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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

444 points by bresc 11y ago

franzpeterstein 11y ago
why show me nyt on my smartphone a login, but on desktop nothin'?
- joantune 11y ago
  because of a 'nytimes protection' that only allows you to read 10 articles/month. You're supposed to be a 'hacker' so ask yourself, how does the WWW allows one to be tracked (don't think of the more advanced methods [HSTS, WebGL and the sort] think of how the actual vintage WWW protocol allows one to do that). PS: for a quick solution, use incognito mode.
  - franzpeterstein 11y ago
    >> think of how the actual vintage WWW protocol allows one to do that. Thank you for your inspiring comment.
tychuz 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
- erbo 11y ago
  I came here to say, "How do you say 'Streisand effect' in Turkish?"
elthran 11y ago
I wonder how much more of this sort of thing has to go on before the media begins widespread use of the word "dictator" for Erdogan? Illegal criticism, seizing opposition media, violent oppression of minorities, potential election shenanigans - I can imagine next he'll appoint himself President for Life and rename the it the People's Republic of Turkey. I feel the same thing applies to Putin, but we'll never see the term used due to the immense power he and his Russia wield internationally when compared to small fry Turkey
- meric 11y ago
  Putin is quite the authoritarian, yet I don't think you can compare Erdogan to Putin. They are not even on the same level.
  - egeozcan 11y ago
    Same hunger for power, different stages of progress.
  - elthran 11y ago
    I agree they're not on the same level - but I think this is more Putin have a superior intellect and grasp of subtlety and Realpolitik than Erdogan. I'm fully expecting Putin to pull the old President/Prime Minister switcheroo again in 2024, after winning the 2018 election.
    - workusername 11y ago
      Putin subtle? Like the switcheroo? And a second one would be subtle? The guy's an outright buffoon.
      - vidarh 11y ago
        It's not that Putin is subtle. It's that Erdogan is much less so.
    - aquadrop 11y ago
      I'm not sure about that, in 2030 he'll be 75 years old, he might have different perspective at this age.
    - ousta 11y ago
      you clearly underestimate the man. erdogan is a brilliant politician probably the greatest of our generation with putin and do not worry he does not need europe. actually joining europe will be bad for turkey on so much levels that it does not make sense
- 11y ago
thirdsun 11y ago
As a german I really have to wonder what's wrong with our government if we continue to cozy up to Erdogan's turkey. I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore them so easily?
- venomsnake 11y ago
  Turkey cannot be really migration buffer. But for Germans - i think that the internalized guilt that was whipped into the German society after WWII just prevents them from thinking - EU and his people/interests first, Germany first or criticizing foreigners. We all will pay dearly for supporting "religious freedom" Erdogan against his army in the early 00s
  - newjersey 11y ago
    I can't disagree with you at all. The rise of religion in government does us no good. However, we have to face reality as it exists. There'd be someone else if not him. Turkish people are clearly religious Muslims. While it would be nice to have a secular army in control of Turkey, we know the situation wouldn't be viable long term. I for one am glad when politicians take roads sustainably in the long term rather than a band aid until the next election. As much as we all hate the growth of Islam, we can't really do much about it. If we suppress the Islamic populists for too long, we risk creating more caliphates around the world.
    - venomsnake 11y ago
      The army upheld the secular character of Turkey for nearly a century. That is long term-ish enough. And they would have deposed Erdogan again in 2004 (I think), when it was clear he had no respect for the secular values of Ataturk. But the coup failed due to a preemptive strike. It was Kemal Ataturk himself that set up the things that way.
- tim333 11y ago
  A lot of the cozying up is for military reasons I think. Turkey is part of NATO and has 612,900 active personnel against 180,676 from Germany and 205,851 from the UK and also a strategic position bordering Syria, Iraq and Iran so we're kind of forced to be a bit friendly in spite of Erdogan's failings.
tim333 11y ago
Go satire! I think Turkey briefly had the record for most journalists jailed around 2013 but has been overtaken. I'm glad the internet makes such things less effective. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/world/europe/turkey-jailing-the-most-journalists.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/world/europe/turkey-jailin...
Mithaldu 11y ago
Something i haven't seen mentioned much is that the tv station this show is on, is a public broadcasting station paid for with taxes via the german government. While it turns out there are laws in place that ensure the government cannot influence program, it is fairly easy to understand how Erdogan could take this combination of being mocked by a state tv station wrongly, and get the impression that contacting the ambassador is the right step.
- mschuster91 11y ago
  > is a public broadcasting station paid for with taxes via the german government Not exactly. Germans have to pay the Rundfunkabgabe which directly funds the TV stations, it's not a position in the government's bookkeeping.
- elcapitan 11y ago
  > While it turns out there are laws in place that ensure the government cannot influence program Well those tv stations are controlled by boards on which members of the ruling political parties are, so the influence thing is kind if ridiculous, but that's the official version, yes.
- johannes1234321 11y ago
  No, the "Rundfunkbeitrag" is no tax and Government isn't involved in collecting this. This is a bit of a juristic nitpicking but they are to some degree independent from government in financing, while the payment is mandatory. Politicians are however members of the supervisory councils (along with church representatives, worker union members and so on)
- lispm 11y ago
  I don't think Erdogan cares whether journalists are working for private companies, public stations or government media. Either they are for him or against him. If they are against him, he is going after them - regardless of who employs them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Turkey
- kuschku 11y ago
froh42 11y ago
The satire show is reacting with more satire. Extra 3 made Mr. Erdogan employee of the month. http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/extra_3/extra-3-Der-Irrsinn-der-Woche,sendung494848.html http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/extra_3/extra-3-Der-Ir... Oh and the song with english subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc
- lispm 11y ago
  More important: the video has been released with Turkish subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=349VWBGICUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=349VWBGICUQ English subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc Spread...
  - stephankoelle 11y ago
    Pretty hard to translate, most jokes are lost in translation.
darklajid 11y ago
The (funny, in my world) reaction of the show on Twitter is translated literally in the article: Mr. Erdogan brandishing a fire extinguisher at a laptop, while threatening, “Either you erase this video, or I will extinguish the Internet.” In German 'löschen' does mean to extinguish a fire (as the cartoon implies with the fire extinguisher), but more generally this is what you'd use for 'delete' in most/all cases. So while the translation is certainly correct, the double meaning of 'I will delete the internet' is lost. 1: https://twitter.com/extra3/status/714804805798068225 https://twitter.com/extra3/status/714804805798068225
- yoodenvranx 11y ago
  German here: I think extinguish works very well in this case because it translates into a genernal "auslöschen" which is not limited to flames and fire, e.g. "Die Dinosaurier wurden durch den Einschlag eines riesigen Kometens ausgelöscht". I agree that it works better in German but it translates surprisingly well into English.
seivan 11y ago
How can you be a leader of a country and not be aware of the Streisand effect or whatever it's called in Turkey related to whoever try to pull those stunts last time.
- bildung 11y ago
  Why should he care? The twittersphere are not the people voting vor him. His posturing against the satire got him some nice articles in the local press (probably with the added spin that it's all about Europe belittling Turkey), job done.
gokhan 11y ago
These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitutional statements and acts, and his feedback loop consists of garbage people who's only income source is saying whatever pleases him. As a result, the guy really lives in a bubble where everything he says almost immediately happens, but only in Turkey. This does not stop him to order doing something about that stupid foreign press, and all his advisors think is to ask the German govt to suppress free press in Germany. Expect more from him in the coming months since he's on a ride to the top of idiocy.
- mda 11y ago
  A few comments on your statement.. - Erdogan's intolerance for satire or criticism is very disturbing indeed, but the law that is used in these cases was introduced in 2005, during Ahmet Necdet Sezer's presidency (TCK 299), being an expert in constitutional law, he should have vetoed it. Erdogan knows that media eroded his predecessors power,(e.g. Turgut Ozal) and unlike them, he will do anything to not allow that for himself. - Police force had always been controlled by internal affairs ministry. There is nothing new there. - That "barely standing democracy" was actually also a semi dictatorian state as well, only controlled by military and minority bureaucrat elite. - In the end, it still takes a single election to take him and his party down, I have faith in Turkish people, they did it before to others, they will do it to him as well. I think Erdogan lost his cool after the affair with Gulen cult, has too many yes mans around and apparently does not care about streisand effect. I don't see him in power for long time.
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    That is misleading. Erdogan was prime minister at the time - it is his law. Also he will be in power for a long long time - he has a big core of pious Turks that support him. The recent elections were always about him getting a supermajority.
  - 11y ago
golemotron 11y ago
The Streisand Effect is very powerful. Erdogan might get a clue. I don't hold as much hope for people on who, counter to their stated aims, Streisand people into prominence by no-platforming them.
PythonicAlpha 11y ago
Are we already at the same point of history, as it was 1933? Western democracies are unable to protect democracy or even stand for democratic rights. Instead they are more fearful about some refugees. Who does not learn from history, is doomed to repeat it.
tempodox 11y ago
Funny how someone like Erdogan can be so eminently stupid.
- xufi 11y ago
  Oh he's said some stupid things over the years. You'd be surprised but the US knows they don't want to lose him even though he's pretty much a dictator but takes orders
erikb 11y ago
Is there anybody discussing that there may be a logic behind this decision? E.g. Erdogan pressures German publicly to gain advantange in some other discussions with Germany. Or maybe he wants to gain a stronger following among his people and they like when he starts a fight with a stronger country, and he needs that stronger following because his political opposition is quite strong. Something like that? I can't believe that he really expected Germany and/or German people to back down about such a topic.
- meo2 11y ago
  I'm not sure how closely you follow the Turkish news, but this is an everyday level of stupidity by Turkish government standards.
- iuguy 11y ago
  He really is dumb enough and believes his own hype enough to think that Germany will back down if he threatens certain things, such as ending cooperation on Syrian refugees.
- gkya 11y ago
  > Is there anybody discussing that there may be a logic behind this decision? E.g. Erdogan pressures German publicly to gain advantange in some other discussions with Germany. Or maybe he wants to gain a stronger following among his people and they like when he starts a fight with a stronger country, and he needs that stronger following because his political opposition is quite strong. Something like that? Yes, that in fact, minus the strong opposition. His power is not that big, but the conjecture allows him to keep on: The three strong opposition parties cannot form an alliance against his. See my other comments.
whatok 11y ago
https://www.rt.com/usa/337782-erdogan-security-protest-washington/ https://www.rt.com/usa/337782-erdogan-security-protest-washi... Screaming “Terrorist Erdogan” and displaying homemade signs, a group of protesters are approached by members of the Turkish president’s security detail, who then proceed to comically yell and drown out the negative chants.
armaxt 11y ago
Why is it hard to understand that islam and western values just can NOT coexist? Why is it hard to understand that "real" muslims are convinced that western values are simply weaknesses that must be quickly exploited to destroy the western civilization?
- selimthegrim 11y ago
  Those Orthodox and Catholic countries sure had a grand old time with democracy before the positivists came about, huh?
waylandsmithers 11y ago
Maybe I'm reading too deep into this, but something about how the writer put this story together makes me think it is an allegory for what could happen if Trump becomes president.
- doguozkan 11y ago
  We do call Trump "America's Erdogan".
aluhut 11y ago
Funny how this seems to be the first thing in the refugee crisis that reunites the right and left-wing bandwagons. Even if the right-wing wagon should support Erdogan but they can't since he's turkish/muslim/whatever. Böhmermann killed that freedom today with his song though ;)
ryan606 11y ago
The Streisand Effect in action. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
alexandrerond 11y ago
I'm always wondering, how does a country that venerates Atatürk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk) and was concious of the values around which he built modern Turkey, can retrace its steps back and undo all that took so much effort to get. Modern Turkey was built on openness, education, strong secularization and liberal values (in 1934 already they granted women full political rights, way before many others). Now we see a country which has drifted towards the most rancid nationalism and authoritarianism. It's a pity really. Turkey enjoys so many geographical and cultural advantages (being the door between Europe and Asia), that had it steered towards the modern democracy path by keeping Atatürk's legacy alive, it would have easily become a notable member of the EU and a major player in the stability of the region.
- selimthegrim 11y ago
  How were the Ku^H^HMountain Turks supposed to enjoy all that openness and liberal values when they were dead?
fiatmoney 11y ago
It has particularly nasty resonances when Erdogan is alternately threatening to unleash massive population flows of middle eastern migrants into Germany and the rest of the continent, and offering to help "solve" the problem for the right payoff. https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/eu-and-turkey-reach-tenuous-immigration-agreement https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/eu-and-turkey-reach-tenuou... Rather reminiscent of "Finlandization" during the Cold War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization#Self-censorship_and_excessive_Soviet_adaptation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization#Self-censorship...
aburan28 11y ago
Turkey is literally the United State's worse ally of the last quarter of a century besides Saudi Arabia. If it weren't for the geo-strategical importance and a base for US tactical nukes Turkey would be 3rd world if the US stopped it's unconditional support of Turkey's shenanigans
gorkemyurt 11y ago
Erdogan is loving this New York Times article right now.. This is exactly what he needs.. A so called non-muslim enemy to rally his supporters against her. Somehow he made his supporters believe USA Russia Iran and Israel are all supporters of PKK (Kurds) at the same time. Turks on average read 1 book every 10 years. I don't blame Erdogan, I blame the generation came before us not to educate themselves.
- egeozcan 11y ago
  I generally agree with your point. However, I have to nitpick a bit: > Turks on average read 1 book every 10 years. How did you end up with this conclusion? http://mentalfloss.com/article/55344/which-country-reads-most http://mentalfloss.com/article/55344/which-country-reads-mos... > I blame the generation came before us not to educate themselves. Do you really believe that your generation is properly educated?

444 points by bresc 11y ago

franzpeterstein 11y ago

why show me nyt on my smartphone a login, but on desktop nothin'?

joantune 11y ago
because of a 'nytimes protection' that only allows you to read 10 articles/month. You're supposed to be a 'hacker' so ask yourself, how does the WWW allows one to be tracked (don't think of the more advanced methods [HSTS, WebGL and the sort] think of how the actual vintage WWW protocol allows one to do that). PS: for a quick solution, use incognito mode.
- franzpeterstein 11y ago
  >> think of how the actual vintage WWW protocol allows one to do that. Thank you for your inspiring comment.

tychuz 11y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

erbo 11y ago
I came here to say, "How do you say 'Streisand effect' in Turkish?"

elthran 11y ago

I wonder how much more of this sort of thing has to go on before the media begins widespread use of the word "dictator" for Erdogan? Illegal criticism, seizing opposition media, violent oppression of minorities, potential election shenanigans - I can imagine next he'll appoint himself President for Life and rename the it the People's Republic of Turkey. I feel the same thing applies to Putin, but we'll never see the term used due to the immense power he and his Russia wield internationally when compared to small fry Turkey

meric 11y ago
Putin is quite the authoritarian, yet I don't think you can compare Erdogan to Putin. They are not even on the same level.
- egeozcan 11y ago
  Same hunger for power, different stages of progress.
- elthran 11y ago
  I agree they're not on the same level - but I think this is more Putin have a superior intellect and grasp of subtlety and Realpolitik than Erdogan. I'm fully expecting Putin to pull the old President/Prime Minister switcheroo again in 2024, after winning the 2018 election.
  - workusername 11y ago
    Putin subtle? Like the switcheroo? And a second one would be subtle? The guy's an outright buffoon.
    - vidarh 11y ago
      It's not that Putin is subtle. It's that Erdogan is much less so.
  - aquadrop 11y ago
    I'm not sure about that, in 2030 he'll be 75 years old, he might have different perspective at this age.
  - ousta 11y ago
    you clearly underestimate the man. erdogan is a brilliant politician probably the greatest of our generation with putin and do not worry he does not need europe. actually joining europe will be bad for turkey on so much levels that it does not make sense
11y ago

thirdsun 11y ago

As a german I really have to wonder what's wrong with our government if we continue to cozy up to Erdogan's turkey. I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore them so easily?

venomsnake 11y ago
Turkey cannot be really migration buffer. But for Germans - i think that the internalized guilt that was whipped into the German society after WWII just prevents them from thinking - EU and his people/interests first, Germany first or criticizing foreigners. We all will pay dearly for supporting "religious freedom" Erdogan against his army in the early 00s
- newjersey 11y ago
  I can't disagree with you at all. The rise of religion in government does us no good. However, we have to face reality as it exists. There'd be someone else if not him. Turkish people are clearly religious Muslims. While it would be nice to have a secular army in control of Turkey, we know the situation wouldn't be viable long term. I for one am glad when politicians take roads sustainably in the long term rather than a band aid until the next election. As much as we all hate the growth of Islam, we can't really do much about it. If we suppress the Islamic populists for too long, we risk creating more caliphates around the world.
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    The army upheld the secular character of Turkey for nearly a century. That is long term-ish enough. And they would have deposed Erdogan again in 2004 (I think), when it was clear he had no respect for the secular values of Ataturk. But the coup failed due to a preemptive strike. It was Kemal Ataturk himself that set up the things that way.
tim333 11y ago
A lot of the cozying up is for military reasons I think. Turkey is part of NATO and has 612,900 active personnel against 180,676 from Germany and 205,851 from the UK and also a strategic position bordering Syria, Iraq and Iran so we're kind of forced to be a bit friendly in spite of Erdogan's failings.

tim333 11y ago

Go satire! I think Turkey briefly had the record for most journalists jailed around 2013 but has been overtaken. I'm glad the internet makes such things less effective. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/world/europe/turkey-jailing-the-most-journalists.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/world/europe/turkey-jailin...

Mithaldu 11y ago

Something i haven't seen mentioned much is that the tv station this show is on, is a public broadcasting station paid for with taxes via the german government. While it turns out there are laws in place that ensure the government cannot influence program, it is fairly easy to understand how Erdogan could take this combination of being mocked by a state tv station wrongly, and get the impression that contacting the ambassador is the right step.

mschuster91 11y ago
> is a public broadcasting station paid for with taxes via the german government Not exactly. Germans have to pay the Rundfunkabgabe which directly funds the TV stations, it's not a position in the government's bookkeeping.
elcapitan 11y ago
> While it turns out there are laws in place that ensure the government cannot influence program Well those tv stations are controlled by boards on which members of the ruling political parties are, so the influence thing is kind if ridiculous, but that's the official version, yes.
johannes1234321 11y ago
No, the "Rundfunkbeitrag" is no tax and Government isn't involved in collecting this. This is a bit of a juristic nitpicking but they are to some degree independent from government in financing, while the payment is mandatory. Politicians are however members of the supervisory councils (along with church representatives, worker union members and so on)
lispm 11y ago
I don't think Erdogan cares whether journalists are working for private companies, public stations or government media. Either they are for him or against him. If they are against him, he is going after them - regardless of who employs them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Turkey
kuschku 11y ago

froh42 11y ago

The satire show is reacting with more satire. Extra 3 made Mr. Erdogan employee of the month. http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/extra_3/extra-3-Der-Irrsinn-der-Woche,sendung494848.html http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/extra_3/extra-3-Der-Ir... Oh and the song with english subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc

lispm 11y ago
More important: the video has been released with Turkish subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=349VWBGICUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=349VWBGICUQ English subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc Spread...
- stephankoelle 11y ago
  Pretty hard to translate, most jokes are lost in translation.

darklajid 11y ago

The (funny, in my world) reaction of the show on Twitter is translated literally in the article: Mr. Erdogan brandishing a fire extinguisher at a laptop, while threatening, “Either you erase this video, or I will extinguish the Internet.” In German 'löschen' does mean to extinguish a fire (as the cartoon implies with the fire extinguisher), but more generally this is what you'd use for 'delete' in most/all cases. So while the translation is certainly correct, the double meaning of 'I will delete the internet' is lost. 1: https://twitter.com/extra3/status/714804805798068225 https://twitter.com/extra3/status/714804805798068225

yoodenvranx 11y ago
German here: I think extinguish works very well in this case because it translates into a genernal "auslöschen" which is not limited to flames and fire, e.g. "Die Dinosaurier wurden durch den Einschlag eines riesigen Kometens ausgelöscht". I agree that it works better in German but it translates surprisingly well into English.

seivan 11y ago

How can you be a leader of a country and not be aware of the Streisand effect or whatever it's called in Turkey related to whoever try to pull those stunts last time.

bildung 11y ago
Why should he care? The twittersphere are not the people voting vor him. His posturing against the satire got him some nice articles in the local press (probably with the added spin that it's all about Europe belittling Turkey), job done.

gokhan 11y ago

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitutional statements and acts, and his feedback loop consists of garbage people who's only income source is saying whatever pleases him. As a result, the guy really lives in a bubble where everything he says almost immediately happens, but only in Turkey. This does not stop him to order doing something about that stupid foreign press, and all his advisors think is to ask the German govt to suppress free press in Germany. Expect more from him in the coming months since he's on a ride to the top of idiocy.

mda 11y ago
A few comments on your statement.. - Erdogan's intolerance for satire or criticism is very disturbing indeed, but the law that is used in these cases was introduced in 2005, during Ahmet Necdet Sezer's presidency (TCK 299), being an expert in constitutional law, he should have vetoed it. Erdogan knows that media eroded his predecessors power,(e.g. Turgut Ozal) and unlike them, he will do anything to not allow that for himself. - Police force had always been controlled by internal affairs ministry. There is nothing new there. - That "barely standing democracy" was actually also a semi dictatorian state as well, only controlled by military and minority bureaucrat elite. - In the end, it still takes a single election to take him and his party down, I have faith in Turkish people, they did it before to others, they will do it to him as well. I think Erdogan lost his cool after the affair with Gulen cult, has too many yes mans around and apparently does not care about streisand effect. I don't see him in power for long time.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  That is misleading. Erdogan was prime minister at the time - it is his law. Also he will be in power for a long long time - he has a big core of pious Turks that support him. The recent elections were always about him getting a supermajority.
- 11y ago

golemotron 11y ago

The Streisand Effect is very powerful. Erdogan might get a clue. I don't hold as much hope for people on who, counter to their stated aims, Streisand people into prominence by no-platforming them.

PythonicAlpha 11y ago

Are we already at the same point of history, as it was 1933? Western democracies are unable to protect democracy or even stand for democratic rights. Instead they are more fearful about some refugees. Who does not learn from history, is doomed to repeat it.

tempodox 11y ago

Funny how someone like Erdogan can be so eminently stupid.

xufi 11y ago
Oh he's said some stupid things over the years. You'd be surprised but the US knows they don't want to lose him even though he's pretty much a dictator but takes orders

erikb 11y ago

Is there anybody discussing that there may be a logic behind this decision? E.g. Erdogan pressures German publicly to gain advantange in some other discussions with Germany. Or maybe he wants to gain a stronger following among his people and they like when he starts a fight with a stronger country, and he needs that stronger following because his political opposition is quite strong. Something like that? I can't believe that he really expected Germany and/or German people to back down about such a topic.

meo2 11y ago
I'm not sure how closely you follow the Turkish news, but this is an everyday level of stupidity by Turkish government standards.
iuguy 11y ago
He really is dumb enough and believes his own hype enough to think that Germany will back down if he threatens certain things, such as ending cooperation on Syrian refugees.
gkya 11y ago
> Is there anybody discussing that there may be a logic behind this decision? E.g. Erdogan pressures German publicly to gain advantange in some other discussions with Germany. Or maybe he wants to gain a stronger following among his people and they like when he starts a fight with a stronger country, and he needs that stronger following because his political opposition is quite strong. Something like that? Yes, that in fact, minus the strong opposition. His power is not that big, but the conjecture allows him to keep on: The three strong opposition parties cannot form an alliance against his. See my other comments.

whatok 11y ago

https://www.rt.com/usa/337782-erdogan-security-protest-washington/ https://www.rt.com/usa/337782-erdogan-security-protest-washi... Screaming “Terrorist Erdogan” and displaying homemade signs, a group of protesters are approached by members of the Turkish president’s security detail, who then proceed to comically yell and drown out the negative chants.

armaxt 11y ago

Why is it hard to understand that islam and western values just can NOT coexist? Why is it hard to understand that "real" muslims are convinced that western values are simply weaknesses that must be quickly exploited to destroy the western civilization?

selimthegrim 11y ago
Those Orthodox and Catholic countries sure had a grand old time with democracy before the positivists came about, huh?

waylandsmithers 11y ago

Maybe I'm reading too deep into this, but something about how the writer put this story together makes me think it is an allegory for what could happen if Trump becomes president.

doguozkan 11y ago
We do call Trump "America's Erdogan".

aluhut 11y ago

Funny how this seems to be the first thing in the refugee crisis that reunites the right and left-wing bandwagons. Even if the right-wing wagon should support Erdogan but they can't since he's turkish/muslim/whatever. Böhmermann killed that freedom today with his song though ;)

ryan606 11y ago

The Streisand Effect in action. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

alexandrerond 11y ago

I'm always wondering, how does a country that venerates Atatürk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk) and was concious of the values around which he built modern Turkey, can retrace its steps back and undo all that took so much effort to get. Modern Turkey was built on openness, education, strong secularization and liberal values (in 1934 already they granted women full political rights, way before many others). Now we see a country which has drifted towards the most rancid nationalism and authoritarianism. It's a pity really. Turkey enjoys so many geographical and cultural advantages (being the door between Europe and Asia), that had it steered towards the modern democracy path by keeping Atatürk's legacy alive, it would have easily become a notable member of the EU and a major player in the stability of the region.

selimthegrim 11y ago
How were the Ku^H^HMountain Turks supposed to enjoy all that openness and liberal values when they were dead?

fiatmoney 11y ago

It has particularly nasty resonances when Erdogan is alternately threatening to unleash massive population flows of middle eastern migrants into Germany and the rest of the continent, and offering to help "solve" the problem for the right payoff. https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/eu-and-turkey-reach-tenuous-immigration-agreement https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/eu-and-turkey-reach-tenuou... Rather reminiscent of "Finlandization" during the Cold War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization#Self-censorship_and_excessive_Soviet_adaptation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization#Self-censorship...

aburan28 11y ago

Turkey is literally the United State's worse ally of the last quarter of a century besides Saudi Arabia. If it weren't for the geo-strategical importance and a base for US tactical nukes Turkey would be 3rd world if the US stopped it's unconditional support of Turkey's shenanigans

gorkemyurt 11y ago

Erdogan is loving this New York Times article right now.. This is exactly what he needs.. A so called non-muslim enemy to rally his supporters against her. Somehow he made his supporters believe USA Russia Iran and Israel are all supporters of PKK (Kurds) at the same time. Turks on average read 1 book every 10 years. I don't blame Erdogan, I blame the generation came before us not to educate themselves.

egeozcan 11y ago
I generally agree with your point. However, I have to nitpick a bit: > Turks on average read 1 book every 10 years. How did you end up with this conclusion? http://mentalfloss.com/article/55344/which-country-reads-most http://mentalfloss.com/article/55344/which-country-reads-mos... > I blame the generation came before us not to educate themselves. Do you really believe that your generation is properly educated?