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Reserving your Model 3
- mattiemass 11y agoI am so nervous/excited for this reveal! I can only imagine the butterflies and sleepless nights for the actual team involved. Good luck everyone!
- RIMR 11y agoOn one hand, I really want a Tesla car. On the other hand, I live in a city and take electric busses and trains everywhere. Maybe I'll trade in my 15 year old SUV for a Tesla Model 3 when they hit used car lots.
- imglorp 11y agoConsider this guy's opinion. The used Tesla market might not look like it does for other cars. http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2016/03/is-tesla-building-throwaway-cars.html http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2016/03/is-tesla-building-throwaw...
- ethanbond 11y agoSomewhat off-topic to your point of "the used car market might not exist like that," but isn't this the direction automobiles have been going since they were invented? In fact, this trend has existed in every piece of technology. It's a tautology: as technology becomes more complex to build, it becomes more complex to rebuild. Of course, a portion of the advancement of a technology should be dedicated to reducing that growth in difficulty – the constant self-inspection being one example. Even if it seems a bit presumptive or shocking now, do we have any reason to believe that this isn't the inevitable future of hyperadvanced cars?
- ZoeZoeBee 11y agoNo that is not the direction automobiles have been going since they were invented. Cars unlike many objects are built to last longer today than they were in the previous decades. It used to be people expected 100,000 miles or so out of their vehicle and now its over 200,000 miles. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2013/03/14/cars-that-can-last-for-250000-miles/#7f1ac04e2ae7 http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2013/03/14/cars-tha... Whether by necessity or choice, U.S. motorists are holding onto their cars for longer than ever, with the age of the average vehicle on the road at a record-high 10.8 years, according to the research company R.L. Polk in Southfield Mich. By comparison, the average life expectancy of a new car in 1930 was a scant 6.75 years. Fortunately, today’s cars are more than up to the task of going the distance.
- ethanbond 11y agoBut that's not the argument the article is making. It doesn't actually argue that the Model S won't be able to have a longer lifetime than its predecessors (we don't know because there aren't any old ones). The article says that the lack of DIY maintainability implies that the lifetime will be limited, but DIY maintainability has always been going down and the cost of service has always been going up – yet the lifespan of vehicles has also always been going up. Edit: And as an aside, some of the stuff brought up here is pretty ridiculous sounding. Like the lack of diagnostics sent to the OBD-II.
- ZoeZoeBee 11y ago"Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars" I'm sorry but the article is a lot more than just DIY mechanics... >According to the US DOT, the average age of cars on the road in 2015 was 11.4 years - and this has been steadily increasing over time. So the question shouldn't be, "How easy is it to maintain a Model S in 4 years" - it should be, "Can they be reasonably maintained to survive 20 or 30 years on the road?" It is definitely more difficult to work on a new car than one from the 60s or 70s, and despite that the Average LifeSpan of a Vehicle has increased.
- ethanbond 11y agoRight, which is exactly why I'm asking why the Tesla is seen as such an exception. It's definitely a large leap, but it's a whole new architecture for a vehicle. It's more difficult and expensive to work on a new car than old ones, yet the lifespans have been increasing. It's more difficult and expensive to work on a Tesla than a non-Tesla, therefore the lifespan will decrease? This is where I'm confused.
- sokoloff 11y agoI think the newer cars are easier in some ways and harder in others. The design commonality, use of common subcomponents, on-board diagnostics (fallible, of course), fuel injection, electronic ignition, and closed-loop ECU controls make a lot of maintenance activities easier. Plug in, pull the codes, replace a part, clear the codes is a lot easier than the old days of diagnosing carburetor issues, changing/adjusting points, etc. Where it's harder is when you need something that is now locked down, but for regular maintenance activities (as opposed to modifications for more power), that is fairly rare in my experience, wrenching on my own cars for about 30 years.
- cowardlydragon 11y agoOnce there are enough Teslas, there will be aftermarket repair howtos. This is inevitable. I guess you could argue that Tesla will try to do the Apple thing and not support older versions of devices, but 50000$ cars and 500$ phones are different beasts. Generally speaking, highly integrated ICE cars are quickly approaching the complexity of Teslas anyway. On the other hand, a tesla is basically 1-2 motors and a big battery bank. No engines, crankshafts, pistons, sparkplugs, radiators, alternators, exhaust pipes and sensors, catalytic convertors, oil pans... I still have some faith that the fundamental simplification of electric drivetrains will result in longer lived vehicles.
- imglorp 11y agoI'm not sure I agree here. A car is network of serious computing, including proprietary API's, busses, and signed firmware. You might change the tires yourself but you won't be putting a third-party sensor in there. The talk of bricking your car is no joke. See also John Deere giving its farmer customers a hard time about self servicing big tractors. The only question is, does the customer have the right to tinker?
- zanny 11y agoIt isn't even a right to tinker. Do you actually own the car - which means you should have the right to do whatever you want to it - or are you borrowing it from the manufacturer? If Tesla keeps their cars as draconian DRMed as they have been, then you never actually own the Tesla in the exact same thought process that you don't own an iphone.
- carlosnunez 11y agoWow. That's crazy. I too agree that these cars should just be leased.
- sremani 11y agoWill Tesla put out the specs and pricing details before the Reservation date? It would be fair, because unlike their other two products, Model 3 has a competing product, and it would be only fair for TSLA to give more details so the consumer can compare it with Bolt EV and choose what fits them.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- dangrossman 11y ago> When production begins, we will begin deliveries in North America starting on the West Coast, moving east. If California is getting them in late 2017, it'll be years before I might be able to buy one in Pennsylvania. Bummer. Looks like it'll be a Chevrolet Bolt replacing my Leaf later this year. Same price tag, same 200+ mile range, can't be too upset.
- skykooler 11y agoIndeed; from what I heard there will be a 2-year waiting period for PA.
- ssharp 11y agoIf people further east have to wait until 2019 or 2020 to buy these, it could run into phase outs of the tax credits. $7500 off a $35000 is a pretty nice deal. Hopefully those of us out east can still take advantage of it.
- mikeash 11y agoI really doubt it'll be that long. If you're on the east coast, you're probably looking at waiting months, not years, after west coast deliveries before you get your car. It's basically just a game to bump up quarterly numbers. If you're delivering cars that only take a day or two in transit before delivery, your numbers look better than if they spend days or weeks on a truck or train making their way to the other side of the country. This game doesn't pay off as much if you're making people wait years.
- listic 11y agoHow about other countries?
- atonse 11y agoWe're considering pulling the trigger on a Leaf, but have theoretical anxiety... How's it been for you? I loved the test drive and love the idea of going electric for 95% of my use (and possibly just renting a car for longer road trips).
- selectout 11y agoIs there any chance that putting the $1,000 USD down for reservation will qualify as purchasing the EV and getting the EV Tax Credits before they are all used up? Or is the Model 3 most likely going to be out of contention for those credits as the Model S is well over 100,000 units sold already.
- tymekpavel 11y agoYou need a VIN to claim the credit.
- dangrossman 11y agoYour reservation does not qualify as purchasing an EV.
- mikeash 11y agoTo be specific, the relevant date is when the car was "placed in service." That is, when you take possession of it.
- chc 11y agoOnly sales in the US count, and the Model S is not over 100k here. Most estimates I've seen agree that the tax incentive probably won't go into phase-out mode until the latter half of 2018.
- selectout 11y agoAwesome, thanks for the clarification on US only, I was not aware of that part.
- eljimmy 11y agoI've wanted a Tesla for a while, but being someone who repairs and maintains their own car, I can't see myself ever buying one as they seem heavily opposed to allowing anyone but themselves to work on their cars.
- listic 11y agoThat seems to be the fate of most every consumer goods, isn't it?
- jonknee 11y agoYou should probably not get a new car at all, they are all going that way. With electric/hybrid cars it's probably a good idea, there's a lot of current in those batteries.
- vvanders 11y agoYup, last I checked the P90DL was around 500kW(!) at peak, that's 1,250A @ 400V. Someone accidentally steps on the brake pedal while your near a HV line(400V can jump a bit) to one of the two motors? Yikes.
- mikeash 11y agoThe Ludicrous version was enabled by fancy computer-controlled pyrotechnic fuses, because traditional melty-wire fuses have trouble past about 1200A. I think the new ones are good for up to 1500A.
- bmj 11y agoWouldn't it make more sense for non-Tesla owners to get priority in the queue? Seems like a better way to get more people driving EVs.
- keehun 11y agoI think they're trying to be a luxury brand (or even with Model 3 be that "fancy" mainstream brand). Luxury brands (like Lamborghini) often reward current owners for loyalty. For example, some limited models are only available to those that already own several other cars by them. It also may push some more Model S and X's out the door?
- bertil 11y agoThey might want to favour the second-hand market. Makes car appear cheaper.
- nodesocket 11y agoNo, you want to reward your loyal and die hard customers. They will continue to pay dividends by recommending Tesla to their friends and family and buying more products.
- cuckcuckspruce 11y agoWhich doesn't do you any good on a marketing front because the people that want your product can't get it, so it means practically no new sales for you. Most people don't buy cars on a whim - they buy them when they need them - and if your car is not available in the window where they need one they'll go somewhere else. Very few but the die-hard will buy a $900 beater to tide them over until their Model 3 reservation comes in.
- thedufer 11y agoThe Model S costs $75k. The kind of people who think that's a reasonable price for a car absolutely can and will buy on a whim. They can also tide themselves over with a BMW or the like, not a beater. Normal car-buying doesn't really apply when you're looking at a six-figure pricetag.
- mathattack 11y agoThe beauty of this (for them!) is that this seems to take away all the negotiation about pricing, terms and taking used cars in. But aren't they leaving money on the table with such a long wait list? (Granted - creating artificial shortages can work if you have a monopoly)
- jonknee 11y ago> The beauty of this (for them!) is that this seems to take away all the negotiation about pricing, terms and taking used cars in. This is because they don't have a dealer network. If you don't like their price you can't go down the block and make an offer to the next dealer. Probably necessary because dealers normally make their money on maintenance and there just isn't much to do for Tesla vehicles.
- keehun 11y ago> there just isn't much to do for Tesla vehicles I'm all for Tesla, but I don't think this is true.[0] [0]: http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance/ http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt... [1]: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100598_tesla-reliability-take-two-are-newer-owners-less-tolerant http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100598_tesla-reliabilit... [2]: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-10000-mile-update-review http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-... etc
- jonknee 11y agoSome warranty work to replace defects for new cars isn't the same as a reliable maintenance schedule for ICE vehicles.
- mikeash 11y agoWhat artificial shortages?
- mathattack 11y ago
- shizcakes 11y agoReading the fine print of the reservations, I am a little surprised to see how non-binding the $1000 reservations are. A few tidbits: It can be canceled by you (this is a good thing) or Tesla (not great...), it might be an input to your "order on the list", but the final order is only decided by Tesla, etc. If it can be canceled by anyone at any time for any reason, and doesn't necessarily bind your "place in line", what is the point of the $1000 reservation?
- revelation 11y agoWhats the point of signing a contract with Comcast? You can't sue, you are not guaranteed a service level, ... But in 95% of cases, it works out such that you have a slow but working internet connection. So even though you are not guaranteed a spot, chances are you will still get it sooner than someone who didn't reserve at all.
- dtparr 11y agoFor those like me who didn't realize you could get to the reservation agreement by clicking to see the currency amount, it's accessible here: https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/model_3_reservation_agreement.pdf https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/model_3...
- _ph_ 11y agoI think its fair and clever that the order is non-binding and the deposit fully refundable. But requiring the deposit to place an order prevents or at least reduces any "fun" ordering or ordering for resale on ebay. Anyone seriously wanting to buy a Model3 should have little problem with the deposit.
- ceejayoz 11y agoI'd imagine they're just leaving legal wiggle room for "we bumped you down a spot so we could give the next car to a VIP".
- Someone1234 11y agoOr more likely "we bumped you down a spot (or removed you entirely) because you criticized us or our CEO on twitter." Anyone ordering this has to be careful what they say online about Tesla using their real name. Tesla has historically gone after critics pretty heavily (both professionals, and random members of the public). In particular if it is delayed and you call them out, expect to be removed.
- rdl 11y agoI'll go to a Bay Area store to put in my reservation on 3/31. Not really feeling up to camping out overnight, but showing up at 0600 or so seems reasonable (since they open up at 1000). Now...which store? Burlingame is probably the most convenient for me, but driving down to the Fremont factory seems maybe more appropriate. Not sure which locations would be most amenable to "arrive hours early" -- probably not Stanford Shopping Center. There's a 24h Safeway a couple blocks from the El Camino Palo Alto location. It would be entertaining to have some kind of HN meetup in line at a Tesla store.
- Lewisham 11y agoImma guess the Monterey Tesla store is your best bet. But that's probably a long way from you, given what you've already written :)
- beamatronic 11y agoThere is also a nice one at Santana Row.
- praneshp 11y agoAnd near wolfe and el camino intersection in Sunnyvale
- xutopia 11y agoSo few details on the car itself though...
- mikeash 11y agoDetails will be discussed as part of the unveiling on the 31st.
- rdl 11y agoSeems safe to predict that unless you're waiting in line on the West Coast on 3/31, you won't be getting the full $7500 tax credit. They've sold about 50k Teslas so far (Roadster/S/X); the credit goes to 50% for 2 quarters after they hit 200k total vehicles from one manufacturer sold. I'd be expecting another 50-100k S/X delivered between now and 2017-12-31 when I predict Model 3 will start shipping. Probably every Model 3 shipped in 2018 will be to either an existing Tesla owner, or someone who does an in-person deposit on 3/31. I would be amazed if they don't do 200k units on 4/1 alone.
- gohrt 11y agoWhat's this? Do consumers have to check their purchase ordinal to know whether they get the credit? That's a horribly unfair and overcomplicated tax structure.
- rdl 11y agoThe deposit doesn't even count as purchase, so you don't particularly know. Plus the deposits aren't 100% deliveries -- people ahead of you might drop out. Seems worth sitting outside with an iPad for a few hours in a week to maximize my chances of $7500 vs. $3750 in 2 years, though.
- cowsandmilk 11y agoNo. It is by quarter when purchased, not by ordinal. If they hit 200k in first quarter of 2018, you are fine as long as you purchase during that quarter (or the next I believe). The next two quarters it goes down to 50% and down to 25% for the next two.
- mikeash 11y agoNote that the credit continues at 100% until the end of the quarter after the quarter where the 200,000 mark hits, so there's a bit more of a delay there. Not sure just what that means for the prospects of getting in before.
- rdl 11y ago
- kylec 11y agoAny idea what forms of payment they'll accept for a deposit? Will a debit or credit card work?
- pilingual 11y agoYes. Edit: they also accept PayPal, of course. ;)
- arasmussen 11y agoCredit card worked for me for the S
- breitling 11y agoAny idea on the cost yet? Is this still expected to be around the $35k range?
- mikeash 11y agoYes, they've said that it'll start at $35,000. Exactly what you get for that is still unknown, besides some sort of car with a 200 mile range. It's a pretty safe bet that things like autopilot will be an option on top of that.
- saurik 11y agoIs it the height of a normal car yet? :/ I am kind of tall (6'3.5"), and it is comical just how poorly I fit in a Tesla. I can sit more safely (which is the correct word, not "comfortably": my head bangs up against part of the ceiling in a way where even a very minor collision would cause me serious head trauma) in a Miata. I would love to get a Tesla, particularly this new cheaper one (as I can't really justify >$100k; I waste a ton of money on my current car scheme, but it is still cheaper than a Tesla), but it feels like trying to buy a trendy shirt and realizing they don't bother making it in my size as my size simply isn't as trendy as their shirt :/.
- ido 11y agoThat's odd, I am nearly as tall as you and had no problem fitting in a Tesla (the fact it didn't cross my mind probably means there was plenty of buffer space left).
- saurik 11y agoI don't know what to tell you: this is an incredibly common complaint on Tesla forums, though "your mileage may vary" as people are proportioned in all sorts of different ways. Here is a thread that is particularly verbose and well-researched (showing comparisons to another car based on technical measurement specifications). https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/will-the-model-3-be-better-built-for-taller-people.63066/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/will-the-model-3-be-... Though that person claims to have managed to have found a "comfortable" position with the seat moved entirely back: that doesn't fix the safety issues. I can also feel comfortable, but if I rock my head even slightly to the left it slams into the frame of the car, as the only reason my head fits is because some of the models have a divot in the top of the car. I have a friend with a Tesla S (who is a major major fan of the company) who adamantly didn't believe me until we finally had an opportunity to go out to his car and have me sit in the driver's seat: he shut up pretty quick ;P. (He had wanted me to drive us to our destination, so as to fall in love with the car, but instead I ended up in the passenger seat with the seat extremely reclined, feeling only slightly claustrophobic.)
- 11y ago
- MrMan 11y agoI will go with the Chevy Bolt.
- angryasian 11y agoSo does anyone know , even though the event is at - March 31st at 8:30pm PT... Are they accepting reservations that morning the day of ? Or will they accept reservations after the announcement ?
- enahs-sf 11y agoIt would be cool if you could make your reservation by buying TSLA shares.
- scblock 11y agoThe "agreement" is a joke. If you give them your money next week, you may or may not get a place in line that may or may not exist, to eventually maybe or maybe not buy a car. The date and time which you may or may not make a decision to possibly but probably not buy a car may or may not be known, and the price may or may not be what you think it is.
- NotSammyHagar 11y agoI think most agreements look as bad as this one. I bought an original, upgraded for auto drive and will probably get in line for this to replace my wife's car. Since they struggle to make enough to meet demand, they seem to make many of the same car with the same options at a time, delaying various combinations of features. They already announced that people who previously bought one would have a priority in the queue this time. I'm pretty certain I'll put my 1k in.
- Bouncingsoul1 11y agoIt's a shame they didn't call it model E. But S3X is close enough. And now i take my head out of the gully
- will_hughes 11y agoFord has the trademark on 'Model E' - they contacted Telsa when the name was floated and warned them off it. Elon Musk has joked several times that 'Ford killed off SEX'
- Fastidious 11y agoIs there, somewhere on that page, information about the price of the car we can make the reservation? Are they taking reservations without stating the car price at all?
- bandwevil 11y agoIt was stated a while ago that the pricing would be $35,000 before incentives. They probably don't want to say a specific price if incentives aren't nailed down yet.