10 ms·

Ditching tmux

kough 11y ago
Broken on safari on ios9: can see maybe 20px of the article at the bottom of the screen, while a sticky header with the author's face fills the rest.
- liveoneggs 11y ago
  I'm pretty sure that's the important part
- kleptako 11y ago
  Completely broken using noscript this is all i can see, no matter where i scroll: https://i.imgur.com/8WAJEmq.png https://i.imgur.com/8WAJEmq.png
  - vacri 11y ago
    Works fine for me with noscript, with the 'temporarily allow top-level domains' option set.
TY 11y ago
TLDR: a neovim user discovers that he can use it as terminal multiplexer instead of constantly switching between neovim and tmux.
- baldfat 11y ago
  I fail to see what he is saying is more efficient by cutting off tmux? When switching from tmux to another pane seems to be exactly the same as switching inside of neovim? I am missing the whole point, and missing something. PS I don't use neovim (Proudly)
  - deanstag 11y ago
    Just to know. why did you mention proudly? I don't use it either, but i thought it had gotten pretty stable over time and has very few issues. What problems do you see using neovim?
    - baldfat 11y ago
      I just don't like the way this fork happened. I used Vim for 20 years and it really made me mad how Vim was treated. It reminded me of the FFmpeg vs Libav. Most of the claims from neovim seem over the top and off from factual i.e. vim base code is so bad it is unreliable. > Every other aspect of Vim is irredeemable. The codebase is atrocious. The plugin API is cumbersome and restrictive. The dev community is apathetic. The benevolent dictator is averse to change. There is no chance of fixing these problems. http://usevim.com/2015/01/16/neovim-better/ http://usevim.com/2015/01/16/neovim-better/
      - sipior 11y ago
        Most of the claims from neovim seem over the top and off from factual i.e. vim base code is so bad it is unreliable. To be fair, the one example you give is from a person not directly (to my knowledge) associated with the neovim fork. There was more than a bit of discontent, I think, at the slow rate of progress Vim was making compared to more modern options. I've been using Vim about as long as you have, and I have to say that I welcome the options neovim brings to my favourite editor. I suppose it's impossible to have any fork of such a well-worn, fundamental piece of software without some feeling the need to be partisan. I have to say, though, that Mr Arruda has regularly conducted himself with a great deal of courtesy and professionalism, at least in every instance I have seen. I'm quite happy to be throwing his team a few bucks every month.
        baldfat 11y ago
        Well when they raised money and just went their own way flaming vim and its maintainer seemed pretty childish. https://github.com/neovim/neovim/wiki/Introduction#motivation https://github.com/neovim/neovim/wiki/Introduction#motivatio... Here was Bram Moolenaar (Vim foudner/Maintainer) The guy didn't take money for the job but asked people to donate money to African Orphans and they do a fundraiser to cut the man off? "It's going to be an awful lot of work, with the result that not all systems will be supported, new bugs introduced and what's the gain for the end user exactly? Total refactoring is not a solution. It's much better to improve what we have. Perhaps with some small refactorings specifically aimed at making Vim work better for users." https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/vim_dev/x0BF9Y0Uby8 https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/vim_dev/x0BF9Y0Uby...
dominotw 11y ago
i tried this with neovim for a while but went back to tmux due to lag in neovim's terminal emulation.
DominoTree 11y ago
I've been doing this for a while, and the only real issue is remembering not to open nested neovim sessions when I want to edit a file :P
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
keda 11y ago
does this work in remote ssh session?
- arcaster 11y ago
  I don't think so. This is why I primarily still use tmux, although I've recently been messing around with i3 and AwesomeWM on my linux box, which is superior to tmux. DTVM seems to be gaining ground, it's just not quite as feature rich as tmux.
- saidajigumi 11y ago
  That depends on your goal. If you just want to log in and work remotely in neovim, sure. But neovim won't provide tmux's feature of being able to reattach to a session in the face of unreliable connections. That said, most of the time I use tmux is on localhost as a tiling window manager for terminal-based work. In those cases, it's very rare that I use tmux session recovery, so there's merit to simplifying the stack by dropping tmux. Even if you did adopt the "nvim multiplexer" approach for local work, you could still use it remotely inside of one simple tmux pane. (i.e. ignore all features of tmux except for session management.)
joaomsa 11y ago
Does neovim have session persistence for those embedded terminals? Can you share a session with other people as easily for pair programming/debugging? I'm not familiar with neovim's terminal emulator. What happens when I press CtrlX-CtrlE? Is it similar to a normal terminal with readline set to vi binding?
- saidajigumi 11y ago
  No, if you're after session persistence or sharing ala tmux, that's right in the sweet spot of what tmux does well and neovim's :term mode isn't designed form. It's quite possible that we'll see those features in the future, what with neovim's separate frontend vs. backend architecture.
  - vegabook 11y ago
    > No, ... Immediate deal-killer. If your workflow involves a) more than one computer and b) usage of the terminal (surely describing most developers), then tmux attach/detach is easily one of the most awesome things since vim itself.
    - saidajigumi 11y ago
      This depends a lot on your workflow. Sometimes I've lived by screen/tmux session management, but more recently I almost never need it. Yet tmux+vim is a vital daily part of my workflow. In its current role, tmux serves primarily as a window manager. It's worth noting that I'm using other means to keep my state synced between my working environments (place) or between working sessions (time). Version control is part of that (such as private git branches), good environment automation is part (via Vagrant + provisioning, packagers like npm, etc.), and automated vim session save/restore is another part of that. For example, if a vim dies or if I quit, my entire session state is completely restored for that project when I start vim in that directory again. That all provides quite a lot of what I'd traditionally depend on tmux for.
falcolas 11y ago
Simply replacing tmux with the same inside NeoVim doesn't feel like a win to me. Tmux is very powerful (providing for decent nesting with remote servers), and until NeoVim reaches Emacs levels of configurability and extensibility, I don't see it being a viable replacement anytime soon.
- dguaraglia 11y ago
  Yeah, I can't see how I'd replace persistent sessions on remote servers with this. I could see it working as a quick and dirty way to switch between my editor and command line, but I've always been a bit skeptical of terminals running under editors (they tend to lock up the whole process the moment you have heavy logging.)
andrewstuart2 11y ago
I discovered i3 and the concept of tiling window managers a few years ago and have never looked back. A new terminal or browser window is always a keystroke away, as is swapping between "pages" of windows. It's all navigable completely by keyboard, so my vim/i3/dmenu editing environment has me very rarely touching the mouse. As an added bonus I get to use every part of the screen by default. No wasted space. It's also pretty trivial to get some nice window arrangements so that I can quickly move to relevant parts of the code for whatever I'm working on. I guess the major trade-off is that there aren't any menus for accessing functionality, but I personally consider that a win because I end up being forced to learn how to manage everything at the lowest config level, usually editing text files. This makes it vastly easier to script things when I realize I've been making the same changes over and over. So if you like tmux and you're on Linux, I'd strongly recommend giving i3, awesome, or some other TWM a try.
- howeyc 11y ago
  If you're really looking to do something strange, you could ditch the mouse all togeter. That's what I've done on one of my laptops. For some reason when i first set it up the touchpad didn't work, and need some driver or something. Instead of fixing it like a normal person, I said to me self "just go with it". I found a browser (qutebrowser) that works by using just the keyboard, and use tmux/vim and other terminal apps for everything else. The scrolling in the browser highlighted weird stuff (since the mouse cursor was always in the middle of the screen), but once I found a way to set the cursor to the top-left of the screen when X starts (a command in .xinitrc), no more issue. I still have a minor issue every once and while. Sometimes i'll browse around and see a code snippit, or just some text I'd like to copy-paste, or a link with a url I'd like to copy and I'm not sure how. That's really been my only downside of going mouse-free.
  - branchless 11y ago
    I use keyboard as much as possible but find for things like flash one needs to click. Would you mind sharing your xinit snippit to set cursor location? BTW my browsing experience with keyboard only is made largely painless by chrome with vimium. You can also select and yank text with this.
zeveb 11y ago
At some point, neovim is going to have every feature of emacs, only with fewer decades of testing and written in a worse language.
- sevensor 11y ago
  I came here to say the same. And me a vim user with high hopes for neovim. Maybe it's time to give evil-mode another try.
  - jballanc 11y ago
    I've used Vim exclusively for 12 years. Over those 12 years I tried switching to Emacs no fewer than 5 times. The longest it stuck was 3 months, and I still felt a huge weight lift from my shoulders when I switched back to Vim. 6 months ago I switched to spacemacs and haven't looked back since.
    - ymse 11y ago
      My story is similar to yours. Spacemacs really is the best of both worlds: the Emacs ecosystem of packages combined with good defaults and without carpal-tunnel inducing keybindings.
    - sevensor 11y ago
      Thank you for this! I'm trying it now. It feels much more familiar than my previous attempts at using evil-mode, and seems to work nicely even in a terminal window.
      - sillysaurus3 11y ago
        I just tried evil mode a few days ago and felt blown away by it. May I ask what problems you ran into? I believe you, and I'm trying to find out what to watch out for.
        sevensor 11y ago
vbezhenar 11y ago
My main complain about tmux is that it messes with my terminal emulator scroll buffer. I like to use a mouse to scroll my terminal emulator. For example I can do `cat file` and then scroll around. If file is huge, `less` is better, of course, but for most things terminal scrolling is perfect. But `tmux` and `screen` completely ruin that experience. I know that they have their own scrollbuffer and scroll mode and all that, but I've found that perfect user experience for me is to blend GUI approach and text mode approach instead of replacing it.
- ymse 11y ago
  I don't find <prefix>-PgUp a lot harder than Shift-PgUp. The tmux buffer also has the benefit that you can search, copy, write to file and more. Oh, and I think tmux' "mouse on" lets you wheel-scroll the buffer, although I haven't used it.
- rhinoceraptor 11y ago
  I have my tmux set up as you describe, it's easy to do. In newer versions of tmux, you just add 'set -g mouse on' to your ~/.tmux.conf. I also have copy mode set to use vi keybindings, and I can yank to the system clipboard.
  - vbezhenar 11y ago
    Thanks, I'll look into it.
    - rhinoceraptor 11y ago
      Here's my ~/.tmux.conf if you're interested: https://github.com/rhinoceraptor/dotfiles/blob/master/tmux/.tmux.conf https://github.com/rhinoceraptor/dotfiles/blob/master/tmux/....
      - guiambros 11y ago
        +1. Scrollback used to be one of my gripes as well, but it now works well under tmux. I like to have a single key binding to toggle mouse on/off, so I found a clever (although hacky) way reading someone's .tmux.conf, and have used it ever since: # toggle mouse bind m run "cut -c3- ~/.tmux.conf | sh -s toggle_mouse" # toggle_mouse() { # old=$(tmux show -g -w | grep mode-mouse | cut -d' ' -f2) # new="" # # if [ "$old" = "on" ] ; then # new="off" # else # new="on" # fi # # tmux set -g mode-mouse $new \;\ # set -g mouse-resize-pane $new \;\ # set -g mouse-select-pane $new \;\ # set -g mouse-select-window $new \;\ # display "mouse: $new" # }
cm3 11y ago
If your primary use wasn't the background/attach feature, sure this will work as will many other mechanism. I know like many users my main motivation is not losing the terminal session when (not if) X or Wayland crashes.
- na85 11y ago
  My thoughts exactly. In fact I'd go so far as to say if you aren't using it for the attach/detach functionality why on earth would you bother? I'm not seeing how using tmux beats "Just open another terminal" which is the absolute minimum. Surely anyone doing dev work is using an editor that supports tabbing and in-editor consoles a la emacs.
  - carussell 11y ago
    Most of the other features that both screen and tmux include give me reason enough not to use either one. If you're just in it for the detachability, see dtach. <http://dtach.sourceforge.net/> http://dtach.sourceforge.net/> Some people like split panes, though.
    - cm3 11y ago
      tmux and screen make it comfortable to manage multiple sessions. That's why I don't just use dtach. Having one session with multiple buffers/windows is easier to manage than one file for each dtach'ed program. Basically, I'd have to script my way out of dtach's bare bones session management feature set. I don't really use tmux's or screen's split functionality, and if I did I'd probably start using http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/ http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/. Hmm, abduco seems like dtach on stereoids and is thankfully separate from dvtm and required for detaching dvtwm sessions. Maybe I should give that a try.
      - qu4z-2 11y ago
        I would recommend abduco+dvtm. That's where I've ended up. Then again, I'm biased in favor of suckless-brand things. I also somehow configured abduco to always start a dvtm instance inside it, so there's no pain from it being two separate programs.
cm3 11y ago
while we're talking about tmux, when will it gain screen's flow control (not tty flow control you can enable/disable), so that something like 'tar xfv linux-4.5.tar.xz' won't lock up tmux anymore. This works smoothly in screen but breaks tmux.
- farrelle25 11y ago
  Adding/adjusting these two variables in ~/.tmux.conf should stop TMUX lockups and control the flow: c0-change-trigger c0-change-interval edit: you probably know those 2 already so maybe they don't control large tar.xz files
julienchastang 11y ago
Here is my set up: I run emacs in server mode doing most of my work w/ an X11 emacs client, and eshell when I need a Unix prompt. As much as I like eshell there are many scenarios where I prefer zsh so I run zsh in tmux and invoke a non-X11 emacs (-nw) client within tmux to go back and forth (copy/paste whatnot) between emacs and zsh. Repetitive strain problems aside, I am generally pretty happy with this setup.
baldfat 11y ago
Not posting to cause drama BUT: > I case you don’t know neovim yet, it is an awesome fork of vim with several enhancements, such as built-in terminal emulator and asynchronous jobs. Vim has had asynchronous jobs before the fork. For example: https://github.com/tpope/vim-dispatch https://github.com/tpope/vim-dispatch built-in terminal emulator: Why just do this in vim - noremap <C-d> :sh<cr> <C-d> goes into and out between vim and your shell. What am I missing?
- zokier 11y ago
  A shell and a terminal are two quite different things. Try running a ncurses application with :sh
  - baldfat 11y ago
    I do ranger.py
- _JamesA_ 11y ago
  Why make a new key map when <C-z> is already available? What am I missing?
  - baldfat 11y ago
    Why <C-z> <C-d> when <C-d> does both? To each their own.
placeybordeaux 11y ago
This is very specific to people that already know and use vim, but I agree. Once I learned about neoterm I have switched over to an instance of neovim defaulted to term://zsh as my initial shell.
bch 11y ago
I saw a neovim video[0] where the operator opened a terminal and then launched emacs in it. Can one now (by keyboard only), copy/cut from the emacs terminal and paste into the neovim screen? That's one of the nice things about tmux, where I can run a cmd, copy from the backbuffer, and paste into an editor to (e.g.) mail off the context for a bug report. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbMVj9XSUo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbMVj9XSUo
- justinmk 11y ago
  Yes, that's always been a feature of :term in Neovim.
klinquist 11y ago
I'm significantly more productive with tmux + autossh. I autossh into a single server from which I have about 30 SSH sessions open - organized by environment (tmux sessions) and host (tmux windows). The windows have the name of the host. I rarely use my number keys - I just shift-left arrow or shift-right arrow to the previous/next window since jumping around is so quick. tmux-resurrect is awesome too - if the server I autossh into reboots, I can just restore all my sessions and windows and it re-sshs into the 30 hosts.
- nilkn 11y ago
  I have almost this exact same setup, except I use tmuxinator instead of tmux-resurrect. Honestly tmux-resurrect looks like it's the better solution; I just haven't bothered trying it out.
teddyknox 11y ago
Turns out you can use the same navigational keybindings to move around nvim splits and tmux splits, so that moving between the two programs is a sinch. This is what I use. https://robots.thoughtbot.com/seamlessly-navigate-vim-and-tmux-splits https://robots.thoughtbot.com/seamlessly-navigate-vim-and-tm...
voltagex_ 11y ago
I still have problems with the ssh agent when running tmux. No amount of hacks or symlinking sockets everywhere seems to give me a reliable (re)connection to the agent when detaching and reattaching to tmux across machines and ssh sessions.
jhallenworld 11y ago
JOE has pop-up terminal emulators: hit F1 - F4 to bring up one of four terminals, or flip between them (like Alt-Fn on Linux). It's nice, you don't have to exit the editor to read a man page. But there is more... JOE tracks the current directory of each of these emulators, so they are great for navigation: use cd and grep to find something to edit, then type 'joe filename' within the terminal emulator to replace the terminal emulator with the requested file. Also you can play games with regions and the compiler and grep parsers. This, from one of the terminal emulators: parse grep -n main *.c will find all of the .c files containing main, mark the grep command's output as a region, and use the editor's grep parser to load the list of file locations into the editor. So then you can step forwards or backwards through the locations with Esc = and Esc - as you would step through compiler error messages. (Use 'parserr' instead of 'parse' to parse compiler error messages: type 'parserr make') You can control the editor by writing programs which send editor macros to JOE: just echo Esc { macro } to the editor. JOE runs a shell startup file /etc/joe/shell.sh to provide some aliases. 'joe' and 'parse' are two of the aliases from shell.sh.
- CaptSpify 11y ago
  link?
  - jhallenworld 11y ago
    https://sourceforge.net/p/joe-editor/wiki/Home/ https://sourceforge.net/p/joe-editor/wiki/Home/ This part of the manual talks about the shell windows: https://sourceforge.net/p/joe-editor/mercurial/ci/default/tree/docs/man.md#pop-up-shell-windows https://sourceforge.net/p/joe-editor/mercurial/ci/default/tr... (BTW, I recently found an issue with installation on OS X: use "LC_ALL=C make install" to make sed happy.)
joelbondurant 11y ago
I fail to see the connection between tmux and vim. Vim is one of a billion programs i use with tmux inside terminator.
mobystrip 11y ago
Emux a nice switch imho. Better integration with the editor.
badosu 11y ago
I highly recommend using dvtm instead: http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/ http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/ And for session management, abduco: http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/abduco/ http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/abduco/
- chriswarbo 11y ago
  Personally I've had this combo segfault a couple of times in the past year or so, which never happened with screen or tmux. I've been using dvtm+dtach for a while now and had no problems. abduco also used to leave cruft around if it didn't shut down cleanly (e.g. laptop battery cutting out), which would confuse it when next starting up (trying to attach to a non-existent session). I saw some entries in the changelog which might have fixed this, but I've had no problems from dtach so not felt a reason to switch back.
  - martanne 11y ago
    As the primary author of these tools, please report core dumps/stack traces of the crashes (if you get hold of them). At least for my use cases, the current git versions seem to be stable ... Having said that, if I ever find the time I would like to overhaul/replace dvtm's terminal emulation component.
    - chriswarbo 11y ago
      First of all, thanks for DVTM, it's really nice. The crashes I was referring to were seg faults, which happened seemingly at random, several months apart. If I had more useful/reproducible info I would've filed a bug report :( The unclean shutdown issue that I saw in the changelog seems to be https://github.com/martanne/abduco/issues/5 https://github.com/martanne/abduco/issues/5 Before switching to dtach I was working around this by deleting stale sockets in my .xsession file: http://chriswarbo.net/git/warbo-dotfiles/commits/b182acaa1dc89a62eac31a1f0acff5278ee45771/diff-to-619b494b4c2e5f0ca694e863ada16ed57dfa9702.html#xsession http://chriswarbo.net/git/warbo-dotfiles/commits/b182acaa1dc...
zobzu 11y ago
the amount of levels of stacking for work organization is pretty scary. Its as if people spend more time trying to organize than actually working. I use tmux for simple stuff that needs a "detached terminal", not work organization. multiple terms, the wm and the editor buffers is already more than i'd ever ask for.
sunkencity 11y ago
All that trouble for nothing. I use xterm and control-z, and fg, one terminal window. If I need to work from more computers than one I use a screen instance that I can detach/attach from the computer happen to be at.
- a-saleh 11y ago
  Why screen and not tmux? Just curious.
  - sunkencity 11y ago
    it's bog-standard and readily available on most platforms. no real need for split screen, either fullscreen web on one workspace and terminal on other or side by side if working on computer with big screen.
trungaczne 11y ago
I have been using i3, tmux, vim's conque, ... haven't used neovim's conque yet so I can't comment on it, but here's my experience: * i3 is fantastic for 90% of your tiling window activities: stacking a LOT of windows on the same screen without any problem, its different modes (stacked, windowed, tabbed) are ingenious, it makes it possible to use minimal number of keystrokes to navigate between any arbitrary windows. The ugly side is that once you've set up your screen with the windows you want, you probably want to keep them like that, while i3 allows you to shift your windows around it gets a bit messy (how do I group these windows together under a different layout?). Also, on Ubuntu, i3 doesn't have the nice "stuff" of other DE, the worst part is that windows don't carry over gnome themes properly and there are bugs with some applications (chrome). Also integrating an "Open another terminal in the current directory" is a headache. * tmux is great for everything terminal related, it's not as good as i3, but it does its job well (splitting, windowing, saving sessions). It has a few interesting features that makes the move to i3 difficult, such as 1) opening another terminal in the same directory 2) scrollback with vim keys (so that you can run a command, do a reverse search on the output, and copy part of it out) and finally 3) sending the same keystroke to multiple terminals (handy when ssh'ing to multiple hosts for testing). The downsides is that tmux doesn't seem to handle the console all that well (editing in the middle of a bash command kind of breaks on my machine) and it can be annoying to make a script that works with tmux (since it breaks the process parent/child tree, this probably won't affect anyone though) * I have tried vim's conque plugin, but the terminal freezes from time to time. I'm not sure if neovim's plugin is gonna have the same issue. Overall I don't think there's a single piece of software that handles everything completely satisfactory yet. i've been satisfied with tmux for a long time, now making the move to i3 (it's everything I never knew I wanted), despite its several issues I think I'm gonna stick with it for a long time.
- fmoralesc 11y ago
  neovim's terminal is not a plugin, is baked in and is a proper terminal emulator, based on the libvterm library. So, it shouldn't have the same issue, it makes use of the async features in neovim.
  - trungaczne 11y ago
plugnburn 11y ago
I don't usually use in-terminal tiling managers, but when I do, I use dvtm.
krinchan 11y ago
I can't give up tmux because it's what we use to remote pair at work. At the very least our team worked out some good keyboard shortcuts: C-a leaders with caps mapped onto Ctrl, VIM/Tmux setups lifted from YADR so when you hit C-h/j/k/l you can jump through VIM windows and tmux panes seamlessly, etc. With some work tmux is awesome and we mostly just copy/paste links over hipchat if we're looking at documentation.
kohlerm 11y ago
I also tried neovims terminal support and I must say I really like it. The reason is that you have a consistent way to mark and copy text from your terminal buffer(it basically works like in the editor). I had some other issues with nvim, which why I'm not yet settled on using it. I also like abduco for connection management.I'm currently using i3wm and a combination of some other tools such as parcelite to make sure that the copy and paste buffers are synchronized. I'm still looking for a simple way to be able to select something from the terminal buffer and copy it to somewhere else without the need of some complicated key bindings (e.g. not using screen or tmux). neovims terminal works well for this use case. I don't have the need to run a complicated dev enviroment using only terminal windows on some remote server. I would rather run i3wm and use NX to connect (its fast enough) if I had that use case.

kough 11y ago

Broken on safari on ios9: can see maybe 20px of the article at the bottom of the screen, while a sticky header with the author's face fills the rest.

liveoneggs 11y ago
I'm pretty sure that's the important part
kleptako 11y ago
Completely broken using noscript this is all i can see, no matter where i scroll: https://i.imgur.com/8WAJEmq.png https://i.imgur.com/8WAJEmq.png
- vacri 11y ago
  Works fine for me with noscript, with the 'temporarily allow top-level domains' option set.

TY 11y ago

TLDR: a neovim user discovers that he can use it as terminal multiplexer instead of constantly switching between neovim and tmux.

baldfat 11y ago
I fail to see what he is saying is more efficient by cutting off tmux? When switching from tmux to another pane seems to be exactly the same as switching inside of neovim? I am missing the whole point, and missing something. PS I don't use neovim (Proudly)
- deanstag 11y ago
  Just to know. why did you mention proudly? I don't use it either, but i thought it had gotten pretty stable over time and has very few issues. What problems do you see using neovim?
  - baldfat 11y ago
    I just don't like the way this fork happened. I used Vim for 20 years and it really made me mad how Vim was treated. It reminded me of the FFmpeg vs Libav. Most of the claims from neovim seem over the top and off from factual i.e. vim base code is so bad it is unreliable. > Every other aspect of Vim is irredeemable. The codebase is atrocious. The plugin API is cumbersome and restrictive. The dev community is apathetic. The benevolent dictator is averse to change. There is no chance of fixing these problems. http://usevim.com/2015/01/16/neovim-better/ http://usevim.com/2015/01/16/neovim-better/
    - sipior 11y ago
      Most of the claims from neovim seem over the top and off from factual i.e. vim base code is so bad it is unreliable. To be fair, the one example you give is from a person not directly (to my knowledge) associated with the neovim fork. There was more than a bit of discontent, I think, at the slow rate of progress Vim was making compared to more modern options. I've been using Vim about as long as you have, and I have to say that I welcome the options neovim brings to my favourite editor. I suppose it's impossible to have any fork of such a well-worn, fundamental piece of software without some feeling the need to be partisan. I have to say, though, that Mr Arruda has regularly conducted himself with a great deal of courtesy and professionalism, at least in every instance I have seen. I'm quite happy to be throwing his team a few bucks every month.
      - baldfat 11y ago
        Well when they raised money and just went their own way flaming vim and its maintainer seemed pretty childish. https://github.com/neovim/neovim/wiki/Introduction#motivation https://github.com/neovim/neovim/wiki/Introduction#motivatio... Here was Bram Moolenaar (Vim foudner/Maintainer) The guy didn't take money for the job but asked people to donate money to African Orphans and they do a fundraiser to cut the man off? "It's going to be an awful lot of work, with the result that not all systems will be supported, new bugs introduced and what's the gain for the end user exactly? Total refactoring is not a solution. It's much better to improve what we have. Perhaps with some small refactorings specifically aimed at making Vim work better for users." https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/vim_dev/x0BF9Y0Uby8 https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/vim_dev/x0BF9Y0Uby...

dominotw 11y ago

i tried this with neovim for a while but went back to tmux due to lag in neovim's terminal emulation.

DominoTree 11y ago

I've been doing this for a while, and the only real issue is remembering not to open nested neovim sessions when I want to edit a file :P

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

keda 11y ago

does this work in remote ssh session?

arcaster 11y ago
I don't think so. This is why I primarily still use tmux, although I've recently been messing around with i3 and AwesomeWM on my linux box, which is superior to tmux. DTVM seems to be gaining ground, it's just not quite as feature rich as tmux.
saidajigumi 11y ago
That depends on your goal. If you just want to log in and work remotely in neovim, sure. But neovim won't provide tmux's feature of being able to reattach to a session in the face of unreliable connections. That said, most of the time I use tmux is on localhost as a tiling window manager for terminal-based work. In those cases, it's very rare that I use tmux session recovery, so there's merit to simplifying the stack by dropping tmux. Even if you did adopt the "nvim multiplexer" approach for local work, you could still use it remotely inside of one simple tmux pane. (i.e. ignore all features of tmux except for session management.)

joaomsa 11y ago

Does neovim have session persistence for those embedded terminals? Can you share a session with other people as easily for pair programming/debugging? I'm not familiar with neovim's terminal emulator. What happens when I press CtrlX-CtrlE? Is it similar to a normal terminal with readline set to vi binding?

saidajigumi 11y ago
No, if you're after session persistence or sharing ala tmux, that's right in the sweet spot of what tmux does well and neovim's :term mode isn't designed form. It's quite possible that we'll see those features in the future, what with neovim's separate frontend vs. backend architecture.
- vegabook 11y ago
  > No, ... Immediate deal-killer. If your workflow involves a) more than one computer and b) usage of the terminal (surely describing most developers), then tmux attach/detach is easily one of the most awesome things since vim itself.
  - saidajigumi 11y ago
    This depends a lot on your workflow. Sometimes I've lived by screen/tmux session management, but more recently I almost never need it. Yet tmux+vim is a vital daily part of my workflow. In its current role, tmux serves primarily as a window manager. It's worth noting that I'm using other means to keep my state synced between my working environments (place) or between working sessions (time). Version control is part of that (such as private git branches), good environment automation is part (via Vagrant + provisioning, packagers like npm, etc.), and automated vim session save/restore is another part of that. For example, if a vim dies or if I quit, my entire session state is completely restored for that project when I start vim in that directory again. That all provides quite a lot of what I'd traditionally depend on tmux for.

falcolas 11y ago

Simply replacing tmux with the same inside NeoVim doesn't feel like a win to me. Tmux is very powerful (providing for decent nesting with remote servers), and until NeoVim reaches Emacs levels of configurability and extensibility, I don't see it being a viable replacement anytime soon.

dguaraglia 11y ago
Yeah, I can't see how I'd replace persistent sessions on remote servers with this. I could see it working as a quick and dirty way to switch between my editor and command line, but I've always been a bit skeptical of terminals running under editors (they tend to lock up the whole process the moment you have heavy logging.)

andrewstuart2 11y ago

I discovered i3 and the concept of tiling window managers a few years ago and have never looked back. A new terminal or browser window is always a keystroke away, as is swapping between "pages" of windows. It's all navigable completely by keyboard, so my vim/i3/dmenu editing environment has me very rarely touching the mouse. As an added bonus I get to use every part of the screen by default. No wasted space. It's also pretty trivial to get some nice window arrangements so that I can quickly move to relevant parts of the code for whatever I'm working on. I guess the major trade-off is that there aren't any menus for accessing functionality, but I personally consider that a win because I end up being forced to learn how to manage everything at the lowest config level, usually editing text files. This makes it vastly easier to script things when I realize I've been making the same changes over and over. So if you like tmux and you're on Linux, I'd strongly recommend giving i3, awesome, or some other TWM a try.

howeyc 11y ago
If you're really looking to do something strange, you could ditch the mouse all togeter. That's what I've done on one of my laptops. For some reason when i first set it up the touchpad didn't work, and need some driver or something. Instead of fixing it like a normal person, I said to me self "just go with it". I found a browser (qutebrowser) that works by using just the keyboard, and use tmux/vim and other terminal apps for everything else. The scrolling in the browser highlighted weird stuff (since the mouse cursor was always in the middle of the screen), but once I found a way to set the cursor to the top-left of the screen when X starts (a command in .xinitrc), no more issue. I still have a minor issue every once and while. Sometimes i'll browse around and see a code snippit, or just some text I'd like to copy-paste, or a link with a url I'd like to copy and I'm not sure how. That's really been my only downside of going mouse-free.
- branchless 11y ago
  I use keyboard as much as possible but find for things like flash one needs to click. Would you mind sharing your xinit snippit to set cursor location? BTW my browsing experience with keyboard only is made largely painless by chrome with vimium. You can also select and yank text with this.

zeveb 11y ago

At some point, neovim is going to have every feature of emacs, only with fewer decades of testing and written in a worse language.

sevensor 11y ago
I came here to say the same. And me a vim user with high hopes for neovim. Maybe it's time to give evil-mode another try.
- jballanc 11y ago
  I've used Vim exclusively for 12 years. Over those 12 years I tried switching to Emacs no fewer than 5 times. The longest it stuck was 3 months, and I still felt a huge weight lift from my shoulders when I switched back to Vim. 6 months ago I switched to spacemacs and haven't looked back since.
  - ymse 11y ago
    My story is similar to yours. Spacemacs really is the best of both worlds: the Emacs ecosystem of packages combined with good defaults and without carpal-tunnel inducing keybindings.
  - sevensor 11y ago
    Thank you for this! I'm trying it now. It feels much more familiar than my previous attempts at using evil-mode, and seems to work nicely even in a terminal window.
    - sillysaurus3 11y ago
      I just tried evil mode a few days ago and felt blown away by it. May I ask what problems you ran into? I believe you, and I'm trying to find out what to watch out for.
      - sevensor 11y ago

vbezhenar 11y ago

My main complain about tmux is that it messes with my terminal emulator scroll buffer. I like to use a mouse to scroll my terminal emulator. For example I can do `cat file` and then scroll around. If file is huge, `less` is better, of course, but for most things terminal scrolling is perfect. But `tmux` and `screen` completely ruin that experience. I know that they have their own scrollbuffer and scroll mode and all that, but I've found that perfect user experience for me is to blend GUI approach and text mode approach instead of replacing it.

ymse 11y ago
I don't find <prefix>-PgUp a lot harder than Shift-PgUp. The tmux buffer also has the benefit that you can search, copy, write to file and more. Oh, and I think tmux' "mouse on" lets you wheel-scroll the buffer, although I haven't used it.
rhinoceraptor 11y ago
I have my tmux set up as you describe, it's easy to do. In newer versions of tmux, you just add 'set -g mouse on' to your ~/.tmux.conf. I also have copy mode set to use vi keybindings, and I can yank to the system clipboard.
- vbezhenar 11y ago
  Thanks, I'll look into it.
  - rhinoceraptor 11y ago
    Here's my ~/.tmux.conf if you're interested: https://github.com/rhinoceraptor/dotfiles/blob/master/tmux/.tmux.conf https://github.com/rhinoceraptor/dotfiles/blob/master/tmux/....
    - guiambros 11y ago
      +1. Scrollback used to be one of my gripes as well, but it now works well under tmux. I like to have a single key binding to toggle mouse on/off, so I found a clever (although hacky) way reading someone's .tmux.conf, and have used it ever since: # toggle mouse bind m run "cut -c3- ~/.tmux.conf | sh -s toggle_mouse" # toggle_mouse() { # old=$(tmux show -g -w | grep mode-mouse | cut -d' ' -f2) # new="" # # if [ "$old" = "on" ] ; then # new="off" # else # new="on" # fi # # tmux set -g mode-mouse $new \;\ # set -g mouse-resize-pane $new \;\ # set -g mouse-select-pane $new \;\ # set -g mouse-select-window $new \;\ # display "mouse: $new" # }

cm3 11y ago

If your primary use wasn't the background/attach feature, sure this will work as will many other mechanism. I know like many users my main motivation is not losing the terminal session when (not if) X or Wayland crashes.

na85 11y ago
My thoughts exactly. In fact I'd go so far as to say if you aren't using it for the attach/detach functionality why on earth would you bother? I'm not seeing how using tmux beats "Just open another terminal" which is the absolute minimum. Surely anyone doing dev work is using an editor that supports tabbing and in-editor consoles a la emacs.
- carussell 11y ago
  Most of the other features that both screen and tmux include give me reason enough not to use either one. If you're just in it for the detachability, see dtach. <http://dtach.sourceforge.net/> http://dtach.sourceforge.net/> Some people like split panes, though.
  - cm3 11y ago
    tmux and screen make it comfortable to manage multiple sessions. That's why I don't just use dtach. Having one session with multiple buffers/windows is easier to manage than one file for each dtach'ed program. Basically, I'd have to script my way out of dtach's bare bones session management feature set. I don't really use tmux's or screen's split functionality, and if I did I'd probably start using http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/ http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/. Hmm, abduco seems like dtach on stereoids and is thankfully separate from dvtm and required for detaching dvtwm sessions. Maybe I should give that a try.
    - qu4z-2 11y ago
      I would recommend abduco+dvtm. That's where I've ended up. Then again, I'm biased in favor of suckless-brand things. I also somehow configured abduco to always start a dvtm instance inside it, so there's no pain from it being two separate programs.

cm3 11y ago

while we're talking about tmux, when will it gain screen's flow control (not tty flow control you can enable/disable), so that something like 'tar xfv linux-4.5.tar.xz' won't lock up tmux anymore. This works smoothly in screen but breaks tmux.

farrelle25 11y ago
Adding/adjusting these two variables in ~/.tmux.conf should stop TMUX lockups and control the flow: c0-change-trigger c0-change-interval edit: you probably know those 2 already so maybe they don't control large tar.xz files

julienchastang 11y ago

Here is my set up: I run emacs in server mode doing most of my work w/ an X11 emacs client, and eshell when I need a Unix prompt. As much as I like eshell there are many scenarios where I prefer zsh so I run zsh in tmux and invoke a non-X11 emacs (-nw) client within tmux to go back and forth (copy/paste whatnot) between emacs and zsh. Repetitive strain problems aside, I am generally pretty happy with this setup.

baldfat 11y ago

Not posting to cause drama BUT: > I case you don’t know neovim yet, it is an awesome fork of vim with several enhancements, such as built-in terminal emulator and asynchronous jobs. Vim has had asynchronous jobs before the fork. For example: https://github.com/tpope/vim-dispatch https://github.com/tpope/vim-dispatch built-in terminal emulator: Why just do this in vim - noremap <C-d> :sh<cr> <C-d> goes into and out between vim and your shell. What am I missing?

zokier 11y ago
A shell and a terminal are two quite different things. Try running a ncurses application with :sh
- baldfat 11y ago
  I do ranger.py
_JamesA_ 11y ago
Why make a new key map when <C-z> is already available? What am I missing?
- baldfat 11y ago
  Why <C-z> <C-d> when <C-d> does both? To each their own.

placeybordeaux 11y ago

This is very specific to people that already know and use vim, but I agree. Once I learned about neoterm I have switched over to an instance of neovim defaulted to term://zsh as my initial shell.

bch 11y ago

I saw a neovim video[0] where the operator opened a terminal and then launched emacs in it. Can one now (by keyboard only), copy/cut from the emacs terminal and paste into the neovim screen? That's one of the nice things about tmux, where I can run a cmd, copy from the backbuffer, and paste into an editor to (e.g.) mail off the context for a bug report. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbMVj9XSUo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbMVj9XSUo

justinmk 11y ago
Yes, that's always been a feature of :term in Neovim.

klinquist 11y ago

I'm significantly more productive with tmux + autossh. I autossh into a single server from which I have about 30 SSH sessions open - organized by environment (tmux sessions) and host (tmux windows). The windows have the name of the host. I rarely use my number keys - I just shift-left arrow or shift-right arrow to the previous/next window since jumping around is so quick. tmux-resurrect is awesome too - if the server I autossh into reboots, I can just restore all my sessions and windows and it re-sshs into the 30 hosts.

nilkn 11y ago
I have almost this exact same setup, except I use tmuxinator instead of tmux-resurrect. Honestly tmux-resurrect looks like it's the better solution; I just haven't bothered trying it out.

teddyknox 11y ago

Turns out you can use the same navigational keybindings to move around nvim splits and tmux splits, so that moving between the two programs is a sinch. This is what I use. https://robots.thoughtbot.com/seamlessly-navigate-vim-and-tmux-splits https://robots.thoughtbot.com/seamlessly-navigate-vim-and-tm...

voltagex_ 11y ago

I still have problems with the ssh agent when running tmux. No amount of hacks or symlinking sockets everywhere seems to give me a reliable (re)connection to the agent when detaching and reattaching to tmux across machines and ssh sessions.

jhallenworld 11y ago

JOE has pop-up terminal emulators: hit F1 - F4 to bring up one of four terminals, or flip between them (like Alt-Fn on Linux). It's nice, you don't have to exit the editor to read a man page. But there is more... JOE tracks the current directory of each of these emulators, so they are great for navigation: use cd and grep to find something to edit, then type 'joe filename' within the terminal emulator to replace the terminal emulator with the requested file. Also you can play games with regions and the compiler and grep parsers. This, from one of the terminal emulators: parse grep -n main *.c will find all of the .c files containing main, mark the grep command's output as a region, and use the editor's grep parser to load the list of file locations into the editor. So then you can step forwards or backwards through the locations with Esc = and Esc - as you would step through compiler error messages. (Use 'parserr' instead of 'parse' to parse compiler error messages: type 'parserr make') You can control the editor by writing programs which send editor macros to JOE: just echo Esc { macro } to the editor. JOE runs a shell startup file /etc/joe/shell.sh to provide some aliases. 'joe' and 'parse' are two of the aliases from shell.sh.

CaptSpify 11y ago
link?
- jhallenworld 11y ago
  https://sourceforge.net/p/joe-editor/wiki/Home/ https://sourceforge.net/p/joe-editor/wiki/Home/ This part of the manual talks about the shell windows: https://sourceforge.net/p/joe-editor/mercurial/ci/default/tree/docs/man.md#pop-up-shell-windows https://sourceforge.net/p/joe-editor/mercurial/ci/default/tr... (BTW, I recently found an issue with installation on OS X: use "LC_ALL=C make install" to make sed happy.)

joelbondurant 11y ago

I fail to see the connection between tmux and vim. Vim is one of a billion programs i use with tmux inside terminator.

mobystrip 11y ago

Emux a nice switch imho. Better integration with the editor.

badosu 11y ago

I highly recommend using dvtm instead: http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/ http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/ And for session management, abduco: http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/abduco/ http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/abduco/

chriswarbo 11y ago
Personally I've had this combo segfault a couple of times in the past year or so, which never happened with screen or tmux. I've been using dvtm+dtach for a while now and had no problems. abduco also used to leave cruft around if it didn't shut down cleanly (e.g. laptop battery cutting out), which would confuse it when next starting up (trying to attach to a non-existent session). I saw some entries in the changelog which might have fixed this, but I've had no problems from dtach so not felt a reason to switch back.
- martanne 11y ago
  As the primary author of these tools, please report core dumps/stack traces of the crashes (if you get hold of them). At least for my use cases, the current git versions seem to be stable ... Having said that, if I ever find the time I would like to overhaul/replace dvtm's terminal emulation component.
  - chriswarbo 11y ago
    First of all, thanks for DVTM, it's really nice. The crashes I was referring to were seg faults, which happened seemingly at random, several months apart. If I had more useful/reproducible info I would've filed a bug report :( The unclean shutdown issue that I saw in the changelog seems to be https://github.com/martanne/abduco/issues/5 https://github.com/martanne/abduco/issues/5 Before switching to dtach I was working around this by deleting stale sockets in my .xsession file: http://chriswarbo.net/git/warbo-dotfiles/commits/b182acaa1dc89a62eac31a1f0acff5278ee45771/diff-to-619b494b4c2e5f0ca694e863ada16ed57dfa9702.html#xsession http://chriswarbo.net/git/warbo-dotfiles/commits/b182acaa1dc...

zobzu 11y ago

the amount of levels of stacking for work organization is pretty scary. Its as if people spend more time trying to organize than actually working. I use tmux for simple stuff that needs a "detached terminal", not work organization. multiple terms, the wm and the editor buffers is already more than i'd ever ask for.

sunkencity 11y ago

All that trouble for nothing. I use xterm and control-z, and fg, one terminal window. If I need to work from more computers than one I use a screen instance that I can detach/attach from the computer happen to be at.

a-saleh 11y ago
Why screen and not tmux? Just curious.
- sunkencity 11y ago
  it's bog-standard and readily available on most platforms. no real need for split screen, either fullscreen web on one workspace and terminal on other or side by side if working on computer with big screen.

trungaczne 11y ago

I have been using i3, tmux, vim's conque, ... haven't used neovim's conque yet so I can't comment on it, but here's my experience: * i3 is fantastic for 90% of your tiling window activities: stacking a LOT of windows on the same screen without any problem, its different modes (stacked, windowed, tabbed) are ingenious, it makes it possible to use minimal number of keystrokes to navigate between any arbitrary windows. The ugly side is that once you've set up your screen with the windows you want, you probably want to keep them like that, while i3 allows you to shift your windows around it gets a bit messy (how do I group these windows together under a different layout?). Also, on Ubuntu, i3 doesn't have the nice "stuff" of other DE, the worst part is that windows don't carry over gnome themes properly and there are bugs with some applications (chrome). Also integrating an "Open another terminal in the current directory" is a headache. * tmux is great for everything terminal related, it's not as good as i3, but it does its job well (splitting, windowing, saving sessions). It has a few interesting features that makes the move to i3 difficult, such as 1) opening another terminal in the same directory 2) scrollback with vim keys (so that you can run a command, do a reverse search on the output, and copy part of it out) and finally 3) sending the same keystroke to multiple terminals (handy when ssh'ing to multiple hosts for testing). The downsides is that tmux doesn't seem to handle the console all that well (editing in the middle of a bash command kind of breaks on my machine) and it can be annoying to make a script that works with tmux (since it breaks the process parent/child tree, this probably won't affect anyone though) * I have tried vim's conque plugin, but the terminal freezes from time to time. I'm not sure if neovim's plugin is gonna have the same issue. Overall I don't think there's a single piece of software that handles everything completely satisfactory yet. i've been satisfied with tmux for a long time, now making the move to i3 (it's everything I never knew I wanted), despite its several issues I think I'm gonna stick with it for a long time.

fmoralesc 11y ago
neovim's terminal is not a plugin, is baked in and is a proper terminal emulator, based on the libvterm library. So, it shouldn't have the same issue, it makes use of the async features in neovim.
- trungaczne 11y ago

plugnburn 11y ago

I don't usually use in-terminal tiling managers, but when I do, I use dvtm.

krinchan 11y ago

I can't give up tmux because it's what we use to remote pair at work. At the very least our team worked out some good keyboard shortcuts: C-a leaders with caps mapped onto Ctrl, VIM/Tmux setups lifted from YADR so when you hit C-h/j/k/l you can jump through VIM windows and tmux panes seamlessly, etc. With some work tmux is awesome and we mostly just copy/paste links over hipchat if we're looking at documentation.

kohlerm 11y ago

I also tried neovims terminal support and I must say I really like it. The reason is that you have a consistent way to mark and copy text from your terminal buffer(it basically works like in the editor). I had some other issues with nvim, which why I'm not yet settled on using it. I also like abduco for connection management.I'm currently using i3wm and a combination of some other tools such as parcelite to make sure that the copy and paste buffers are synchronized. I'm still looking for a simple way to be able to select something from the terminal buffer and copy it to somewhere else without the need of some complicated key bindings (e.g. not using screen or tmux). neovims terminal works well for this use case. I don't have the need to run a complicated dev enviroment using only terminal windows on some remote server. I would rather run i3wm and use NX to connect (its fast enough) if I had that use case.