11 ms·

Windows 7 computers are automatically starting the Windows 10 upgrade

260 points by mendelk 11y ago

acqq 11y ago
Maybe the way to block it is still: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351 Subkey: HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate DWORD value: DisableOSUpgrade = 1 The MSFT decision to perform forced updates is covered, for example, by Extreme Tech, February 2: "Look out: Microsoft shifts Windows 10 to ‘Recommended’ update, automatic download" http://www.extremetech.com/computing/222326-look-out-microsoft-shifts-windows-10-to-recommended-update-automatic-download http://www.extremetech.com/computing/222326-look-out-microso... I still believe they shouldn't have done that and I hope they get sued, heavily. Even if nobody dies, it's not OK. People had fully working computer and some of them wont. I have one such computer, which works on Windows 7 but doesn't on Windows 10.
- justinclift 11y ago
  I'm really hoping this crap badly affects the computers of some large justice/gov systems around the world (and/or the home computers of senior judges). That should get the right people involved for sticking the boots in.
  - saidajigumi 11y ago
    If the IT staff for any large organization hasn't reviewed their inventory for affected systems and taken appropriate steps... that's outright incompetence. The writing has been on the wall for years and MS clearly documents unaffected systems (which includes Windows 7 Enterprise) and the required Group Policy to block the update[1]. [1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351
    - justinclift 11y ago
      Senior judges often don't operate that way. ;)
    - acqq 11y ago
      It's the same link I've already given above? And fascinatingly for you, "the writing was on the wall," and for some other commenters, it's unimaginable that it even happens. The perceptions of individuals are really hugely different.
      - tekklloneer 11y ago
        The difference in context is important. If you're working in IT, the writing was on the wall.
        saidajigumi 11y ago
        This is exactly what I was getting at. For individuals and small organizations that often have no dedicated IT staff at all, they're the ones who'll get hit by Microsoft's forced-upgrade policy. But for any large organization with deployed Windows systems, that absolutely requires a managed Windows environment for an ocean of reasons. That means a competent Windows IT staff that handles all those things, including: security configuration and updates, controlled testing and release of updates, data retention and deletion policies, and on and on. For such shops, handling a change like this from Microsoft is already day-in-the-life. They already have to vet updates that may (and do) break business-critical software, while also ensuring that critical security updates are pushed out in a timely manner, etc.
        chris_wot 11y ago
        There are literally millions of businesses with no IT department who bought consumer workstations or laptops running outside of a domain. There are millions of small businesses who literally don't have the expertise (or frankly, the need) to run a domain controller, and who certainly don't have enough money to justify purchasing a server and a Windows server license to do so. I'm genuinely curious as to whether I'll be down voted for this. It's completely the case, and I'm not asking not to be downvote do, but could folks at least explain why they don't like the comment?
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - xjay 11y ago
      Not sure why someone would downvote this. Incompetence is pretty much a constant in IT in varying degrees, but I'd expect IT professionals to know about kb3080351. It's certainly not "news" given the media attention this subject has had ever since the "explosion" in June/July, when Microsoft chose to ignore that opt out setting, and even re-enabling telemetry prior to the upgrade. Edit: I can take a downvote defending a factually correct point, which was originally posted by saidajigumi (who was downvoted, which is why I posted my somewhat cheeky (in retrospect) response, and why I upvoted his post). I don't think most people disagree about it being unfortunate for normal users to be upgraded, but that wasn't what our comments were about.
  - yardie 11y ago
    If the sys admin is doing there jobs correctly than system updates should be coming from a Windows update server using group policy rather than directly over the Internet. Nothing kills productivity like 1000 PCs trying to download the same files simultaneously.
    - acqq 11y ago
      What about a lot of computers which aren't in the possession of huge enterprises?
      - yardie 11y ago
        "the computers of some large justice/gov systems around the world"
        acqq 11y ago
        For example, the computers important guys use at home, and somebody still dies because the computer isn't available when it should have been? I know, EULA. That EULA is a "wild card" is the main problem now.
        shiven 11y ago
        the computers important guys use at home Hillary's email-gate? So, no, important guys should not be using home computers that control/decide life or death situations.
        acqq 11y ago
        > Hillary's email-gate? I'm failing to see how the topic you mention helps to understand better the issue discussed here, that people can and should be able to depend on their own personal computers even for some life-influencing situations, and that it's bad (in my opinion) having EULAs which absolve in this case MSFT from absolutely everything. You really believe the proper use of personal computers is just for playing games? OK then, I don't, but no need for further discussion.
  - kbart 11y ago
    "I'm really hoping this crap badly affects the computers of some large justice/gov systems around the world" Enterprise editions are not eligible for free upgrade to W10, so it's not likely. Also, there are additional safeguards, for example, you must get upgrades directly from MS, not WSUS (as per standard business practice). I'm sure MS thought that well and chose targets that are not likely to defend themselves in courts (home users and small business).
    - justinclift 11y ago
      It's unfortunate, but that's probably correct. :( Kind of wondering if this action by MS would count as abusive behaviour by a monopolist.
- kozukumi 11y ago
  Reading that KB article and Microsoft are being total dicks with such complicated instructions when they could have offered a download to a tiny program which simply allows the user to opt-out of all upgrade prompts for N months.
erickhill 11y ago
This upgrade occurred to my father's Dell laptop, which became hung during the install and essentially "locked" from his standpoint. (He lives in another state and I'm not able to assist his technical needs.) In any case, he took it to Office Max where he bought it and asked them to fix it. They did: they wiped his hard drive clean and installed Windows 10. With none of his files. Aggressive updating of an OS is not always a good thing, even with the best of intentions. It feels more like a desperate attempt to force some people into a world they don't want to be in so Customer Support can have a better time of it (I doubt customer support is having a better time of it right now).
- acqq 11y ago
  I also have a computer that Microsoft "decided" is "upgradeable" even if it's not. I guess they estimated that the total number of such computers is not going to cost them much. I do hope some class action suit happens. Only big companies install Enterprise versions of Windows, so a lot of users will have problems on the computers that otherwise normally worked. Even some that do very responsible work. And I hope that EULAs in which we give them our firstborns and become the organ donors are finally going to be burned in courts.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  Does your father still have the laptop? If so, ask him not to use it until you can get hold of it, and when you do I'd suggest running a Linux live distro on the machine with tools to recover deleted files, there's a decent chance you'll be able to recover many of them. I've had success with the tools included in Trinity Rescue Kit before, so I can recommend that to you. I've used it to recover a bunch of pictures that were lost with a drive reformat. http://trinityhome.org/Home/index.php?content=TRINITY_RESCUE_KIT____CPR_FOR_YOUR_COMPUTER&front_id=12&lang=en&locale=en http://trinityhome.org/Home/index.php?content=TRINITY_RESCUE...
  - chinhodado 11y ago
    I agree. Depending on the size of the HDD and the amount of data lost, there's a good chance that some data can be recovered, especially small files like office documents. That said, it's a HDD wipe followed immediately by a full Windows installation, so there's a high chance a lot of the data were overwritten already.
deelowe 11y ago
uhh. Could this not set them up for a lawsuit? I mean, I assume and argument could be made that there's some liability involved in MS screws up the installation or if some program fails to continue to function. This should be fun to watch.
- ourmandave 11y ago
  I just got upgraded Saturday and the EULA specifically says that you can't bring a class action lawsuit against them. They want you to try arbitration for 60 days and if that doesn't work then you can try small claims. Yeah, sure. Anyway I had two problems afterwards. It logged me into a TEMP account so no config changes were saved and my files appeared to be all missing. They weren't, it just the shortcuts all point to the C:\users\TEMP\ directories. There's a few fixes for that one. Mine was checking the box that stopped OneNote from auto loading at start up. After a reboot the start menu went away. The logo button is there but the menu doesn't come up. I found a site with a few fixed and tried them all in succession. I don't know which one solved it because I only rebooted after doing all of them. So now I have 30 days to downgrade to Win 7 or forever hold my peace. <backspaced off rant here />
  - DasIch 11y ago
    EULAs aren't legally binding in some countries because they're not disclosed before the sale. So this might protect them in the US but I could imagine it becoming a problem in other countries still.
  - ubernostrum 11y ago
    I know clickwrap EULAs have been contentious, but can a EULA for something you didn't even ask for and didn't want in the first place be forced on you against your will?
    - ourmandave 11y ago
      I had the option to not accept the EULA. In that case I was then free to not install Windows 10 despite it "prepping my system for the update" for an hour. I figured any attempt at a roll back at that point would have been worse than just proceeding. =(
mchahn 11y ago
Wouldn't the automatic upgrade mean you didn't agree to any T&C?
- krapp 11y ago
  You did agree if you set Windows Update to automatically install updates. The upgrade to Window 10 is being treated as an "update".
  - DannyBee 11y ago
    If they changed the T&C, that ain't gonna go well for them. (IE it probably won't be held to be consent)
  - unclebucknasty 11y ago
    Unless the auto-update terms in Windows Update expressly state that using it means you agree to any future, unknown terms that may apply to those updates, then agreeing to automatic updates would not be sufficient. That is, unless the terms for Windows 10 are exactly the same as the version from which you are upgrading. That hardly seems likely, given that it is free and comes with new features, such as advertising, etc.
    - krapp 11y ago
      All I can tell you is that it's listed under optional updates, and it's automatically checked[0]. [0]https://imgur.com/wOO1jzz https://imgur.com/wOO1jzz
  - scholia 11y ago
    It still brings up a EULA....
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    In 2010 Microsoft's update of Security Essentials changed Windows update from manual to automatic. [1] With an installation base in the hundreds of millions, if even 1% of users didn't know about this and switched to manual update, then that's a hell of a lot of people who are affected. 1. http://www.infoworld.com/article/2627526/antimalware/warning--microsoft-security-essentials-installer-zaps-automatic-updates-setting.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2627526/antimalware/warning...
Someone1234 11y ago
Strangely nobody has ever caught this on video. Just a handful of anonymous people claiming "I totally didn't hit the wrong button in the UI!!" Now, sure, I'd agree it should be harder to accidentally upgrade your PC. In particular for layman users. But I am generally skeptical that this is any more than just user error until proven otherwise. I have a Windows 7 PC I use regularly, I too get the upgrade prompts, but it hasn't upgraded itself just as one counterpoint. Someone needs to catch this on video. PS - I flagged this article on purpose because I don't consider a random Reddit thread to be a legitimate source.
- Eliezer 11y ago
  http://www.infoworld.com/article/3043526/microsoft-windows/microsoft-upgraded-users-to-windows-10-without-their-ok.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/3043526/microsoft-windows/m... It's a mainstream journalist so mileage might vary quite highly, but probably a little more trustworthy than a Reddit thread. At first they talk about the Reddit thread but then say they caught it on their own box.
- hayksaakian 11y ago
  Dark patterns http://darkpatterns.org http://darkpatterns.org "I clicked 'update security' and it gave me Windows 10!"
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    Microsoft did bundle the IE banner upgrade advertiser with security updates recently, and that was uncool/unacceptable. But I've never seen an update security button that actually INSTALLS Windows 10, and that is specifically what this complaint is about, the upgrade starting on its own. As I said if there is a bug that causes upgrades to occur without permission then people need to provide production steps. If there isn't a bug and Microsoft is doing it on purpose then why is it only impacting so few people? And how can we exclude user error?
    - hayksaakian 11y ago
      there's a distinction between user error and forced-on-purpose that's what I was getting at. For example, if there was some UI which says. "Get the Newest most Secure version of Windows (Download Now)" with some fine print which says you will be installing windows 10 as part of the security upgrade would that be considered 'user error' or user-hostile-design?
untog 11y ago
I use Windows Media Center on my machine so I'll be pretty irritated if it automatically upgrades - MS removed it in Windows 10.
- swampthinker 11y ago
  Why not VLC?
  - untog 11y ago
    I think you're thinking of Media Player, not Media Center. Media Center is a whole DVR package, consumes TV streams, TV guide data, recordings, can be connected to an Xbox 360... and so on.
    - swampthinker 11y ago
      Ah, gotcha.
  - Nadya 11y ago
    While it comes down to some level of personal preference - VLC is not faithful to source material in regards to color balance/contrast and this is apparent in scenes with shadows. VLC will have a "washed out" look. Some users prefer that "washed out" look though (for scenes with very heavy shadows it often does look aesthetically better) but others prefer faithfulness to the original. MPC-HC is more faithful to the original product - so I recommend it over VLC. Example: http://i.imgur.com/TJng0HW.jpg http://i.imgur.com/TJng0HW.jpg E: Not my image and I noticed the frame is different. I can assure you that the difference isn't due to being different frames. You'll find no shortage of better examples by searching "VLC washed out".
    - teraflop 11y ago
      This is an artifact of hardware YUV->RGB conversion, and can often be fixed by adjusting your video card settings. See e.g. https://wiki.videolan.org/VSG:Video:Color_washed_out/ https://wiki.videolan.org/VSG:Video:Color_washed_out/
davesque 11y ago
This happened to my co-worker just the other day. He develops native windows software so it was pretty annoying for him.
- Bedon292 11y ago
  Yeah, a couple of mine had it over the weekend too. One with good results, and doesn't care. The other with a couple fails in the house that had to spend time to reinstall from scratch.
api 11y ago
Now with more ads, spyware, constant logging of everything you do to Microsoft, and telemetry! No thanks. I guess MS wants to cede the entire high-end market to Apple and Linux and re-position themselves as a bargain basement low-end vendor of spyware ridden junk.
- largote 11y ago
  The high-end market is mostly gamers, which is 95%+ Windows.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    Microsoft's Windows Store/UWP push has scared some game developers, most notably causing Valve to make a Linux version of Steam and their own OS. A concerted effort by the games industry could see Windows's market share fall there.
    - shostack 11y ago
      Just got my new laptop with Win10 because I'm a gamer. That was pretty much the only reason. If they ever pull shit with Steam, are proven to have mishandled my data as part of the telemetry bullshit (well, the stuff I couldn't disable, because I spent half an hour trying to turn off all the various settings I could), or ever force Windows into a subscription model, I'm done with gaming on Windows for good and I'll suffer through the Linux gaming experience. Hopefully by that point there will be enough weight behind it to make switching an easy choice.
stcredzero 11y ago
Funny, I've been trying to get my Windows 7 laptop to take the upgrade, but it strangely won't.
- ocdtrekkie 11y ago
  Use a disc or the Media Creation Tool (which can directly start a Windows 10 install). Both methods are much more reliable than the Windows Update method.
mynameishere 11y ago
Here's the update: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3035583 https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3035583 ...that explains the Windows 10 update, but on my machine it just says "Install this update to resolve issues in Windows. blah blah blah" which is the same boilerplate they all use. The update size is uniquely given as a range 722 KB - 821 KB, which is probably a low estimate for an OS installer. So, no indication of the magnitude of this. Since it isn't a security update, anyone with a properly-configured system (IMO) shouldn't be bothered by it. Unless Microsoft updates it to a "security update". Which seems possible. The whole "auto update and restart" thing seemed like a potentially global-scale Therac-25 style bad idea when I first heard about it on Windows XP (or whenever). But it never happened--I guess not too many critical systems use Windows. Just millions of people losing millions of hours of productivity...
- ploxiln 11y ago
  That's just for the (non-removable) button in the taskbar. There are in fact a number of different updates related to the upgrade from windows 7 to windows 10.
cm2187 11y ago
I wonder if there are pages on reddit commenting a comment page from HN...
- skeletonjelly 11y ago
  https://reddit.com/r/hackernews https://reddit.com/r/hackernews
innertracks 11y ago
Dual booting with Fedora. I voluntarily upgraded the Win 7 partition to give it a whirl a while back. They said I would have 30 days to go back. Less than 24 hours later ... Nope. The only place I want Windows running on my personal hardware is in a VM. Done with them.
electrotype 11y ago
What do you think about this script on Voat? : https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/853510 https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/853510 I'm really curious to know your opinion Hacker News. Is this a good way to live with Windows 7 now? It seems to be open-source, easy to apply, it disables telemetry and Windows 10 crap. Any better alternatives?
- newman314 11y ago
  Shutup10 and Spybot Anti-beacon
  - electrotype 11y ago
    And why those?
    - daveguy 11y ago
      Shutup10 gets rid of the nagware, anti-beacon stops the phone home.
- 21 11y ago
  This seems to disable 51 updates from installing. That is quite a list. Some of the updates are blocked for other issues than privacy - one of them for example is a graphics stack security update which is blocked because it broke some older games. This reminds me of the older "registry cleaner" apps which are highly debatable.
- beeboop 11y ago
  Considering it stops updates to IE, I would never recommend that. I only ever use IE if I'm on some ancient (often government) website that doesn't seem to work in FF/Chrome, but even the default IE homepage (Is it still MSN?) has ads, which means a very real possibility of malware infections. The risk of being one TMZ page away from a malware infection is too much IMO.
IgorPartola 11y ago
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, Windows badly needs a better update mechanism. This has been a huge pain point for consumers for a long time, which often results in buying new hardware instead of updating the browser, etc. On the other hand I think this will drive people away from Windows and towards OS X and Ubuntu. Oh right, there is no downside to this!
- deadcast 11y ago
  Haha yeah! I really can't wait until I can do ALL of my day-to-day dev work on a Linux OS. Soon though... very soon...
  - mikegioia 11y ago
    Just out of curiosity, what dev work can't you do on Linux? I usually only hear that case for games or graphic/video editing.
    - deadcast 11y ago
      Haha actually that is the case! I need to use Unity and the latest Linux build[1] doesn't yet have all of the features like in the latest version 5.3.3 for Windows/OSX. It's still experimental but now that I think of it... I might not need all of the features in the latest release, hmmm. Also I need Remote Desktop Connection to do some contract work. I know other non-Windows remote desktop applications exist but I'm currently stuck with what their IT department will give me. :) EDIT: Thinking more about the remote desktop connection. I could just use a Windows VM on Linux. Dang, that never crossed my mind before. [1] http://blogs.unity3d.com/2015/08/26/unity-comes-to-linux-experimental-build-now-available/ http://blogs.unity3d.com/2015/08/26/unity-comes-to-linux-exp...
      - mikegioia 11y ago
        Haha, sorry about that. I forgot about game dev :O
robertelder 11y ago
Re-posting my comment from the other thread which didn't get as much attention: I spent about 3 hours this week doing tech support for my mom over the phone because of Windows 10's aggressive upgrading behaviour. I told her to keep her the best way to keep safe security wise is to make sure the os/browser is up to date, and because Windows 10 keeps asking to upgrade, she went ahead and did so. After upgrading to Windows 10, all network access (wired and wifi) stopped working completely. The worst part of this is that if you can't get internet, you can't even download new drivers to try and debug the problem. We tried a few things, and eventually just did a system restore back to Windows 8, but unfortunately, the system restore didn't work completely and there was more mucking around to try and get the computer into a bootable state. Then, last night, she said the heard the fan making a lot of noise, and looked down to see that Windows had gone ahead and started installing Windows 10 again. Fortunately, wired network access works now, but wifi is still broken. Hopefully Windows will push an update that fixes the wifi access soon. Also, there seems to be a number of people here commenting very strongly in favour of Microsoft, which I find very surprising. Perhaps people from MS trying to do damage control? Some people have doubted that Windows is doing this automatically, but during the above debacle, my mother actually spent time to make sure that 'Check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them' was selected. She even sent me a screenshot asking if this would prevent Windows 10 from installing. A few hours later she had Windows 10 again.
- robertelder 11y ago
  On that topic, she just said that she has spent that past 2 days trying to get wifi to work. Does anyone here have suggestions for fixing/debugging this? I haven't used windows in quite a while, so my approach is just to go into device manager and try to click on 'update driver', find and diagnose problems etc. Tried deleting and re-creating the wifi connection, re-entering the password. The wifi connection appears, and we can 'connect' to it, but it says 'no internet access' but wifi can't access 192.168.0.1 (the router). The wired connection works fine. I don't know much about Windows sub-systems. I'm pretty sure all the Windows 10 updates have downloaded and installed.
  - bbradley406 11y ago
martinald 11y ago
Sorry, why is this a big deal? We've completely accepted auto updates for browsers (chrme & firefox) - years ago. Obviously better, compatibility improves and security issues are easier to push out and fix. To me the browser is as important as the OS, I spend the vast majority of my time in it. Why should MSFT not do this? It's a free update. They're not charging for it. On many aspects, it's a lot better than Windows 7/8. Maybe not to everyone's taste, but Windows 7 is nearly 7 years old now. From what I can see it performs better on older hardware than W7. We accept that Android fragmentation is terrible and Google should be doing more to fix it. Yet it seems the complete opposite reaction when MSFT tries to fix their desktop fragmentation.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  > We've completely accepted auto updates for browsers (chrme & firefox) - years ago. I have not accepted auto updates that I can't turn off for anything, ever.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- sliverstorm 11y ago
  I sympathize with MSFT, but the main reason they shouldn't unilaterally force the issue is because it won't always work. The upgrade process is pretty reliable, but not completely, and there are all sorts of compatibility problems still lurking (Windows Media Center is gone, lots of hardware doesn't have Windows 10 drivers) Google is taking the longer view; they want to fix fragmentation, and are moving towards it step by step, improving matters on tomorrow's devices, without bricking today's devices. MSFT is trying to make it happen sooner by forcing the issue instead of gradually migrating.
- WireWrap 11y ago
  > We've completely accepted auto updates for browsers (chrme & firefox) - years ago. Enabling automatic updates from outside organizations SHOULD get you fired in any and every business where security is important. I've never seen it done in such environments, and certainly would never do it myself.
Laaw 11y ago
Good, Windows 7 is a security problem (or will be, soon).
- charonn0 11y ago
  In what way? I've been planning to remain on Windows 7 for the foreseeable future and 7's security wasn't really on my radar.
  - 21 11y ago
    Windows 8/10 has some newer security mitigations, so technically they are somewhat harder to exploit.
makecheck 11y ago
This is probably like having your car towed: technically there’s something that says they are allowed to do it but you sure as hell don’t expect it to happen, you don’t want it to happen, it will cost you time and money and at the wrong time it could really screw you. Thanks, Microsoft!
vc98mvco 11y ago
If you ever asked yourself how does one feel when assimilated by the Borg... now you know.
dageshi 11y ago
At some point recently windows update on windows 7 decided to change settings from "tell you about updates and you choose when to download and install them" to "I'll download everything and nag you to death with countdown timer until you update" The most infuriating thing about that being that if you turn your computer on in the morning from hibernation go make a coffee and get some breakfast, by the time you come back your computer has restarted (because apparently who cares you weren't logged in and your screen was still locked, fuck you we're forcing a restarting and you're losing any unsaved work, bad luck sucker!) I killed the windows update service permanently it infuriated me so much.
- jpindar 11y ago
  When you say "killed permanently", do you mean more than just disabling the service, and if so, what? I have it disabled but I don't trust Microsoft not to somehow override that.
  - dageshi 11y ago
    Just disabled the service. I do want the option to periodically turn it back on so anything more serious than that isn't on the cards for me.
  - yaegers 11y ago
    I also disabled the service "Windows Update" in services.msc. Interesting thign happened. I stopped the service but left it on "Automatic (Delayed Start)". Came back a while later and the service was magicall restarted. Could have been anticipated by me. So I stopped the service again and set it to "Manual". Came back a while later and, you guessed it, Windows Update service was restarted. So I now set it to "deactivated". That was yesterday. I am really curoous to see if it still comes back to life.
ck2 11y ago
GWX Control Panel http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ Solves all W10 upgrade worries.
- Terr_ 11y ago
  I'm not normally an open-source zealot, but I'd really like something a little more... auditable.
  - ck2 11y ago
    Doesn't seemed to be maintained anymore but https://github.com/rn10950/I-Dont-Want-Windows-10 https://github.com/rn10950/I-Dont-Want-Windows-10
BuckRogers 11y ago
MS is getting pretty draconian with the Windows 10 shtick. I'm not sure why there's such a push, just let people buy a Windows 10 computer when the Windows 7 machines fail. Fighting MS on this is a losing battle, all the workarounds are going to be a non-stop, futile exercise. Unless I have a specific needs for Windows, if this makes anyone uncomfortable to read (like myself)- I think this is the ideal time to jump on Mac, Linux Mint, Ubuntu Mate or Antergos.
- spriggan3 11y ago
  > MS is getting pretty draconian with the Windows 10 shtick They likely have a long term strategy around Windows 10, what it is I don't know but I know for a fact that it requires pushing W10 on as much PC as possible, whether the user wants it or not. I'm on W8. I will upgrade one day, I don't want to do it now (I'm working with an old soundcard that barely supports W8, so there is a risk with upgrading to 10), yet everyday I get a "Upgrade to 10" popup which almost tricked me into upgrading once. They are so aggressive about updating I fear this "free" upgrade might be a trap on the long run. I feel like I'm no longer in control of some software I've bought( yes, because licenses aren't free).
  - shostack 11y ago
    I recently bought a new Win10 laptop while giving up my Win7 desktop. I honestly wouldn't have if I thought I could continue getting the most out of my system (gaming and doing other fun things) well into the future. I'm pissed off beyond belief about the egregious privacy overreach, but realized that my info is already out there, so I just need to continue taking whatever precautions I normally do and pretend like all my info is public anyway. That said, I can only imagine that the long-term play is to one day give people a countdown on Windows 10 becoming a subscription, and you can either pay it or lose access to everything (or be severely crippled or something). That's the only angle I can think of, and it jives with their approach to Office and everything else. They know damn well that people don't always want something new (and often that is because of conflicting interests and them pushing crapware like the privacy stuff), so they need the ability to control whether that happens or not. I personally am holding out for now with Windows 10, but if they ever pull that move I will say to hell with it and fully switch to Ubuntu and do what I can in terms of gaming (maybe buy a Playstation).
throwaway_1012 11y ago
Agreed. Where do the shills like shanselman go when you actually have a genuine criticism?
- chris_wot 11y ago
  Dude. Personal attacks aren't welcome here. I think you know this, as you are using a throwaway account.
  - yarou 11y ago
    And yet the law is applied unfairly on HN. Dang warned me that I'd be banned if I ever insinuated that somebody was shilling, yet several people are openly doing it in this thread. I don't see their warnings. Sorry for continuing the derail, but it's downright infuriating when you see moderation not applied equally to everyone.
    - krapp 11y ago
      It's more likely that there isn't a moderator available to watch every thread 24/7.
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      And they are likely to be flagged.
    - teh_klev 11y ago
      And he also recommends that users email hn directly if they suspect shilling/sock puppetry etc instead of derailing the discussion with accusations: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11260725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11260725
    - marvy 11y ago
      I agree that having rules applied to you but not others can really rankle. But consider this: do you agree with the rule that "you should not accuse people of shilling"? That is, which world do you prefer: a world where this rule was enforced perfectly (maybe not by banning people, but perhaps a public scolding or something else sever enough to act as a deterrent), or a world where it was not enforced at all, so anyone who feels like it can accuse anyone at all of shilling (we don't need no stinkin' evidence!). (In my opinion, "only a shill would say that" does not count as evidence.) This is a genuine question: I really have no idea whether you're objecting just to the unfairness, or whether you think the rule itself is flawed. If unfairness, then I agree with you: it sucks. If you object to the rule itself, then I think you've already figured out that I think it's a good rule.
awqrre 11y ago
I hope that Microsoft don't survive their Windows 10 release...
- lubos 11y ago
  Windows 10 was their last release.
  - awqrre 11y ago
    I know that it was their latest release, if that's what you meant...
Kenji 11y ago
What a coincidence - 4 days ago I disabled auto updates on Windows 7 because it would force me to restart all the time. I'm glad I did that. Forcing Win7 to Win10 Upgrade? Disgusting practice by Windows, will switch to Unix-based systems asap.
foxyv 11y ago
Prompted by Windows 10 privacy issues, I switched to Mint on my laptop recently and was pleasantly surprised. I've been constantly trying to switch to Linux but having to revert because of driver incompatibility. That has completely changed in the past 3 years. It makes my laptop feel speedy again. Before it was really slow with Microsoft sitting on top of it. I recently slapped an SSD into it and it's even better. Turned a no starter laptop into a real machine. It's still not an operating system that can be used by new users, but I have a lot of fun with it. It helps a lot that Steam has a Linux client now and I don't play many big name titles. Windows 10 isn't that bad if you don't mind buying a new computer, but I think it may be the bane of people like my parents who use a computer for 10 years without upgrading. You would think that with the minimal changes to the Windows kernel that the driver support wouldn't be an issue. The invasive marketing and privacy violations aren't anything new. Just more so.
- mk4p 11y ago
  Re: Steam support in Linux, do you have any idea about VR support? I'm not a huge gamer and I'd consider ditching Windows over this incident, except that I want to play with my Vive when it gets here.
- mreams 11y ago
  I recently switched to Mint from Windows 8.1 and it's been shockingly easy. I run triple monitors at work and I was worried getting them all working was going to be a terrible experience. A coworker who runs Ubuntu offered to help me get it set up, but in the time it took for him to get a cup of coffee and come back, I had installed the driver Mint recommended and everything just worked. It runs great on my laptop too, so far I haven't had any driver issues. Not all of my steam games run under linux but quite a few of them do and the ones I've tried so far have run just as well as they do under windows.
daveguy 11y ago
I am thankful that a random Windows update broke some of our software a few weeks ago. It prompted me to disable all updates and allow only essential updates. Small business so I'm it for IT. Never heard of kbwhateveritis required to avoid the MS invasion. Thanks for breaking our system weeks ago MS!
37prime 11y ago
We’ve been getting a lot of calls from home clients since last Tuesday that their computer now runs Windows 10. There are still some printer and software issues, which were the reasons why they arestill running Windows 7.
ocdtrekkie 11y ago
This isn't news, and was announced _months_ in advance. Microsoft announced back in October that they'd upgrade Windows 10 to a "Recommended update" in February. http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/windows-10-upgrade-1.3296511 http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/windows-10-upgrade-1.32965... You can check in Windows Update whether or not to automatically apply Recommended updates the same way you apply Important updates. By default, it is checked. (By default, most users really _should_ upgrade to Windows 10.) But, as with all Microsoft things, people will flip out like this wasn't announced and they were totally blindsided because everything Microsoft does is totally evil.
lazzlazzlazz 11y ago
Upgrading to Windows 10 from 7 requires a single button click after opening the upgrade reminder in the task bar. Dismissing the upgrade reminder is impossible and requires a registry edit: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351 Microsoft is a disgusting company, and I hope they are fully aware how much social capital this has eroded.
xpaulbettsx 11y ago
As the lead developer of the Slack Windows app, this move is absolutely phenomenal for me. Win7 is a huge proportion of our support tickets and causes us no end of grief. To put what these Windows users are doing in perspective, Windows users are holding onto an OS that was released at the same time as OS X 10.6, and not only doing it, but demanding that developers support this version. If you asked any Cocoa developer to support Snow Leopard, they'd laugh you out of the room.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  So don't support Windows 7 then. But forcing upgrades which can lead to machines no longer functioning just means that person wipes the HDD and reinstalls Windows 7. You miss the fact that Windows 8 was such a botch job that most of us didn't start upgrading until Windows 8.1 - and this isn't just end users, but a hell of a lot of IT professionals. This never occurred on OS X.
- RDeckard 11y ago
  This isn't about you as the Slack Windows app developer.
- kiallmacinnes 11y ago
  Windows 8, and even Windows 8.1 were so utterly terrible its no wonder people are asking for windows 7 support. I'm betting 90%+ of business has stayed on 7, which often translates to individuals sticking with 7 too as it's what they know, and their IT dept / guy told them as much. Your blame is misplaced, these Windows users are doing nothing wrong. Microsoft did terrible releases for years, and is trying to recover from that mistake in a terrible way.
- Can_Not 11y ago
  Windows 7 support is a critical feature of slack for me. Every version of Windows after 7 is increasingly some kind of year 2000 era flip phone OS/dark age of computers BS. It's 10 steps forward, 1000 steps back. So what exactly do windows 7 users call in about? Is that because there is some major API difference between 7 and 8 or is does it represent people who buy computers less often?
ac29 11y ago
Is there any evidence this isn't just a bug? I admin several Win7 machines at work, and haven't seen this behavior on any of them. I didn't do anything to prevent automatic updates, or otherwise disable a path to Win10 (they all have the upgrade available). I can see how someone could accidentally install Win10, since windows update has it automatically selected, but I have yet to see a machine just restart itself and start installing Win10. The machines I have upgraded to Win10 took many clicks to actually install - I can't imagine Microsoft would intentionally let users skip the EULA at the very least. My gut says at least half the people have accidentally initiated this update and half are experiencing a bug -- my counter anecdata says this is NOT being pushed to all Win7 users with automatic updates enabled.
progman 11y ago
Calm down and relax! Microsoft knows better than you what is good for you ;-) Honestly, I ditched Windows since XP completely in favor of Linux, and it turned out to be a very good decision. MS' extremely unfriendly behavior to its customers is indication of desparation. WinPhone failed against iOS and Android, and PC purchases are shrinking continually. This means MS is shrinking continually, and they know it very well.
ionised 11y ago
Meet the new Microsoft, same as the old Microsoft. Seriously though, I hope they receive some major backlash for their behaviour over the last few months. It's incredibly aggressive and anti-consumer.
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  The old Microsoft would have been blasted into oblivion for doing this. For some reason, the "new Microsoft" is getting a free pass on behavior that would make Larry Ellison queasy.
pingec 11y ago
Today I woke up to this message on my Windows 8.1: http://i.imgur.com/4jvC8Q0.png http://i.imgur.com/4jvC8Q0.png They are not asking if I want to upgrade anymore, they are asking when I want to upgrade :/
xufi 11y ago
My logic: Time for another tool that goes deep in to the autorun.dll's and deletes the update prompt..... Oh wait...

260 points by mendelk 11y ago

acqq 11y ago

Maybe the way to block it is still: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351 Subkey: HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate DWORD value: DisableOSUpgrade = 1 The MSFT decision to perform forced updates is covered, for example, by Extreme Tech, February 2: "Look out: Microsoft shifts Windows 10 to ‘Recommended’ update, automatic download" http://www.extremetech.com/computing/222326-look-out-microsoft-shifts-windows-10-to-recommended-update-automatic-download http://www.extremetech.com/computing/222326-look-out-microso... I still believe they shouldn't have done that and I hope they get sued, heavily. Even if nobody dies, it's not OK. People had fully working computer and some of them wont. I have one such computer, which works on Windows 7 but doesn't on Windows 10.

justinclift 11y ago
I'm really hoping this crap badly affects the computers of some large justice/gov systems around the world (and/or the home computers of senior judges). That should get the right people involved for sticking the boots in.
- saidajigumi 11y ago
  If the IT staff for any large organization hasn't reviewed their inventory for affected systems and taken appropriate steps... that's outright incompetence. The writing has been on the wall for years and MS clearly documents unaffected systems (which includes Windows 7 Enterprise) and the required Group Policy to block the update[1]. [1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351
  - justinclift 11y ago
    Senior judges often don't operate that way. ;)
  - acqq 11y ago
    It's the same link I've already given above? And fascinatingly for you, "the writing was on the wall," and for some other commenters, it's unimaginable that it even happens. The perceptions of individuals are really hugely different.
    - tekklloneer 11y ago
      The difference in context is important. If you're working in IT, the writing was on the wall.
      - saidajigumi 11y ago
        This is exactly what I was getting at. For individuals and small organizations that often have no dedicated IT staff at all, they're the ones who'll get hit by Microsoft's forced-upgrade policy. But for any large organization with deployed Windows systems, that absolutely requires a managed Windows environment for an ocean of reasons. That means a competent Windows IT staff that handles all those things, including: security configuration and updates, controlled testing and release of updates, data retention and deletion policies, and on and on. For such shops, handling a change like this from Microsoft is already day-in-the-life. They already have to vet updates that may (and do) break business-critical software, while also ensuring that critical security updates are pushed out in a timely manner, etc.
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        There are literally millions of businesses with no IT department who bought consumer workstations or laptops running outside of a domain. There are millions of small businesses who literally don't have the expertise (or frankly, the need) to run a domain controller, and who certainly don't have enough money to justify purchasing a server and a Windows server license to do so. I'm genuinely curious as to whether I'll be down voted for this. It's completely the case, and I'm not asking not to be downvote do, but could folks at least explain why they don't like the comment?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - xjay 11y ago
    Not sure why someone would downvote this. Incompetence is pretty much a constant in IT in varying degrees, but I'd expect IT professionals to know about kb3080351. It's certainly not "news" given the media attention this subject has had ever since the "explosion" in June/July, when Microsoft chose to ignore that opt out setting, and even re-enabling telemetry prior to the upgrade. Edit: I can take a downvote defending a factually correct point, which was originally posted by saidajigumi (who was downvoted, which is why I posted my somewhat cheeky (in retrospect) response, and why I upvoted his post). I don't think most people disagree about it being unfortunate for normal users to be upgraded, but that wasn't what our comments were about.
- yardie 11y ago
  If the sys admin is doing there jobs correctly than system updates should be coming from a Windows update server using group policy rather than directly over the Internet. Nothing kills productivity like 1000 PCs trying to download the same files simultaneously.
  - acqq 11y ago
    What about a lot of computers which aren't in the possession of huge enterprises?
    - yardie 11y ago
      "the computers of some large justice/gov systems around the world"
      - acqq 11y ago
        For example, the computers important guys use at home, and somebody still dies because the computer isn't available when it should have been? I know, EULA. That EULA is a "wild card" is the main problem now.
        shiven 11y ago
        the computers important guys use at home Hillary's email-gate? So, no, important guys should not be using home computers that control/decide life or death situations.
        acqq 11y ago
        > Hillary's email-gate? I'm failing to see how the topic you mention helps to understand better the issue discussed here, that people can and should be able to depend on their own personal computers even for some life-influencing situations, and that it's bad (in my opinion) having EULAs which absolve in this case MSFT from absolutely everything. You really believe the proper use of personal computers is just for playing games? OK then, I don't, but no need for further discussion.
- kbart 11y ago
  "I'm really hoping this crap badly affects the computers of some large justice/gov systems around the world" Enterprise editions are not eligible for free upgrade to W10, so it's not likely. Also, there are additional safeguards, for example, you must get upgrades directly from MS, not WSUS (as per standard business practice). I'm sure MS thought that well and chose targets that are not likely to defend themselves in courts (home users and small business).
  - justinclift 11y ago
    It's unfortunate, but that's probably correct. :( Kind of wondering if this action by MS would count as abusive behaviour by a monopolist.
kozukumi 11y ago
Reading that KB article and Microsoft are being total dicks with such complicated instructions when they could have offered a download to a tiny program which simply allows the user to opt-out of all upgrade prompts for N months.

erickhill 11y ago

This upgrade occurred to my father's Dell laptop, which became hung during the install and essentially "locked" from his standpoint. (He lives in another state and I'm not able to assist his technical needs.) In any case, he took it to Office Max where he bought it and asked them to fix it. They did: they wiped his hard drive clean and installed Windows 10. With none of his files. Aggressive updating of an OS is not always a good thing, even with the best of intentions. It feels more like a desperate attempt to force some people into a world they don't want to be in so Customer Support can have a better time of it (I doubt customer support is having a better time of it right now).

acqq 11y ago
I also have a computer that Microsoft "decided" is "upgradeable" even if it's not. I guess they estimated that the total number of such computers is not going to cost them much. I do hope some class action suit happens. Only big companies install Enterprise versions of Windows, so a lot of users will have problems on the computers that otherwise normally worked. Even some that do very responsible work. And I hope that EULAs in which we give them our firstborns and become the organ donors are finally going to be burned in courts.
ZenoArrow 11y ago
Does your father still have the laptop? If so, ask him not to use it until you can get hold of it, and when you do I'd suggest running a Linux live distro on the machine with tools to recover deleted files, there's a decent chance you'll be able to recover many of them. I've had success with the tools included in Trinity Rescue Kit before, so I can recommend that to you. I've used it to recover a bunch of pictures that were lost with a drive reformat. http://trinityhome.org/Home/index.php?content=TRINITY_RESCUE_KIT____CPR_FOR_YOUR_COMPUTER&front_id=12&lang=en&locale=en http://trinityhome.org/Home/index.php?content=TRINITY_RESCUE...
- chinhodado 11y ago
  I agree. Depending on the size of the HDD and the amount of data lost, there's a good chance that some data can be recovered, especially small files like office documents. That said, it's a HDD wipe followed immediately by a full Windows installation, so there's a high chance a lot of the data were overwritten already.

deelowe 11y ago

uhh. Could this not set them up for a lawsuit? I mean, I assume and argument could be made that there's some liability involved in MS screws up the installation or if some program fails to continue to function. This should be fun to watch.

ourmandave 11y ago
I just got upgraded Saturday and the EULA specifically says that you can't bring a class action lawsuit against them. They want you to try arbitration for 60 days and if that doesn't work then you can try small claims. Yeah, sure. Anyway I had two problems afterwards. It logged me into a TEMP account so no config changes were saved and my files appeared to be all missing. They weren't, it just the shortcuts all point to the C:\users\TEMP\ directories. There's a few fixes for that one. Mine was checking the box that stopped OneNote from auto loading at start up. After a reboot the start menu went away. The logo button is there but the menu doesn't come up. I found a site with a few fixed and tried them all in succession. I don't know which one solved it because I only rebooted after doing all of them. So now I have 30 days to downgrade to Win 7 or forever hold my peace. <backspaced off rant here />
- DasIch 11y ago
  EULAs aren't legally binding in some countries because they're not disclosed before the sale. So this might protect them in the US but I could imagine it becoming a problem in other countries still.
- ubernostrum 11y ago
  I know clickwrap EULAs have been contentious, but can a EULA for something you didn't even ask for and didn't want in the first place be forced on you against your will?
  - ourmandave 11y ago
    I had the option to not accept the EULA. In that case I was then free to not install Windows 10 despite it "prepping my system for the update" for an hour. I figured any attempt at a roll back at that point would have been worse than just proceeding. =(

mchahn 11y ago

Wouldn't the automatic upgrade mean you didn't agree to any T&C?

krapp 11y ago
You did agree if you set Windows Update to automatically install updates. The upgrade to Window 10 is being treated as an "update".
- DannyBee 11y ago
  If they changed the T&C, that ain't gonna go well for them. (IE it probably won't be held to be consent)
- unclebucknasty 11y ago
  Unless the auto-update terms in Windows Update expressly state that using it means you agree to any future, unknown terms that may apply to those updates, then agreeing to automatic updates would not be sufficient. That is, unless the terms for Windows 10 are exactly the same as the version from which you are upgrading. That hardly seems likely, given that it is free and comes with new features, such as advertising, etc.
  - krapp 11y ago
    All I can tell you is that it's listed under optional updates, and it's automatically checked[0]. [0]https://imgur.com/wOO1jzz https://imgur.com/wOO1jzz
- scholia 11y ago
  It still brings up a EULA....
- chris_wot 11y ago
  In 2010 Microsoft's update of Security Essentials changed Windows update from manual to automatic. [1] With an installation base in the hundreds of millions, if even 1% of users didn't know about this and switched to manual update, then that's a hell of a lot of people who are affected. 1. http://www.infoworld.com/article/2627526/antimalware/warning--microsoft-security-essentials-installer-zaps-automatic-updates-setting.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2627526/antimalware/warning...

Someone1234 11y ago

Strangely nobody has ever caught this on video. Just a handful of anonymous people claiming "I totally didn't hit the wrong button in the UI!!" Now, sure, I'd agree it should be harder to accidentally upgrade your PC. In particular for layman users. But I am generally skeptical that this is any more than just user error until proven otherwise. I have a Windows 7 PC I use regularly, I too get the upgrade prompts, but it hasn't upgraded itself just as one counterpoint. Someone needs to catch this on video. PS - I flagged this article on purpose because I don't consider a random Reddit thread to be a legitimate source.

Eliezer 11y ago
http://www.infoworld.com/article/3043526/microsoft-windows/microsoft-upgraded-users-to-windows-10-without-their-ok.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/3043526/microsoft-windows/m... It's a mainstream journalist so mileage might vary quite highly, but probably a little more trustworthy than a Reddit thread. At first they talk about the Reddit thread but then say they caught it on their own box.
hayksaakian 11y ago
Dark patterns http://darkpatterns.org http://darkpatterns.org "I clicked 'update security' and it gave me Windows 10!"
- Someone1234 11y ago
  Microsoft did bundle the IE banner upgrade advertiser with security updates recently, and that was uncool/unacceptable. But I've never seen an update security button that actually INSTALLS Windows 10, and that is specifically what this complaint is about, the upgrade starting on its own. As I said if there is a bug that causes upgrades to occur without permission then people need to provide production steps. If there isn't a bug and Microsoft is doing it on purpose then why is it only impacting so few people? And how can we exclude user error?
  - hayksaakian 11y ago
    there's a distinction between user error and forced-on-purpose that's what I was getting at. For example, if there was some UI which says. "Get the Newest most Secure version of Windows (Download Now)" with some fine print which says you will be installing windows 10 as part of the security upgrade would that be considered 'user error' or user-hostile-design?

untog 11y ago

I use Windows Media Center on my machine so I'll be pretty irritated if it automatically upgrades - MS removed it in Windows 10.

swampthinker 11y ago
Why not VLC?
- untog 11y ago
  I think you're thinking of Media Player, not Media Center. Media Center is a whole DVR package, consumes TV streams, TV guide data, recordings, can be connected to an Xbox 360... and so on.
  - swampthinker 11y ago
    Ah, gotcha.
- Nadya 11y ago
  While it comes down to some level of personal preference - VLC is not faithful to source material in regards to color balance/contrast and this is apparent in scenes with shadows. VLC will have a "washed out" look. Some users prefer that "washed out" look though (for scenes with very heavy shadows it often does look aesthetically better) but others prefer faithfulness to the original. MPC-HC is more faithful to the original product - so I recommend it over VLC. Example: http://i.imgur.com/TJng0HW.jpg http://i.imgur.com/TJng0HW.jpg E: Not my image and I noticed the frame is different. I can assure you that the difference isn't due to being different frames. You'll find no shortage of better examples by searching "VLC washed out".
  - teraflop 11y ago
    This is an artifact of hardware YUV->RGB conversion, and can often be fixed by adjusting your video card settings. See e.g. https://wiki.videolan.org/VSG:Video:Color_washed_out/ https://wiki.videolan.org/VSG:Video:Color_washed_out/

davesque 11y ago

This happened to my co-worker just the other day. He develops native windows software so it was pretty annoying for him.

Bedon292 11y ago
Yeah, a couple of mine had it over the weekend too. One with good results, and doesn't care. The other with a couple fails in the house that had to spend time to reinstall from scratch.

api 11y ago

Now with more ads, spyware, constant logging of everything you do to Microsoft, and telemetry! No thanks. I guess MS wants to cede the entire high-end market to Apple and Linux and re-position themselves as a bargain basement low-end vendor of spyware ridden junk.

largote 11y ago
The high-end market is mostly gamers, which is 95%+ Windows.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  Microsoft's Windows Store/UWP push has scared some game developers, most notably causing Valve to make a Linux version of Steam and their own OS. A concerted effort by the games industry could see Windows's market share fall there.
  - shostack 11y ago
    Just got my new laptop with Win10 because I'm a gamer. That was pretty much the only reason. If they ever pull shit with Steam, are proven to have mishandled my data as part of the telemetry bullshit (well, the stuff I couldn't disable, because I spent half an hour trying to turn off all the various settings I could), or ever force Windows into a subscription model, I'm done with gaming on Windows for good and I'll suffer through the Linux gaming experience. Hopefully by that point there will be enough weight behind it to make switching an easy choice.

stcredzero 11y ago

Funny, I've been trying to get my Windows 7 laptop to take the upgrade, but it strangely won't.

ocdtrekkie 11y ago
Use a disc or the Media Creation Tool (which can directly start a Windows 10 install). Both methods are much more reliable than the Windows Update method.

mynameishere 11y ago

Here's the update: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3035583 https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3035583 ...that explains the Windows 10 update, but on my machine it just says "Install this update to resolve issues in Windows. blah blah blah" which is the same boilerplate they all use. The update size is uniquely given as a range 722 KB - 821 KB, which is probably a low estimate for an OS installer. So, no indication of the magnitude of this. Since it isn't a security update, anyone with a properly-configured system (IMO) shouldn't be bothered by it. Unless Microsoft updates it to a "security update". Which seems possible. The whole "auto update and restart" thing seemed like a potentially global-scale Therac-25 style bad idea when I first heard about it on Windows XP (or whenever). But it never happened--I guess not too many critical systems use Windows. Just millions of people losing millions of hours of productivity...

ploxiln 11y ago
That's just for the (non-removable) button in the taskbar. There are in fact a number of different updates related to the upgrade from windows 7 to windows 10.

cm2187 11y ago

I wonder if there are pages on reddit commenting a comment page from HN...

skeletonjelly 11y ago
https://reddit.com/r/hackernews https://reddit.com/r/hackernews

innertracks 11y ago

Dual booting with Fedora. I voluntarily upgraded the Win 7 partition to give it a whirl a while back. They said I would have 30 days to go back. Less than 24 hours later ... Nope. The only place I want Windows running on my personal hardware is in a VM. Done with them.

electrotype 11y ago

What do you think about this script on Voat? : https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/853510 https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/853510 I'm really curious to know your opinion Hacker News. Is this a good way to live with Windows 7 now? It seems to be open-source, easy to apply, it disables telemetry and Windows 10 crap. Any better alternatives?

newman314 11y ago
Shutup10 and Spybot Anti-beacon
- electrotype 11y ago
  And why those?
  - daveguy 11y ago
    Shutup10 gets rid of the nagware, anti-beacon stops the phone home.
21 11y ago
This seems to disable 51 updates from installing. That is quite a list. Some of the updates are blocked for other issues than privacy - one of them for example is a graphics stack security update which is blocked because it broke some older games. This reminds me of the older "registry cleaner" apps which are highly debatable.
beeboop 11y ago
Considering it stops updates to IE, I would never recommend that. I only ever use IE if I'm on some ancient (often government) website that doesn't seem to work in FF/Chrome, but even the default IE homepage (Is it still MSN?) has ads, which means a very real possibility of malware infections. The risk of being one TMZ page away from a malware infection is too much IMO.

IgorPartola 11y ago

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, Windows badly needs a better update mechanism. This has been a huge pain point for consumers for a long time, which often results in buying new hardware instead of updating the browser, etc. On the other hand I think this will drive people away from Windows and towards OS X and Ubuntu. Oh right, there is no downside to this!

deadcast 11y ago
Haha yeah! I really can't wait until I can do ALL of my day-to-day dev work on a Linux OS. Soon though... very soon...
- mikegioia 11y ago
  Just out of curiosity, what dev work can't you do on Linux? I usually only hear that case for games or graphic/video editing.
  - deadcast 11y ago
    Haha actually that is the case! I need to use Unity and the latest Linux build[1] doesn't yet have all of the features like in the latest version 5.3.3 for Windows/OSX. It's still experimental but now that I think of it... I might not need all of the features in the latest release, hmmm. Also I need Remote Desktop Connection to do some contract work. I know other non-Windows remote desktop applications exist but I'm currently stuck with what their IT department will give me. :) EDIT: Thinking more about the remote desktop connection. I could just use a Windows VM on Linux. Dang, that never crossed my mind before. [1] http://blogs.unity3d.com/2015/08/26/unity-comes-to-linux-experimental-build-now-available/ http://blogs.unity3d.com/2015/08/26/unity-comes-to-linux-exp...
    - mikegioia 11y ago
      Haha, sorry about that. I forgot about game dev :O

robertelder 11y ago

Re-posting my comment from the other thread which didn't get as much attention: I spent about 3 hours this week doing tech support for my mom over the phone because of Windows 10's aggressive upgrading behaviour. I told her to keep her the best way to keep safe security wise is to make sure the os/browser is up to date, and because Windows 10 keeps asking to upgrade, she went ahead and did so. After upgrading to Windows 10, all network access (wired and wifi) stopped working completely. The worst part of this is that if you can't get internet, you can't even download new drivers to try and debug the problem. We tried a few things, and eventually just did a system restore back to Windows 8, but unfortunately, the system restore didn't work completely and there was more mucking around to try and get the computer into a bootable state. Then, last night, she said the heard the fan making a lot of noise, and looked down to see that Windows had gone ahead and started installing Windows 10 again. Fortunately, wired network access works now, but wifi is still broken. Hopefully Windows will push an update that fixes the wifi access soon. Also, there seems to be a number of people here commenting very strongly in favour of Microsoft, which I find very surprising. Perhaps people from MS trying to do damage control? Some people have doubted that Windows is doing this automatically, but during the above debacle, my mother actually spent time to make sure that 'Check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them' was selected. She even sent me a screenshot asking if this would prevent Windows 10 from installing. A few hours later she had Windows 10 again.

robertelder 11y ago
On that topic, she just said that she has spent that past 2 days trying to get wifi to work. Does anyone here have suggestions for fixing/debugging this? I haven't used windows in quite a while, so my approach is just to go into device manager and try to click on 'update driver', find and diagnose problems etc. Tried deleting and re-creating the wifi connection, re-entering the password. The wifi connection appears, and we can 'connect' to it, but it says 'no internet access' but wifi can't access 192.168.0.1 (the router). The wired connection works fine. I don't know much about Windows sub-systems. I'm pretty sure all the Windows 10 updates have downloaded and installed.
- bbradley406 11y ago

martinald 11y ago

Sorry, why is this a big deal? We've completely accepted auto updates for browsers (chrme & firefox) - years ago. Obviously better, compatibility improves and security issues are easier to push out and fix. To me the browser is as important as the OS, I spend the vast majority of my time in it. Why should MSFT not do this? It's a free update. They're not charging for it. On many aspects, it's a lot better than Windows 7/8. Maybe not to everyone's taste, but Windows 7 is nearly 7 years old now. From what I can see it performs better on older hardware than W7. We accept that Android fragmentation is terrible and Google should be doing more to fix it. Yet it seems the complete opposite reaction when MSFT tries to fix their desktop fragmentation.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
> We've completely accepted auto updates for browsers (chrme & firefox) - years ago. I have not accepted auto updates that I can't turn off for anything, ever.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
sliverstorm 11y ago
I sympathize with MSFT, but the main reason they shouldn't unilaterally force the issue is because it won't always work. The upgrade process is pretty reliable, but not completely, and there are all sorts of compatibility problems still lurking (Windows Media Center is gone, lots of hardware doesn't have Windows 10 drivers) Google is taking the longer view; they want to fix fragmentation, and are moving towards it step by step, improving matters on tomorrow's devices, without bricking today's devices. MSFT is trying to make it happen sooner by forcing the issue instead of gradually migrating.
WireWrap 11y ago
> We've completely accepted auto updates for browsers (chrme & firefox) - years ago. Enabling automatic updates from outside organizations SHOULD get you fired in any and every business where security is important. I've never seen it done in such environments, and certainly would never do it myself.

Laaw 11y ago

Good, Windows 7 is a security problem (or will be, soon).

charonn0 11y ago
In what way? I've been planning to remain on Windows 7 for the foreseeable future and 7's security wasn't really on my radar.
- 21 11y ago
  Windows 8/10 has some newer security mitigations, so technically they are somewhat harder to exploit.

makecheck 11y ago

This is probably like having your car towed: technically there’s something that says they are allowed to do it but you sure as hell don’t expect it to happen, you don’t want it to happen, it will cost you time and money and at the wrong time it could really screw you. Thanks, Microsoft!

vc98mvco 11y ago

If you ever asked yourself how does one feel when assimilated by the Borg... now you know.

dageshi 11y ago

At some point recently windows update on windows 7 decided to change settings from "tell you about updates and you choose when to download and install them" to "I'll download everything and nag you to death with countdown timer until you update" The most infuriating thing about that being that if you turn your computer on in the morning from hibernation go make a coffee and get some breakfast, by the time you come back your computer has restarted (because apparently who cares you weren't logged in and your screen was still locked, fuck you we're forcing a restarting and you're losing any unsaved work, bad luck sucker!) I killed the windows update service permanently it infuriated me so much.

jpindar 11y ago
When you say "killed permanently", do you mean more than just disabling the service, and if so, what? I have it disabled but I don't trust Microsoft not to somehow override that.
- dageshi 11y ago
  Just disabled the service. I do want the option to periodically turn it back on so anything more serious than that isn't on the cards for me.
- yaegers 11y ago
  I also disabled the service "Windows Update" in services.msc. Interesting thign happened. I stopped the service but left it on "Automatic (Delayed Start)". Came back a while later and the service was magicall restarted. Could have been anticipated by me. So I stopped the service again and set it to "Manual". Came back a while later and, you guessed it, Windows Update service was restarted. So I now set it to "deactivated". That was yesterday. I am really curoous to see if it still comes back to life.

ck2 11y ago

GWX Control Panel http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ Solves all W10 upgrade worries.

Terr_ 11y ago
I'm not normally an open-source zealot, but I'd really like something a little more... auditable.
- ck2 11y ago
  Doesn't seemed to be maintained anymore but https://github.com/rn10950/I-Dont-Want-Windows-10 https://github.com/rn10950/I-Dont-Want-Windows-10

BuckRogers 11y ago

MS is getting pretty draconian with the Windows 10 shtick. I'm not sure why there's such a push, just let people buy a Windows 10 computer when the Windows 7 machines fail. Fighting MS on this is a losing battle, all the workarounds are going to be a non-stop, futile exercise. Unless I have a specific needs for Windows, if this makes anyone uncomfortable to read (like myself)- I think this is the ideal time to jump on Mac, Linux Mint, Ubuntu Mate or Antergos.

spriggan3 11y ago
> MS is getting pretty draconian with the Windows 10 shtick They likely have a long term strategy around Windows 10, what it is I don't know but I know for a fact that it requires pushing W10 on as much PC as possible, whether the user wants it or not. I'm on W8. I will upgrade one day, I don't want to do it now (I'm working with an old soundcard that barely supports W8, so there is a risk with upgrading to 10), yet everyday I get a "Upgrade to 10" popup which almost tricked me into upgrading once. They are so aggressive about updating I fear this "free" upgrade might be a trap on the long run. I feel like I'm no longer in control of some software I've bought( yes, because licenses aren't free).
- shostack 11y ago
  I recently bought a new Win10 laptop while giving up my Win7 desktop. I honestly wouldn't have if I thought I could continue getting the most out of my system (gaming and doing other fun things) well into the future. I'm pissed off beyond belief about the egregious privacy overreach, but realized that my info is already out there, so I just need to continue taking whatever precautions I normally do and pretend like all my info is public anyway. That said, I can only imagine that the long-term play is to one day give people a countdown on Windows 10 becoming a subscription, and you can either pay it or lose access to everything (or be severely crippled or something). That's the only angle I can think of, and it jives with their approach to Office and everything else. They know damn well that people don't always want something new (and often that is because of conflicting interests and them pushing crapware like the privacy stuff), so they need the ability to control whether that happens or not. I personally am holding out for now with Windows 10, but if they ever pull that move I will say to hell with it and fully switch to Ubuntu and do what I can in terms of gaming (maybe buy a Playstation).

throwaway_1012 11y ago

Agreed. Where do the shills like shanselman go when you actually have a genuine criticism?

chris_wot 11y ago
Dude. Personal attacks aren't welcome here. I think you know this, as you are using a throwaway account.
- yarou 11y ago
  And yet the law is applied unfairly on HN. Dang warned me that I'd be banned if I ever insinuated that somebody was shilling, yet several people are openly doing it in this thread. I don't see their warnings. Sorry for continuing the derail, but it's downright infuriating when you see moderation not applied equally to everyone.
  - krapp 11y ago
    It's more likely that there isn't a moderator available to watch every thread 24/7.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    And they are likely to be flagged.
  - teh_klev 11y ago
    And he also recommends that users email hn directly if they suspect shilling/sock puppetry etc instead of derailing the discussion with accusations: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11260725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11260725
  - marvy 11y ago
    I agree that having rules applied to you but not others can really rankle. But consider this: do you agree with the rule that "you should not accuse people of shilling"? That is, which world do you prefer: a world where this rule was enforced perfectly (maybe not by banning people, but perhaps a public scolding or something else sever enough to act as a deterrent), or a world where it was not enforced at all, so anyone who feels like it can accuse anyone at all of shilling (we don't need no stinkin' evidence!). (In my opinion, "only a shill would say that" does not count as evidence.) This is a genuine question: I really have no idea whether you're objecting just to the unfairness, or whether you think the rule itself is flawed. If unfairness, then I agree with you: it sucks. If you object to the rule itself, then I think you've already figured out that I think it's a good rule.

awqrre 11y ago

I hope that Microsoft don't survive their Windows 10 release...

lubos 11y ago
Windows 10 was their last release.
- awqrre 11y ago
  I know that it was their latest release, if that's what you meant...

Kenji 11y ago

What a coincidence - 4 days ago I disabled auto updates on Windows 7 because it would force me to restart all the time. I'm glad I did that. Forcing Win7 to Win10 Upgrade? Disgusting practice by Windows, will switch to Unix-based systems asap.

foxyv 11y ago

Prompted by Windows 10 privacy issues, I switched to Mint on my laptop recently and was pleasantly surprised. I've been constantly trying to switch to Linux but having to revert because of driver incompatibility. That has completely changed in the past 3 years. It makes my laptop feel speedy again. Before it was really slow with Microsoft sitting on top of it. I recently slapped an SSD into it and it's even better. Turned a no starter laptop into a real machine. It's still not an operating system that can be used by new users, but I have a lot of fun with it. It helps a lot that Steam has a Linux client now and I don't play many big name titles. Windows 10 isn't that bad if you don't mind buying a new computer, but I think it may be the bane of people like my parents who use a computer for 10 years without upgrading. You would think that with the minimal changes to the Windows kernel that the driver support wouldn't be an issue. The invasive marketing and privacy violations aren't anything new. Just more so.

mk4p 11y ago
Re: Steam support in Linux, do you have any idea about VR support? I'm not a huge gamer and I'd consider ditching Windows over this incident, except that I want to play with my Vive when it gets here.
mreams 11y ago
I recently switched to Mint from Windows 8.1 and it's been shockingly easy. I run triple monitors at work and I was worried getting them all working was going to be a terrible experience. A coworker who runs Ubuntu offered to help me get it set up, but in the time it took for him to get a cup of coffee and come back, I had installed the driver Mint recommended and everything just worked. It runs great on my laptop too, so far I haven't had any driver issues. Not all of my steam games run under linux but quite a few of them do and the ones I've tried so far have run just as well as they do under windows.

daveguy 11y ago

I am thankful that a random Windows update broke some of our software a few weeks ago. It prompted me to disable all updates and allow only essential updates. Small business so I'm it for IT. Never heard of kbwhateveritis required to avoid the MS invasion. Thanks for breaking our system weeks ago MS!

37prime 11y ago

We’ve been getting a lot of calls from home clients since last Tuesday that their computer now runs Windows 10. There are still some printer and software issues, which were the reasons why they arestill running Windows 7.

ocdtrekkie 11y ago

This isn't news, and was announced _months_ in advance. Microsoft announced back in October that they'd upgrade Windows 10 to a "Recommended update" in February. http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/windows-10-upgrade-1.3296511 http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/windows-10-upgrade-1.32965... You can check in Windows Update whether or not to automatically apply Recommended updates the same way you apply Important updates. By default, it is checked. (By default, most users really _should_ upgrade to Windows 10.) But, as with all Microsoft things, people will flip out like this wasn't announced and they were totally blindsided because everything Microsoft does is totally evil.

lazzlazzlazz 11y ago

Upgrading to Windows 10 from 7 requires a single button click after opening the upgrade reminder in the task bar. Dismissing the upgrade reminder is impossible and requires a registry edit: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351 Microsoft is a disgusting company, and I hope they are fully aware how much social capital this has eroded.

xpaulbettsx 11y ago

As the lead developer of the Slack Windows app, this move is absolutely phenomenal for me. Win7 is a huge proportion of our support tickets and causes us no end of grief. To put what these Windows users are doing in perspective, Windows users are holding onto an OS that was released at the same time as OS X 10.6, and not only doing it, but demanding that developers support this version. If you asked any Cocoa developer to support Snow Leopard, they'd laugh you out of the room.

chris_wot 11y ago
So don't support Windows 7 then. But forcing upgrades which can lead to machines no longer functioning just means that person wipes the HDD and reinstalls Windows 7. You miss the fact that Windows 8 was such a botch job that most of us didn't start upgrading until Windows 8.1 - and this isn't just end users, but a hell of a lot of IT professionals. This never occurred on OS X.
RDeckard 11y ago
This isn't about you as the Slack Windows app developer.
kiallmacinnes 11y ago
Windows 8, and even Windows 8.1 were so utterly terrible its no wonder people are asking for windows 7 support. I'm betting 90%+ of business has stayed on 7, which often translates to individuals sticking with 7 too as it's what they know, and their IT dept / guy told them as much. Your blame is misplaced, these Windows users are doing nothing wrong. Microsoft did terrible releases for years, and is trying to recover from that mistake in a terrible way.
Can_Not 11y ago
Windows 7 support is a critical feature of slack for me. Every version of Windows after 7 is increasingly some kind of year 2000 era flip phone OS/dark age of computers BS. It's 10 steps forward, 1000 steps back. So what exactly do windows 7 users call in about? Is that because there is some major API difference between 7 and 8 or is does it represent people who buy computers less often?

ac29 11y ago

Is there any evidence this isn't just a bug? I admin several Win7 machines at work, and haven't seen this behavior on any of them. I didn't do anything to prevent automatic updates, or otherwise disable a path to Win10 (they all have the upgrade available). I can see how someone could accidentally install Win10, since windows update has it automatically selected, but I have yet to see a machine just restart itself and start installing Win10. The machines I have upgraded to Win10 took many clicks to actually install - I can't imagine Microsoft would intentionally let users skip the EULA at the very least. My gut says at least half the people have accidentally initiated this update and half are experiencing a bug -- my counter anecdata says this is NOT being pushed to all Win7 users with automatic updates enabled.

progman 11y ago

Calm down and relax! Microsoft knows better than you what is good for you ;-) Honestly, I ditched Windows since XP completely in favor of Linux, and it turned out to be a very good decision. MS' extremely unfriendly behavior to its customers is indication of desparation. WinPhone failed against iOS and Android, and PC purchases are shrinking continually. This means MS is shrinking continually, and they know it very well.

ionised 11y ago

Meet the new Microsoft, same as the old Microsoft. Seriously though, I hope they receive some major backlash for their behaviour over the last few months. It's incredibly aggressive and anti-consumer.

CamperBob2 11y ago
The old Microsoft would have been blasted into oblivion for doing this. For some reason, the "new Microsoft" is getting a free pass on behavior that would make Larry Ellison queasy.

pingec 11y ago

Today I woke up to this message on my Windows 8.1: http://i.imgur.com/4jvC8Q0.png http://i.imgur.com/4jvC8Q0.png They are not asking if I want to upgrade anymore, they are asking when I want to upgrade :/

xufi 11y ago

My logic: Time for another tool that goes deep in to the autorun.dll's and deletes the update prompt..... Oh wait...