6 ms·

>There is not one single legitimate reason for tipping an employee of a business that is not counterproductive to society as a whole Not necessarily in favor o

>There is not one single legitimate reason for tipping an employee of a business that is not counterproductive to society as a whole Not necessarily in favor of tipping myself, but I take issue with that statement. The reason that springs to mind immediately is that tipping is a mechanism by which good employees (polite ones, or ones who go above and beyond to provide excellent service) are paid more relative to worse ones. The mechanism is imperfect which is why I don't take this argument as proof of the necessity of tipping, but it's a solid argument. To put it in academic terms, tipping is a technology that can help an employer solve the principal-agent problem.

maxxxxx 11y ago
Then we should tip DMV employees, cops, firefighters and plumbers too? Also don't forget the cook in the restaurant and border immigration officers at the airport and airline pilots. I am only half facetious. Why only waiters?
- Alex3917 11y ago
  > Why only waiters? To a large extent it's society's way of allowing "the right kind" of drug addicts or whatever to have a way of earning a living wage.
- e12e 11y ago
  I know many restaurants that share the tip with the kitchen staff (some including dish washers).
  - cballard 11y ago
    This is illegal, in New York at least. The employer cannot take the worker's tips.
    - christianmann 11y ago
      Not with the employer or manager, but with e.g. the busboy, dishie, line cook, cashier, etc. is allowed[0]. [0]: http://www.wigdorlaw.com/2014/04/07/unlawful-tip-pooling-under-the-flsa-and-nyll/ http://www.wigdorlaw.com/2014/04/07/unlawful-tip-pooling-und...
    - e12e 11y ago
      I'm sorry if I worded that poorly, I meant that the workers shared their tips, not that the restaurant/owner/employer made that decision. Although in practice, the employer would probably act as arbiter for pooling tips. (Those restaurants I'm aware of are in Norway, so circumstances are quite different: while there is no minimum wage, the de-facto minimum wage usually hovers around what the unions negotiate -- and end up being quite substantial as compared to eg: the US).
- masterzora 11y ago
  You're the first one to say "only waiters"; savanaly certainly didn't. Their statement was clearly in the abstract and not an endorsement of the current tipping status quo.
  - maxxxxx 11y ago
    I know. I just brought his point to a logical conclusion. We should tip everybody that provides a good service. Including 10% for the surgeon that just did your knee replacement for $15786 :-)
    - masterzora 11y ago
      To an extent, at least, it's not so ridiculous as your "logical conclusion", at least not based on current US tipping etiquette. For one, 10% on $15786 is a little silly, sure. But current etiquette already recommends flat rates for certain types of services so this could logically be extended to certain other cases. And secondly, even brought to the logical conclusion, extending tipping would only make sense where it could reinforce proper incentives and would be actively bad where it reinforces perverse incentives. A legal avenue for bribing cops is certainly problematic in a way that bribing waiters for better service isn't, for example. That's not to say I'm arguing in favour of tipping but I don't think it's as clearly unreasonably as your example would suggest.
      - maxxxxx 11y ago
        In what way is a waiter's service different from a supermarket cashier's service or your dentist's service? All I am saying it's totally arbitrary that among many service professions only for waiters tipping is an essential part of their income. Sure you can tip your plumber but even without tip he will earn good money.
        masterzora 11y ago
        Where did I--or anyone--say it was different? Again, we're talking abstract, not current status quo. That said, there are key differences between a dentist or plumber and a waiter or cashier. The obvious one is a private-practice dentist or self-employed plumber where they're setting their own fee and getting directly paid. In such cases there's no problem for tipping to solve. The other big one regardless of public or private is that there's a major power imbalance where the dentist or plumber is effectively acting as the agent of the patient or customer. Check-ups, routine cleanings, and such aren't an issue but when it comes to things that need fixing it's the dentist or plumber telling the customer "this is the service you require" and selling them that service. This is a principal-agent problem itself and tipping only exacerbates the issue rather than solving it. Like I said previously, the logic of where tipping could or could not make sense is based on what sort of incentives it reinforces, if any. And, also like I said previously, I am not arguing in favour of tipping, either, and I'm especially not arguing in favour of tipping making up an essential part of one's income.
danieltillett 11y ago
The reason that springs to mind immediately is that tipping is a mechanism by which good employees (polite ones, or ones who go above and beyond to provide excellent service) are paid more relative to worse ones. If only that were true. It is not quality of service that drives tipping size, but to put it crudely, hotness. Even if your statement were true it is for the business to resolve, not the customer. If the level of service provided by the employee does not match the level expected by management then management needs step in and solve. All tipping does is screw up the normal relationship between the employer and the employee.
tacostakohashi 11y ago
This doesn't make any sense. Firstly, it's common practice (the norm) for tips to be pooled and split among all staff, so it doesn't, in fact, result in good employees being paid more than worse ones. Secondly, solving the principal-agent problem is the employer's problem, and they could do that by collecting feedback, paying bonuses, firing people, etc. Punting the whole thing to clients just means that it becomes a lottery based on the client's mood, wealth, expectations, instead of something objective.
- Laaw 11y ago
  Not to mention how racist/sexist/ageist/etc tipping is. It's incredibly naive to think the people who get tipped the most are the best employees, even if the pool ultimately levels out the playing field. What kind of a fucking awful system do we have where hot white girls are better coworkers simply because they're hot white girls, and not because they do a good job?
  - sridca 11y ago
    > What kind of a fucking awful system do we have where hot white girls are better coworkers simply because they're hot white girls, and not because they do a good job? Uh? Is that just your opinion or are there studies to back it?
    - Laaw 11y ago
      * https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/i-dare-you-to-read-this-and-still-feel-ok-about-tipping-in-the-united-states/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/i-dar... * https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/21/whats-behind-racial-differences-in-restaurant-tipping/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/21/... * http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/07/abolish_tipping_it_s_bad_for_servers_customers_and_restaurants.html http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/07/abol... * http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/restaurants/a23132/why-tipping-should-be-illegal-15603180/ http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/restaurants/a23132/why-tip... * http://www.wagehourlitigation.com/files/2015/10/cornell.pdf http://www.wagehourlitigation.com/files/2015/10/cornell.pdf * https://news.ncsu.edu/2012/04/wms-rusche-restaurants/ https://news.ncsu.edu/2012/04/wms-rusche-restaurants/ * http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2016/02/19/45436/ http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2016/02/19/45436/ * http://business.time.com/2013/11/18/worst-restaurant-customers-ever-use-religion-racism-as-excuses-for-not-tipping-waiters/ http://business.time.com/2013/11/18/worst-restaurant-custome... * http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1329241 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1329241 * http://www.tippingresearch.com/uploads/JFSBR_race_revision_article.pdf http://www.tippingresearch.com/uploads/JFSBR_race_revision_a... This is not (just) my opinion.
aggie 11y ago
If tipping was merely a bonus, it might be useful as a mechanism for rewarding extraordinary service. But tips are expected unless there is really terrible service. This is because it has been accepted that in some professions, workers rely on tips for their income to be reasonable for their work.
- themartorana 11y ago
  Isn't this how it works in most of Europe? I don't know - I've been there a few times, and for exceptional service have left a Euro or two on advice of a local, but that's it. A way to acknowledge appreciation, not pay for 20% of the actual cost of my meal in a separate transaction.

maxxxxx 11y ago

Then we should tip DMV employees, cops, firefighters and plumbers too? Also don't forget the cook in the restaurant and border immigration officers at the airport and airline pilots. I am only half facetious. Why only waiters?

Alex3917 11y ago
> Why only waiters? To a large extent it's society's way of allowing "the right kind" of drug addicts or whatever to have a way of earning a living wage.
e12e 11y ago
I know many restaurants that share the tip with the kitchen staff (some including dish washers).
- cballard 11y ago
  This is illegal, in New York at least. The employer cannot take the worker's tips.
  - christianmann 11y ago
    Not with the employer or manager, but with e.g. the busboy, dishie, line cook, cashier, etc. is allowed[0]. [0]: http://www.wigdorlaw.com/2014/04/07/unlawful-tip-pooling-under-the-flsa-and-nyll/ http://www.wigdorlaw.com/2014/04/07/unlawful-tip-pooling-und...
  - e12e 11y ago
    I'm sorry if I worded that poorly, I meant that the workers shared their tips, not that the restaurant/owner/employer made that decision. Although in practice, the employer would probably act as arbiter for pooling tips. (Those restaurants I'm aware of are in Norway, so circumstances are quite different: while there is no minimum wage, the de-facto minimum wage usually hovers around what the unions negotiate -- and end up being quite substantial as compared to eg: the US).
masterzora 11y ago
You're the first one to say "only waiters"; savanaly certainly didn't. Their statement was clearly in the abstract and not an endorsement of the current tipping status quo.
- maxxxxx 11y ago
  I know. I just brought his point to a logical conclusion. We should tip everybody that provides a good service. Including 10% for the surgeon that just did your knee replacement for $15786 :-)
  - masterzora 11y ago
    To an extent, at least, it's not so ridiculous as your "logical conclusion", at least not based on current US tipping etiquette. For one, 10% on $15786 is a little silly, sure. But current etiquette already recommends flat rates for certain types of services so this could logically be extended to certain other cases. And secondly, even brought to the logical conclusion, extending tipping would only make sense where it could reinforce proper incentives and would be actively bad where it reinforces perverse incentives. A legal avenue for bribing cops is certainly problematic in a way that bribing waiters for better service isn't, for example. That's not to say I'm arguing in favour of tipping but I don't think it's as clearly unreasonably as your example would suggest.
    - maxxxxx 11y ago
      In what way is a waiter's service different from a supermarket cashier's service or your dentist's service? All I am saying it's totally arbitrary that among many service professions only for waiters tipping is an essential part of their income. Sure you can tip your plumber but even without tip he will earn good money.
      - masterzora 11y ago
        Where did I--or anyone--say it was different? Again, we're talking abstract, not current status quo. That said, there are key differences between a dentist or plumber and a waiter or cashier. The obvious one is a private-practice dentist or self-employed plumber where they're setting their own fee and getting directly paid. In such cases there's no problem for tipping to solve. The other big one regardless of public or private is that there's a major power imbalance where the dentist or plumber is effectively acting as the agent of the patient or customer. Check-ups, routine cleanings, and such aren't an issue but when it comes to things that need fixing it's the dentist or plumber telling the customer "this is the service you require" and selling them that service. This is a principal-agent problem itself and tipping only exacerbates the issue rather than solving it. Like I said previously, the logic of where tipping could or could not make sense is based on what sort of incentives it reinforces, if any. And, also like I said previously, I am not arguing in favour of tipping, either, and I'm especially not arguing in favour of tipping making up an essential part of one's income.

danieltillett 11y ago

The reason that springs to mind immediately is that tipping is a mechanism by which good employees (polite ones, or ones who go above and beyond to provide excellent service) are paid more relative to worse ones. If only that were true. It is not quality of service that drives tipping size, but to put it crudely, hotness. Even if your statement were true it is for the business to resolve, not the customer. If the level of service provided by the employee does not match the level expected by management then management needs step in and solve. All tipping does is screw up the normal relationship between the employer and the employee.

tacostakohashi 11y ago

This doesn't make any sense. Firstly, it's common practice (the norm) for tips to be pooled and split among all staff, so it doesn't, in fact, result in good employees being paid more than worse ones. Secondly, solving the principal-agent problem is the employer's problem, and they could do that by collecting feedback, paying bonuses, firing people, etc. Punting the whole thing to clients just means that it becomes a lottery based on the client's mood, wealth, expectations, instead of something objective.

Laaw 11y ago
Not to mention how racist/sexist/ageist/etc tipping is. It's incredibly naive to think the people who get tipped the most are the best employees, even if the pool ultimately levels out the playing field. What kind of a fucking awful system do we have where hot white girls are better coworkers simply because they're hot white girls, and not because they do a good job?
- sridca 11y ago
  > What kind of a fucking awful system do we have where hot white girls are better coworkers simply because they're hot white girls, and not because they do a good job? Uh? Is that just your opinion or are there studies to back it?
  - Laaw 11y ago
    * https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/i-dare-you-to-read-this-and-still-feel-ok-about-tipping-in-the-united-states/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/i-dar... * https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/21/whats-behind-racial-differences-in-restaurant-tipping/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/21/... * http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/07/abolish_tipping_it_s_bad_for_servers_customers_and_restaurants.html http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/07/abol... * http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/restaurants/a23132/why-tipping-should-be-illegal-15603180/ http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/restaurants/a23132/why-tip... * http://www.wagehourlitigation.com/files/2015/10/cornell.pdf http://www.wagehourlitigation.com/files/2015/10/cornell.pdf * https://news.ncsu.edu/2012/04/wms-rusche-restaurants/ https://news.ncsu.edu/2012/04/wms-rusche-restaurants/ * http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2016/02/19/45436/ http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2016/02/19/45436/ * http://business.time.com/2013/11/18/worst-restaurant-customers-ever-use-religion-racism-as-excuses-for-not-tipping-waiters/ http://business.time.com/2013/11/18/worst-restaurant-custome... * http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1329241 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1329241 * http://www.tippingresearch.com/uploads/JFSBR_race_revision_article.pdf http://www.tippingresearch.com/uploads/JFSBR_race_revision_a... This is not (just) my opinion.

aggie 11y ago

If tipping was merely a bonus, it might be useful as a mechanism for rewarding extraordinary service. But tips are expected unless there is really terrible service. This is because it has been accepted that in some professions, workers rely on tips for their income to be reasonable for their work.

themartorana 11y ago
Isn't this how it works in most of Europe? I don't know - I've been there a few times, and for exceptional service have left a Euro or two on advice of a local, but that's it. A way to acknowledge appreciation, not pay for 20% of the actual cost of my meal in a separate transaction.