8 ms·

These are not the downtrodden masses. Immigrant does not mean poor. These are wealthy upper class people coming to the most logical place to create a successful

by staunch 11y ago

These are not the downtrodden masses. Immigrant does not mean poor. These are wealthy upper class people coming to the most logical place to create a successful technology company, because they can afford to do so. Poor people are usually stuck wherever they are. Investors in Silicon Valley care a lot about status and pedigree. A foreigner that can afford elite credentials is far more likely to get funding than a poor local. And of course H1B visas drive down wages. This is basic supply and demand.

ra1n85 11y ago
Are you sure H1B visas are relevant here? I would imagine EB-5 (investment) visas would be the more common route for upper class immigrant entrepreneurs coming to the US.
- cft 11y ago
  They are more like upper-middle classes (not upper classes).
  - ausjke 11y ago
    exactly, many of them are well educated and trained indeed.
- GuiA 11y ago
  Not quite so sure. I was a startup cofounder (never made it to billion dollar though :), and came to the US via grad school on an F1 visa, which then morphed into an H1B, and am now in the process of getting a green card. I know this is a very common path. Regarding the class thing: my grandparents were blue collar workers who never went to high school, my parents were engineers.
  - chrisper 11y ago
    IANAL, but you cannot legally work on your own startup if you are on H1B
    - ojbyrne 11y ago
      You can be a "co-founder" of a funded startup though. As long as the company has enough financial backing to prove they can pay you a market wage, and you meet the other requirements.
      - chrisper 11y ago
        Oh, that makes sense!
- tosseraccount 11y ago
  The WSJ article specifically mentions H-1B visas. The Wall Street Journal often editorializes in support of more guest workers. Professor Norm Matloff presents a detailed critique of the H-1B visa : http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html ... "The H-1B work visa is fundamentally about cheap, de facto indentured labor." I'm not sure how lean, garage startups feel about Venture Capital's special access to guest workers for their competing "Billion Dollar Startups". I would guess that their views are little more nuanced than the Wall Street Journal's take on it. The biggest H1-B employers , are in fact, outsourcing firms : http://www.businessweek.com/table/08/0305_h1b.htm http://www.businessweek.com/table/08/0305_h1b.htm . Their frequent editorials often fail to mention this.
- klipt 11y ago
  Elon Musk was an H1-B.
  - foobarqux 11y ago
    No, he was OPT, at least initially.
    - OmarIsmail 11y ago
      OPT doesn't last very long (18 months max I think). The standard path for students is F1->OPT->H1B->Green Card->Citizen.
      - fgandiya 11y ago
        It's now three years for stem https://www.att.com/deviceunlock/ https://www.att.com/deviceunlock/
        klipt 11y ago
        The STEM extension is a recent (2008) development, probably motivated by the fact that H1-Bs are now a lottery so students need multiple shots to have a chance at winning. Back when Musk would've applied, that wasn't a problem, he would've gotten an H1-B pretty easily. While you can go straight from OPT to green card, getting an H1-B first is much better since it's dual intent, so you're not prevented from traveling during the green card application (which you would be on OPT).
      - foobarqux 11y ago
        I suspect he never got an H1-B; his brother was in the US without a visa.
- ra1n85 11y ago
  I was downvoted for this comment. I don't even know what to think about that.
- ra1n85 11y ago
  I was downvoted for this comment. I don't even know what to think about that.
Alex3917 11y ago
> These are not the downtrodden masses. A lot of them are, if not downtrodden, at the least unable to earn a wage in the labor markets that is commensurate with their skill set.
- NhanH 11y ago
  Isn't that the limitation of the current immigration system, rather than anything on the immigrants themselves?
  - Alex3917 11y ago
    Not really. If you're a doctor in your home country, then most likely you'll be working in a grocery store or something in the U.S. If your professional certifications aren't honored, your work experience isn't considered valid, and you're not fluent in the language then you'd be lucky to be getting 1 / 10th what you'd otherwise be earning. Jeff Bezos and Joshua Schachter aside, there's a probably a reason why relatively few successful wall street folks quit to do a startup.
mc32 11y ago
First, educated and immigrants of means are a great addition to any economy they go to and a drain to the economies they leave. It's understandable why educated people might want to leave a country with few economic opportunities for their careers. What I'm not so clear on is what attracts educated people of means to emigrate to the US [and AU and UK] from otherwise stable mature economies? We're better off for them, just a question as to what attracts them given they also have opportunities in their home countries.
- rayiner 11y ago
  You can make a lot more money in the U.S. From entrepreneurship, of course, but Professionals and executives get paid way more in the U.S. too.
  - mc32 11y ago
    That's true; however, the stereotype is that in a lot of places that are not the US, except for China, value other "social cohesion" characteristics of their economies over "crass" pursuit of money. If that stereotype still has merit, then it implies the ones who come here are the ones who believe in US-style economics over their homelands' --which is neither here nor there, just an observation.
- bkanber 11y ago
  It's simple: the US economy is huge. It's bigger than Japan, Germany, France, Brazil, and the UK combined. It's got the same GDP as the EU and as China, but half the population (and 1/4, respectively). No matter where you are, the US can be a step up -- as is indicated by the OP. These are exactly the immigrants you're asking about, and they came for a shot at exactly this, which they couldn't get back at home. Incidentally, here's a cool infographic: http://graphics.wsj.com/global-growth/ http://graphics.wsj.com/global-growth/
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- hibikir 11y ago
  I come from Spain, and the situation was very easy: Spain's cities have a midwest-like cost of living. A programmer there, right out of school, is what we call a mileurista: Someone with a take home of about a thousand Euros a month. In comparison, my first job in the midwest paid three times that. And that's the difference at the beginning of a career. Nobody programming over there will make more than, maybe, 3500 euros a month, unless they start their own company. Last year, I went past 18K a month, in a stable, 9-5 job. The market is so good, I could quit my job any day I want, and I get to choose among a bunch of great alternatives, including bay area companies that hire remotes. In comparison, Spain has about 20% unemployment. If anything, I would ask other programmers from Spain why in the world aren't they leaving!
lqdc13 11y ago
Tons of people who emigrated are poor but are more motivated to take on risk and work on things. Because immigration is taking on risk and because you have to work on documents and push your way through to leave.
- Robelius 11y ago
  Immigrants are a self-selecting group. The barriers you have to cross leave the most motivated individuals/families capable of coming here. The immigrating generation, at least from my experience, come with the intention of setting up their children with better possibilities. Their lives revolve around making their kids hard workers in school, which transfers over into their character. There's a joke in my community between the younger generation that we all had two choices after high school. You could choose to be a lawyer or doctor. If your parents were kind, then you could be an engineer.
  - bardworx 11y ago
    > Immigrants are a self-selecting group I find this offensive, as an immigrant. Also, my mother (and sister) worked in a sweat shop (they needle thread tags on imported/fake clothes underneath a laundromat) to put food on the table while going to school. My mother didn't "sacrifice" everything for us, she worked hard; became a programmer; and didn't allow my sibling and I to work less then her. > There's a joke in my community between the younger generation that we all had two choices after high school. You could choose to be a lawyer or doctor. If your parents were kind, then you could be an engineer. First time I had a steak, I was 18 years old and working as a waiter...the steak was $5 if you were staff. Prior, my understanding of meat product was salami and hot dogs. It's great when you have the ability to go to law/med school but that doesn't work for all folks. Immigrants have a tireless work ethic because they know what it's like to be hungry. As a kid, I slept on top of a pig pen (it was the coolest place on the farm) and waited two hours to get milk for my family (before they woke up). That strength, commitment, and desire is what drives immigrants to achieve. Joking about law school is not really an option where I come from.
    - 11y ago
chiaro 11y ago
>And of course H1B visas drive down wages. This is basic supply and demand. In the short run. The increased growth associated with them would typically lead to a general rise in wages in the long run. They also offset the tendency for companies to just move overseas.
- moistgorilla 11y ago
  This is not true. Unchecked immigration is always a negative for native workers. It can be accurately described as wealth redistribution from workers to the companies that employee them. They cause $515 billion in losses for native workers and $565 billion gains for native businesses. Look at the chart on page 9 https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/03-16-16%20Borjas%20Testimony.pdf https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/03-16-16%20Bo...
  - chiaro 11y ago
    This is misrepresenting the data. The majority of economists and the relevant literature agree that allowing more freedom of immigration improves the welfare of American worker. This is ignoring the huge benefits to the immigrants themselves. To appeal to what I imagine HN's ideology is, the arguments are similar to those around making the market more free--when you prevent buyers and sellers from making transactions they otherwise would, you inhibit growth. Only 9% of economists disagree with the statement: "The average US citizen would be better off if a larger number of low-skilled foreign workers were legally allowed to enter the US each year." http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-results?SurveyID=SV_5vuNnqkBeAMAfHv http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-re... 0% of economists disagree with the statement: "The average US citizen would be better off if a larger number of highly educated foreign workers were legally allowed to immigrate to the US each year." http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-results?SurveyID=SV_0JtSLKwzqNSfrAF http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-re... EDIT, since we're at the reply limit: Borjas is kind of heterodox, and without the chance now to do a better review of his literature I'm inclined to sided with the fairly overwhelming consensus. Picking two graphs that look similar isn't really a convincing argument, and 'redistribution' implies that this is a zero-sum change. My position generally is that H-1B's (and whatever *-1B you suggest) would generally be good for the economy, though suffer from implementation issues and unnecessary restrictions.
davidw 11y ago
> basic supply and demand. Right, but these things sometimes go a bit beyond that with 'externalities', which can be both positive and negative, and various other economic factors that come into play. Sometimes there are 'vicious circles', but also 'virtuous circles'. More people, more talent, more expertise, more jobs, and so on.
chetanahuja 11y ago
Yeah just go on and make up shit as long as it makes you feel better. The foreigner that can "afford" elite credentials is actually a foreigner from a humble background who came through the most competitive process in the world and managed to get scholarship in a US graduate school. It's obvious that whoever you are, you haven't actually tried to get to know anything about these pesky foreigners'(who probably work with you on a daily basis) personal life and background. If you had, you'd know that a profile like this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3195384/Pictured-painfully-shy-nerdy-Indian-schoolboy-spectacular-rise-150million-king-Google.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3195384/Pictured-pai... is actually a rule rather than an exception.
- theparanoid 11y ago
  Sundar's father was an engineer, not a typical person in India. Or even America. When I worked in tech, I knew exactly one engineer from a low class background (American). It was eye opening seeing first hand how rare people of non educated backgrounds are in tech. I'm no exception, all but one of my grand parents was educated.
  - chetanahuja 11y ago
    An "engineer" doesn't necessarily mean high wages and insane perks as today's software industry has taught us to believe. A civil, mechanical, electrical or metallurgical engineer working in some government department in India is the very definition of a humble middle class life. And I mean middle class by Indian standards. That same article I linked to above has the following tidbit. "Yet simply getting there was difficult. His parents, who had always ensured their two boys got the best education they could afford, ended up withdrawing £1,000 - more than Regunatha earned in a year - to put him on the plane." Rest assured, Sundar wasn't some rich foreigner (as in the fevered imagination of GP commenter @staunch) who's parents got him admission to top schools to ease his path in the world. But here's the kicker, of all the Indian immigrants I know in the valley (source: am one myself), a majority come from backgrounds humbler than Sundars. For one thing, being born to technically educated parents is not at all typical. Not even among the population of immigrant software engineers. I don't know what your definition of "low class" is. But if you're looking for software engineers who grew up in one room houses with 2-3 siblings who's parents were barely making ends meet while providing the best education they could to their kids, just walk upto any group of 4-5 Indian immigrants you see in the valley. You'll find at least one or two such folks in every such group (source: am one myself).
winter_blue 11y ago
> These are wealthy upper class people coming to the most logical place They usually need to get an H-1B visa as part of the immigration process. You are insinuating that "wealthy upper class" can immigrate without obeying visa rules. That is ridiculous. > A foreigner that can afford elite credentials Many of their families probably can barely afford to pay for college in the U.S., but they scoop up the money to do so, in hope of a better life for their offspring. The United States however subjects them to an arbitrary H-1B lottery that decides if they get to stay in the country after graduation (and OPT). > far more likely to get funding than a poor local. Are you seriously suggesting that investors in Silicon Valley discriminate in favor of people with college degrees over poor uneducated people?
- silentElephant 11y ago
  He's not referring to H1Bs. http://goldsea.com/Text/index.php?id=6205 http://goldsea.com/Text/index.php?id=6205 Sehat Sutardja. One of many such examples. All you needed to do was fly your pregnant wife over to get American citizenship...but that's changing now.
  - winter_blue 11y ago
    Your example, Sehat Sutardja, almost definitely got an H-1B visa after they graduated. The H-1B is pretty much the only way one can stay after graduation (and OPT). So your point is moot.
  - winter_blue 11y ago
    > All you needed to do was fly your pregnant wife over to get American citizenship...but that's changing now. This statement is steeped in such ignorance. You get absolutely no immigration benefit whatsoever by having a U.S. citizen child. If you are talking about a child's citizenship, then FYI, birthright citizenship (part of the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution) has not been repealed.
    - fiatmoney 11y ago
      That's untrue. The benefit is not immediate, but as soon as that child is 21 they are able to petition for immigration status for their parents for family reunification. In fact the majority of US imigration happens via family reunification. http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/family-reunification http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/family-reunification
NetStrikeForce 11y ago
> And of course H1B visas drive down wages. This is basic supply and demand. Unless those H1B holders create 10 extra work positions on average, then H1B visas will drive up wages. Basic supply and demand. Both your statement and mine are incorrect or, at least, incomplete. There's no such thing as "basic" supply and demand.
ArkyBeagle 11y ago
See also "The Lump of Labor Fallacy". Supply and demand only "work" in cases where supply can be raised in a roughly linear ( as in non-discontinuous ) fashion. The only means of raising the supply of programmers has a ten-year lag. H1B visas are an attempt at substitution. But it's not clear this works. Had I met happy, well-adjusted folks who were here formerly on an H1B, I'd be much less inclined to say that. I've mainly met angry people. WRT SiVa/SanFrancisco, the costs of living have massively outstripped even techie salaries. There is no programmer shortage. It's either a Machiavellian ploy or bad reading of tea leaves. If programmers cost too much, then there would be all sorts of accounting tricks to salve this wound. Quite the opposite is true. For every hour you spend programming, some multiple ( much > 1 ) of your employer's "burdened run rate" is attributed to it. The failure of the overall culture to come to terms with the things needed to produce software are reasonably obvious if you will only look.

by staunch 11y ago

ra1n85 11y ago

Are you sure H1B visas are relevant here? I would imagine EB-5 (investment) visas would be the more common route for upper class immigrant entrepreneurs coming to the US.

cft 11y ago
They are more like upper-middle classes (not upper classes).
- ausjke 11y ago
  exactly, many of them are well educated and trained indeed.
GuiA 11y ago
Not quite so sure. I was a startup cofounder (never made it to billion dollar though :), and came to the US via grad school on an F1 visa, which then morphed into an H1B, and am now in the process of getting a green card. I know this is a very common path. Regarding the class thing: my grandparents were blue collar workers who never went to high school, my parents were engineers.
- chrisper 11y ago
  IANAL, but you cannot legally work on your own startup if you are on H1B
  - ojbyrne 11y ago
    You can be a "co-founder" of a funded startup though. As long as the company has enough financial backing to prove they can pay you a market wage, and you meet the other requirements.
    - chrisper 11y ago
      Oh, that makes sense!
tosseraccount 11y ago
The WSJ article specifically mentions H-1B visas. The Wall Street Journal often editorializes in support of more guest workers. Professor Norm Matloff presents a detailed critique of the H-1B visa : http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html ... "The H-1B work visa is fundamentally about cheap, de facto indentured labor." I'm not sure how lean, garage startups feel about Venture Capital's special access to guest workers for their competing "Billion Dollar Startups". I would guess that their views are little more nuanced than the Wall Street Journal's take on it. The biggest H1-B employers , are in fact, outsourcing firms : http://www.businessweek.com/table/08/0305_h1b.htm http://www.businessweek.com/table/08/0305_h1b.htm . Their frequent editorials often fail to mention this.
klipt 11y ago
Elon Musk was an H1-B.
- foobarqux 11y ago
  No, he was OPT, at least initially.
  - OmarIsmail 11y ago
    OPT doesn't last very long (18 months max I think). The standard path for students is F1->OPT->H1B->Green Card->Citizen.
    - fgandiya 11y ago
      It's now three years for stem https://www.att.com/deviceunlock/ https://www.att.com/deviceunlock/
      - klipt 11y ago
        The STEM extension is a recent (2008) development, probably motivated by the fact that H1-Bs are now a lottery so students need multiple shots to have a chance at winning. Back when Musk would've applied, that wasn't a problem, he would've gotten an H1-B pretty easily. While you can go straight from OPT to green card, getting an H1-B first is much better since it's dual intent, so you're not prevented from traveling during the green card application (which you would be on OPT).
    - foobarqux 11y ago
      I suspect he never got an H1-B; his brother was in the US without a visa.
ra1n85 11y ago
I was downvoted for this comment. I don't even know what to think about that.
ra1n85 11y ago
I was downvoted for this comment. I don't even know what to think about that.

Alex3917 11y ago

> These are not the downtrodden masses. A lot of them are, if not downtrodden, at the least unable to earn a wage in the labor markets that is commensurate with their skill set.

NhanH 11y ago
Isn't that the limitation of the current immigration system, rather than anything on the immigrants themselves?
- Alex3917 11y ago
  Not really. If you're a doctor in your home country, then most likely you'll be working in a grocery store or something in the U.S. If your professional certifications aren't honored, your work experience isn't considered valid, and you're not fluent in the language then you'd be lucky to be getting 1 / 10th what you'd otherwise be earning. Jeff Bezos and Joshua Schachter aside, there's a probably a reason why relatively few successful wall street folks quit to do a startup.

mc32 11y ago

First, educated and immigrants of means are a great addition to any economy they go to and a drain to the economies they leave. It's understandable why educated people might want to leave a country with few economic opportunities for their careers. What I'm not so clear on is what attracts educated people of means to emigrate to the US [and AU and UK] from otherwise stable mature economies? We're better off for them, just a question as to what attracts them given they also have opportunities in their home countries.

rayiner 11y ago
You can make a lot more money in the U.S. From entrepreneurship, of course, but Professionals and executives get paid way more in the U.S. too.
- mc32 11y ago
  That's true; however, the stereotype is that in a lot of places that are not the US, except for China, value other "social cohesion" characteristics of their economies over "crass" pursuit of money. If that stereotype still has merit, then it implies the ones who come here are the ones who believe in US-style economics over their homelands' --which is neither here nor there, just an observation.
bkanber 11y ago
It's simple: the US economy is huge. It's bigger than Japan, Germany, France, Brazil, and the UK combined. It's got the same GDP as the EU and as China, but half the population (and 1/4, respectively). No matter where you are, the US can be a step up -- as is indicated by the OP. These are exactly the immigrants you're asking about, and they came for a shot at exactly this, which they couldn't get back at home. Incidentally, here's a cool infographic: http://graphics.wsj.com/global-growth/ http://graphics.wsj.com/global-growth/
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
hibikir 11y ago
I come from Spain, and the situation was very easy: Spain's cities have a midwest-like cost of living. A programmer there, right out of school, is what we call a mileurista: Someone with a take home of about a thousand Euros a month. In comparison, my first job in the midwest paid three times that. And that's the difference at the beginning of a career. Nobody programming over there will make more than, maybe, 3500 euros a month, unless they start their own company. Last year, I went past 18K a month, in a stable, 9-5 job. The market is so good, I could quit my job any day I want, and I get to choose among a bunch of great alternatives, including bay area companies that hire remotes. In comparison, Spain has about 20% unemployment. If anything, I would ask other programmers from Spain why in the world aren't they leaving!

lqdc13 11y ago

Tons of people who emigrated are poor but are more motivated to take on risk and work on things. Because immigration is taking on risk and because you have to work on documents and push your way through to leave.

Robelius 11y ago
Immigrants are a self-selecting group. The barriers you have to cross leave the most motivated individuals/families capable of coming here. The immigrating generation, at least from my experience, come with the intention of setting up their children with better possibilities. Their lives revolve around making their kids hard workers in school, which transfers over into their character. There's a joke in my community between the younger generation that we all had two choices after high school. You could choose to be a lawyer or doctor. If your parents were kind, then you could be an engineer.
- bardworx 11y ago
  > Immigrants are a self-selecting group I find this offensive, as an immigrant. Also, my mother (and sister) worked in a sweat shop (they needle thread tags on imported/fake clothes underneath a laundromat) to put food on the table while going to school. My mother didn't "sacrifice" everything for us, she worked hard; became a programmer; and didn't allow my sibling and I to work less then her. > There's a joke in my community between the younger generation that we all had two choices after high school. You could choose to be a lawyer or doctor. If your parents were kind, then you could be an engineer. First time I had a steak, I was 18 years old and working as a waiter...the steak was $5 if you were staff. Prior, my understanding of meat product was salami and hot dogs. It's great when you have the ability to go to law/med school but that doesn't work for all folks. Immigrants have a tireless work ethic because they know what it's like to be hungry. As a kid, I slept on top of a pig pen (it was the coolest place on the farm) and waited two hours to get milk for my family (before they woke up). That strength, commitment, and desire is what drives immigrants to achieve. Joking about law school is not really an option where I come from.
  - 11y ago

chiaro 11y ago

>And of course H1B visas drive down wages. This is basic supply and demand. In the short run. The increased growth associated with them would typically lead to a general rise in wages in the long run. They also offset the tendency for companies to just move overseas.

moistgorilla 11y ago
This is not true. Unchecked immigration is always a negative for native workers. It can be accurately described as wealth redistribution from workers to the companies that employee them. They cause $515 billion in losses for native workers and $565 billion gains for native businesses. Look at the chart on page 9 https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/03-16-16%20Borjas%20Testimony.pdf https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/03-16-16%20Bo...
- chiaro 11y ago
  This is misrepresenting the data. The majority of economists and the relevant literature agree that allowing more freedom of immigration improves the welfare of American worker. This is ignoring the huge benefits to the immigrants themselves. To appeal to what I imagine HN's ideology is, the arguments are similar to those around making the market more free--when you prevent buyers and sellers from making transactions they otherwise would, you inhibit growth. Only 9% of economists disagree with the statement: "The average US citizen would be better off if a larger number of low-skilled foreign workers were legally allowed to enter the US each year." http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-results?SurveyID=SV_5vuNnqkBeAMAfHv http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-re... 0% of economists disagree with the statement: "The average US citizen would be better off if a larger number of highly educated foreign workers were legally allowed to immigrate to the US each year." http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-results?SurveyID=SV_0JtSLKwzqNSfrAF http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-re... EDIT, since we're at the reply limit: Borjas is kind of heterodox, and without the chance now to do a better review of his literature I'm inclined to sided with the fairly overwhelming consensus. Picking two graphs that look similar isn't really a convincing argument, and 'redistribution' implies that this is a zero-sum change. My position generally is that H-1B's (and whatever *-1B you suggest) would generally be good for the economy, though suffer from implementation issues and unnecessary restrictions.

davidw 11y ago

> basic supply and demand. Right, but these things sometimes go a bit beyond that with 'externalities', which can be both positive and negative, and various other economic factors that come into play. Sometimes there are 'vicious circles', but also 'virtuous circles'. More people, more talent, more expertise, more jobs, and so on.

chetanahuja 11y ago

Yeah just go on and make up shit as long as it makes you feel better. The foreigner that can "afford" elite credentials is actually a foreigner from a humble background who came through the most competitive process in the world and managed to get scholarship in a US graduate school. It's obvious that whoever you are, you haven't actually tried to get to know anything about these pesky foreigners'(who probably work with you on a daily basis) personal life and background. If you had, you'd know that a profile like this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3195384/Pictured-painfully-shy-nerdy-Indian-schoolboy-spectacular-rise-150million-king-Google.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3195384/Pictured-pai... is actually a rule rather than an exception.

theparanoid 11y ago
Sundar's father was an engineer, not a typical person in India. Or even America. When I worked in tech, I knew exactly one engineer from a low class background (American). It was eye opening seeing first hand how rare people of non educated backgrounds are in tech. I'm no exception, all but one of my grand parents was educated.
- chetanahuja 11y ago
  An "engineer" doesn't necessarily mean high wages and insane perks as today's software industry has taught us to believe. A civil, mechanical, electrical or metallurgical engineer working in some government department in India is the very definition of a humble middle class life. And I mean middle class by Indian standards. That same article I linked to above has the following tidbit. "Yet simply getting there was difficult. His parents, who had always ensured their two boys got the best education they could afford, ended up withdrawing £1,000 - more than Regunatha earned in a year - to put him on the plane." Rest assured, Sundar wasn't some rich foreigner (as in the fevered imagination of GP commenter @staunch) who's parents got him admission to top schools to ease his path in the world. But here's the kicker, of all the Indian immigrants I know in the valley (source: am one myself), a majority come from backgrounds humbler than Sundars. For one thing, being born to technically educated parents is not at all typical. Not even among the population of immigrant software engineers. I don't know what your definition of "low class" is. But if you're looking for software engineers who grew up in one room houses with 2-3 siblings who's parents were barely making ends meet while providing the best education they could to their kids, just walk upto any group of 4-5 Indian immigrants you see in the valley. You'll find at least one or two such folks in every such group (source: am one myself).

winter_blue 11y ago

> These are wealthy upper class people coming to the most logical place They usually need to get an H-1B visa as part of the immigration process. You are insinuating that "wealthy upper class" can immigrate without obeying visa rules. That is ridiculous. > A foreigner that can afford elite credentials Many of their families probably can barely afford to pay for college in the U.S., but they scoop up the money to do so, in hope of a better life for their offspring. The United States however subjects them to an arbitrary H-1B lottery that decides if they get to stay in the country after graduation (and OPT). > far more likely to get funding than a poor local. Are you seriously suggesting that investors in Silicon Valley discriminate in favor of people with college degrees over poor uneducated people?

silentElephant 11y ago
He's not referring to H1Bs. http://goldsea.com/Text/index.php?id=6205 http://goldsea.com/Text/index.php?id=6205 Sehat Sutardja. One of many such examples. All you needed to do was fly your pregnant wife over to get American citizenship...but that's changing now.
- winter_blue 11y ago
  Your example, Sehat Sutardja, almost definitely got an H-1B visa after they graduated. The H-1B is pretty much the only way one can stay after graduation (and OPT). So your point is moot.
- winter_blue 11y ago
  > All you needed to do was fly your pregnant wife over to get American citizenship...but that's changing now. This statement is steeped in such ignorance. You get absolutely no immigration benefit whatsoever by having a U.S. citizen child. If you are talking about a child's citizenship, then FYI, birthright citizenship (part of the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution) has not been repealed.
  - fiatmoney 11y ago
    That's untrue. The benefit is not immediate, but as soon as that child is 21 they are able to petition for immigration status for their parents for family reunification. In fact the majority of US imigration happens via family reunification. http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/family-reunification http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/family-reunification

NetStrikeForce 11y ago

> And of course H1B visas drive down wages. This is basic supply and demand. Unless those H1B holders create 10 extra work positions on average, then H1B visas will drive up wages. Basic supply and demand. Both your statement and mine are incorrect or, at least, incomplete. There's no such thing as "basic" supply and demand.

ArkyBeagle 11y ago

See also "The Lump of Labor Fallacy". Supply and demand only "work" in cases where supply can be raised in a roughly linear ( as in non-discontinuous ) fashion. The only means of raising the supply of programmers has a ten-year lag. H1B visas are an attempt at substitution. But it's not clear this works. Had I met happy, well-adjusted folks who were here formerly on an H1B, I'd be much less inclined to say that. I've mainly met angry people. WRT SiVa/SanFrancisco, the costs of living have massively outstripped even techie salaries. There is no programmer shortage. It's either a Machiavellian ploy or bad reading of tea leaves. If programmers cost too much, then there would be all sorts of accounting tricks to salve this wound. Quite the opposite is true. For every hour you spend programming, some multiple ( much > 1 ) of your employer's "burdened run rate" is attributed to it. The failure of the overall culture to come to terms with the things needed to produce software are reasonably obvious if you will only look.