4 ms·

On the one hand, I wish I lived in an era of human history when technology had improved to the point where we could explore or communicate with distant planets

On the one hand, I wish I lived in an era of human history when technology had improved to the point where we could explore or communicate with distant planets and meet other sentient life forms. On the other hand, our treatment of lifeforms of varying difference to ourselves already on our planet is deeply troubling. The thought of that culture spreading across the galaxy like a disease is horrifying. I have a pet dog. I think I treat her well. Will my descendants look back on this and compare me to my not-so-distant ancestors who were racist or sexist?

diogenescynic 11y ago
Demetri Martin: It seems like there's a fine line between having a pet and having a hostage from a different species. You go to somebody's house, they're like, "Close the door. He'll get out. CLOSE THE DOOR! HE'LL GET OUT!" Okay. What kind of relationship do you have with this dog, exactly?
- danrisso3 11y ago
  It seems like there's a fine line between having a toddler and having a hostage from the same species. You go to somebody's house, they're like, "Close the door. He'll get out. CLOSE THE DOOR! HE'LL GET OUT!" Okay. What kind of relationship do you have with this kid, exactly?
  - StephenConnell 11y ago
    Ha. Same problem? Communication issues?
toomuchtodo 11y ago
I have the same fears about sentient machine intelligence. Will it be a kind god?
dpflan 11y ago
Here is an article about a Beluga whale that began to mimic human speech: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/story-one-whale-who-tried-bridge-linguistic-divide-between-animals-humans-180951437/?no-ist http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/story-one-whale... Also, In the "Animal Minds" episode, Radiolab recounts a story of divers saving a net-entangled whale, and the whale in turn "thanks" each diver. It's a good show, and the examples included are thought-provoking. If you found this story intriguing, I recommend giving this Radiolab episode a listen. If not, the stories leads to what is intelligence and connection possibilities across species, and the topic of Spindle Neurons is presented which are explored as a connection between high and low order parts of the brain. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spindle_neuron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spindle_neuron) _ The Goods: 1. The episode: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91701-animal-minds/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/91701-animal-minds/ 2. A related follow-up about whales: http://www.radiolab.org/story/149761-whale-saying-thank-you/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/149761-whale-saying-thank-you/
- alanwatts 11y ago
  What are your thoughts on Jon C. Lilly's work?
krapp 11y ago
>The thought of that culture spreading across the galaxy like a disease is horrifying. Why the assumption that humans are uniquely pestilential in our behavior? For all we know, 'the galaxy' might consider our capacity for tolerance to be the disease.
kazinator 11y ago
Dogs are not exactly in captivity; they are domestic. Many of them show that they are not in captivity by roaming freely but then returning home. They do so even if they are not verbally threatened with negative consequences if they fail to come home; and they wouldn't understand that anyway. :) Domestic animals kept as pets that are treated well have good lives that they arguably enjoy. Wild animals have it very tough, by contrast.
- logfromblammo 11y ago
  Hachiko. Greyfriars Bobby. Argos. Silverton's Bobbie. Some dogs are famous (worldwide!) for acts of extraordinary loyalty toward their humans.
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    Without conversation how can you tell it's loyalty. An animal trained from birth to stay by their master in order not to be chastised and in order to be fed; is it loyalty or conditioning. You can condition a human to "stand in line" but whilst their actions may appear loyal we can often find that assumption to be false. Loyalty of animals seems to be something for which we have no good evidence?
    - logfromblammo 11y ago
      We have a handful of animal behavior studies. These have suggested that your dog actually cares about you, and your cat does not. They also suggest that dogs and wolves do have significant differences in their behavior, attributable to selective breeding. These studies used the same techniques that researchers use with pre-communicative human babies. They measure gaze direction and duration, among other things. Even with conversation, how could you tell? Humans are able to prevaricate and dissemble, after all. How can you tell if someone is loyal to your crime family? Maybe he's just conditioned to not wear concrete overshoes and get a cut of the rackets? How can you tell if someone is loyal to your country? Maybe they are just conditioned to not get fired and blacklisted or imprisoned, and to receive government benefits?
manachar 11y ago
At this point we still cannot actually negotiate with our pets to establish a mutually satisfactory relationship. Domesticated animals are animals that co-evolved with modern humans (lately with a lot of human selection). Some of our practices towards our pets are barbaric now. For instance, purposefully breeding worse and worse genes to get a flatter face despite the misery this causes the dogs. But in other ways, dogs and cats still can't make choices about things that would allow us to treat them as equals. For instance, we forcibly sterilize cats and dogs so they don't breed and contribute to the overpopulation problem. We restrict their movement so they do not endanger others or themselves. Outdoor cats are an environmental catastrophe in most areas. It's tough to know what the right treatment of a pet is. I do believe we've gotten better. It used to be common for vets to not give pain meds to dogs recovering from surgery. I guess it's easier to ignore the pain when they can't talk to you. It also used to be common to shoot a dog who has broken a leg. I recently had a dog who had osteosarcoma. We paid to have his leg amputated and for chemo. Our conversations with the vet were nearly identical to how I'd approach getting cancer. Some people thought we were nuts paying for such care. Cats are still treated as disposable by many people. One step above a goldfish. Meanwhile, some people are starting to actually take koi fish in to vets for treatment. If you treat your pets as individual lives worthy of dignity and let that inform your thinking, I imagine you're already better than most of human history's brutally utilitarian approach.
matwood 11y ago
> I have a pet dog. I think I treat her well. Will my descendants look back on this and compare me to my not-so-distant ancestors who were racist or sexist? I know mine will not. My dogs are living the good life.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

diogenescynic 11y ago

Demetri Martin: It seems like there's a fine line between having a pet and having a hostage from a different species. You go to somebody's house, they're like, "Close the door. He'll get out. CLOSE THE DOOR! HE'LL GET OUT!" Okay. What kind of relationship do you have with this dog, exactly?

danrisso3 11y ago
It seems like there's a fine line between having a toddler and having a hostage from the same species. You go to somebody's house, they're like, "Close the door. He'll get out. CLOSE THE DOOR! HE'LL GET OUT!" Okay. What kind of relationship do you have with this kid, exactly?
- StephenConnell 11y ago
  Ha. Same problem? Communication issues?

toomuchtodo 11y ago

I have the same fears about sentient machine intelligence. Will it be a kind god?

dpflan 11y ago

Here is an article about a Beluga whale that began to mimic human speech: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/story-one-whale-who-tried-bridge-linguistic-divide-between-animals-humans-180951437/?no-ist http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/story-one-whale... Also, In the "Animal Minds" episode, Radiolab recounts a story of divers saving a net-entangled whale, and the whale in turn "thanks" each diver. It's a good show, and the examples included are thought-provoking. If you found this story intriguing, I recommend giving this Radiolab episode a listen. If not, the stories leads to what is intelligence and connection possibilities across species, and the topic of Spindle Neurons is presented which are explored as a connection between high and low order parts of the brain. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spindle_neuron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spindle_neuron) _ The Goods: 1. The episode: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91701-animal-minds/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/91701-animal-minds/ 2. A related follow-up about whales: http://www.radiolab.org/story/149761-whale-saying-thank-you/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/149761-whale-saying-thank-you/

alanwatts 11y ago
What are your thoughts on Jon C. Lilly's work?

krapp 11y ago

>The thought of that culture spreading across the galaxy like a disease is horrifying. Why the assumption that humans are uniquely pestilential in our behavior? For all we know, 'the galaxy' might consider our capacity for tolerance to be the disease.

kazinator 11y ago

Dogs are not exactly in captivity; they are domestic. Many of them show that they are not in captivity by roaming freely but then returning home. They do so even if they are not verbally threatened with negative consequences if they fail to come home; and they wouldn't understand that anyway. :) Domestic animals kept as pets that are treated well have good lives that they arguably enjoy. Wild animals have it very tough, by contrast.

logfromblammo 11y ago
Hachiko. Greyfriars Bobby. Argos. Silverton's Bobbie. Some dogs are famous (worldwide!) for acts of extraordinary loyalty toward their humans.
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  Without conversation how can you tell it's loyalty. An animal trained from birth to stay by their master in order not to be chastised and in order to be fed; is it loyalty or conditioning. You can condition a human to "stand in line" but whilst their actions may appear loyal we can often find that assumption to be false. Loyalty of animals seems to be something for which we have no good evidence?
  - logfromblammo 11y ago
    We have a handful of animal behavior studies. These have suggested that your dog actually cares about you, and your cat does not. They also suggest that dogs and wolves do have significant differences in their behavior, attributable to selective breeding. These studies used the same techniques that researchers use with pre-communicative human babies. They measure gaze direction and duration, among other things. Even with conversation, how could you tell? Humans are able to prevaricate and dissemble, after all. How can you tell if someone is loyal to your crime family? Maybe he's just conditioned to not wear concrete overshoes and get a cut of the rackets? How can you tell if someone is loyal to your country? Maybe they are just conditioned to not get fired and blacklisted or imprisoned, and to receive government benefits?

manachar 11y ago

At this point we still cannot actually negotiate with our pets to establish a mutually satisfactory relationship. Domesticated animals are animals that co-evolved with modern humans (lately with a lot of human selection). Some of our practices towards our pets are barbaric now. For instance, purposefully breeding worse and worse genes to get a flatter face despite the misery this causes the dogs. But in other ways, dogs and cats still can't make choices about things that would allow us to treat them as equals. For instance, we forcibly sterilize cats and dogs so they don't breed and contribute to the overpopulation problem. We restrict their movement so they do not endanger others or themselves. Outdoor cats are an environmental catastrophe in most areas. It's tough to know what the right treatment of a pet is. I do believe we've gotten better. It used to be common for vets to not give pain meds to dogs recovering from surgery. I guess it's easier to ignore the pain when they can't talk to you. It also used to be common to shoot a dog who has broken a leg. I recently had a dog who had osteosarcoma. We paid to have his leg amputated and for chemo. Our conversations with the vet were nearly identical to how I'd approach getting cancer. Some people thought we were nuts paying for such care. Cats are still treated as disposable by many people. One step above a goldfish. Meanwhile, some people are starting to actually take koi fish in to vets for treatment. If you treat your pets as individual lives worthy of dignity and let that inform your thinking, I imagine you're already better than most of human history's brutally utilitarian approach.

matwood 11y ago

> I have a pet dog. I think I treat her well. Will my descendants look back on this and compare me to my not-so-distant ancestors who were racist or sexist? I know mine will not. My dogs are living the good life.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]