9 ms·

In the handful of cases where the company was OK with my non-answer about salary, and I went on to get all the way to a job offer, the salary ended up being ent

by p4wnc6 11y ago

In the handful of cases where the company was OK with my non-answer about salary, and I went on to get all the way to a job offer, the salary ended up being entirely miscalibrated to a candidate of my skill and experience, and the overall interview process (which usually included some technical screens, programming tests, take-home tests, and long on-site technical interviews) was a massive waste of my time, not to mention extremely stressful. Places where I experienced this gross miscalibration: a large U.S. food retailer's digital analytics team; a small pharmaceutical research software company; a 25-year-old multinational scientific computing and supercomputing consulting firm; and an FFRDC research lab attached to a university. In one of these places they even went on at length about how much the hiring manager liked me, how I fit all the skills they were seeking, and many team members remarked that I would "mesh instantly" with the team, and so forth. I had walked away from those interviews knowing that I had done a good job and feeling very confident. Then they made a job offer than was around 75% of what I had been making before in a similar job in a similar cost of living area, and the new job's other benefits were far worse. When I told them what I was making before, they just said, "it just looks like there's a bit of a gap here that we are unable to make up, but we think you'll be very happy on this team so we hope you'll consider our offer despite that." The people interviewing me in that company had even gone on at length about how successful their business unit had been recently, signing a new important contract, and how their biggest challenge was recruiting good people and staffing up to support some projects that had important deadlines looming towards the end of 2016. I still continue to avoid sharing salary info, because I'm not convinced that sharing it would be better. But I think what you might not be accounting for is that almost every single candidate in the tech world does share salary, freely and openly, from the very first minute they are asked, without even realizing it might have any side effects. A lot of corporate recruiters are conditioned to expect this, and the minute someone fails to share salary, they flag them as "not a dope, can't hire them cheaply" and they just move on. Constraint number one, above any and all talent requirements, is that they must be cheap to hire ... for a lot of firms.

lexhaynes 11y ago
How do you respond when they ask you for your salary information? Would it be perceuved as rude to say "I decline to state"?
- p4wnc6 11y ago
  I have practiced that part and read just about everything I can find about it. Generally I say something like, "I appreciate the need to consider salary as an important part of the process, but since we have only just started talking about the position I feel it would be best to make sure that I really am the sort of technical and cultural fit you are looking for. If we can determine that I am the right fit for the role, then the salary information will fall into place at the appropriate time. But if it seems that I am not the right fit for your team, then no amount of salary discussions will be able to help us." I have a few variations on that kind of description that I use. It's entirely possible that the way I say it can come off as rude, and I think that did happen to me especially a few times when I first started doing this. But I have practiced it, asked friends for advice about how to say it better, how it sounds, etc., and researched a lot about this online. So I have some confidence that it is coming off as strong and assertive, but not rude, and it is communicated clearly in good-faith because I truly am primarily interested in whether the cultural fit is a good one. Even so, these kinds of HR-approved ways of talking only ever result in about a 95% chance of immediate rejection. Whenever I have made it past the initial question about salary, and eventually salary comes up again towards the stage when an offer is made, I have a different way of talking about it. At that stage, if they ask me again, I will usually say something like, "I have spoken with the team and had a great chance to learn about your company and how I could fit in with this role. If you have a particular salary range that you'd like to share with me, I can definitely let you know how it will match up with my expectations." Again, I have some slight variations on that, but it's more or less the same idea of changing their question asked of me into my question asked of them. They can't keep coming back and specifically asking me for a number without seeming very awkward, and if they do that it's sometimes a red flag and I would usually be happy walking away if they were to heavily press me at that point. Unfortunately, as I mentioned above, when people have been OK with all of this and they have actually come back with their offer, it has been not just a tiny bit below my ideal, but way, way off base from what I was previously earning, let alone what I was actually seeking to earn in the new role.
- incepted 11y ago
  State the one you want, not the one you're currently making. They won't (and legally should't be able to) check. And if they do and somehow, your previous employer disclosed this to them (a big no no), you can always say "I was underpaid then and what I was making there is not relevant to the position I'm applying to with your right now. I also think I've learned a lot in my past position, which justifies this jump in compensation".
estreeper 11y ago
Perhaps one strategy would be to give them a baseline salary (higher than your current salary, of course). You could tell them that in general based on the kind of work you are doing, responsibilities, etc. you would expect more, but under no circumstances would you consider any offer less than that.
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  Whatever you do, do not say a low number expecting to increase it later. If you want to give a number, give a high one that you are ok with the company negotiating down, because that is what will happen.
buserror 11y ago
My reply to the 'our company is doing so well, you will ALSO do very well once you bed in' is to remind them that most notable pay rises you ever get during your career is when you switch job. So negotiate your pay NOW because for all you know, you'll be stuck to that sort of level for X years to come if you are unlucky. As for 'shares' I flatly refuse to even consider that as part of a package. if they want to /add/ them it's wonderful, but I've been so many time multi-millionaire in 'options' that it's not even funny. As for 'yes but the work/team is so rewarding' point I counter that it's a lot better if there isn't a sour note about being underpaid mixed in. Pay me well, and I'll be the one pulling the team to be all shinny and dynamic. However, ultimately, you STILL get underpaid unless you go to the usual suspects like GG and such. That's why I gave up 'career' and went off contracting. Turns out being a mercenary is rewarding in many ways, including monetary !
- spinlock 11y ago
  How do you get business. Im thinking of consulting but I don't know where to start in selling myself.
  - chii 11y ago
    It would be interesting to find out this, because I think contracting is better too!
  - buserror 11y ago
    Well, it's a matter of knowing a few people most of the time; a few agents you can 'trust', and then a small pool of returning clients who'll ask you to do stuff once a year or so... The networking is always important, even as an employee -- always brush up your network, it might save your ass next time there is a shakeup at the company you work for, and might also give you the occasion to slam the door and move on if necessary. I think there is nothing worse in life than waking up realizing you have to go to work to a job you hate, with people who are beepheads for a product that is a failure and going to the wall.... while knowing you don't have the freedom to just go.
noonespecial 11y ago
And now you know everything you'll ever need to about the "shortage" of tech talent.
lovich 11y ago
I know it's anecdata, but to confirm your experience I have had recruiters and hr reps tell me explicitly that either they will not continue without salary information or that the software their company mandated that they use would not allow them to continue with no salary or a $0 salary
- p4wnc6 11y ago
  lol, that software answer is great. I would offer to write some software for them that treats salary info as optional.
- Terr_ 11y ago
  "Strange, that kind of restriction must make it very difficult for you to find good talent. OK, how about you enter $999,999. It's an such an obvious placeholder that it won't fall through the cracks and it'll be easy to fix it later." "Too open-ended? Then how about you just put in the lowest/highest amount YOU'D be willing to accept and we move from there."
JoshDoody 11y ago
It's tough to decide where to leave this reply, and this seems like a good place to address a few things I've seen in the replies to my comment. Usually, my advice is "don't share you current or desired salary", but the one exception I've discussed with some people is when they're concerned they'll be low-balled. In those cases, I've suggested it might be better to just disclose your desired salary. I've been rethinking this lately. I think a better tack might be to ask the company to share the salary range they're offering for the position. (You're only doing this if you're concerned you'll go through the interview process and get an offer so low you can't even counter with anything reasonable.) In this case, you have virtually nothing to lose: either they'll tell you the range and you'll know if you're wasting your time, or they'll refuse and now you're both refusing to disclose the "desired" salary component. In the latter case, you can choose to continue with the process or not, depending on your general feeling about the opportunity. The more I think about it, the more I suspect you should _never_ reveal your desired salary because it can basically only cost you money. When you do reveal your desired salary, you're basically guessing and gambling. You're guessing at the range they're offering, and gambling that you don't undershoot and cost yourself money. (See this clip on why I think it's so important to protect the few pieces of information you have in a negotiation: https://youtu.be/ndrY2UI-fyU https://youtu.be/ndrY2UI-fyU TL;DR, you have only two or three unique pieces of information that the company doesn't have; the company has oodles and oodles of information that you don't have; they have a significant informational advantage in your negotiation and this is bad for you, but it's worse if you give away the few pieces of unique information that you have.) This is a worse gamble than simply interviewing to see what they're best offer is, IMO. If you go all the way through the interview process and find they can't afford you, you wasted a few hours of interview time. If you guess and gamble by disclosing your desired salary, you're risking thousands of dollars of base salary over several years. Odds are, the opportunity cost of your time isn't anywhere near the potential downside of guessing wrong with respect to the base salary they're willing to pay. (I'm going to sleep on this, but it feels right) So, my suggestion is don't disclose your desired salary, even if you're afraid their offer will be way too low or if the recruiter says they won't continue without it. If you're dealing with a very persistent recruiter OR you're afraid they can't afford you, ask them to tell you the salary range they're offering so you can tell them if it meets your requirements. If they won't tell you, then you can choose to continue and possibly get a low offer, walk away, or the recruiter may end the conversation (this is rare, in my experience, but I'd be open to seeing data to change my mind). All of these outcomes are preferable to the alternative, which is risking thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars of base salary by guessing at their range and gambling by disclosing your desired salary. The bottom line is the company has something you need: a job. BUT you have something the company needs: skills and experience that can help them make money. Don't be fooled into perceiving a salary negotiation as a one-sided affair.
Dr_tldr 11y ago
Your experience with small to mid-sized firms does sound depressingly typical and I've experienced it too, but I think it's worth mentioning that Amazon specifically won't reject you for not saying a number.

by p4wnc6 11y ago

lexhaynes 11y ago

How do you respond when they ask you for your salary information? Would it be perceuved as rude to say "I decline to state"?

p4wnc6 11y ago
I have practiced that part and read just about everything I can find about it. Generally I say something like, "I appreciate the need to consider salary as an important part of the process, but since we have only just started talking about the position I feel it would be best to make sure that I really am the sort of technical and cultural fit you are looking for. If we can determine that I am the right fit for the role, then the salary information will fall into place at the appropriate time. But if it seems that I am not the right fit for your team, then no amount of salary discussions will be able to help us." I have a few variations on that kind of description that I use. It's entirely possible that the way I say it can come off as rude, and I think that did happen to me especially a few times when I first started doing this. But I have practiced it, asked friends for advice about how to say it better, how it sounds, etc., and researched a lot about this online. So I have some confidence that it is coming off as strong and assertive, but not rude, and it is communicated clearly in good-faith because I truly am primarily interested in whether the cultural fit is a good one. Even so, these kinds of HR-approved ways of talking only ever result in about a 95% chance of immediate rejection. Whenever I have made it past the initial question about salary, and eventually salary comes up again towards the stage when an offer is made, I have a different way of talking about it. At that stage, if they ask me again, I will usually say something like, "I have spoken with the team and had a great chance to learn about your company and how I could fit in with this role. If you have a particular salary range that you'd like to share with me, I can definitely let you know how it will match up with my expectations." Again, I have some slight variations on that, but it's more or less the same idea of changing their question asked of me into my question asked of them. They can't keep coming back and specifically asking me for a number without seeming very awkward, and if they do that it's sometimes a red flag and I would usually be happy walking away if they were to heavily press me at that point. Unfortunately, as I mentioned above, when people have been OK with all of this and they have actually come back with their offer, it has been not just a tiny bit below my ideal, but way, way off base from what I was previously earning, let alone what I was actually seeking to earn in the new role.
incepted 11y ago
State the one you want, not the one you're currently making. They won't (and legally should't be able to) check. And if they do and somehow, your previous employer disclosed this to them (a big no no), you can always say "I was underpaid then and what I was making there is not relevant to the position I'm applying to with your right now. I also think I've learned a lot in my past position, which justifies this jump in compensation".

estreeper 11y ago

Perhaps one strategy would be to give them a baseline salary (higher than your current salary, of course). You could tell them that in general based on the kind of work you are doing, responsibilities, etc. you would expect more, but under no circumstances would you consider any offer less than that.

marcosdumay 11y ago
Whatever you do, do not say a low number expecting to increase it later. If you want to give a number, give a high one that you are ok with the company negotiating down, because that is what will happen.

buserror 11y ago

My reply to the 'our company is doing so well, you will ALSO do very well once you bed in' is to remind them that most notable pay rises you ever get during your career is when you switch job. So negotiate your pay NOW because for all you know, you'll be stuck to that sort of level for X years to come if you are unlucky. As for 'shares' I flatly refuse to even consider that as part of a package. if they want to /add/ them it's wonderful, but I've been so many time multi-millionaire in 'options' that it's not even funny. As for 'yes but the work/team is so rewarding' point I counter that it's a lot better if there isn't a sour note about being underpaid mixed in. Pay me well, and I'll be the one pulling the team to be all shinny and dynamic. However, ultimately, you STILL get underpaid unless you go to the usual suspects like GG and such. That's why I gave up 'career' and went off contracting. Turns out being a mercenary is rewarding in many ways, including monetary !

spinlock 11y ago
How do you get business. Im thinking of consulting but I don't know where to start in selling myself.
- chii 11y ago
  It would be interesting to find out this, because I think contracting is better too!
- buserror 11y ago
  Well, it's a matter of knowing a few people most of the time; a few agents you can 'trust', and then a small pool of returning clients who'll ask you to do stuff once a year or so... The networking is always important, even as an employee -- always brush up your network, it might save your ass next time there is a shakeup at the company you work for, and might also give you the occasion to slam the door and move on if necessary. I think there is nothing worse in life than waking up realizing you have to go to work to a job you hate, with people who are beepheads for a product that is a failure and going to the wall.... while knowing you don't have the freedom to just go.

noonespecial 11y ago

And now you know everything you'll ever need to about the "shortage" of tech talent.

lovich 11y ago

I know it's anecdata, but to confirm your experience I have had recruiters and hr reps tell me explicitly that either they will not continue without salary information or that the software their company mandated that they use would not allow them to continue with no salary or a $0 salary

p4wnc6 11y ago
lol, that software answer is great. I would offer to write some software for them that treats salary info as optional.
Terr_ 11y ago
"Strange, that kind of restriction must make it very difficult for you to find good talent. OK, how about you enter $999,999. It's an such an obvious placeholder that it won't fall through the cracks and it'll be easy to fix it later." "Too open-ended? Then how about you just put in the lowest/highest amount YOU'D be willing to accept and we move from there."

JoshDoody 11y ago

It's tough to decide where to leave this reply, and this seems like a good place to address a few things I've seen in the replies to my comment. Usually, my advice is "don't share you current or desired salary", but the one exception I've discussed with some people is when they're concerned they'll be low-balled. In those cases, I've suggested it might be better to just disclose your desired salary. I've been rethinking this lately. I think a better tack might be to ask the company to share the salary range they're offering for the position. (You're only doing this if you're concerned you'll go through the interview process and get an offer so low you can't even counter with anything reasonable.) In this case, you have virtually nothing to lose: either they'll tell you the range and you'll know if you're wasting your time, or they'll refuse and now you're both refusing to disclose the "desired" salary component. In the latter case, you can choose to continue with the process or not, depending on your general feeling about the opportunity. The more I think about it, the more I suspect you should _never_ reveal your desired salary because it can basically only cost you money. When you do reveal your desired salary, you're basically guessing and gambling. You're guessing at the range they're offering, and gambling that you don't undershoot and cost yourself money. (See this clip on why I think it's so important to protect the few pieces of information you have in a negotiation: https://youtu.be/ndrY2UI-fyU https://youtu.be/ndrY2UI-fyU TL;DR, you have only two or three unique pieces of information that the company doesn't have; the company has oodles and oodles of information that you don't have; they have a significant informational advantage in your negotiation and this is bad for you, but it's worse if you give away the few pieces of unique information that you have.) This is a worse gamble than simply interviewing to see what they're best offer is, IMO. If you go all the way through the interview process and find they can't afford you, you wasted a few hours of interview time. If you guess and gamble by disclosing your desired salary, you're risking thousands of dollars of base salary over several years. Odds are, the opportunity cost of your time isn't anywhere near the potential downside of guessing wrong with respect to the base salary they're willing to pay. (I'm going to sleep on this, but it feels right) So, my suggestion is don't disclose your desired salary, even if you're afraid their offer will be way too low or if the recruiter says they won't continue without it. If you're dealing with a very persistent recruiter OR you're afraid they can't afford you, ask them to tell you the salary range they're offering so you can tell them if it meets your requirements. If they won't tell you, then you can choose to continue and possibly get a low offer, walk away, or the recruiter may end the conversation (this is rare, in my experience, but I'd be open to seeing data to change my mind). All of these outcomes are preferable to the alternative, which is risking thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars of base salary by guessing at their range and gambling by disclosing your desired salary. The bottom line is the company has something you need: a job. BUT you have something the company needs: skills and experience that can help them make money. Don't be fooled into perceiving a salary negotiation as a one-sided affair.

Dr_tldr 11y ago

Your experience with small to mid-sized firms does sound depressingly typical and I've experienced it too, but I think it's worth mentioning that Amazon specifically won't reject you for not saying a number.