7 ms·

RIM switching to open source WebKit

57 points by pmjordan 17y ago

pibefision 17y ago
When? They are very slow deploying new software. They are talking about a Twitter client since last year and there is not a public beta yet
epall 17y ago
Is it bad that the web (especially the mobile web) is shifting toward a monoculture around WebKit?
- crux 17y ago
  Given that Webkit is an open-source project with contributors from many different companies and areas of the industry, I don't see how monopoly could divert too far in the direction of non-standardness. Really, the concept of 'monoculture' doesn't really apply to browser renderers, because a rendering engine isn't a cultural artifact. It's a medium. It's designed to be totally neutral. The only reason that we're discussing the competing browser engines right now, and discussing them in terms of culture and creativity, is an artifact of their history, not their nature.
  - fragmede 17y ago
    Well, yes and no. It isn't that big a deal with Webkit because it does a good job at being standards compliant. But what if the mobile phone market was converging on the IE6 rendering engine?
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
  - lambda 17y ago
    Sure, the concept of monoculture applies. Part of the reason for avoiding a monoculture is that you've put all your eggs in one basket; everyone's risks are linked together. While this can be good when things are going well, it can be disastrous when something goes wrong. For instance, if there's a worm that takes advantage of a bug in WebKit, it may be able to hit every single WebKit based browser out there. Now, this is somewhat mitigated by the fact the WebKit is only one component in a browser. Each of the platform ports has a lot of platform specific code. The networking layer is different, the UI components are different, and so on. It's also somewhat mitigated by the different operating systems, architectures, compilers, and so on that make it hard to write an exploit against something like a buffer overflow, because of the heterogenous environment. On the other hand, software that is just a small component of a browser, like libpng or libjpeg, can be all that you need to exploit a system. Look at how many vulnerabilities are reported in libpng and libjpeg on a fairly regular basis. And WebKit comes with a JavaScript interpreter that runs untrusted code by default, which can make exploits much easier as they can run code on the client side to adapt to the local environment. A monoculture can also stifle innovation, and harm the market for new browsers. If everyone just codes to the capabilities of WebKit, it's harder for Mozilla to introduce cool new features that inspire WebKit to copy them, because a lot fewer people will pay attention. This is less likely to be a problem, however, because of the much greater market share of Gecko on the desktop. Now, the benefits of sharing all that code and work may outweigh the risks of the monoculture. It would be nice to see a few more companies going with a Gecko based engine, however, in order to reduce the monoculture a bit. Fennec is coming along, but doesn't run on much hardware yet.
- mcav 17y ago
  Competition helps drive innovation, but right now WebKit has so much forward momentum, it's hard to say that standardizing on WebKit is a bad thing. WebKit is LGPL-licensed, so if it were ever to stagnate, there's nothing preventing anyone (even companies) from forking it for their own desires. I'd much rather see a WebKit-driven force than a proprietary one. edit: LGPL-licensed, not just BSD. Thanks buymorechuck.
  - buymorechuck 17y ago
    WebKit is LGPL.
    - icefox 17y ago
      Well as a whole you have to think of it as LGPL as that is the most restrictive license among the code. But there is a bunch of code that is under the BSD.
- pkaler 17y ago
  Is it bad that we all use the same implementation of printf and strlen? It's important that something as fundamental as HTML rendering becomes plumbing that we don't even notice.
- wmf 17y ago
  Somebody compared the features of all these mobile browsers and discovered that they're all based on something called "WebKit", but they all end up being quite different. e.g. One browser uses a fork of a two-year old version of WebKit while another uses a fork of a one-year old version. http://www.quirksmode.org/webkit.html http://www.quirksmode.org/webkit.html
- philwelch 17y ago
  Open source seems to do this, doesn't it? Once upon a time there were dozens of Unices, and now there's just Linux. (Which isn't even a proper Unix.) There's Mac OS X, but that seems to serve a different market than the traditional Unix (now Linux) market.
mdasen 17y ago
It really looks like WebKit is going to become the standard for mobile browsing. Google, Palm, Apple, and Nokia are all in the WebKit camp and now RIM. Who does that leave now that RIM is going WebKit? Microsoft? Opera clearly has its own engine, but they don't control a platform.
- ZeroGravitas 17y ago
  Nokia also currently have a Gecko-based browser on their Maemo platform which seems to aimed at the high-end and future development of the market. And Mozilla have launched Firefox for that same platform too, with work underway on Android.
  - icefox 17y ago
    Nokia also owns trolltech which has QtWebKit, so they can have both a webkit and gecko based browser.
  - Zev 17y ago
    Nokia uses WebKit in their S60 platform. WebKit's trac even has a branch for their old fork (which, afaik, has been merged into mainline by now).
- lanstein 17y ago
  I don't know how Opera is on other mobile platforms, but on Android the UI is absolutely rotten.
  - mattmcknight 17y ago
    It crashed my BB, the only app to do so. Uninstalled.
  - nradov 17y ago
    Opera Mini (JME) works great on my Motorola stupid phone.
    - 17y ago
wheels 17y ago
This has been coming down the pipe since RIM acquired Torch Mobile in August: http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/24/rim-buys-torch-mobile-blackberrys-might-finally-get-a-decent-br/ http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/24/rim-buys-torch-mobile-bla...
Fountain 17y ago
Would this include the email client?
lambda 17y ago
"Full HTML5 support"? Er, no desktop browser has full HTML5 support. HTML5 is not even done yet. How can they offer "full HTML5 support"?
- DougWebb 17y ago
  As another poster said, RIM is very slow at releasing software, so by the time they release this HTML5 will probably be getting old.
Concours 17y ago
this is a great news, it should be a good news for weapps coder, build once and use on all plattform, good news.
mrshoe 17y ago
Boy I'd like to open HN some day and see the headline "IE switching to open source WebKit"
Sukotto 17y ago
I wish... really really wish, they would make an email client that renders html nicely.
ori_b 17y ago
I remember suggesting this idea way back when I was an intern with them a few years ago. While I doubt this is a result of that (I was merely a lowly intern-peon, and I doubt that the right people heard me).
drawkbox 17y ago
It will be the Twilight Zone if the mobile market gets a more capable, better browser market share breakdown than on desktop. Hrm, I wonder what Microsoft will use for their new Windows Phone? I had heard windows 7 might use OpenGL ES for graphics (http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2752 http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2752) which would be amazing... But latest news is that it won't. It would be very nice if Microsoft also went with Webkit, but that will never happen. However the mobile gaming and browser standards are starting to be established, will Microsoft become the IE6 of mobile by not supporting OpenGL ES and WebKit or HTML5 capable browser? It will be much harder to port games to Windows Mobile the way they are setting it up. And web development for mobile would be nice with mobile market supporting an html5 browser before desktop across the board.
BasicObject 17y ago
This is a win for developers everywhere.

57 points by pmjordan 17y ago

When? They are very slow deploying new software. They are talking about a Twitter client since last year and there is not a public beta yet

epall 17y ago

Is it bad that the web (especially the mobile web) is shifting toward a monoculture around WebKit?

crux 17y ago
Given that Webkit is an open-source project with contributors from many different companies and areas of the industry, I don't see how monopoly could divert too far in the direction of non-standardness. Really, the concept of 'monoculture' doesn't really apply to browser renderers, because a rendering engine isn't a cultural artifact. It's a medium. It's designed to be totally neutral. The only reason that we're discussing the competing browser engines right now, and discussing them in terms of culture and creativity, is an artifact of their history, not their nature.
- fragmede 17y ago
  Well, yes and no. It isn't that big a deal with Webkit because it does a good job at being standards compliant. But what if the mobile phone market was converging on the IE6 rendering engine?
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
- lambda 17y ago
  Sure, the concept of monoculture applies. Part of the reason for avoiding a monoculture is that you've put all your eggs in one basket; everyone's risks are linked together. While this can be good when things are going well, it can be disastrous when something goes wrong. For instance, if there's a worm that takes advantage of a bug in WebKit, it may be able to hit every single WebKit based browser out there. Now, this is somewhat mitigated by the fact the WebKit is only one component in a browser. Each of the platform ports has a lot of platform specific code. The networking layer is different, the UI components are different, and so on. It's also somewhat mitigated by the different operating systems, architectures, compilers, and so on that make it hard to write an exploit against something like a buffer overflow, because of the heterogenous environment. On the other hand, software that is just a small component of a browser, like libpng or libjpeg, can be all that you need to exploit a system. Look at how many vulnerabilities are reported in libpng and libjpeg on a fairly regular basis. And WebKit comes with a JavaScript interpreter that runs untrusted code by default, which can make exploits much easier as they can run code on the client side to adapt to the local environment. A monoculture can also stifle innovation, and harm the market for new browsers. If everyone just codes to the capabilities of WebKit, it's harder for Mozilla to introduce cool new features that inspire WebKit to copy them, because a lot fewer people will pay attention. This is less likely to be a problem, however, because of the much greater market share of Gecko on the desktop. Now, the benefits of sharing all that code and work may outweigh the risks of the monoculture. It would be nice to see a few more companies going with a Gecko based engine, however, in order to reduce the monoculture a bit. Fennec is coming along, but doesn't run on much hardware yet.
mcav 17y ago
Competition helps drive innovation, but right now WebKit has so much forward momentum, it's hard to say that standardizing on WebKit is a bad thing. WebKit is LGPL-licensed, so if it were ever to stagnate, there's nothing preventing anyone (even companies) from forking it for their own desires. I'd much rather see a WebKit-driven force than a proprietary one. edit: LGPL-licensed, not just BSD. Thanks buymorechuck.
- buymorechuck 17y ago
  WebKit is LGPL.
  - icefox 17y ago
    Well as a whole you have to think of it as LGPL as that is the most restrictive license among the code. But there is a bunch of code that is under the BSD.
pkaler 17y ago
Is it bad that we all use the same implementation of printf and strlen? It's important that something as fundamental as HTML rendering becomes plumbing that we don't even notice.
wmf 17y ago
Somebody compared the features of all these mobile browsers and discovered that they're all based on something called "WebKit", but they all end up being quite different. e.g. One browser uses a fork of a two-year old version of WebKit while another uses a fork of a one-year old version. http://www.quirksmode.org/webkit.html http://www.quirksmode.org/webkit.html
philwelch 17y ago
Open source seems to do this, doesn't it? Once upon a time there were dozens of Unices, and now there's just Linux. (Which isn't even a proper Unix.) There's Mac OS X, but that seems to serve a different market than the traditional Unix (now Linux) market.

mdasen 17y ago

It really looks like WebKit is going to become the standard for mobile browsing. Google, Palm, Apple, and Nokia are all in the WebKit camp and now RIM. Who does that leave now that RIM is going WebKit? Microsoft? Opera clearly has its own engine, but they don't control a platform.

ZeroGravitas 17y ago
Nokia also currently have a Gecko-based browser on their Maemo platform which seems to aimed at the high-end and future development of the market. And Mozilla have launched Firefox for that same platform too, with work underway on Android.
- icefox 17y ago
  Nokia also owns trolltech which has QtWebKit, so they can have both a webkit and gecko based browser.
- Zev 17y ago
  Nokia uses WebKit in their S60 platform. WebKit's trac even has a branch for their old fork (which, afaik, has been merged into mainline by now).
lanstein 17y ago
I don't know how Opera is on other mobile platforms, but on Android the UI is absolutely rotten.
- mattmcknight 17y ago
  It crashed my BB, the only app to do so. Uninstalled.
- nradov 17y ago
  Opera Mini (JME) works great on my Motorola stupid phone.
  - 17y ago

wheels 17y ago

This has been coming down the pipe since RIM acquired Torch Mobile in August: http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/24/rim-buys-torch-mobile-blackberrys-might-finally-get-a-decent-br/ http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/24/rim-buys-torch-mobile-bla...

Fountain 17y ago

Would this include the email client?

lambda 17y ago

"Full HTML5 support"? Er, no desktop browser has full HTML5 support. HTML5 is not even done yet. How can they offer "full HTML5 support"?

DougWebb 17y ago
As another poster said, RIM is very slow at releasing software, so by the time they release this HTML5 will probably be getting old.

Concours 17y ago

this is a great news, it should be a good news for weapps coder, build once and use on all plattform, good news.

mrshoe 17y ago

Boy I'd like to open HN some day and see the headline "IE switching to open source WebKit"

Sukotto 17y ago

I wish... really really wish, they would make an email client that renders html nicely.

ori_b 17y ago

I remember suggesting this idea way back when I was an intern with them a few years ago. While I doubt this is a result of that (I was merely a lowly intern-peon, and I doubt that the right people heard me).

drawkbox 17y ago

It will be the Twilight Zone if the mobile market gets a more capable, better browser market share breakdown than on desktop. Hrm, I wonder what Microsoft will use for their new Windows Phone? I had heard windows 7 might use OpenGL ES for graphics (http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2752 http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2752) which would be amazing... But latest news is that it won't. It would be very nice if Microsoft also went with Webkit, but that will never happen. However the mobile gaming and browser standards are starting to be established, will Microsoft become the IE6 of mobile by not supporting OpenGL ES and WebKit or HTML5 capable browser? It will be much harder to port games to Windows Mobile the way they are setting it up. And web development for mobile would be nice with mobile market supporting an html5 browser before desktop across the board.

BasicObject 17y ago

This is a win for developers everywhere.