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Alot of people here are somehow turning this into a USA/NSA bashing but thats a straw man. The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a cri

Alot of people here are somehow turning this into a USA/NSA bashing but thats a straw man. The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a crime you haven't committed or at least that judge and jury haven't deliberated on. Can you say the Chinese have the same safeguards ...probably not? Yes, governments have and always will have the vested interest to retain their power but that's why we must have our rights and legal system. I feel like the Chinese don't share this luxury as much as we do.

danharaj 11y ago
That's a misuse of the word strawman. Also "our shadow government with totalitarian tendencies is better than theirs" is kind of flimsy#. The FBI frequently radicalizes and encourages vulnerable, alienated people to execute terrorist plots. Sure, they don't arrest people for 'pre-crimes', but they do manufacture terrorists so that they can 'catch' them. The CIA, FBI, NSA, and a few other alphabet soup agencies have a regular history of mass violation of rights and egregious human rights abuses. Who has forgotten the Senate report about CIA torture already? The CIA was forcibly anally raping unjustly detained individuals as part of its interrogation program. People who paper over the atrocities regularly committed in the name of liberal democracy undermine democracy by refusing to distinguish it from a far inferior and quite obviously broken system. It seems like there's a short memory and long list of excuses for the abuses perpetrated by nations like the US. # This is a strawman of your position.
- mineshaftgap 11y ago
  Also the company Alphabet gives all the agencies all the data they have freely.
- seivan 11y ago
  These wars and "plots" happened before the US even existed. Did the Americans time travel in order to create them or what am I missing here? How do you think religion spread in the past, peaceful missionaries?
nxzero 11y ago
Just to be clear, you don't believe the US is using the data to violate the rights of Americans without due process, right? If so, you're wrong.
tanv_nadkarni 11y ago
True Americans should defend their liberty from Government and yet not fall int trap of overlooking the fact that they are better off than most people in the world and certainly better than China or India. Having said that if China's actions can be used to hold mirror to American government I am all for it. Civil forfeiture laws in my opinion are a good example of pre-crime.
dragonbonheur 11y ago
Straw man! hacker News' favorite expression! > The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a crime you haven't committed or at least that judge and jury haven't deliberated on. The fact of the matter is that people have been sent to prisons in the oh-so-righteous America without a single court hearing. Also, haven't you ever heard of Guantanamo? You know, that magical place where the US government sends people for decades and submits them to "rectal feeding" while they're there? Straw man!!! [0] http://theweek.com/speedreads/560204/half-million-americans-are-jail-right-now-without-trial http://theweek.com/speedreads/560204/half-million-americans-... [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/nyregion/kalief-browder-held-at-rikers-island-for-3-years-without-trial-commits-suicide.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/nyregion/kalief-browder-he... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3e6m7z/eli5how_can_someone_be_sent_to_prison_without_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3e6m7z/e... [3] https://www.aclu.org/news/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-bill-law https://www.aclu.org/news/president-obama-signs-indefinite-d... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_of_Daniel_Chong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_of_Daniel_Chong
jotux 11y ago
>The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a crime you haven't committed or at least that judge and jury haven't deliberated on. Kevin Mitnick spent 4.5 years in jail waiting for trial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick#Arrest.2C_conviction.2C_and_incarceration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick#Arrest.2C_convic...
- hanniabu 11y ago
  I find it funny(sad?) that this happens, yet we're told that we are innocent until proven guilty. At the same time, there can be a man that stabs a person to death of front of a dozen witnesses, is caught by the police immediately after covered in blood and a knife in hand, with it all caught on tape, and they'll still refer to this guy as an 'alleged' murdered. Go figure
- argonaut 11y ago
  Are you suggesting that all criminals should be released immediately after being arrested? Clearly that is false: not all criminals should be released after being arrested (as an extreme example, if a man goes on a rampage and shoots 20 people, clearly he should not be out on bail pending trial). Obviously the judge made a mistake in believing Kevin was a security threat, but there is nothing wrong with the principle of detaining people pending trial. Meanwhile, in China, you have bookstore owners, bankers, and government officials "disappearing" left and right.
  - gnaritas 11y ago
    > but there is nothing wrong with the principle of detaining people pending trial. There isn't if and only if we deliver on the promise of a speedy trial, which we don't.
    - argonaut 11y ago
      No. Even if there were no promise of a speedy trial, this principle stands.
gnaritas 11y ago
> The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a crime you haven't committed or at least that judge and jury haven't deliberated on. Because the constitution says something, doesn't make it true. We're a war mongering empire and a police state who imprisons more of its population than any other country. Holding people in jail without trial absolutely happens under our rule both in and out of the country.
beeboop 11y ago
You can be be found in contempt of court for not providing information that you have not been proven to possess. One guy spent 14 years in prison without being charged or convicted of a crime, and never had any input from a jury: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=8101209 http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=8101209 Additionally, you really have zero constitutional protections in the US if you're a member of the armed forces.
tw04 11y ago
The Patriot Act actually says otherwise. All you need to do is get yourself classified as a terrorist and you lose every last right you ever thought you had.

danharaj 11y ago

That's a misuse of the word strawman. Also "our shadow government with totalitarian tendencies is better than theirs" is kind of flimsy#. The FBI frequently radicalizes and encourages vulnerable, alienated people to execute terrorist plots. Sure, they don't arrest people for 'pre-crimes', but they do manufacture terrorists so that they can 'catch' them. The CIA, FBI, NSA, and a few other alphabet soup agencies have a regular history of mass violation of rights and egregious human rights abuses. Who has forgotten the Senate report about CIA torture already? The CIA was forcibly anally raping unjustly detained individuals as part of its interrogation program. People who paper over the atrocities regularly committed in the name of liberal democracy undermine democracy by refusing to distinguish it from a far inferior and quite obviously broken system. It seems like there's a short memory and long list of excuses for the abuses perpetrated by nations like the US. # This is a strawman of your position.

mineshaftgap 11y ago
Also the company Alphabet gives all the agencies all the data they have freely.
seivan 11y ago
These wars and "plots" happened before the US even existed. Did the Americans time travel in order to create them or what am I missing here? How do you think religion spread in the past, peaceful missionaries?

nxzero 11y ago

Just to be clear, you don't believe the US is using the data to violate the rights of Americans without due process, right? If so, you're wrong.

tanv_nadkarni 11y ago

True Americans should defend their liberty from Government and yet not fall int trap of overlooking the fact that they are better off than most people in the world and certainly better than China or India. Having said that if China's actions can be used to hold mirror to American government I am all for it. Civil forfeiture laws in my opinion are a good example of pre-crime.

dragonbonheur 11y ago

Straw man! hacker News' favorite expression! > The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a crime you haven't committed or at least that judge and jury haven't deliberated on. The fact of the matter is that people have been sent to prisons in the oh-so-righteous America without a single court hearing. Also, haven't you ever heard of Guantanamo? You know, that magical place where the US government sends people for decades and submits them to "rectal feeding" while they're there? Straw man!!! [0] http://theweek.com/speedreads/560204/half-million-americans-are-jail-right-now-without-trial http://theweek.com/speedreads/560204/half-million-americans-... [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/nyregion/kalief-browder-held-at-rikers-island-for-3-years-without-trial-commits-suicide.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/nyregion/kalief-browder-he... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3e6m7z/eli5how_can_someone_be_sent_to_prison_without_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3e6m7z/e... [3] https://www.aclu.org/news/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-bill-law https://www.aclu.org/news/president-obama-signs-indefinite-d... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_of_Daniel_Chong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_of_Daniel_Chong

jotux 11y ago

>The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a crime you haven't committed or at least that judge and jury haven't deliberated on. Kevin Mitnick spent 4.5 years in jail waiting for trial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick#Arrest.2C_conviction.2C_and_incarceration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick#Arrest.2C_convic...

hanniabu 11y ago
I find it funny(sad?) that this happens, yet we're told that we are innocent until proven guilty. At the same time, there can be a man that stabs a person to death of front of a dozen witnesses, is caught by the police immediately after covered in blood and a knife in hand, with it all caught on tape, and they'll still refer to this guy as an 'alleged' murdered. Go figure
argonaut 11y ago
Are you suggesting that all criminals should be released immediately after being arrested? Clearly that is false: not all criminals should be released after being arrested (as an extreme example, if a man goes on a rampage and shoots 20 people, clearly he should not be out on bail pending trial). Obviously the judge made a mistake in believing Kevin was a security threat, but there is nothing wrong with the principle of detaining people pending trial. Meanwhile, in China, you have bookstore owners, bankers, and government officials "disappearing" left and right.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  > but there is nothing wrong with the principle of detaining people pending trial. There isn't if and only if we deliver on the promise of a speedy trial, which we don't.
  - argonaut 11y ago
    No. Even if there were no promise of a speedy trial, this principle stands.

gnaritas 11y ago

> The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a crime you haven't committed or at least that judge and jury haven't deliberated on. Because the constitution says something, doesn't make it true. We're a war mongering empire and a police state who imprisons more of its population than any other country. Holding people in jail without trial absolutely happens under our rule both in and out of the country.

beeboop 11y ago

You can be be found in contempt of court for not providing information that you have not been proven to possess. One guy spent 14 years in prison without being charged or convicted of a crime, and never had any input from a jury: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=8101209 http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=8101209 Additionally, you really have zero constitutional protections in the US if you're a member of the armed forces.

tw04 11y ago

The Patriot Act actually says otherwise. All you need to do is get yourself classified as a terrorist and you lose every last right you ever thought you had.