9 ms·

In the same paragraph you indicate that Oracle and other companies paid for people to work on open source projects, then bemoan that companies get the work for

In the same paragraph you indicate that Oracle and other companies paid for people to work on open source projects, then bemoan that companies get the work for free. The signal is a little mixed, care to clarify your stance on this?

chii 11y ago
Some engineers got paid by oracle to work on open source software. But there are still contributions from others who weren't paid by oracle, and yet oracle is extracting a lot of profit from said software (more than what they paid, because of the 'free' contributions from the unpaid engineers).
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  And everybody is wealthier as a consequence. Oracle's clients pay less for a solution than they would otherwise, Oracle can compete on this area, some engineers get paid by Oracle to improve a commons, and everybody else gets a more functional system for free. Ok, maybe somebody worked there against their best interest, but that somebody wasn't coordinated by any big corporation, and should look onto fixing himself only. The ecosystem as a whole is healthy.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >And everybody is wealthier as a consequence. Well, except for those using Java. Because Oracle screwed it up.
    - pron 11y ago
      > Because Oracle screwed it up. I am quite involved in the Java community and I don't see it. How did Oracle screw it up?
      - pjmlp 11y ago
        Support for mobile OSes. You could have had JIT/AOT for Windows Phone and AOT compiler for iOS, but they never cared. Now C++ and C# reign as the languages to go for portable mobile native apps.
        pron 11y ago
        This may well have been a mistake, but it is being addressed now, though probably not aggressively enough. Also, depending on how Google integrates OpenJDK into Android, we may soon have Java (real Java, that is) on the world's leading mobile platform.
        pjmlp 11y ago
        So far Google has been integrating OpenJDK 7, still curious to see if they say anything at Google IO. How is it being addressed? You mean the communication to leave to the community the porting of OpenJDK to mobile platforms? Or having the RoboVM guys at JavaONE, but giving them zero support other than publicity? I am not confident that Google will move away from their fork, most likely they will adopt something else, specially with ChromeOS and Android merging.
        pron 11y ago
        > How is it being addressed? http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mobile/ http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mobile/
      - coldtea 11y ago
        Well, how involved are you? Did you see much good work this last 5-6 years from the part of Oracle? Could there be anything more they could do to downplay Java and alienate the community? http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987529/java/insider-oracle-lost-interest-in-java.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987529/java/insider-oracle... https://jaxenter.com/oracle-and-javas-planned-obsolescence-121144.html https://jaxenter.com/oracle-and-javas-planned-obsolescence-1... http://fortune.com/2015/09/07/oracle-cuts-java-execs/ http://fortune.com/2015/09/07/oracle-cuts-java-execs/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-installs-deceptive-software-with-java-updates/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-inst... http://www.infoq.com/news/2015/09/oracle-purges-java-evangelists http://www.infoq.com/news/2015/09/oracle-purges-java-evangel... http://www.computerworld.com/article/2469593/open-source-tools/it-s-not-apache-vs--oracle--it-s-oracle-vs--open-source.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2469593/open-source-too... http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/11/apache-foundation-to-vote-down-java-7-protesting-oracle-abuses/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/11/apache... https://dzone.com/articles/oracle-announces-jigsaw-delays-push-java-9-launch https://dzone.com/articles/oracle-announces-jigsaw-delays-pu... https://jaxenter.com/even-if-oracle-is-losing-interest-in-java-should-you-worry-122390.html https://jaxenter.com/even-if-oracle-is-losing-interest-in-ja... http://alvinalexander.com/java/doug-lea-leaving-java-community-process-jcp http://alvinalexander.com/java/doug-lea-leaving-java-communi...
    - paulddraper 11y ago
      Yeah, java. What a failure. Oracle killed it. Rip
      - coldtea 11y ago
        Anybody said Java is a failure? Or that Oracle "killed" it? Even if they did, it would take a couple decades to get at the level Cobol today it. What I said is Oracle screwed Java up. By alienating the community, By not caring for security (except after all the huge negative press each time), By not innovating at a decent pace, By falling back on promises, By killing off the evangelists, By ignoring the mobile space, and in several other ways. Not to mention the bloody Java "API" lawsuit...
  - eots 11y ago
    > And everybody is wealthier as a consequence. Except some got wealthier than others.
    - maxlybbert 11y ago
      What's wrong with that?
    - paulddraper 11y ago
      No!
    - the_af 11y ago
      How would closed, proprietary software help?
  - throw21123 11y ago
    No, the ecosystem is not healthy. Idealistic people are exploited, business as usual. It appears healthy for some Silicon Valley parasites who live in a bubble. Let the others eat cake.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    "Oracle's clients pay less for a solution..." Not something you read every day!
MrTonyD 11y ago
If you list the Fortune 50 you will find that they all get huge benefit from Open Source. I've worked with Wall Street Banks, Monsanto, NSA, Big Ag, Big Tobacco, Big Pharma, and other companies which are extracting incredible profits from our society - often at a great cost to our society. Does it make sense to give free help to those who harm?
- RodericDay 11y ago
  You've worked for all those bad companies, making money while providing them services, and you want to pin the blame on Open Source Software?
- pron 11y ago
  I'm still having a hard time understanding what you're saying with regards to Oracle. Oracle does indeed contribute a lot to OSS (mostly due to their acquisition of Sun), but it is also one of those "rich companies" and owned by multi-billionaires who extract most value from OSS. So what exactly are you saying?
  - MrTonyD 11y ago
    I'm not really trying to say a lot with respect to Oracle. Except perhaps that their interest in Open Source is really not philosophical - it is strictly profit driven. That has real implications to those who adopt Open Source or view it from a philosophical perspective.
    - mystikal 11y ago
      The prevailing view that corporations benefit society the most simply by focusing on profits for shareholders is almost entirely philosophical (we cannot prove this, although many economists would probably like to).
- the_af 11y ago
  How would closed, proprietary software make the situation any better? Free & Open Source software benefits everyone, which sadly includes bad actors and companies you (and maybe I!) don't like. But don't forget about the "everyone" part, which is the most important one!

chii 11y ago

Some engineers got paid by oracle to work on open source software. But there are still contributions from others who weren't paid by oracle, and yet oracle is extracting a lot of profit from said software (more than what they paid, because of the 'free' contributions from the unpaid engineers).

marcosdumay 11y ago
And everybody is wealthier as a consequence. Oracle's clients pay less for a solution than they would otherwise, Oracle can compete on this area, some engineers get paid by Oracle to improve a commons, and everybody else gets a more functional system for free. Ok, maybe somebody worked there against their best interest, but that somebody wasn't coordinated by any big corporation, and should look onto fixing himself only. The ecosystem as a whole is healthy.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >And everybody is wealthier as a consequence. Well, except for those using Java. Because Oracle screwed it up.
  - pron 11y ago
    > Because Oracle screwed it up. I am quite involved in the Java community and I don't see it. How did Oracle screw it up?
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      Support for mobile OSes. You could have had JIT/AOT for Windows Phone and AOT compiler for iOS, but they never cared. Now C++ and C# reign as the languages to go for portable mobile native apps.
      - pron 11y ago
        This may well have been a mistake, but it is being addressed now, though probably not aggressively enough. Also, depending on how Google integrates OpenJDK into Android, we may soon have Java (real Java, that is) on the world's leading mobile platform.
        pjmlp 11y ago
        So far Google has been integrating OpenJDK 7, still curious to see if they say anything at Google IO. How is it being addressed? You mean the communication to leave to the community the porting of OpenJDK to mobile platforms? Or having the RoboVM guys at JavaONE, but giving them zero support other than publicity? I am not confident that Google will move away from their fork, most likely they will adopt something else, specially with ChromeOS and Android merging.
        pron 11y ago
        > How is it being addressed? http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mobile/ http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mobile/
    - coldtea 11y ago
      Well, how involved are you? Did you see much good work this last 5-6 years from the part of Oracle? Could there be anything more they could do to downplay Java and alienate the community? http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987529/java/insider-oracle-lost-interest-in-java.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987529/java/insider-oracle... https://jaxenter.com/oracle-and-javas-planned-obsolescence-121144.html https://jaxenter.com/oracle-and-javas-planned-obsolescence-1... http://fortune.com/2015/09/07/oracle-cuts-java-execs/ http://fortune.com/2015/09/07/oracle-cuts-java-execs/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-installs-deceptive-software-with-java-updates/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-inst... http://www.infoq.com/news/2015/09/oracle-purges-java-evangelists http://www.infoq.com/news/2015/09/oracle-purges-java-evangel... http://www.computerworld.com/article/2469593/open-source-tools/it-s-not-apache-vs--oracle--it-s-oracle-vs--open-source.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2469593/open-source-too... http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/11/apache-foundation-to-vote-down-java-7-protesting-oracle-abuses/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/11/apache... https://dzone.com/articles/oracle-announces-jigsaw-delays-push-java-9-launch https://dzone.com/articles/oracle-announces-jigsaw-delays-pu... https://jaxenter.com/even-if-oracle-is-losing-interest-in-java-should-you-worry-122390.html https://jaxenter.com/even-if-oracle-is-losing-interest-in-ja... http://alvinalexander.com/java/doug-lea-leaving-java-community-process-jcp http://alvinalexander.com/java/doug-lea-leaving-java-communi...
  - paulddraper 11y ago
    Yeah, java. What a failure. Oracle killed it. Rip
    - coldtea 11y ago
      Anybody said Java is a failure? Or that Oracle "killed" it? Even if they did, it would take a couple decades to get at the level Cobol today it. What I said is Oracle screwed Java up. By alienating the community, By not caring for security (except after all the huge negative press each time), By not innovating at a decent pace, By falling back on promises, By killing off the evangelists, By ignoring the mobile space, and in several other ways. Not to mention the bloody Java "API" lawsuit...
- eots 11y ago
  > And everybody is wealthier as a consequence. Except some got wealthier than others.
  - maxlybbert 11y ago
    What's wrong with that?
  - paulddraper 11y ago
    No!
  - the_af 11y ago
    How would closed, proprietary software help?
- throw21123 11y ago
  No, the ecosystem is not healthy. Idealistic people are exploited, business as usual. It appears healthy for some Silicon Valley parasites who live in a bubble. Let the others eat cake.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  "Oracle's clients pay less for a solution..." Not something you read every day!

MrTonyD 11y ago

If you list the Fortune 50 you will find that they all get huge benefit from Open Source. I've worked with Wall Street Banks, Monsanto, NSA, Big Ag, Big Tobacco, Big Pharma, and other companies which are extracting incredible profits from our society - often at a great cost to our society. Does it make sense to give free help to those who harm?

RodericDay 11y ago
You've worked for all those bad companies, making money while providing them services, and you want to pin the blame on Open Source Software?
pron 11y ago
I'm still having a hard time understanding what you're saying with regards to Oracle. Oracle does indeed contribute a lot to OSS (mostly due to their acquisition of Sun), but it is also one of those "rich companies" and owned by multi-billionaires who extract most value from OSS. So what exactly are you saying?
- MrTonyD 11y ago
  I'm not really trying to say a lot with respect to Oracle. Except perhaps that their interest in Open Source is really not philosophical - it is strictly profit driven. That has real implications to those who adopt Open Source or view it from a philosophical perspective.
  - mystikal 11y ago
    The prevailing view that corporations benefit society the most simply by focusing on profits for shareholders is almost entirely philosophical (we cannot prove this, although many economists would probably like to).
the_af 11y ago
How would closed, proprietary software make the situation any better? Free & Open Source software benefits everyone, which sadly includes bad actors and companies you (and maybe I!) don't like. But don't forget about the "everyone" part, which is the most important one!