11 ms·

Why you probably don't need an MBA

228 points by reqres 11y ago

d0mme 11y ago
Problem: In e.g. Germany you need these papers to get access to some jobs, without you won't get them or nearly only 1% will have chance to get it. There's no job guarantee with it, but still...
- merb 11y ago
  You don't. At least not by every job. It's more like 99% could get a job without a MBA. If everybody will be a master, everybody will also want to get a higher grade in his job, which couldn't work, so you need normal developers as well. The only thing you will get a lot less than a MBA. When you would get the job of a MBA you will mostly get the same money he will get even when you have 5 years of experience.
- gnaddel 11y ago
  Are you talking about MBAs or M.A./M.Sc. degrees in related fields? Personally, I do not even consider MBAs to be much of "a thing" in Germany. Yes, there are some prestigious universities offering them (St. Gallen comes to mind) but many people still have not moved on to the Bologna System from the good old "Diplombetriebswirt" in their hearts, let alone MBAs.
  - occamrazor 11y ago
    Just a remark: St. Gallen is in Switzerland, not in Germany
  - merb 11y ago
    Especially Bachelor. In my company we see Bachelors on the same level as people with just a "Ausbildung" in computer science. I also don't have a MBA or Bachelors and still got some job offers. It's just what you do. Actually in germany you can get a job really fast if you are into Scala / Java. Actually it won't make you rich, but it's good work and in Berlin there are a lot of companies searching for Scala Developers.
  - merb 11y ago
    Especially Bachelor. In my company we see Bachelors on the same level as people with just a "Ausbildung" in computer science. I also don't have a MBA or Bachelors and still got some job offers. It's just what you do. Actually in germany you can get a job really fast if you are into Scala / Java. Actually it won't make you rich, but it's good work and in Berlin there are a lot of companies searching for Scala Developers.
moonshinefe 11y ago
I think a lot of people are realizing that you don't need to get dozens of thousands of dollars in debt to get a quality education. Dedication counts. Sometimes you just need to know the right people or get your foot in the door as a lower level employee who can learn it in the real world. I know a surprisingly high amount of people who hold less than a 4 year bachelor's in Comp Sci or related who now hold significant positions in major companies.
arethuza 11y ago
The people I've known who were successful who had MBAs seemed to use it as a way of signalling that they were serious about doing the whole "management" thing - which in a large organisations tends to mean that you stop doing whatever it is the the organisation actually does and focus on "management" stuff. NB Note that I am most definitely not criticizing the need for high level managers - someone does have to do it, just that I personally have no interested in doing it as I'm too interested in actually doing stuff rather than managing other people doing stuff. Edit: For the MBA track in a large organisation you probably are aiming at being at least the manager of the manager of the manager of the people who actually do stuff... ;-)
- dreamfactory2 11y ago
  Most of this is operations-oriented and wide open to attack from automation. MBA won't give you the creative solution orientation you need for strategy and in some ways you'd be better equipped for this with a training in the arts. (Can't remember if it was joel, yegge, or 37s that said that the ability to write is an excellent indicator of a hire but definitely true.)
- eitally 11y ago
  I feel obligated to note that the stuff good managers do is frequently as important as the stuff good makers do in well-managed organizations. You are not better or worse, just different from each other, providing different value to the company. Lots of MBAs take that route out of consulting because they hate consulting but don't know what to do next. The internships & connections they make during the program help them decide, and frequently these decisions are to jump into a completely different industry. I consider it an expensive, but helpful, way for overachievers to figure out what they want to do with their life, and signal to future employers that they're serious about it.
- rconti 11y ago
  This is roughly the way I feel about it, too. I think when I was younger, I was more naïve. MBAs were for useless management drones, and you can easily get promoted to a management role without one. Having gone through college, joined the industry, and then had friends who went on to business school, I'm seeing the MBA clan as more of an entirely different social strata. It's mostly signaling, but you move directly into higher-powered "important" roles that aren't really promotions over individual contributor work, but almost an entirely different industry.
smagch 11y ago
I'd quote an interesting point of view on MBA from Joi Ito's TED talk. Before the Internet, if you remember, when we tried to create services, what you would do is you'd create the hardware layer and the network layer and the software and it would cost millions of dollars to do anything that was substantial. So when it costs millions of dollars to do something substantial, what you would do is you'd get an MBA who would write a plan and get the money from V.C.s or big companies, and then you'd hire the designers and the engineers, and they'd build the thing. This is the Before Internet, B.I., innovation model. https://www.ted.com/talks/joi_ito_want_to_innovate_become_a_now_ist/transcript?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/joi_ito_want_to_innovate_become_a_...
anu7df 11y ago
While I agree that this premise may be true for many, it really depends on the individual. Also a distance MBA is not worth it, almost never. It looks like the author went into a poor program, ill prepared and had to drop out. Generally a top MBA will put you on a quick rising career path. Whether you are happy in that path, well.. That's another matter. MBA doesn't guarantee you will rise in that path either. You may, if you are good. The degree just gives you a shot at it. A poor article by usual economist standards.
- chkuendig 11y ago
  Yeah, pretty sure the whole thing looks different if you get your MBA at HBS, INSEAD, IMD, LBS etc. (you don't have to fund 100% out of pocket, it actually is for the elite, depending on your career goals you probably want to meet those people, and while it wont make you genius, you probably get some valuable experiences)
mcbrown 11y ago
I will generalize his argument, since it's not really about MBA's: "If you make major life decisions against your clear preference in a vague effort to please your parents, you will probably regret it."
- ldd 11y ago
  I think that you should add: "Listen to your parents when you have to make minor life decisions". Way too many people either try too hard to please their parents, or ignore their advice entirely. With time, you learn to not swing too much either way.
sean_the_geek 11y ago
upvoted because I loved the honesty! I am 30 something and these are the exact sort of reasons which are holding me back from pursuing MBA. I have met people who have NOT done MBA (or any formal management education FTM) and are running successful businesses or are in management positions in good corporations. And I have met MBAs who are doing the job I would not consider if I have an MBA. I guess the point is to do it for right reasons. Like when you want to switch career to a new field and MBA can be your gateway. Having an MBA does not guarantee a high salary or that coveted management position IMHO.
- cm2187 11y ago
  And a lots of what is taught in these MBAs (or all these Agile, Scrum & co for that matter) are essentially substitutes for common sense.
- IkmoIkmo 11y ago
  I'd say, if your company offers (a track) to an MBA, take it. It's free, often partly in company time (get paid to study, partially), puts you on the fast-track to succession with HRM, sends a signal to any future employers that your previous employer marked you as a high-potential, worthy of investing in. I also recommend doing a Master's in a business field if you're 22 or so in a country where it makes sense. e.g. in continental europe it's pretty common to do a 3y bachelor from 18 to 21, and a 1y master's. The 1y master is a relatively small investment, and e.g. in the Netherlands where most unis are ranked top 100 worldwide, the cost of a 1y master's is about $2k. In 19/20 cases (making up a number), the added value of the learning/status/grit of this 1 year experience outweights the $2k+Opportunity-cost of spending this 1 year instead of working, it's an easy decision. For anyone else? e.g. self-funding a $100k program, spending 1-3 years and having to forgo work (without company support) when you're in your 30s, probably not a great idea, on average. At that point the value is mostly learning, at a huge cost. And in my experience, self-study vs college-study in the field of business is terrific. The resources for self-study are gigantic, lots of great books, youtube videos per topic and entire courses from Harvard or MIT are online, including online testing environments where you can do exams, and lots of cases that you can buy and work through, all at a 1% cost of an expensive MBA. It's not exactly the same, particularly for a few business schools which are actually great and add value, but it's pretty damn close in most cases.
puranjay 11y ago
MBAs are going the way of the law degree. Unless you are from a top 15 college, it's not worth it.
- ssharp 11y ago
  Not remotely true, though any ridiculously broad statement like probably won't be true.
  - puranjay 11y ago
    When you break it down, it might not be true for some cases. But for the average guy with a 3.4 GPA considering going to law or b-school to get a better job - the vast majority of applicants - it's probably not a good decision
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
Depends if your gaming the immigration system having a masters helps
- an4rchy 11y ago
  Are you talking about specific countries? I know that it's only for STEM specializations (in countries like US), which doesn't cover an MBA.
  - Havoc 11y ago
    Many countries award a lot more immigration "points" to a masters than say a bachelors (regardless of field). So in general if you're planning to move you need an M
  - desdiv 11y ago
    Any masters gives you an edge when applying for the H-1B visa: >An advanced degree exemption is available for the first 20,000 petitions filed for a beneficiary who has obtained a U.S. master’s degree or higher. [0] [0] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/h-1b-fiscal-year-fy-2016-cap-season https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...
- nibnib 11y ago
  Seems like an awful return. Surely there are faster, easier, cheaper Masters degrees if you just want to enter a country?
cm2187 11y ago
The article should probably be renamed "Why enrolling for an MBA to please my parents was not a good idea". MBAs make sense in some cases. It's a good way to change career path. Bankers and consultants use it as a break after two or three hellish years as a junior. Knowing all these middle managers in other industries is actually very useful, to keep an eye on what is going on or sell them stuff, and providing opportunities for future career changes. For others it is a way to "upgrade" a modest academic education. But enrolling in one of these things without having any clue of what to expect from it or just because of peer pressure is a waste of time and money. But the fault lies with the applicant.
hkmurakami 11y ago
A few years ago, I dropped out of a decent but not top level MBA program after a quarter. Putting together my own + my classmates + my college friends at top 5 programs, my takeaway is that the 3 main reasons to enroll in one are (1) to switch industries (or roles within an industry), (2) to take time off without leaving a hole in your resume (matters a lot in nontechnical fields), and (3) gain a particular network that you lack (ex: Wharton for finance, Stanford for SV, etc.). These reasons may sound trivial but for the right kind of person, the program can be a decent~good trade for their time and money opportunity cost. The "move up the corporate chain" thing used to be more true (ex: you need to have a MBA to move up past a certain rung in the org chart) but is increasingly less so today. These days, if you're good, you're good. A noteworthy might be the "in-between" phase after the 2 year consulting or finance analyst program, but a large fraction of this cohort fits into (1) above. The "learning" is nonzero but seems underwhelming and not anywhere near worth the funds you need to put up. Frankly if you know what you want to be doing in the future, imo you'll learn more by actually spending those 2 years actually working and doing those things (which was my main reason for dropping out). It may make more sense if you're a pretty bright person who doesn't really know what you want to do in the future but you do know that it isn't what you're doing now (ex: my journalist friends who saw the industry as a dead end). edit: Also it's unwise to bucket all programs as "MBAs" since each one can be surprisingly different in what they offer in terms of concrete benefits. edit2: For young professionals without a strong signaling institution thus far in their academic and professional careers, an MBA may be one of the more feasible options to get a mulligan in this regard. Say what you will about paying up for a signal, but it can pay off depending on the role and industry you're going for.
- msellout 11y ago
  It's more difficult than you might expect to change industries after an MBA. Your internships and employers will still look for relevant experience. The best method would be to use the MBA to join a large consulting firm. You'll still need to network internally and beg to be staffed on projects outside your historical specialty.
  - hkmurakami 11y ago
binarymax 11y ago
Shout out to The Personal MBA. https://personalmba.com/ https://personalmba.com/
- gedrap 11y ago
  Can second that. Easy to read and covers the core topics, lives up to the expectation and the promises.
vacri 11y ago
Maybe not an MBA per se, but some business training is useful. I keep on seeing the simplest mistakes in startups, especially around invoicing (which is most visible to me in terms of business stuff). Invoices that don't have the name of the company or the product on them. Invoices that are dynamically generated when you view past history (= very susceptible to bugs). Invoices you can't really print a hardcopy of. Invoices without tax components. Invoices with totals in weird positions; without dates; without payment guides; with dates, but without invoice numbers. When it comes to business, invoices are one of the easiest things to get right, and yet so many fail. Makes you wonder about their business nous on other topics.
an4rchy 11y ago
I'm in the middle of the application process for an MBA, and have thought about this before (cost and time investment). An MBA is not a magical piece of paper that will guarantee success. However, it will definitely give you the resources and the network to change your trajectory. You still have to work really hard at it. At any of the top schools, there's more competition among the students for recruiting (for many coveted industries: e.g. IB, PE, Consulting, Tech etc) because that's where everyone wants to go. If you're pursuing something non-traditional then you might want to rethink the need to go to one of the top schools You're not guaranteed a position just by going to the school and there is definitely a bias towards a lot of bigger companies recruiting at only the Top 10-15 schools unless you can really network your way to the top. The MBA is just another data point people use to qualify your candidacy. It's all about risk management and just like there is a bias towards a Harvard/Stanford/MIT grad or Google/FB engineers (this is what a lot of startups list on their site) the MBA is an indicator. Outside of the brand, I still do think you learn a lot in the class setting (working with diverse teams who come from different backgrounds and the ability to work on projects and consult in industries you've never worked in is a great learning experience)
deleted 11y ago
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mathattack 11y ago
The article is a little bit misleading. It sounds like they went to a very 3rd tier program. I've interviewed plenty of people from these types of programs. Many of them list MBA on their LinkedIn tagline, which inadvertently highlights "University of Phoenix" or some other online program on the bottom. For most of these people, the MBA is worthless. Net - I think MBAs from non-top schools are worthless for most of the reasons the author suggested. But... There is value in specific fields for top degrees. More than half the people from top 6-8 programs who want to get into banking or elite consulting programs can get there. If you really want to work for Bain/BCG/McK and you recruit on campus from a top program, you have an ~50% shot depending on the market. If you don't have that top MBA, it's much lower. (Less than 2%?) Similar with front office jobs in investment banking. What about technology, which is what most people here care about? I see a disproportionate amount of non-engineering CEOs with Computer Science undergrads followed by MBAs from a small subset of schools. (Harvard and Stanford followed by a big drop, then Kellogg, Penn, Chicago Booth and Cal in the next tier - perhaps I'm missing one or two) The #s are very disproportionate to what these schools produce. Is it causation or correlation? Much harder to say. These are hyper-talented people. They have technical skills too. I suspect they get some benefit from the sorting mechanism in place, the network, and the confidence that they built. Good CS programs are much more academically rigorous than most MBA programs, so I don't think it's genius granted from the mountaintop. I've strongly advised people to avoid programs outside the top 20 for economic reasons. If someone else is paying for it, and you're interested in learning about business for it's own sake, sure. But the maximum NPVs accumulate only to the grads from the top few schools. In this sense, MBAs are much more similar to law degrees than technical degrees.
- rbcgerard 11y ago
  i think this info graphic from the FT illustrates your point pretty concisely...https://ig.ft.com/sites/mba-to-ceo/ https://ig.ft.com/sites/mba-to-ceo/
  - mathattack 11y ago
    Yes. For once the infographic wins. :-) And it would be useful to point out how tiny a % of the workforce these schools produce.
ucaetano 11y ago
MBA here, you probably don't need an MBA. I went for it mostly to switch industries and geographies, as well as for the "learning" part, which I just find fun. It worked really well for me, but I had clear expected outcomes. The marginal value of an MBA degree is diminishing as the knowledge is easily available anywhere, but there are a few things which still count: - Network: unlike an usual MSc or PhD, an MBA class has 100's of people, and you spend a lot of time with them, building a very solid network - Switching functions or industry: it gives you a very good starting point. If you're an engineer, it will be hard to switch straight into marketing, PM, finance, etc. Doing an MBA, plus a summer internship in your target function will make a huge difference. - Switching geographies: the job marketplace for new MBA grads is global (visa issues in some countries aside), and salaries are usually similar globally, so it's a nice opportunity to chose where you to live moving forward - You're being sponsored: just do it, seriously, don't even think about it On the learning side, even if you can find all the stuff online, it makes a huge difference to discuss implications face to face with some brilliant professors. Here's the top stuff I learned: * How to constantly assess your own decision biases and compensate for it * Lot's of game theory and strategy applied to real world * Negotiations * You're not gonna beat the market, so don't even bother * How power is created and traded inside organizations
- cushychicken 11y ago
  Any book or article recommendations on the subject of how power is created and traded in organizations? I'm fascinated by the subject but don't know the first thing about it. (Like many engineers.)
  - eitally 11y ago
    Start with Sun Tzu. :) Some people have an aptitude for diplomacy and it comes naturally. Others don't. Some are completely turned off by the entire concept that quality work can't stand on its own. Intuiting and playing the power dynamics in an organization is a critical skill for managers especially (and in particular if they want to set their teams up for success). You can read all the theory and case studies you want but if it doesn't come naturally and/or you don't have opportunities to practice, it's going to be tough to make inroads. You can almost imagine it like the current US presidential nomination process. All the candidates are shit, on both sides, but astute folks know it only matters a little bit because there are plenty of smart people behind the scenes who actually pull the strings and make the important decisions. Those are the career diplomats, who are supported by specialist analysts, who are in turn receiving data and insights from technical staff. One of the easiest ways to "improve" in this area is to start by trying to figure out what the corporate BD strategy is (as well as the entire industry sector), then try to learn what individuals' agendas are, and finally connect the dots and figure out what critical role you or your team can play in the context of the bigger pictures. That's business. Business is not the same as making things. Business is the practice of instilling confidence and trust in other people, ultimately convincing them to give you money for something they find valuable.
timwaagh 11y ago
they are the entry to the old boys network. i've got an uncle who had one of these. he really is not that smart but he's been to Nyenrode. so he just gets jobs from old pals, fails at them. repeat ad infinitum. still brings in a lot of cash. if i had decent netwroking skills i'd apply there too.
kriro 11y ago
Additionally, most MBAs I've researched a while back seem to be geared towards the ultra extroverted crowd. Harvard is the prototypical example. At the end of the day my cynical side says they are reasonably expensive (if you're at a good one and the people you meet are interesting) and overly long networking events. I guess they are geared towards people who want to work in corporations after all (and are usually sponsored by a company) but I can't help but think that taking the money and spending the time ramen-noodling some idea will teach you more valuable lessons. For the networking you could also wander around SV kungfu master style and talk to random people in coffee shops for a couple of units of time. It's basically all about the certification (more or less) which is what I'd say is a fundamental issue about education in general. You can self-learn a lot of things but not self-certify.
swingbridge 11y ago
The MBA seems very much geared towards creating the middle management layers that bloat many organizations. A class of people too low down to really influence change but too high up to actually do anything. Many companies are slashing such positions and that's only a good thing in my opinion. Be really go at "doing" stuff (as in owning and delivering output) and then as one advances they become able to inspire others to do stuff too and inflict positive change in a company. That's what makes a good manager, not an MBA. Also in my observation the people going for MBAs largely wanted to tick the "advanced degree" box but weren't in a position to get an advanced degree in a 'real' subject. That's what led to the mass proliferation of programs that has really significantly devalued the MBA overall.
- eitally 11y ago
  I would have agreed 100% before switching industries myself and seeing how helpful & productive ex-consultant MBAs can be in getting things done. It totally depends on the corporate culture and the roles these people are put in.
rtfmp 11y ago
I love this " You cannot impress Asian parents. Unhappiness is their default. And honestly, I believe they enjoy it."
- rchaud 11y ago
  The whole writeup suggested the writer had an enormous chip on his shoulder for some reason; turns out you had to read to the end to find out what it was. Honestly, it sounds more like he didn't get into a top MBA program, and is paying the price. MBA programs are like law schools; the cost-benefit hinges enormously on how well the program is regarded.
carlmcqueen 11y ago
Having gone the corporation route there are jobs that I don't go for because I don't have the desired degrees and without the degrees the job req. ask for twice as much experience without it. I've held off and have done well for it, often the job I wanted wasn't what it looked like and better opportunities came along with networking and aiming at the jobs I knew were great fits. Those I've spoken to have described Wash U in St Louis as mainly international students and a big group of bitter Boeing employees who don't get 100% of it paid for anymore like previous employees did. My company offers less than the cost of a single class for the entire year since there was no correlation with loyalty. I'm still torn though, always feels like the grass is greener on the other side.
lordnacho 11y ago
Well, there’s no reason to do an MBA if you are interested in learning the content. This is quite true, especially as people who write about business tend to be quite good at reaching people. I did a good part of an MBA as part of my engineering degree at a world class university in Britain. I can honestly say, engineering is much more taxing on the brain than business. It’s hard to even call it learning, when what you’re doing is just reading through some cleaned up summaries of what various businesses did. Mostly it seemed like storytime, with companies instead of fairies. You better watch out, or you’ll get leapfrogged! As if people in the old businesses hadn’t considered that. In general there was a lot of dressing things up as complicated when really the truth was probably that the firms did what they could with the information they had. Mintzberg probably sticks out as the best guy to describe how decisions are really made. Looking back, there was also a real lack of practical business skills being taught. The main thing I would teach is some form of agile management. Or any kind of practical how-to-organize a group to do something. Without a guide on the nitty gritty, you end up having a strange birds-eye view of the business, with no idea how to get towards your goal. In my career working practices have made the biggest difference to what strategies could be followed.
tixocloud 11y ago
MBA here as well. If you're thinking of an MBA, think really hard about why and if it's necessary to achieve your goals. For me, I knew what I wanted to get out of it so it turned out well. Knowledge about business is everywhere and you're far better off trying to start a business if you actually want to learn about business. What I got out of it was: - Networks: Great friends from many different industries and skill sets - Communication: Being tech and introverted, I learned how to communicate my ideas better. I've come to since realize that while your ideas might be the best, if you can't communicate it well, it's not going to be adopted. Also, different people require different communication styles. - Self-awareness and emotional intelligence thinking: Lots of group work - teammates might be shitty and don't do anything. Figured out how to identify who's going to do work and who's not and how we're still going to deliver despite being handicapped. - Strategy, frameworks, theories: Just helps with the thinking process. Helps me understand what executives are thinking about. - Confidence: Wasn't born with a lot with confidence but going through presentations day in and day out helped me develop that. I was able to switch from startups to large companies in different industries to get a greater understanding of the differences between the two. From this experience, it's no wonder why startups that try to sell to big companies usually have a tougher time than trying to sell to smaller companies (depending on industry of course).
- j_s 11y ago
  Do you have any experience with anything similar to Toastmasters? If so, do you think that Toastmasters is a good first step when considering the potential of an MBA? It seems to line up with several of the benefits you mention. http://www.toastmasters.org/ http://www.toastmasters.org/
  - ucaetano 11y ago
    We had a class which was essentially toastmasters, so yeah, it really helps with the communication part.
  - tixocloud 11y ago
    I do have experience with Toastmasters and it's a great step for sure. I would definitely recommend it as a more affordable alternative.
rchaud 11y ago
As opinion pieces go, I expect a lot better writing and research from someone employed by the Economist, even if they are an intern. This article could easily have been titled "Not all MBAs are created equal" and needed no further explanation. "Business schools constantly boast about the network students can tap into. Don’t be fooled. Do you need to pay thousands to meet middle managers from industries that you have no interest in?" I don't know about UK MBAs, but a cursory glance at the employment reports of any US MBA school will provide the names of companies that come on campus to recruit candidates. This is the first thing any prospective MBA student should be looking at when they're creating their shortlist of schools. If you are looking to get into consulting, those schools should have McKinsey, Deloitte, Accenture and the like on there. If you're interested in technology, Amazon, Google, Facebook etc. should be coming on campus. For finance, Goldman, JP Morgan, etc. An so on and so forth. If those names, or other high-profile names aren't on the list, you may not get your money's worth. An MBA has never been about the quality of the education you get, but rather about name recognition and how much pull the school has with recruiters. This is common knowledge for anybody doing even an hour's research into whether an MBA is right for them. That's the biggest flaw of this write-up. The writer appears to have done little to no research on his program before enrolling, and considers his support officer saying "you should have had all the money sorted" to be some sort of cold-world realization, which is absurdly irresponsible when you consider how much an MBA costs. I don't like using the word "entitled" to describe people, but I have to wonder about the conclusions he reaches about his teammates who didn't speak English well. They ended up in management consultancies, while he, the heroic working man struggling to teach them English, is interning at the Economist, a position that usually goes to undergraduates. Perhaps he should stop to consider that maybe they got their jobs because they attempted to network more, or simply showed up to their interviews without a chip on their shoulder as this writer seems to have.
- olympus 11y ago
  This advice should be given to everyone considering a MBA. I think the actual biggest flaw from this write-up is that it was written by a dropout (the caption on his picture states that he is a "former student" and not "graduate"). How can you evaluate the worth of an MBA without even completing it? If he had finished his MBA and then saw all the positions he interviewed for being given to graduates from the top schools then he might have realized a different lesson.
olympus 11y ago
Really I think the title should be: "If you can't get in to a prestigious business school you're probably better off saving your money" The quality of MBA programs vary drastically. An MBA from Phoenix (an online university) costs quite a lot and you will not be recruited into high paying positions. An MBA from MIT's Sloan School of Management also costs quite a lot, but you will be heavily recruited by big companies and offered nice salaries. The difference starts in the quality of their admissions. Phoenix University lets in anyone who can pay. MIT only lets in the top folks (who can also pay or can figure out a way for someone else to pay for them). Because MIT starts out with higher quality people they run a more rigorous program and the top businesses recognize that MIT graduates are worth more than graduates from diploma mills. There are other great business schools other than MIT, I'm just using them as an example. This phenomenon is also seen in the financial world, a finance degree from an Ivy league school is literally worth tens of thousands of dollars more than a public university because that is all the big financial firms want to hire. This might be confusing to people in the software world where you rise based on merit, but in the business world a degree is not just a piece of paper but a pedigree; and your pedigree matters a lot.
Dwolb 11y ago
My favorite description of an MBA is "summer camp for adults". Yeah you're not going to suddenly come out of an MBA as a master of the universe, but you're going to learn some cool topics, immerse yourself in your choice of extra-curriculars, meet some amazing people, and have a surprisingly enjoyable experience.
gregors 11y ago
Thinking about an MBA? - check out this guy instead https://www.harrisonmetal.com/ https://www.harrisonmetal.com/ Full disclosure - my company worked on his site.
evook 11y ago
EMBA here. Learned nothing I didn't already knew when enrolling, except for strengthening my opinion on ignoring certificates while hiring. In the end I wasted a lot of time and money to prove that I am able to waste a lot of time and money. I did it while working full time, so I probably wouldn't do it again. For my profession as an executive it would've been more valuable to get a Bachelor of Laws instead.
- ValentineC 11y ago
  > For my profession as an executive it would've been more valuable to get a Bachelor of Laws instead. How would knowledge of law, as opposed to having all-rounded knowledge of business administration and a network of people with similar backgrounds, help as an executive?
ssharp 11y ago
I have an MBA from a mid-tier school. Top 50 but not top 12. I don't really have any regrets other than I initially started at a third-rate school and decided to transfer after two semesters. The differences between the materials were negligible. The differences between professors was noticeable but not alarming. The differences between classmates was the part that was alarming. From talking with MBAs from top programs, I know their material wasn't substantially different either. So the value isn't entirely the material. It's functionally working with and learning from other smart and driven people. Class discussions are better, class projects are better, and you learn a lot watching others do the same work as you in different ways. My post-MBA job probably could have been gotten without an MBA. There could have been other things I did over those three years of evening classes to improve specific skills. However, having the MBA on my resume expands the types of companies that would hire me for senior management positions. A lot of job postings in my area are still MBA-preferred. It may not be like that in younger companies or higher-growth cities, so I understand why this type of content ends on on HN frequently.
- pc86 11y ago
  I used to work in health care and an MBA is a requirement for anything above the lowest rung of management.
steele 11y ago
The comments to this are surprisingly risk averse given the audience of people interested in technology & start-up culture.
sjg007 11y ago
Doubtful. Top programs are worth it. Sheryl Sandberg got an MBA, worked for the the US Treasury then went straight to VP at Google and then to COO of Facebook. Contrast this with starting your own company... The content of MBAs may be the same but the context appears to matter.
AdeptusAquinas 11y ago
Great article :) The same points could probably be made about a CompSci degree, or indeed any professional degree. I knew a lot of peers who graduated despite not really understanding programming (and getting others to do their assignments). And once out in the workforce, I've worked with developers with BA degrees who were more valuable than some of those with Masters
rdl 11y ago
Distance learning, self-funded, non-selective MBA dropout is basically the worst possible case. Pretty much the same as for-profit schools getting non-useful degrees (I might be ok with someone getting a medical tech degree or something like that, even at the cost of loans, from a non-selective for-profit school). Same as bottom-tier law schools for employability.
- FreedomToCreate 11y ago
  People may not want to accept this fact, because of there are examples of outliers that come to mind easily, but what school you attended can drastically change the job opportunities available to you. For example, in the engineering field, you can attend the University of Florida for electrical engineering and get a job at Google, but it will require you to be an outlier in regards to the amount of effort you put in to get that job because Florida is not known for its engineering dominance. On the other hand, someone who attends the University of Waterloo or Stanford from year one is getting badgered by Google, Apple, Microsoft recruiters, etc... for internships because those schools have outstanding reputations as engineering schools. On graduation, someone from Stanford has far less of a uphill battle to find a position they want, and there connections open up even more opportunities. This is even more true for MBAs. Had the author gone to Harvard or Stanford, the opportunity that MBA would have afforded him would have easily justified the 2 years it took to get it. There is more to this than just the value in money. For example, most people would rather work on cutting edge technology at a major corporation that pays less than some small engineering firm that says works on infrastructure projects. The major corporation will be looking for that top 20 MBA, and you will never have that opportunity (unless again you are an outlier) without that universities reputation to back you. And for those who say this may be discriminatory, just remember that it is very difficult to judge people in the late 20's or even early 30s on just pure experience and accomplishment because you are still very young career wise to have built up any notable portfolio of experience. That is why your educations is so critical.
raincom 11y ago
If you get admitted to HBS & Stanford GSB, go there. Wharton: 50/50, many Wharton MBA grads call it a MBAFactory these days. Other schools: they have morning MBA, evening MBA, weekend MBA, Dubai MBA, San Francisco MBA, International MBA, Exec MBA, etc. These schools are just minting like thousands of MBAs every year. Next time, expect your scrum master to be an MBA.
- pc86 11y ago
  I have seen LinkedIn profiles for "[Name], MBA, PMP, CSM"
Chefkoochooloo 11y ago
A Masters is not really needed unless you need it for your specific career, but in most cases a Bachlelor's gets you a starting career. In this economy and way of living, careers are getting hard to find and degrees give you an advantage over most. That isn't to say that you're guaranteed a career. Some don't need a degree because their communication skills get them through most of the process. Somewhere in between, however, they would have to get the knowledge somehow.
deleted 11y ago
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dikdik 11y ago
> Don’t be fooled. Do you need to pay thousands to meet middle managers from industries that you have no interest in? This line gave me a pretty good chuckle.
mcv 11y ago
I should tell my wife who's currently working on an MBA. But the experience from this article sounds very different from what my wife is going through. You can't do her MBA while working at a bar; you need to have a job at a significant company where you have access to financial data and other stuff. She does the assignments on her own, because she's got to do it in her spare time between job and family. I suppose her course is explicitly not aimed at regular just-after-highschool students, but at working professionals who need some extra theoretical foundation. Whether any specific class has new information for her varies wildly. The challenge seems to be more in the right way to write a research paper than in the actual subject matter, though translating financial and bookkeeping between English (from the books) and Dutch (everywhere else) can also be a challengen.
MichalSikora 11y ago
In my opinion is true that, for just be entrepreneur you do not need MBA level. Yes, of course in any high level of Corp or big well organised company it is helpful (especially when company hires 1k peoples). But when you started as little start-up, with few friends for it is needless.

228 points by reqres 11y ago

d0mme 11y ago

Problem: In e.g. Germany you need these papers to get access to some jobs, without you won't get them or nearly only 1% will have chance to get it. There's no job guarantee with it, but still...

merb 11y ago
You don't. At least not by every job. It's more like 99% could get a job without a MBA. If everybody will be a master, everybody will also want to get a higher grade in his job, which couldn't work, so you need normal developers as well. The only thing you will get a lot less than a MBA. When you would get the job of a MBA you will mostly get the same money he will get even when you have 5 years of experience.
gnaddel 11y ago
Are you talking about MBAs or M.A./M.Sc. degrees in related fields? Personally, I do not even consider MBAs to be much of "a thing" in Germany. Yes, there are some prestigious universities offering them (St. Gallen comes to mind) but many people still have not moved on to the Bologna System from the good old "Diplombetriebswirt" in their hearts, let alone MBAs.
- occamrazor 11y ago
  Just a remark: St. Gallen is in Switzerland, not in Germany
- merb 11y ago
  Especially Bachelor. In my company we see Bachelors on the same level as people with just a "Ausbildung" in computer science. I also don't have a MBA or Bachelors and still got some job offers. It's just what you do. Actually in germany you can get a job really fast if you are into Scala / Java. Actually it won't make you rich, but it's good work and in Berlin there are a lot of companies searching for Scala Developers.
- merb 11y ago
  Especially Bachelor. In my company we see Bachelors on the same level as people with just a "Ausbildung" in computer science. I also don't have a MBA or Bachelors and still got some job offers. It's just what you do. Actually in germany you can get a job really fast if you are into Scala / Java. Actually it won't make you rich, but it's good work and in Berlin there are a lot of companies searching for Scala Developers.

moonshinefe 11y ago

I think a lot of people are realizing that you don't need to get dozens of thousands of dollars in debt to get a quality education. Dedication counts. Sometimes you just need to know the right people or get your foot in the door as a lower level employee who can learn it in the real world. I know a surprisingly high amount of people who hold less than a 4 year bachelor's in Comp Sci or related who now hold significant positions in major companies.

arethuza 11y ago

The people I've known who were successful who had MBAs seemed to use it as a way of signalling that they were serious about doing the whole "management" thing - which in a large organisations tends to mean that you stop doing whatever it is the the organisation actually does and focus on "management" stuff. NB Note that I am most definitely not criticizing the need for high level managers - someone does have to do it, just that I personally have no interested in doing it as I'm too interested in actually doing stuff rather than managing other people doing stuff. Edit: For the MBA track in a large organisation you probably are aiming at being at least the manager of the manager of the manager of the people who actually do stuff... ;-)

dreamfactory2 11y ago
Most of this is operations-oriented and wide open to attack from automation. MBA won't give you the creative solution orientation you need for strategy and in some ways you'd be better equipped for this with a training in the arts. (Can't remember if it was joel, yegge, or 37s that said that the ability to write is an excellent indicator of a hire but definitely true.)
eitally 11y ago
I feel obligated to note that the stuff good managers do is frequently as important as the stuff good makers do in well-managed organizations. You are not better or worse, just different from each other, providing different value to the company. Lots of MBAs take that route out of consulting because they hate consulting but don't know what to do next. The internships & connections they make during the program help them decide, and frequently these decisions are to jump into a completely different industry. I consider it an expensive, but helpful, way for overachievers to figure out what they want to do with their life, and signal to future employers that they're serious about it.
rconti 11y ago
This is roughly the way I feel about it, too. I think when I was younger, I was more naïve. MBAs were for useless management drones, and you can easily get promoted to a management role without one. Having gone through college, joined the industry, and then had friends who went on to business school, I'm seeing the MBA clan as more of an entirely different social strata. It's mostly signaling, but you move directly into higher-powered "important" roles that aren't really promotions over individual contributor work, but almost an entirely different industry.

smagch 11y ago

I'd quote an interesting point of view on MBA from Joi Ito's TED talk. Before the Internet, if you remember, when we tried to create services, what you would do is you'd create the hardware layer and the network layer and the software and it would cost millions of dollars to do anything that was substantial. So when it costs millions of dollars to do something substantial, what you would do is you'd get an MBA who would write a plan and get the money from V.C.s or big companies, and then you'd hire the designers and the engineers, and they'd build the thing. This is the Before Internet, B.I., innovation model. https://www.ted.com/talks/joi_ito_want_to_innovate_become_a_now_ist/transcript?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/joi_ito_want_to_innovate_become_a_...

anu7df 11y ago

While I agree that this premise may be true for many, it really depends on the individual. Also a distance MBA is not worth it, almost never. It looks like the author went into a poor program, ill prepared and had to drop out. Generally a top MBA will put you on a quick rising career path. Whether you are happy in that path, well.. That's another matter. MBA doesn't guarantee you will rise in that path either. You may, if you are good. The degree just gives you a shot at it. A poor article by usual economist standards.

chkuendig 11y ago
Yeah, pretty sure the whole thing looks different if you get your MBA at HBS, INSEAD, IMD, LBS etc. (you don't have to fund 100% out of pocket, it actually is for the elite, depending on your career goals you probably want to meet those people, and while it wont make you genius, you probably get some valuable experiences)

mcbrown 11y ago

I will generalize his argument, since it's not really about MBA's: "If you make major life decisions against your clear preference in a vague effort to please your parents, you will probably regret it."

ldd 11y ago
I think that you should add: "Listen to your parents when you have to make minor life decisions". Way too many people either try too hard to please their parents, or ignore their advice entirely. With time, you learn to not swing too much either way.

sean_the_geek 11y ago

upvoted because I loved the honesty! I am 30 something and these are the exact sort of reasons which are holding me back from pursuing MBA. I have met people who have NOT done MBA (or any formal management education FTM) and are running successful businesses or are in management positions in good corporations. And I have met MBAs who are doing the job I would not consider if I have an MBA. I guess the point is to do it for right reasons. Like when you want to switch career to a new field and MBA can be your gateway. Having an MBA does not guarantee a high salary or that coveted management position IMHO.

cm2187 11y ago
And a lots of what is taught in these MBAs (or all these Agile, Scrum & co for that matter) are essentially substitutes for common sense.
IkmoIkmo 11y ago
I'd say, if your company offers (a track) to an MBA, take it. It's free, often partly in company time (get paid to study, partially), puts you on the fast-track to succession with HRM, sends a signal to any future employers that your previous employer marked you as a high-potential, worthy of investing in. I also recommend doing a Master's in a business field if you're 22 or so in a country where it makes sense. e.g. in continental europe it's pretty common to do a 3y bachelor from 18 to 21, and a 1y master's. The 1y master is a relatively small investment, and e.g. in the Netherlands where most unis are ranked top 100 worldwide, the cost of a 1y master's is about $2k. In 19/20 cases (making up a number), the added value of the learning/status/grit of this 1 year experience outweights the $2k+Opportunity-cost of spending this 1 year instead of working, it's an easy decision. For anyone else? e.g. self-funding a $100k program, spending 1-3 years and having to forgo work (without company support) when you're in your 30s, probably not a great idea, on average. At that point the value is mostly learning, at a huge cost. And in my experience, self-study vs college-study in the field of business is terrific. The resources for self-study are gigantic, lots of great books, youtube videos per topic and entire courses from Harvard or MIT are online, including online testing environments where you can do exams, and lots of cases that you can buy and work through, all at a 1% cost of an expensive MBA. It's not exactly the same, particularly for a few business schools which are actually great and add value, but it's pretty damn close in most cases.

puranjay 11y ago

MBAs are going the way of the law degree. Unless you are from a top 15 college, it's not worth it.

ssharp 11y ago
Not remotely true, though any ridiculously broad statement like probably won't be true.
- puranjay 11y ago
  When you break it down, it might not be true for some cases. But for the average guy with a 3.4 GPA considering going to law or b-school to get a better job - the vast majority of applicants - it's probably not a good decision

spacecowboy_lon 11y ago

Depends if your gaming the immigration system having a masters helps

an4rchy 11y ago
Are you talking about specific countries? I know that it's only for STEM specializations (in countries like US), which doesn't cover an MBA.
- Havoc 11y ago
  Many countries award a lot more immigration "points" to a masters than say a bachelors (regardless of field). So in general if you're planning to move you need an M
- desdiv 11y ago
  Any masters gives you an edge when applying for the H-1B visa: >An advanced degree exemption is available for the first 20,000 petitions filed for a beneficiary who has obtained a U.S. master’s degree or higher. [0] [0] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/h-1b-fiscal-year-fy-2016-cap-season https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...
nibnib 11y ago
Seems like an awful return. Surely there are faster, easier, cheaper Masters degrees if you just want to enter a country?

cm2187 11y ago

The article should probably be renamed "Why enrolling for an MBA to please my parents was not a good idea". MBAs make sense in some cases. It's a good way to change career path. Bankers and consultants use it as a break after two or three hellish years as a junior. Knowing all these middle managers in other industries is actually very useful, to keep an eye on what is going on or sell them stuff, and providing opportunities for future career changes. For others it is a way to "upgrade" a modest academic education. But enrolling in one of these things without having any clue of what to expect from it or just because of peer pressure is a waste of time and money. But the fault lies with the applicant.

hkmurakami 11y ago

A few years ago, I dropped out of a decent but not top level MBA program after a quarter. Putting together my own + my classmates + my college friends at top 5 programs, my takeaway is that the 3 main reasons to enroll in one are (1) to switch industries (or roles within an industry), (2) to take time off without leaving a hole in your resume (matters a lot in nontechnical fields), and (3) gain a particular network that you lack (ex: Wharton for finance, Stanford for SV, etc.). These reasons may sound trivial but for the right kind of person, the program can be a decent~good trade for their time and money opportunity cost. The "move up the corporate chain" thing used to be more true (ex: you need to have a MBA to move up past a certain rung in the org chart) but is increasingly less so today. These days, if you're good, you're good. A noteworthy might be the "in-between" phase after the 2 year consulting or finance analyst program, but a large fraction of this cohort fits into (1) above. The "learning" is nonzero but seems underwhelming and not anywhere near worth the funds you need to put up. Frankly if you know what you want to be doing in the future, imo you'll learn more by actually spending those 2 years actually working and doing those things (which was my main reason for dropping out). It may make more sense if you're a pretty bright person who doesn't really know what you want to do in the future but you do know that it isn't what you're doing now (ex: my journalist friends who saw the industry as a dead end). edit: Also it's unwise to bucket all programs as "MBAs" since each one can be surprisingly different in what they offer in terms of concrete benefits. edit2: For young professionals without a strong signaling institution thus far in their academic and professional careers, an MBA may be one of the more feasible options to get a mulligan in this regard. Say what you will about paying up for a signal, but it can pay off depending on the role and industry you're going for.

msellout 11y ago
It's more difficult than you might expect to change industries after an MBA. Your internships and employers will still look for relevant experience. The best method would be to use the MBA to join a large consulting firm. You'll still need to network internally and beg to be staffed on projects outside your historical specialty.
- hkmurakami 11y ago

binarymax 11y ago

Shout out to The Personal MBA. https://personalmba.com/ https://personalmba.com/

gedrap 11y ago
Can second that. Easy to read and covers the core topics, lives up to the expectation and the promises.

vacri 11y ago

Maybe not an MBA per se, but some business training is useful. I keep on seeing the simplest mistakes in startups, especially around invoicing (which is most visible to me in terms of business stuff). Invoices that don't have the name of the company or the product on them. Invoices that are dynamically generated when you view past history (= very susceptible to bugs). Invoices you can't really print a hardcopy of. Invoices without tax components. Invoices with totals in weird positions; without dates; without payment guides; with dates, but without invoice numbers. When it comes to business, invoices are one of the easiest things to get right, and yet so many fail. Makes you wonder about their business nous on other topics.

an4rchy 11y ago

I'm in the middle of the application process for an MBA, and have thought about this before (cost and time investment). An MBA is not a magical piece of paper that will guarantee success. However, it will definitely give you the resources and the network to change your trajectory. You still have to work really hard at it. At any of the top schools, there's more competition among the students for recruiting (for many coveted industries: e.g. IB, PE, Consulting, Tech etc) because that's where everyone wants to go. If you're pursuing something non-traditional then you might want to rethink the need to go to one of the top schools You're not guaranteed a position just by going to the school and there is definitely a bias towards a lot of bigger companies recruiting at only the Top 10-15 schools unless you can really network your way to the top. The MBA is just another data point people use to qualify your candidacy. It's all about risk management and just like there is a bias towards a Harvard/Stanford/MIT grad or Google/FB engineers (this is what a lot of startups list on their site) the MBA is an indicator. Outside of the brand, I still do think you learn a lot in the class setting (working with diverse teams who come from different backgrounds and the ability to work on projects and consult in industries you've never worked in is a great learning experience)

deleted 11y ago

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mathattack 11y ago

The article is a little bit misleading. It sounds like they went to a very 3rd tier program. I've interviewed plenty of people from these types of programs. Many of them list MBA on their LinkedIn tagline, which inadvertently highlights "University of Phoenix" or some other online program on the bottom. For most of these people, the MBA is worthless. Net - I think MBAs from non-top schools are worthless for most of the reasons the author suggested. But... There is value in specific fields for top degrees. More than half the people from top 6-8 programs who want to get into banking or elite consulting programs can get there. If you really want to work for Bain/BCG/McK and you recruit on campus from a top program, you have an ~50% shot depending on the market. If you don't have that top MBA, it's much lower. (Less than 2%?) Similar with front office jobs in investment banking. What about technology, which is what most people here care about? I see a disproportionate amount of non-engineering CEOs with Computer Science undergrads followed by MBAs from a small subset of schools. (Harvard and Stanford followed by a big drop, then Kellogg, Penn, Chicago Booth and Cal in the next tier - perhaps I'm missing one or two) The #s are very disproportionate to what these schools produce. Is it causation or correlation? Much harder to say. These are hyper-talented people. They have technical skills too. I suspect they get some benefit from the sorting mechanism in place, the network, and the confidence that they built. Good CS programs are much more academically rigorous than most MBA programs, so I don't think it's genius granted from the mountaintop. I've strongly advised people to avoid programs outside the top 20 for economic reasons. If someone else is paying for it, and you're interested in learning about business for it's own sake, sure. But the maximum NPVs accumulate only to the grads from the top few schools. In this sense, MBAs are much more similar to law degrees than technical degrees.

rbcgerard 11y ago
i think this info graphic from the FT illustrates your point pretty concisely...https://ig.ft.com/sites/mba-to-ceo/ https://ig.ft.com/sites/mba-to-ceo/
- mathattack 11y ago
  Yes. For once the infographic wins. :-) And it would be useful to point out how tiny a % of the workforce these schools produce.

ucaetano 11y ago

MBA here, you probably don't need an MBA. I went for it mostly to switch industries and geographies, as well as for the "learning" part, which I just find fun. It worked really well for me, but I had clear expected outcomes. The marginal value of an MBA degree is diminishing as the knowledge is easily available anywhere, but there are a few things which still count: - Network: unlike an usual MSc or PhD, an MBA class has 100's of people, and you spend a lot of time with them, building a very solid network - Switching functions or industry: it gives you a very good starting point. If you're an engineer, it will be hard to switch straight into marketing, PM, finance, etc. Doing an MBA, plus a summer internship in your target function will make a huge difference. - Switching geographies: the job marketplace for new MBA grads is global (visa issues in some countries aside), and salaries are usually similar globally, so it's a nice opportunity to chose where you to live moving forward - You're being sponsored: just do it, seriously, don't even think about it On the learning side, even if you can find all the stuff online, it makes a huge difference to discuss implications face to face with some brilliant professors. Here's the top stuff I learned: * How to constantly assess your own decision biases and compensate for it * Lot's of game theory and strategy applied to real world * Negotiations * You're not gonna beat the market, so don't even bother * How power is created and traded inside organizations

cushychicken 11y ago
Any book or article recommendations on the subject of how power is created and traded in organizations? I'm fascinated by the subject but don't know the first thing about it. (Like many engineers.)
- eitally 11y ago
  Start with Sun Tzu. :) Some people have an aptitude for diplomacy and it comes naturally. Others don't. Some are completely turned off by the entire concept that quality work can't stand on its own. Intuiting and playing the power dynamics in an organization is a critical skill for managers especially (and in particular if they want to set their teams up for success). You can read all the theory and case studies you want but if it doesn't come naturally and/or you don't have opportunities to practice, it's going to be tough to make inroads. You can almost imagine it like the current US presidential nomination process. All the candidates are shit, on both sides, but astute folks know it only matters a little bit because there are plenty of smart people behind the scenes who actually pull the strings and make the important decisions. Those are the career diplomats, who are supported by specialist analysts, who are in turn receiving data and insights from technical staff. One of the easiest ways to "improve" in this area is to start by trying to figure out what the corporate BD strategy is (as well as the entire industry sector), then try to learn what individuals' agendas are, and finally connect the dots and figure out what critical role you or your team can play in the context of the bigger pictures. That's business. Business is not the same as making things. Business is the practice of instilling confidence and trust in other people, ultimately convincing them to give you money for something they find valuable.

timwaagh 11y ago

they are the entry to the old boys network. i've got an uncle who had one of these. he really is not that smart but he's been to Nyenrode. so he just gets jobs from old pals, fails at them. repeat ad infinitum. still brings in a lot of cash. if i had decent netwroking skills i'd apply there too.

kriro 11y ago

Additionally, most MBAs I've researched a while back seem to be geared towards the ultra extroverted crowd. Harvard is the prototypical example. At the end of the day my cynical side says they are reasonably expensive (if you're at a good one and the people you meet are interesting) and overly long networking events. I guess they are geared towards people who want to work in corporations after all (and are usually sponsored by a company) but I can't help but think that taking the money and spending the time ramen-noodling some idea will teach you more valuable lessons. For the networking you could also wander around SV kungfu master style and talk to random people in coffee shops for a couple of units of time. It's basically all about the certification (more or less) which is what I'd say is a fundamental issue about education in general. You can self-learn a lot of things but not self-certify.

swingbridge 11y ago

The MBA seems very much geared towards creating the middle management layers that bloat many organizations. A class of people too low down to really influence change but too high up to actually do anything. Many companies are slashing such positions and that's only a good thing in my opinion. Be really go at "doing" stuff (as in owning and delivering output) and then as one advances they become able to inspire others to do stuff too and inflict positive change in a company. That's what makes a good manager, not an MBA. Also in my observation the people going for MBAs largely wanted to tick the "advanced degree" box but weren't in a position to get an advanced degree in a 'real' subject. That's what led to the mass proliferation of programs that has really significantly devalued the MBA overall.

eitally 11y ago
I would have agreed 100% before switching industries myself and seeing how helpful & productive ex-consultant MBAs can be in getting things done. It totally depends on the corporate culture and the roles these people are put in.

rtfmp 11y ago

I love this " You cannot impress Asian parents. Unhappiness is their default. And honestly, I believe they enjoy it."

rchaud 11y ago
The whole writeup suggested the writer had an enormous chip on his shoulder for some reason; turns out you had to read to the end to find out what it was. Honestly, it sounds more like he didn't get into a top MBA program, and is paying the price. MBA programs are like law schools; the cost-benefit hinges enormously on how well the program is regarded.

carlmcqueen 11y ago

Having gone the corporation route there are jobs that I don't go for because I don't have the desired degrees and without the degrees the job req. ask for twice as much experience without it. I've held off and have done well for it, often the job I wanted wasn't what it looked like and better opportunities came along with networking and aiming at the jobs I knew were great fits. Those I've spoken to have described Wash U in St Louis as mainly international students and a big group of bitter Boeing employees who don't get 100% of it paid for anymore like previous employees did. My company offers less than the cost of a single class for the entire year since there was no correlation with loyalty. I'm still torn though, always feels like the grass is greener on the other side.

lordnacho 11y ago

Well, there’s no reason to do an MBA if you are interested in learning the content. This is quite true, especially as people who write about business tend to be quite good at reaching people. I did a good part of an MBA as part of my engineering degree at a world class university in Britain. I can honestly say, engineering is much more taxing on the brain than business. It’s hard to even call it learning, when what you’re doing is just reading through some cleaned up summaries of what various businesses did. Mostly it seemed like storytime, with companies instead of fairies. You better watch out, or you’ll get leapfrogged! As if people in the old businesses hadn’t considered that. In general there was a lot of dressing things up as complicated when really the truth was probably that the firms did what they could with the information they had. Mintzberg probably sticks out as the best guy to describe how decisions are really made. Looking back, there was also a real lack of practical business skills being taught. The main thing I would teach is some form of agile management. Or any kind of practical how-to-organize a group to do something. Without a guide on the nitty gritty, you end up having a strange birds-eye view of the business, with no idea how to get towards your goal. In my career working practices have made the biggest difference to what strategies could be followed.

tixocloud 11y ago

MBA here as well. If you're thinking of an MBA, think really hard about why and if it's necessary to achieve your goals. For me, I knew what I wanted to get out of it so it turned out well. Knowledge about business is everywhere and you're far better off trying to start a business if you actually want to learn about business. What I got out of it was: - Networks: Great friends from many different industries and skill sets - Communication: Being tech and introverted, I learned how to communicate my ideas better. I've come to since realize that while your ideas might be the best, if you can't communicate it well, it's not going to be adopted. Also, different people require different communication styles. - Self-awareness and emotional intelligence thinking: Lots of group work - teammates might be shitty and don't do anything. Figured out how to identify who's going to do work and who's not and how we're still going to deliver despite being handicapped. - Strategy, frameworks, theories: Just helps with the thinking process. Helps me understand what executives are thinking about. - Confidence: Wasn't born with a lot with confidence but going through presentations day in and day out helped me develop that. I was able to switch from startups to large companies in different industries to get a greater understanding of the differences between the two. From this experience, it's no wonder why startups that try to sell to big companies usually have a tougher time than trying to sell to smaller companies (depending on industry of course).

j_s 11y ago
Do you have any experience with anything similar to Toastmasters? If so, do you think that Toastmasters is a good first step when considering the potential of an MBA? It seems to line up with several of the benefits you mention. http://www.toastmasters.org/ http://www.toastmasters.org/
- ucaetano 11y ago
  We had a class which was essentially toastmasters, so yeah, it really helps with the communication part.
- tixocloud 11y ago
  I do have experience with Toastmasters and it's a great step for sure. I would definitely recommend it as a more affordable alternative.

rchaud 11y ago

As opinion pieces go, I expect a lot better writing and research from someone employed by the Economist, even if they are an intern. This article could easily have been titled "Not all MBAs are created equal" and needed no further explanation. "Business schools constantly boast about the network students can tap into. Don’t be fooled. Do you need to pay thousands to meet middle managers from industries that you have no interest in?" I don't know about UK MBAs, but a cursory glance at the employment reports of any US MBA school will provide the names of companies that come on campus to recruit candidates. This is the first thing any prospective MBA student should be looking at when they're creating their shortlist of schools. If you are looking to get into consulting, those schools should have McKinsey, Deloitte, Accenture and the like on there. If you're interested in technology, Amazon, Google, Facebook etc. should be coming on campus. For finance, Goldman, JP Morgan, etc. An so on and so forth. If those names, or other high-profile names aren't on the list, you may not get your money's worth. An MBA has never been about the quality of the education you get, but rather about name recognition and how much pull the school has with recruiters. This is common knowledge for anybody doing even an hour's research into whether an MBA is right for them. That's the biggest flaw of this write-up. The writer appears to have done little to no research on his program before enrolling, and considers his support officer saying "you should have had all the money sorted" to be some sort of cold-world realization, which is absurdly irresponsible when you consider how much an MBA costs. I don't like using the word "entitled" to describe people, but I have to wonder about the conclusions he reaches about his teammates who didn't speak English well. They ended up in management consultancies, while he, the heroic working man struggling to teach them English, is interning at the Economist, a position that usually goes to undergraduates. Perhaps he should stop to consider that maybe they got their jobs because they attempted to network more, or simply showed up to their interviews without a chip on their shoulder as this writer seems to have.

olympus 11y ago
This advice should be given to everyone considering a MBA. I think the actual biggest flaw from this write-up is that it was written by a dropout (the caption on his picture states that he is a "former student" and not "graduate"). How can you evaluate the worth of an MBA without even completing it? If he had finished his MBA and then saw all the positions he interviewed for being given to graduates from the top schools then he might have realized a different lesson.

olympus 11y ago

Really I think the title should be: "If you can't get in to a prestigious business school you're probably better off saving your money" The quality of MBA programs vary drastically. An MBA from Phoenix (an online university) costs quite a lot and you will not be recruited into high paying positions. An MBA from MIT's Sloan School of Management also costs quite a lot, but you will be heavily recruited by big companies and offered nice salaries. The difference starts in the quality of their admissions. Phoenix University lets in anyone who can pay. MIT only lets in the top folks (who can also pay or can figure out a way for someone else to pay for them). Because MIT starts out with higher quality people they run a more rigorous program and the top businesses recognize that MIT graduates are worth more than graduates from diploma mills. There are other great business schools other than MIT, I'm just using them as an example. This phenomenon is also seen in the financial world, a finance degree from an Ivy league school is literally worth tens of thousands of dollars more than a public university because that is all the big financial firms want to hire. This might be confusing to people in the software world where you rise based on merit, but in the business world a degree is not just a piece of paper but a pedigree; and your pedigree matters a lot.

Dwolb 11y ago

My favorite description of an MBA is "summer camp for adults". Yeah you're not going to suddenly come out of an MBA as a master of the universe, but you're going to learn some cool topics, immerse yourself in your choice of extra-curriculars, meet some amazing people, and have a surprisingly enjoyable experience.

gregors 11y ago

Thinking about an MBA? - check out this guy instead https://www.harrisonmetal.com/ https://www.harrisonmetal.com/ Full disclosure - my company worked on his site.

evook 11y ago

EMBA here. Learned nothing I didn't already knew when enrolling, except for strengthening my opinion on ignoring certificates while hiring. In the end I wasted a lot of time and money to prove that I am able to waste a lot of time and money. I did it while working full time, so I probably wouldn't do it again. For my profession as an executive it would've been more valuable to get a Bachelor of Laws instead.

ValentineC 11y ago
> For my profession as an executive it would've been more valuable to get a Bachelor of Laws instead. How would knowledge of law, as opposed to having all-rounded knowledge of business administration and a network of people with similar backgrounds, help as an executive?

ssharp 11y ago

I have an MBA from a mid-tier school. Top 50 but not top 12. I don't really have any regrets other than I initially started at a third-rate school and decided to transfer after two semesters. The differences between the materials were negligible. The differences between professors was noticeable but not alarming. The differences between classmates was the part that was alarming. From talking with MBAs from top programs, I know their material wasn't substantially different either. So the value isn't entirely the material. It's functionally working with and learning from other smart and driven people. Class discussions are better, class projects are better, and you learn a lot watching others do the same work as you in different ways. My post-MBA job probably could have been gotten without an MBA. There could have been other things I did over those three years of evening classes to improve specific skills. However, having the MBA on my resume expands the types of companies that would hire me for senior management positions. A lot of job postings in my area are still MBA-preferred. It may not be like that in younger companies or higher-growth cities, so I understand why this type of content ends on on HN frequently.

pc86 11y ago
I used to work in health care and an MBA is a requirement for anything above the lowest rung of management.

steele 11y ago

The comments to this are surprisingly risk averse given the audience of people interested in technology & start-up culture.

sjg007 11y ago

Doubtful. Top programs are worth it. Sheryl Sandberg got an MBA, worked for the the US Treasury then went straight to VP at Google and then to COO of Facebook. Contrast this with starting your own company... The content of MBAs may be the same but the context appears to matter.

AdeptusAquinas 11y ago

Great article :) The same points could probably be made about a CompSci degree, or indeed any professional degree. I knew a lot of peers who graduated despite not really understanding programming (and getting others to do their assignments). And once out in the workforce, I've worked with developers with BA degrees who were more valuable than some of those with Masters

rdl 11y ago

Distance learning, self-funded, non-selective MBA dropout is basically the worst possible case. Pretty much the same as for-profit schools getting non-useful degrees (I might be ok with someone getting a medical tech degree or something like that, even at the cost of loans, from a non-selective for-profit school). Same as bottom-tier law schools for employability.

FreedomToCreate 11y ago
People may not want to accept this fact, because of there are examples of outliers that come to mind easily, but what school you attended can drastically change the job opportunities available to you. For example, in the engineering field, you can attend the University of Florida for electrical engineering and get a job at Google, but it will require you to be an outlier in regards to the amount of effort you put in to get that job because Florida is not known for its engineering dominance. On the other hand, someone who attends the University of Waterloo or Stanford from year one is getting badgered by Google, Apple, Microsoft recruiters, etc... for internships because those schools have outstanding reputations as engineering schools. On graduation, someone from Stanford has far less of a uphill battle to find a position they want, and there connections open up even more opportunities. This is even more true for MBAs. Had the author gone to Harvard or Stanford, the opportunity that MBA would have afforded him would have easily justified the 2 years it took to get it. There is more to this than just the value in money. For example, most people would rather work on cutting edge technology at a major corporation that pays less than some small engineering firm that says works on infrastructure projects. The major corporation will be looking for that top 20 MBA, and you will never have that opportunity (unless again you are an outlier) without that universities reputation to back you. And for those who say this may be discriminatory, just remember that it is very difficult to judge people in the late 20's or even early 30s on just pure experience and accomplishment because you are still very young career wise to have built up any notable portfolio of experience. That is why your educations is so critical.

raincom 11y ago

If you get admitted to HBS & Stanford GSB, go there. Wharton: 50/50, many Wharton MBA grads call it a MBAFactory these days. Other schools: they have morning MBA, evening MBA, weekend MBA, Dubai MBA, San Francisco MBA, International MBA, Exec MBA, etc. These schools are just minting like thousands of MBAs every year. Next time, expect your scrum master to be an MBA.

pc86 11y ago
I have seen LinkedIn profiles for "[Name], MBA, PMP, CSM"

Chefkoochooloo 11y ago

A Masters is not really needed unless you need it for your specific career, but in most cases a Bachlelor's gets you a starting career. In this economy and way of living, careers are getting hard to find and degrees give you an advantage over most. That isn't to say that you're guaranteed a career. Some don't need a degree because their communication skills get them through most of the process. Somewhere in between, however, they would have to get the knowledge somehow.

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dikdik 11y ago

> Don’t be fooled. Do you need to pay thousands to meet middle managers from industries that you have no interest in? This line gave me a pretty good chuckle.

mcv 11y ago

I should tell my wife who's currently working on an MBA. But the experience from this article sounds very different from what my wife is going through. You can't do her MBA while working at a bar; you need to have a job at a significant company where you have access to financial data and other stuff. She does the assignments on her own, because she's got to do it in her spare time between job and family. I suppose her course is explicitly not aimed at regular just-after-highschool students, but at working professionals who need some extra theoretical foundation. Whether any specific class has new information for her varies wildly. The challenge seems to be more in the right way to write a research paper than in the actual subject matter, though translating financial and bookkeeping between English (from the books) and Dutch (everywhere else) can also be a challengen.

MichalSikora 11y ago

In my opinion is true that, for just be entrepreneur you do not need MBA level. Yes, of course in any high level of Corp or big well organised company it is helpful (especially when company hires 1k peoples). But when you started as little start-up, with few friends for it is needless.