13 ms·

School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

275 points by rms 17y ago

zoba 17y ago
I wonder what offense the child committed at home that got him in trouble with the school?
- sophacles 17y ago
  They won't tell us that, because of privacy concerns :P
- hga 17y ago
  Allegedly selling drugs. The "child" claims he was photographed holding "Mike and Ike candy": "Official: FBI probing Pa. school webcam spy case" (an AP story): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/20/AR2010022000679.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02...
  - hga 17y ago
    The referenced article has been changed by the AP; look here for how to get the original: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1139404 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1139404
cgranade 17y ago
It would be particularly sick if the legal case for this came down to deciding whether any adults had their privacy violated. In general, US courts have not been to fond of protecting the rights of children (which makes the children arrested for child porn of themselves trend still more poignant), and so I can easily see the case coming down to deciding if adults were harmed, effectively setting a precedent that it's OK to spy on kids.
- mml 17y ago
  you bet your ass it's ok to spy on kids; I made em, i can spy on em (sorry kiddos). the school district on the other hand, is not allowed to venture onto my lawn, much less into my house.
  - rdtsc 17y ago
    Unless the courts take the approach that the school is 'in loco parentis' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis), that is they have similar rights to when the kids are under their supervision. They can claim that since laptops are not tracked via GPS so it is hard to know where the kids are (at home or at school). So they can just brush this off as an 'oops' or demand that all laptops have tracking chips in them. Or they can always blame the sysadmin and just say "we told him to spy only when kids are at school, but he goofed off, so we'll just fire him" basically scapegoating one person. Now I am not defending them, as this is a completely outrageous violation of so many rights. I am just thinking of what lies they might use in court to justify this.
    - olefoo 17y ago
      And where was the IT leader for the school in all of this? This is where professional responsibility has to come into play. He or she has a responsibility to be aware of what's right and wrong, and installing and activating remote spycam software is so very definitely wrong; I don't even have the words.
      - rdtsc 17y ago
        It is pointless to seek professional responsibity among IT staff when the people who hired them don't have any. Anyone having responsability wouldn't have lasted there anyway.
  - ugh 17y ago
    Why would you think you should have unlimited rights to violate their privacy? Parents already don't have an unlimited right to limit their freedom of movement (e.g. locking them up in their room indefinitly) or the right to use any kind of violence against them. (At least that's the case here in Germany, but I would guess that the US are similar.) The rights of parents are already limited by the rights of their children, I don't see how you can then jump from "I made em" right to "i can spy on em". We also don't jump from "I made em" right to "i can beat em up" or "i can lock em up forever". I would agree that some spying should be allowed, but not unlimited (similar to freedom of movement). Putting a camera in the bathroom would definitly not be ok. I would also argue that the rights to privacy increase with age. Secret surveillance might be ok for infants (e.g. baby monitor) but most certainly not for seventeen year old teenagers.
JunkDNA 17y ago
Found a PDF of the filing itself: http://craphound.com/robbins17.pdf http://craphound.com/robbins17.pdf It's hard for me to imagine how anyone could think this was an OK idea.
- dantheman 17y ago
  Power hungry bureaucrats who have an end justifies the means philosophy -- who don't understand that their job is to serve and not to control.
- Silhouette 17y ago
  This reminds me of the strip search story from a few months ago. A young girl was searched by school officials. As it turned out, she was only carrying prescription drugs. While the Supreme Court found that the search had been illegal (amazingly, only by an 8-1 majority) they also ruled that the officials concerned could not be held personally liable. This was because it supposedly wasn't obvious to the officials at the time whether what they were doing was illegal or improper. Now, while I can understand that as a matter of law any court can only rule on the specific details of a particular case in context and they have to worry about a suitable burden of proof, I have to wonder how anyone could think it was OK to strip search a 13-year-old on some vague suspicion about carrying drugs. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/25/national/main5112597.shtml http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/25/national/main51125...
  - sophacles 17y ago
    More disturbing about that is this: I face serious consequences for all sorts of things, many of which I don't know are illegal. Some of those things I don't know the legalities of are related to my profession. Yet, while being tried, if I put up a "I didn't know it was illegal" defense, I would be laughed at, found guilty and fined/jailed/etc. Why do the school officials get out of liability for not knowing that their actions were illegal?
    - Silhouette 17y ago
      IIRC, the point was that it wasn't entirely that the officials' actions were illegal. There were some earlier rulings and issues of being in loco parentis that clouded the issue sufficiently that the Supreme Court's hands were effectively tied. Of course, now that the Supreme Court has given an explicit ruling in this case, it would be pretty difficult for anyone to pull that defence in future. None of this means the actions weren't grossly disproportionate, unreasonable, and abusive in the eyes of any sane, independent observer, but unfortunately that isn't what court rulings are based on.
Daniel_Newby 17y ago
If this violated child pornography laws, we will get the remarkable outcome that a school system is not allowed within 2500 feet of a school. So it's not all bad!
- tibbon 17y ago
  Should set some interesting precedent. If this isn't child pornography, spying, unlawful wiretapping, etc... then I don't know what is.
  - cgranade 17y ago
    Given the role that schools have played in destroying the lives of some children by getting authorities involved in "sexting" cases, it would be especially ironic if this spying program produced child pornography charges. After all, in many cases, intent isn't required-- people have been arrested for having malware download child porn without the user's authorization or knowledge. Given that precedent, doing something like this and accidentally gathering child porn by taking an irresponsible and already likely illegal action would seem to be enough for the courts. Not being a lawyer, I don't know if this intuition is correct, but it would be an interesting precedent, no doubt.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      > reople have been arrested for having malware download child porn without the user's authorization or knowledge Do you have a citation for that, out of interest. It's considered something of a myth within LE and I wasn't aware a case like that actually existed.
      - cgranade 17y ago
        Sadly, I don't have the citation off the top of my head. For all I know, I could've fallen for an urban legend. If I have, sorry for being gullible!
        17y ago
DavidSJ 17y ago
This takes things one giant leap further, but my cousin in high school already has his personal email and home web browsing read by a team of school monitors, thanks to the provision of a laptop by his public high school. Of course, his parents are unlikely to buy him his own laptop since he's already got one, so what does he need another one for?
- JshWright 17y ago
  What's stopping him from buying his own laptop?
  - fogus 17y ago
    Cost?
  - conorgil 17y ago
    Money. Students in high school may not have enough money to buy a laptop.
    - JshWright 17y ago
      Go mow some lawns for a couple weeks... A few hundred dollars isn't all that hard to come by.
      - cgranade 17y ago
        This is such a "let them eat cake" attitude. A few hundred dollars is a lot to come by for some people, especially at that age.
        JshWright 17y ago
        I guess that attitude comes from the fact that I've always had to buy my own cake in life. My parents provided me with food, clothing, a place to live, and other "necessities". They never bought me a laptop, a cell phone, a car, or any of the dozens of other things that teenagers seem to feel entitled to these days.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
- DavidSJ 17y ago
  From the suit: This continuing surveillance of Plaintiffs' and the Class members' home use of the laptop issued by the School District, including the indiscriminant remote activation of the webcams incorporated into each laptop, was accomplished without the knowledge or consent of the Plaintiffs or members of the Class.
- sounddust 17y ago
  No, the lawsuit clearly claims that the cameras were activated. Read comment #2 under "Nature of the action" which makes the claim. Also, while Section 23-24 is not a direct allegation, it clearly implies that Lindy Matsko was involved in capturing a photo from the embedded webcam. It states that she showed the Plaintiff a photo that came from the camera, and when asked how she obtained it, she explained that the cameras can be remotely activated. I don't see what other conclusion could be drawn from that.
bediger 17y ago
All this proves is that the several countries (USA, UK, others) have legal systems that are inconsistent, at least in the formal systems sense. Starting with "laws" as axioms, and some set of rules of deduction, you can get anywhere: Person X is a pedophile, Student Z behaves improperly on Mars, etc etc.
ErrantX 17y ago
The real question is: where is the criminal investigation? This breaks so many laws it's not funny. And the kid originally being disciplined at school for something he did at home. It's the first time for a while news like this has made me feel physically sick! Lock them up :(
- Skriticos 17y ago
  This was the first thing I was asking myself too. AFAIK only a limited group of people is allowed to do such a thing (law enforcement) and only if the have a court warrant for it. If they really pulled this off, then they are in very deep shit..
  - electromagnetic 17y ago
    Well not only could every board member potentially face criminal charges, similar for every teacher who was in on this, but the entire school (or multiple if it's owned by a group) is financially liable, likely to the tune of tens to hundreds of thousands per person. This shit could easily shut this school down, and if that's the least that happens it's a grand achievement.
- steveklabnik 17y ago
  > And the kid originally being disciplined at school for something he did at home. This is pretty standard practice. Schools have all kinds of 'code of conduct' things that can get you in trouble for things that didn't happen on school grounds.
  - Confusion 17y ago
    This is pretty standard practice. In the US. Certainly not in Europe.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    I know; but in his own home! It's psychopathic.
bgraves 17y ago
This was part of a program on PBS called Digital Nation. The show was very interesting, and there's a section where the school IT administrator demonstrates his ability to pull up a students laptop ... and working webcam. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/digitalnation/learning/schools/how-google-saved-a-school.html?play http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/digitalnation/learni... The relevant part starts at about 4:35. "They don't even realize that we are watching. I always like to mess with them and take a picture."
- soult 17y ago
  That's horrible! Also: How the hell did they finance handing out Mac laptops to all their students?
  - vaksel 17y ago
    through sale of kiddy porn?
  - bgraves 17y ago
    Well, the video and article mentions Google and Google Docs about a dozen times...I think Google provided some or all of the financing. From their website: http://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/09/X339/default.htm http://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/09/X339/default.htm Showcased by Google as highly innovative school [http://a.parsons.edu/~jenkc865/339/nyc_is339_cs.pdf http://a.parsons.edu/~jenkc865/339/nyc_is339_cs.pdf]
  - chrischen 17y ago
    I thought they were using laptops on carts. My school does that too. Did they give every student a computer to take home?
- f_sav 17y ago
  So that'd mean some schools (or is it the same one?) did such spying without even trying to conceal it. That it hadn't occurred to students to cover the camera with something is a bit troubling too (either they don't realize the possibility/risk or they don't care). I may sound paranoid, but having integrated cameras in almost every electronic device around, with no easy physical (vs. software) way of blocking it somehow, is a recipe for such situations happening one day or the other (of course that doesn't make it any more OK).
covercash 17y ago
I knew some folks who worked at a neighboring school district and while laptops never went home with the children, Remote Desktop screen caps of the sleazy superintendent engaged in affairs with teachers and potential new hires were taken. From the stories I hear, the administration in most PA public school systems is disgustingly corrupt.
- hga 17y ago
  Yeah, I can believe that, PA seems to have a lot of fantastically corrupt public officials. This is after all the state with the "cash for kids" scheme, where judges took bribes/extorted money from a private prison and in turn threw thousands of kids into it, plenty completely innocent (e.g. one in a case for publishing a web page that was derogatory towards a teacher). If it wasn't all involving Democrats, it would be worldwide headline news, instead the judges were allowed to plea bargain to quite modest tax evasion charges.
jrockway 17y ago
The only thing I don't believe is how a school district could afford to develop such sophisticated software.
- ciscoriordan 17y ago
  Taxes.
  - jrockway 17y ago
    Dunno where you're from, but I've never seen government-sponsored software that actually worked properly. (I remember reading the unemployment insurance website for Illinois once... it only works in IE. Error page: http://www.ides.state.il.us/idclaim/alert.asp http://www.ides.state.il.us/idclaim/alert.asp )
akadien 17y ago
Wait till a school administrator gets the bright idea of doing the same thing on school-issued iPhones and other mobile devices.
- johns 17y ago
  Schools are issuing iPhones?
  - akadien 17y ago
    Meh. Maybe I meant iPods. Too eager to get my flippant comment posted, I guess.
Confusion 17y ago
This really lowers ones faith in mankind. What on earth possessed these people? There must have been at least three people with knowledge of this and probably more. None of them thought it was enough of a problem to speak out against it and make a racket if necessary? I can understand one person having a crazy thought and I can imagine him convincing a second. But as soon as a third found out, the whole affair should have been seen for what it was: an invasion of privacy.
jdietrich 17y ago
Don't just sit there fuming - do something. You can contact the school board's directors at capitalcomments@lmsd.org or call (610) 645-1800 If you believe that a criminal act may have been committed, you can contact the Montgomery County District Attorney at KKasopsk@montcopa.org or call (610) 278-3090
- cgranade 17y ago
  It seems a bit irresponsible to me to encourage people not directly involved to call the authorities over this. Surely they have been made aware, if only by the media. Often times (again, not a lawyer, so I don't know how to nail this down), charges and complaints can only be filed by those directly victimized by a crime. If people followed your suggestion, then the DA's office would soon be flooded with redundant, useless and perhaps counter-productive communications.
  - jdietrich 17y ago
    The DA's office provides a form on their website to report a crime - they are actively inviting people to report illegal activity. DAs only prosecute where they believe it is in the public interest to do so. Would you call the cops if you saw a guy on the corner of your street dealing drugs? Would you do something if you heard your neighbour beating his wife? If you would, then why stay silent just because the criminals are a school board? It is our democratic duty to speak up. It is our duty as citizens to apply pressure to those in power to do the right thing. What do you think the Christian right would do if they got wind that a school was, for instance, permitting it's students to view pornography? They would be calling the DA, calling the school board, calling their senator in huge numbers and rightly so - that's how you achieve change in a democracy. It's not irresponsible to do your democratic duty.
    - rbanffy 17y ago
      > It's not irresponsible to do your democratic duty. It goes beyond democracy. It's about the rule of law and making sure law gets enforced.
holdenc 17y ago
I wonder if these laptops had a recording light by the camera like most. Wouldn't this have been an immediate tip-off to everyone? Disabling the recording light (if this happened) would have required some effort as well...
- rmorrison 17y ago
  I would hope that recording lights are hardware operated, so that they cannot be disabled via software. When the camera is on, the light is on.
  - there 17y ago
    i've long had an irrational fear that someone would compromise my computer and upload some modified firmware to the camera that would allow it to record without illuminating the light. i always keep a piece of electrical tape over the cameras on my computers now. </tinfoil_hat>
- blhack 17y ago
  Uhh...which laptops have a recording light on them? Mine certainly does not.
  - c3o 17y ago
    Macs
  - sketerpot 17y ago
    My Asus laptop has one. It's small and green, and if it weren't there, I would always be paranoid that my laptop was spying on me.
  - olefoo 17y ago
    All Macs that have cameras do. And it shows to the OS as a USB sensor. Obviously there must be ways to turn it on without lighting the light,
    - 17y ago
DanielBMarkham 17y ago
Speaking of school's control and observation of kids not on their premises, wasn't there a case a while back where a kid skipped school and later appeared on TV holding a "Bush sucks!" protest sign? My memory is fuzzy on this, but it seems like the courts upheld the right of the school to punish the kid? Anybody got a link for that case? Extrapolating from what I don't know into things I can't even speculate on (I love the internet), what if these administrators saw the same kids engaging in obscene political action, like defiling election signs or something? Or witnessed a murder? If I remember correctly, even police who are authorized to eavesdrop are bound by all kinds of rules about what they can observe and what they're forced to take action on.
- DanielBMarkham 17y ago
  Found it -- it was the kid who displayed the sign "Bong hits for Jesus" and the school administrators were supported in suppressing free speech at a school-sponsored event. I love that kid! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick Also for those interested in learning more about the control schools have over free speech, here's a great PDF http://breitlinks.com/freespeechpdf/speech.pdf http://breitlinks.com/freespeechpdf/speech.pdf I guess the point I was getting to was this: if a kid is at home on a school laptop, supposedly only doing schoolwork, is that a school-sponsored event? Would any activity constitute a school-sponsored event? Do school administrators have an obligation to report any crimes they may see when using this? If not, could they be considered accomplices? I would think not, but I'm not sure. Not only is this an awful invasion of privacy, it muddles up the public sector deep in the heart of all sorts of other individual rights. So if the courts were to rule this legal (which I find highly unlikely) it would make a mess out of all sorts of other laws. In my opinion.
  - nfnaaron 17y ago
    If a district employee came home with the student, while I was there, with my permission, and helped him or observed his work, I'd be OK with that. Again, with my permission and knowledge. If the same employee was peeking through the window ...
motters 17y ago
Technology enabled spying seems to be completely ubiquitous now. Maybe new laws can be passed, but given recent history I'm not optimistic about that. Probably the best strategy is to try to encourage more equiveillance. As an immediate workaround if you are the parent of one of the children with these laptops: i) Complain to the school. Make sure your complaint is formally registered (not just verbal on the phone). ii) Install an operating system onto the laptop yourself, to ensure that there is nothing untoward installed in the background. Preferably use some linux distro, or if you are an ardent Windows fan take a backup image after a new installation which can easily be restored later to overwrite any nasties which may have been installed later.
0wned 17y ago
Another problem fixed with duct tape!
- tlrobinson 17y ago
  There's still the microphone... But this sort of thing makes me glad Apple at least hardwires an LED which turns on when the camera is in use on all Macs.
obsaysditto 17y ago
From the Philadelphia Inquirer: "This is the first we have heard of this lawsuit being filed and the plaintiff's allegations," he said today. "However, we can categorically state that we are - and have always been - committed to protecting the privacy of our students." "Our district was one of the first to provide free laptops to all of our high school students," Young said. "This initiative has been incredibly successful and well received in our school community." "We have referred this matter to our attorneys for appropriate legal action and plan to communicate with parents and students with more information as it becomes available." http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20100218_Suit__School-issued_laptops_used_to_spy_on_kids_on_Main_Line.html http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20100218_Suit__Sc...
- DanielBMarkham 17y ago
  On one hand I really hope the original story is false/overblown, like perhaps the kid was using his webcam in a public setting online and the administrators were simply monitoring. (Which is weird, but not as weird as full-control spying) On the other hand, if it turns out that the story is overblown, I am getting really, really, really, really tired of web outlets yanking my libertarian chain. True abuse needs to be confronted. If this is baseless rumor or purposeful link-baiting, it does more to hurt privacy (by making people used to such accusations) than the administrators ever may have done.
  - wallflower 17y ago
    Best case scenario for school district: Prove via FBI or forensic information security audit team that there was no monitoring software of any kind, no remote monitoring, no logging. Prove that the assistant principal did not know what he/she was talking about when she was directly questioned by the parent. Prove there was no conspiracy to monitor students in their bedrooms. Prove (this is hard) that the assistant principal obtained the incriminating photo by illegally searching their hard drive. Provide settlement in six figures with half of proceeds going to subsidize free laptop program for inner city Philadelphia. Put assistant principal on leave, supply black electrical tape fee-free, remove any Remote Desktop capabilities in the OS. Hold press conference with state attorney general in two weeks to jointly demonstrate total innocence. Worst case: TV crews camped out on Lower Merion High School campus for weeks.
tlrobinson 17y ago
Watch out for the telescreens, comrades!
moron4hire 17y ago
Sounds like someone in school administration sat in on the highschool students' reading of 1984 and picked up a few ideas.
nym 17y ago
I see a lot of child pornography arguments being made, but what if this was a work laptop that you brought home and your boss spied on you? Would that be okay?
rms 17y ago
Update: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/19/laptop.suit/index.html?hpt=T2 http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/19/laptop.suit/index.html?h...

275 points by rms 17y ago

zoba 17y ago

I wonder what offense the child committed at home that got him in trouble with the school?

sophacles 17y ago
They won't tell us that, because of privacy concerns :P
hga 17y ago
Allegedly selling drugs. The "child" claims he was photographed holding "Mike and Ike candy": "Official: FBI probing Pa. school webcam spy case" (an AP story): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/20/AR2010022000679.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02...
- hga 17y ago
  The referenced article has been changed by the AP; look here for how to get the original: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1139404 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1139404

cgranade 17y ago

It would be particularly sick if the legal case for this came down to deciding whether any adults had their privacy violated. In general, US courts have not been to fond of protecting the rights of children (which makes the children arrested for child porn of themselves trend still more poignant), and so I can easily see the case coming down to deciding if adults were harmed, effectively setting a precedent that it's OK to spy on kids.

mml 17y ago
you bet your ass it's ok to spy on kids; I made em, i can spy on em (sorry kiddos). the school district on the other hand, is not allowed to venture onto my lawn, much less into my house.
- rdtsc 17y ago
  Unless the courts take the approach that the school is 'in loco parentis' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis), that is they have similar rights to when the kids are under their supervision. They can claim that since laptops are not tracked via GPS so it is hard to know where the kids are (at home or at school). So they can just brush this off as an 'oops' or demand that all laptops have tracking chips in them. Or they can always blame the sysadmin and just say "we told him to spy only when kids are at school, but he goofed off, so we'll just fire him" basically scapegoating one person. Now I am not defending them, as this is a completely outrageous violation of so many rights. I am just thinking of what lies they might use in court to justify this.
  - olefoo 17y ago
    And where was the IT leader for the school in all of this? This is where professional responsibility has to come into play. He or she has a responsibility to be aware of what's right and wrong, and installing and activating remote spycam software is so very definitely wrong; I don't even have the words.
    - rdtsc 17y ago
      It is pointless to seek professional responsibity among IT staff when the people who hired them don't have any. Anyone having responsability wouldn't have lasted there anyway.
- ugh 17y ago
  Why would you think you should have unlimited rights to violate their privacy? Parents already don't have an unlimited right to limit their freedom of movement (e.g. locking them up in their room indefinitly) or the right to use any kind of violence against them. (At least that's the case here in Germany, but I would guess that the US are similar.) The rights of parents are already limited by the rights of their children, I don't see how you can then jump from "I made em" right to "i can spy on em". We also don't jump from "I made em" right to "i can beat em up" or "i can lock em up forever". I would agree that some spying should be allowed, but not unlimited (similar to freedom of movement). Putting a camera in the bathroom would definitly not be ok. I would also argue that the rights to privacy increase with age. Secret surveillance might be ok for infants (e.g. baby monitor) but most certainly not for seventeen year old teenagers.

JunkDNA 17y ago

Found a PDF of the filing itself: http://craphound.com/robbins17.pdf http://craphound.com/robbins17.pdf It's hard for me to imagine how anyone could think this was an OK idea.

dantheman 17y ago
Power hungry bureaucrats who have an end justifies the means philosophy -- who don't understand that their job is to serve and not to control.
Silhouette 17y ago
This reminds me of the strip search story from a few months ago. A young girl was searched by school officials. As it turned out, she was only carrying prescription drugs. While the Supreme Court found that the search had been illegal (amazingly, only by an 8-1 majority) they also ruled that the officials concerned could not be held personally liable. This was because it supposedly wasn't obvious to the officials at the time whether what they were doing was illegal or improper. Now, while I can understand that as a matter of law any court can only rule on the specific details of a particular case in context and they have to worry about a suitable burden of proof, I have to wonder how anyone could think it was OK to strip search a 13-year-old on some vague suspicion about carrying drugs. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/25/national/main5112597.shtml http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/25/national/main51125...
- sophacles 17y ago
  More disturbing about that is this: I face serious consequences for all sorts of things, many of which I don't know are illegal. Some of those things I don't know the legalities of are related to my profession. Yet, while being tried, if I put up a "I didn't know it was illegal" defense, I would be laughed at, found guilty and fined/jailed/etc. Why do the school officials get out of liability for not knowing that their actions were illegal?
  - Silhouette 17y ago
    IIRC, the point was that it wasn't entirely that the officials' actions were illegal. There were some earlier rulings and issues of being in loco parentis that clouded the issue sufficiently that the Supreme Court's hands were effectively tied. Of course, now that the Supreme Court has given an explicit ruling in this case, it would be pretty difficult for anyone to pull that defence in future. None of this means the actions weren't grossly disproportionate, unreasonable, and abusive in the eyes of any sane, independent observer, but unfortunately that isn't what court rulings are based on.

Daniel_Newby 17y ago

If this violated child pornography laws, we will get the remarkable outcome that a school system is not allowed within 2500 feet of a school. So it's not all bad!

tibbon 17y ago
Should set some interesting precedent. If this isn't child pornography, spying, unlawful wiretapping, etc... then I don't know what is.
- cgranade 17y ago
  Given the role that schools have played in destroying the lives of some children by getting authorities involved in "sexting" cases, it would be especially ironic if this spying program produced child pornography charges. After all, in many cases, intent isn't required-- people have been arrested for having malware download child porn without the user's authorization or knowledge. Given that precedent, doing something like this and accidentally gathering child porn by taking an irresponsible and already likely illegal action would seem to be enough for the courts. Not being a lawyer, I don't know if this intuition is correct, but it would be an interesting precedent, no doubt.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    > reople have been arrested for having malware download child porn without the user's authorization or knowledge Do you have a citation for that, out of interest. It's considered something of a myth within LE and I wasn't aware a case like that actually existed.
    - cgranade 17y ago
      Sadly, I don't have the citation off the top of my head. For all I know, I could've fallen for an urban legend. If I have, sorry for being gullible!
      - 17y ago

DavidSJ 17y ago

This takes things one giant leap further, but my cousin in high school already has his personal email and home web browsing read by a team of school monitors, thanks to the provision of a laptop by his public high school. Of course, his parents are unlikely to buy him his own laptop since he's already got one, so what does he need another one for?

JshWright 17y ago
What's stopping him from buying his own laptop?
- fogus 17y ago
  Cost?
- conorgil 17y ago
  Money. Students in high school may not have enough money to buy a laptop.
  - JshWright 17y ago
    Go mow some lawns for a couple weeks... A few hundred dollars isn't all that hard to come by.
    - cgranade 17y ago
      This is such a "let them eat cake" attitude. A few hundred dollars is a lot to come by for some people, especially at that age.
      - JshWright 17y ago
        I guess that attitude comes from the fact that I've always had to buy my own cake in life. My parents provided me with food, clothing, a place to live, and other "necessities". They never bought me a laptop, a cell phone, a car, or any of the dozens of other things that teenagers seem to feel entitled to these days.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

DavidSJ 17y ago
From the suit: This continuing surveillance of Plaintiffs' and the Class members' home use of the laptop issued by the School District, including the indiscriminant remote activation of the webcams incorporated into each laptop, was accomplished without the knowledge or consent of the Plaintiffs or members of the Class.
sounddust 17y ago
No, the lawsuit clearly claims that the cameras were activated. Read comment #2 under "Nature of the action" which makes the claim. Also, while Section 23-24 is not a direct allegation, it clearly implies that Lindy Matsko was involved in capturing a photo from the embedded webcam. It states that she showed the Plaintiff a photo that came from the camera, and when asked how she obtained it, she explained that the cameras can be remotely activated. I don't see what other conclusion could be drawn from that.

bediger 17y ago

All this proves is that the several countries (USA, UK, others) have legal systems that are inconsistent, at least in the formal systems sense. Starting with "laws" as axioms, and some set of rules of deduction, you can get anywhere: Person X is a pedophile, Student Z behaves improperly on Mars, etc etc.

ErrantX 17y ago

The real question is: where is the criminal investigation? This breaks so many laws it's not funny. And the kid originally being disciplined at school for something he did at home. It's the first time for a while news like this has made me feel physically sick! Lock them up :(

Skriticos 17y ago
This was the first thing I was asking myself too. AFAIK only a limited group of people is allowed to do such a thing (law enforcement) and only if the have a court warrant for it. If they really pulled this off, then they are in very deep shit..
- electromagnetic 17y ago
  Well not only could every board member potentially face criminal charges, similar for every teacher who was in on this, but the entire school (or multiple if it's owned by a group) is financially liable, likely to the tune of tens to hundreds of thousands per person. This shit could easily shut this school down, and if that's the least that happens it's a grand achievement.
steveklabnik 17y ago
> And the kid originally being disciplined at school for something he did at home. This is pretty standard practice. Schools have all kinds of 'code of conduct' things that can get you in trouble for things that didn't happen on school grounds.
- Confusion 17y ago
  This is pretty standard practice. In the US. Certainly not in Europe.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  I know; but in his own home! It's psychopathic.

bgraves 17y ago

This was part of a program on PBS called Digital Nation. The show was very interesting, and there's a section where the school IT administrator demonstrates his ability to pull up a students laptop ... and working webcam. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/digitalnation/learning/schools/how-google-saved-a-school.html?play http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/digitalnation/learni... The relevant part starts at about 4:35. "They don't even realize that we are watching. I always like to mess with them and take a picture."

soult 17y ago
That's horrible! Also: How the hell did they finance handing out Mac laptops to all their students?
- vaksel 17y ago
  through sale of kiddy porn?
- bgraves 17y ago
  Well, the video and article mentions Google and Google Docs about a dozen times...I think Google provided some or all of the financing. From their website: http://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/09/X339/default.htm http://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/09/X339/default.htm Showcased by Google as highly innovative school [http://a.parsons.edu/~jenkc865/339/nyc_is339_cs.pdf http://a.parsons.edu/~jenkc865/339/nyc_is339_cs.pdf]
- chrischen 17y ago
  I thought they were using laptops on carts. My school does that too. Did they give every student a computer to take home?
f_sav 17y ago
So that'd mean some schools (or is it the same one?) did such spying without even trying to conceal it. That it hadn't occurred to students to cover the camera with something is a bit troubling too (either they don't realize the possibility/risk or they don't care). I may sound paranoid, but having integrated cameras in almost every electronic device around, with no easy physical (vs. software) way of blocking it somehow, is a recipe for such situations happening one day or the other (of course that doesn't make it any more OK).

covercash 17y ago

I knew some folks who worked at a neighboring school district and while laptops never went home with the children, Remote Desktop screen caps of the sleazy superintendent engaged in affairs with teachers and potential new hires were taken. From the stories I hear, the administration in most PA public school systems is disgustingly corrupt.

hga 17y ago
Yeah, I can believe that, PA seems to have a lot of fantastically corrupt public officials. This is after all the state with the "cash for kids" scheme, where judges took bribes/extorted money from a private prison and in turn threw thousands of kids into it, plenty completely innocent (e.g. one in a case for publishing a web page that was derogatory towards a teacher). If it wasn't all involving Democrats, it would be worldwide headline news, instead the judges were allowed to plea bargain to quite modest tax evasion charges.

jrockway 17y ago

The only thing I don't believe is how a school district could afford to develop such sophisticated software.

ciscoriordan 17y ago
Taxes.
- jrockway 17y ago
  Dunno where you're from, but I've never seen government-sponsored software that actually worked properly. (I remember reading the unemployment insurance website for Illinois once... it only works in IE. Error page: http://www.ides.state.il.us/idclaim/alert.asp http://www.ides.state.il.us/idclaim/alert.asp )

akadien 17y ago

Wait till a school administrator gets the bright idea of doing the same thing on school-issued iPhones and other mobile devices.

johns 17y ago
Schools are issuing iPhones?
- akadien 17y ago
  Meh. Maybe I meant iPods. Too eager to get my flippant comment posted, I guess.

Confusion 17y ago

This really lowers ones faith in mankind. What on earth possessed these people? There must have been at least three people with knowledge of this and probably more. None of them thought it was enough of a problem to speak out against it and make a racket if necessary? I can understand one person having a crazy thought and I can imagine him convincing a second. But as soon as a third found out, the whole affair should have been seen for what it was: an invasion of privacy.

jdietrich 17y ago

Don't just sit there fuming - do something. You can contact the school board's directors at capitalcomments@lmsd.org or call (610) 645-1800 If you believe that a criminal act may have been committed, you can contact the Montgomery County District Attorney at KKasopsk@montcopa.org or call (610) 278-3090

cgranade 17y ago
It seems a bit irresponsible to me to encourage people not directly involved to call the authorities over this. Surely they have been made aware, if only by the media. Often times (again, not a lawyer, so I don't know how to nail this down), charges and complaints can only be filed by those directly victimized by a crime. If people followed your suggestion, then the DA's office would soon be flooded with redundant, useless and perhaps counter-productive communications.
- jdietrich 17y ago
  The DA's office provides a form on their website to report a crime - they are actively inviting people to report illegal activity. DAs only prosecute where they believe it is in the public interest to do so. Would you call the cops if you saw a guy on the corner of your street dealing drugs? Would you do something if you heard your neighbour beating his wife? If you would, then why stay silent just because the criminals are a school board? It is our democratic duty to speak up. It is our duty as citizens to apply pressure to those in power to do the right thing. What do you think the Christian right would do if they got wind that a school was, for instance, permitting it's students to view pornography? They would be calling the DA, calling the school board, calling their senator in huge numbers and rightly so - that's how you achieve change in a democracy. It's not irresponsible to do your democratic duty.
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    > It's not irresponsible to do your democratic duty. It goes beyond democracy. It's about the rule of law and making sure law gets enforced.

holdenc 17y ago

I wonder if these laptops had a recording light by the camera like most. Wouldn't this have been an immediate tip-off to everyone? Disabling the recording light (if this happened) would have required some effort as well...

rmorrison 17y ago
I would hope that recording lights are hardware operated, so that they cannot be disabled via software. When the camera is on, the light is on.
- there 17y ago
  i've long had an irrational fear that someone would compromise my computer and upload some modified firmware to the camera that would allow it to record without illuminating the light. i always keep a piece of electrical tape over the cameras on my computers now. </tinfoil_hat>
blhack 17y ago
Uhh...which laptops have a recording light on them? Mine certainly does not.
- c3o 17y ago
  Macs
- sketerpot 17y ago
  My Asus laptop has one. It's small and green, and if it weren't there, I would always be paranoid that my laptop was spying on me.
- olefoo 17y ago
  All Macs that have cameras do. And it shows to the OS as a USB sensor. Obviously there must be ways to turn it on without lighting the light,
  - 17y ago

DanielBMarkham 17y ago

Speaking of school's control and observation of kids not on their premises, wasn't there a case a while back where a kid skipped school and later appeared on TV holding a "Bush sucks!" protest sign? My memory is fuzzy on this, but it seems like the courts upheld the right of the school to punish the kid? Anybody got a link for that case? Extrapolating from what I don't know into things I can't even speculate on (I love the internet), what if these administrators saw the same kids engaging in obscene political action, like defiling election signs or something? Or witnessed a murder? If I remember correctly, even police who are authorized to eavesdrop are bound by all kinds of rules about what they can observe and what they're forced to take action on.

DanielBMarkham 17y ago
Found it -- it was the kid who displayed the sign "Bong hits for Jesus" and the school administrators were supported in suppressing free speech at a school-sponsored event. I love that kid! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick Also for those interested in learning more about the control schools have over free speech, here's a great PDF http://breitlinks.com/freespeechpdf/speech.pdf http://breitlinks.com/freespeechpdf/speech.pdf I guess the point I was getting to was this: if a kid is at home on a school laptop, supposedly only doing schoolwork, is that a school-sponsored event? Would any activity constitute a school-sponsored event? Do school administrators have an obligation to report any crimes they may see when using this? If not, could they be considered accomplices? I would think not, but I'm not sure. Not only is this an awful invasion of privacy, it muddles up the public sector deep in the heart of all sorts of other individual rights. So if the courts were to rule this legal (which I find highly unlikely) it would make a mess out of all sorts of other laws. In my opinion.
- nfnaaron 17y ago
  If a district employee came home with the student, while I was there, with my permission, and helped him or observed his work, I'd be OK with that. Again, with my permission and knowledge. If the same employee was peeking through the window ...

motters 17y ago

Technology enabled spying seems to be completely ubiquitous now. Maybe new laws can be passed, but given recent history I'm not optimistic about that. Probably the best strategy is to try to encourage more equiveillance. As an immediate workaround if you are the parent of one of the children with these laptops: i) Complain to the school. Make sure your complaint is formally registered (not just verbal on the phone). ii) Install an operating system onto the laptop yourself, to ensure that there is nothing untoward installed in the background. Preferably use some linux distro, or if you are an ardent Windows fan take a backup image after a new installation which can easily be restored later to overwrite any nasties which may have been installed later.

0wned 17y ago

Another problem fixed with duct tape!

tlrobinson 17y ago
There's still the microphone... But this sort of thing makes me glad Apple at least hardwires an LED which turns on when the camera is in use on all Macs.

obsaysditto 17y ago

From the Philadelphia Inquirer: "This is the first we have heard of this lawsuit being filed and the plaintiff's allegations," he said today. "However, we can categorically state that we are - and have always been - committed to protecting the privacy of our students." "Our district was one of the first to provide free laptops to all of our high school students," Young said. "This initiative has been incredibly successful and well received in our school community." "We have referred this matter to our attorneys for appropriate legal action and plan to communicate with parents and students with more information as it becomes available." http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20100218_Suit__School-issued_laptops_used_to_spy_on_kids_on_Main_Line.html http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20100218_Suit__Sc...

DanielBMarkham 17y ago
On one hand I really hope the original story is false/overblown, like perhaps the kid was using his webcam in a public setting online and the administrators were simply monitoring. (Which is weird, but not as weird as full-control spying) On the other hand, if it turns out that the story is overblown, I am getting really, really, really, really tired of web outlets yanking my libertarian chain. True abuse needs to be confronted. If this is baseless rumor or purposeful link-baiting, it does more to hurt privacy (by making people used to such accusations) than the administrators ever may have done.
- wallflower 17y ago
  Best case scenario for school district: Prove via FBI or forensic information security audit team that there was no monitoring software of any kind, no remote monitoring, no logging. Prove that the assistant principal did not know what he/she was talking about when she was directly questioned by the parent. Prove there was no conspiracy to monitor students in their bedrooms. Prove (this is hard) that the assistant principal obtained the incriminating photo by illegally searching their hard drive. Provide settlement in six figures with half of proceeds going to subsidize free laptop program for inner city Philadelphia. Put assistant principal on leave, supply black electrical tape fee-free, remove any Remote Desktop capabilities in the OS. Hold press conference with state attorney general in two weeks to jointly demonstrate total innocence. Worst case: TV crews camped out on Lower Merion High School campus for weeks.

tlrobinson 17y ago

Watch out for the telescreens, comrades!

moron4hire 17y ago

Sounds like someone in school administration sat in on the highschool students' reading of 1984 and picked up a few ideas.

nym 17y ago

I see a lot of child pornography arguments being made, but what if this was a work laptop that you brought home and your boss spied on you? Would that be okay?

rms 17y ago

Update: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/19/laptop.suit/index.html?hpt=T2 http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/19/laptop.suit/index.html?h...