
  - db48x 11y ago
    Except that then he'd be a project manager rather than a programmer.
  - VonGuard 11y ago
    No need. Plenty of 3rd party tools. Take a look at the Lazy Newbs Pack: http://lazynewbpack.com/ http://lazynewbpack.com/ It contains utilities to do just about everything you feel is lacking, save some major interface overhauls. I agree, the interface is byzantine, but at the end of the day, it's basically like emacs or vi.... Tools in the Newbs Pack include 3D fort imager, StoneSense, Dwarf task/military/nobles manager Dwarf Therapist, dozens of pixel art packs to turn your d's and c's into little dogs and chickens. There are even tools to directly modify the game: turn off aquifers, turn off invasions, remove races, turn off vampirism, limit the number of children. The only wasted potential in Dwarf Fortress is people who maybe can't get into it because it's so freakin' complex. Tarn knows the code's a mess. He's not a programmer. He's a mathematician. He writes code that works, and when it does, he moves on. Nothing in Dwarf Fortress was written to be touched by an outsider. It's a truly personal project for the Adams.
Vexs 11y ago
Dwarf fortress is one of my favorite examples of emergent behavior- the maneating carp, cat-explosions, cats getting drunk, etc. Actually, a lot of cat based bugs in general.
- zdkl 11y ago
  Survived 18months of goblin siege, the last 6 of which spent without access to water. Survived the Roc that drove the goblins away. Fortress became unplayable due to catsplosion. I love this game.
  - INTPenis 11y ago
    Eat the cats? I never saw a problem with catsplosions because I restrict them to pastures so they don't adopt dorfs.
    - zdkl 11y ago
      Why did I never think of that... Gotta run into vermin problems if you're not careful though, right?
      - praptak 11y ago
        One free roaming cat or maybe two are enough to deal with vermin.
    - LoSboccacc 11y ago
      just remember to have hens around or other vermin eaters
    - SolarNet 11y ago
      I would swear all the comments starting here are made up.
      - zdkl 11y ago
        I promise you they aren't! It really goes that far. Thanks for the laugh :)
memracom 11y ago
I think he is pulling your leg because he believes that the answer to life the universe and everything is 42.
acemarke 11y ago
The thing that really scares me is that he doesn't use version control. I hope and assume that he has SOME kind of backup approach, but the thought of trying to wrangle that many lines of code without proper VCS, in what is clearly an insanely complex codebase, is just beyond me.
- db48x 11y ago
  Version control is a must when you're working with other people. When you're the only one writing code it's not so important.
  - wingerlang 11y ago
    That's debatable. Version control have helped me a lot. It also helps me experiment with new code without risking forgetting something because I can always roll back.
    - dalke 11y ago
      I agree that the topic is debatable. A few years ago I looked for any studies on the usefulness of a version control system over, say, a versioning filesystem. (Examples of such include the VAX filesystem which auto-versioned every save, Dropbox does the same for at least 30 days, and the Mac Time Machine gives access to previous backup snapshots.) I wondered if for some projects auto-versioning on save or clock event in a VFS would be more useful than manual versioning with a VCS. For an common scenario, co-authors working on a paper might have a shared Dropbox directory. They can modify the images, Word document, etc. safely without risking forgetting something because there's the option to see older versions of the directory. Those studies have not been done. I know for myself, for the initial stages of a project, I find it more effective to iterate through multiple directories (eg, "foo", "foo2", "foo3") so I can easily compare different approaches, than to create a new repo, name the branches, and check out each one to get the same effect. I also have hourly backups, so I won't loose much in the way of code.
      - jon-wood 11y ago
kderbe 11y ago
Quote from Tarn Adams (DF's creator): I don’t even use version control. If you don’t know what that is then you’re not gonna yell at me. If you even know what version control is you’re gonna be like, ‘You don’t use version control? You don’t use source control? What is wrong with you? How can you even work?’ If you're the sole developer of a project and you have, say, hourly backups, then maybe version control is a waste of effort? I would still use it out of habit, but it seems perfectly reasonable to me that Tarn would choose not to.
- viraptor 11y ago
  I don't think it would be a waste of effort. Unless he's got an amazing mind, uncanny ability not to make mistakes, and doesn't forget anything, getting `$vc blame ...` is worth it on its own. I'd argue it's not reasonable, but it's his choice to make. But I really hope he's got automatic, offsite backups going.
  - rsync 11y ago
    Not sure if he will ever read this thread, but FWIW, free rsync.net account for life, if he wants one. Same goes for Terry A. Davis.
- stormbrew 11y ago
  For me version control isn't even really about having backups (though that is a nice side effect). Version control is about documenting and annotating the process of creation, and it is uniquely necessary in programming because of how eternally iterative programming is. Code that is not annotated with its history and its motivations suffers to an extreme degree from entropy, becoming more and more difficult to understand. VC is part of code. Not using it is, to me, like refusing to use verbs.
  - strictfp 11y ago
    To me it's a way of creating checkpoints which I can revert to when I've taken a wrong turn. It actually increases productivity for me.
Joof 11y ago
This is great. Dwarf Fortress is a huge part of the reason I became a programmer. Maybe that's why I'm a bit disappointed now that I actually am one, but that's life :p.
SixSigma 11y ago
The most epic of Dwarf Fortress epic tales Room Carnage This is the link for episode 58, but start from 1 https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/49iiom/roomcarnage_glacial_victories_and_crushing_defeats/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/49iiom/roomc...
Paul_S 11y ago
Is there any chance of him going opensource? It would be nice to be able to get a better ui which clearly he has no interest in coding himself.
- colinramsay 11y ago
  This is mentioned in the article. I think his response is totally understandable. > People are still doing this kind of stuff with the game being close > and making this amazing stuff. Why not put the code open source? > It’s basically a kind of paranoia or prudence about what might happen. > Because there’s forking that would just be way easier just to have other > projects going out there, people selling it and stuff. And people asking > for, say they’ve fixed some of the bugs, and they’re like, ‘Here, could > you incorporate this patch?’ I become a project manager, and it brings > out some of the [reasons] why I’m not in an industry job, right? I have > no experience working with other coders.
- ashitlerferad 11y ago
  Why not put the code open source? It’s basically a kind of paranoia or prudence about what might happen...
- ozim 11y ago
  Just what Tarn said that becoming manager is not fun is enough. Managing psychofoans, managing people that want some feature, managing pull requests. If you are not Linus telling bad words to people then you might end up like "Flappy bird" creator.
bjackman 11y ago
Anyone know if/when/where the recording of the talk will be uploaded?
rav 11y ago
Poor Zach Adams (Tarn's brother), not getting any mention in the article (or even this comment thread). Even though he doesn't work on programming the game, he still writes the stories that (as far as I can tell) carry the creation of DF forward. Even more weirdly, the article calls Tarn Adams just "Adams", as if that name is unambiguous when discussing Dwarf Fortress.

267 points by phodo 11y ago

The Software Engineering Daily [podcast] interview with Adams is a great listen. It's a great narrative about software development as art and passion. http://softwareengineeringdaily.com/2015/10/22/dwarf-fortress-with-tarn-adams/ http://softwareengineeringdaily.com/2015/10/22/dwarf-fortres...

Ericson2314 11y ago
Hmm interesting description there. From the OP article and things I've read previously, I'd say Dwarf Fortress is the epitome of focusing on the ends of the software rather than means of software developement.
- versteegen 11y ago
  I'd say you're both correct. It's not the architecture/engineering details of the program that are a work of art, but what it actually does. In other words, the Adams are passionate about developing a particular piece of software, not passionate about software development.
  - Ericson2314 11y ago
    Yeah that's is what I meant. The end result is definitely art.

gilrain 11y ago

Dwarf Fortress is beautiful art. I feel confident the Tarn brothers will be remembered for centuries for this work. I don't know of any other game, software even, being so laboriously created from the heart.

Sargos 11y ago
It is certainly a fun experiment but it's also the poster child of wasted potential. If even a few more developers and artists could work on the game with toady still making 100% of the decisions the game would be much more flexible and much more polished and accessible. It is still a wonderful sandbox that can be experience by a select few but I hope one day the code is released to others and the game can truly blossom.
- andrew_wc_brown 11y ago
  The project's success is due to the ecosystem they've created. Any introductions of designers/developers could spell entire doom for the project. I can appreciate not bringing in new talent as it is an unnecessary gamble.
- jfoutz 11y ago
  That sounds appealing, but it would be something else. There are hundreds or perhaps thousands of polished fun games to play. Dwarf Fortress is different. It's raw. The wretched interface and myriad bugs are part of the whole experience. In a lot of ways, it's like punk rock. Yeah, the musicians could keep better time, and be in tune, but then it would be a different kind of music. The lunacy of one guy writing so much depth and detail has it's own magic that you can't really get anywhere else. Maybe it is indeed a waste. I think i've spent more for that game than any other, save maybe WoW because of all the expansions.
- db48x 11y ago
  Except that then he'd be a project manager rather than a programmer.
- VonGuard 11y ago
  No need. Plenty of 3rd party tools. Take a look at the Lazy Newbs Pack: http://lazynewbpack.com/ http://lazynewbpack.com/ It contains utilities to do just about everything you feel is lacking, save some major interface overhauls. I agree, the interface is byzantine, but at the end of the day, it's basically like emacs or vi.... Tools in the Newbs Pack include 3D fort imager, StoneSense, Dwarf task/military/nobles manager Dwarf Therapist, dozens of pixel art packs to turn your d's and c's into little dogs and chickens. There are even tools to directly modify the game: turn off aquifers, turn off invasions, remove races, turn off vampirism, limit the number of children. The only wasted potential in Dwarf Fortress is people who maybe can't get into it because it's so freakin' complex. Tarn knows the code's a mess. He's not a programmer. He's a mathematician. He writes code that works, and when it does, he moves on. Nothing in Dwarf Fortress was written to be touched by an outsider. It's a truly personal project for the Adams.

Vexs 11y ago

Dwarf fortress is one of my favorite examples of emergent behavior- the maneating carp, cat-explosions, cats getting drunk, etc. Actually, a lot of cat based bugs in general.

zdkl 11y ago
Survived 18months of goblin siege, the last 6 of which spent without access to water. Survived the Roc that drove the goblins away. Fortress became unplayable due to catsplosion. I love this game.
- INTPenis 11y ago
  Eat the cats? I never saw a problem with catsplosions because I restrict them to pastures so they don't adopt dorfs.
  - zdkl 11y ago
    Why did I never think of that... Gotta run into vermin problems if you're not careful though, right?
    - praptak 11y ago
      One free roaming cat or maybe two are enough to deal with vermin.
  - LoSboccacc 11y ago
    just remember to have hens around or other vermin eaters
  - SolarNet 11y ago
    I would swear all the comments starting here are made up.
    - zdkl 11y ago
      I promise you they aren't! It really goes that far. Thanks for the laugh :)

memracom 11y ago

I think he is pulling your leg because he believes that the answer to life the universe and everything is 42.

acemarke 11y ago

The thing that really scares me is that he doesn't use version control. I hope and assume that he has SOME kind of backup approach, but the thought of trying to wrangle that many lines of code without proper VCS, in what is clearly an insanely complex codebase, is just beyond me.

db48x 11y ago
Version control is a must when you're working with other people. When you're the only one writing code it's not so important.
- wingerlang 11y ago
  That's debatable. Version control have helped me a lot. It also helps me experiment with new code without risking forgetting something because I can always roll back.
  - dalke 11y ago
    I agree that the topic is debatable. A few years ago I looked for any studies on the usefulness of a version control system over, say, a versioning filesystem. (Examples of such include the VAX filesystem which auto-versioned every save, Dropbox does the same for at least 30 days, and the Mac Time Machine gives access to previous backup snapshots.) I wondered if for some projects auto-versioning on save or clock event in a VFS would be more useful than manual versioning with a VCS. For an common scenario, co-authors working on a paper might have a shared Dropbox directory. They can modify the images, Word document, etc. safely without risking forgetting something because there's the option to see older versions of the directory. Those studies have not been done. I know for myself, for the initial stages of a project, I find it more effective to iterate through multiple directories (eg, "foo", "foo2", "foo3") so I can easily compare different approaches, than to create a new repo, name the branches, and check out each one to get the same effect. I also have hourly backups, so I won't loose much in the way of code.
    - jon-wood 11y ago

kderbe 11y ago

Quote from Tarn Adams (DF's creator): I don’t even use version control. If you don’t know what that is then you’re not gonna yell at me. If you even know what version control is you’re gonna be like, ‘You don’t use version control? You don’t use source control? What is wrong with you? How can you even work?’ If you're the sole developer of a project and you have, say, hourly backups, then maybe version control is a waste of effort? I would still use it out of habit, but it seems perfectly reasonable to me that Tarn would choose not to.

viraptor 11y ago
I don't think it would be a waste of effort. Unless he's got an amazing mind, uncanny ability not to make mistakes, and doesn't forget anything, getting `$vc blame ...` is worth it on its own. I'd argue it's not reasonable, but it's his choice to make. But I really hope he's got automatic, offsite backups going.
- rsync 11y ago
  Not sure if he will ever read this thread, but FWIW, free rsync.net account for life, if he wants one. Same goes for Terry A. Davis.
stormbrew 11y ago
For me version control isn't even really about having backups (though that is a nice side effect). Version control is about documenting and annotating the process of creation, and it is uniquely necessary in programming because of how eternally iterative programming is. Code that is not annotated with its history and its motivations suffers to an extreme degree from entropy, becoming more and more difficult to understand. VC is part of code. Not using it is, to me, like refusing to use verbs.
- strictfp 11y ago
  To me it's a way of creating checkpoints which I can revert to when I've taken a wrong turn. It actually increases productivity for me.

Joof 11y ago

This is great. Dwarf Fortress is a huge part of the reason I became a programmer. Maybe that's why I'm a bit disappointed now that I actually am one, but that's life :p.

SixSigma 11y ago

The most epic of Dwarf Fortress epic tales Room Carnage This is the link for episode 58, but start from 1 https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/49iiom/roomcarnage_glacial_victories_and_crushing_defeats/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/49iiom/roomc...

Paul_S 11y ago

Is there any chance of him going opensource? It would be nice to be able to get a better ui which clearly he has no interest in coding himself.

colinramsay 11y ago
This is mentioned in the article. I think his response is totally understandable. > People are still doing this kind of stuff with the game being close > and making this amazing stuff. Why not put the code open source? > It’s basically a kind of paranoia or prudence about what might happen. > Because there’s forking that would just be way easier just to have other > projects going out there, people selling it and stuff. And people asking > for, say they’ve fixed some of the bugs, and they’re like, ‘Here, could > you incorporate this patch?’ I become a project manager, and it brings > out some of the [reasons] why I’m not in an industry job, right? I have > no experience working with other coders.
ashitlerferad 11y ago
Why not put the code open source? It’s basically a kind of paranoia or prudence about what might happen...
ozim 11y ago
Just what Tarn said that becoming manager is not fun is enough. Managing psychofoans, managing people that want some feature, managing pull requests. If you are not Linus telling bad words to people then you might end up like "Flappy bird" creator.

bjackman 11y ago

Anyone know if/when/where the recording of the talk will be uploaded?

rav 11y ago

Poor Zach Adams (Tarn's brother), not getting any mention in the article (or even this comment thread). Even though he doesn't work on programming the game, he still writes the stories that (as far as I can tell) carry the creation of DF forward. Even more weirdly, the article calls Tarn Adams just "Adams", as if that name is unambiguous when discussing Dwarf Fortress.