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Ghost in the Shell remains our most challenging film about technology

599 points by noir-york 11y ago

alexleavitt 11y ago
In fact, I would argue that Ghost in the Shell's entire franchise remains the most intriguing and exciting science fiction media about networked technology. If you have never seen the 2-season TV series (and 3 additional films), "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Stand_Alone_Complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Stand_Alon...), it is by far the best contemporary outlook on near-future internet technology still. Black Mirror is up there, but I think that Ghost in the Shell: SAC presents this cultural criticism in a much stronger (ie., less unhappy) tone.
- Tobold 11y ago
  Yes! I love SAC! The soundtrack is sooooo gooood! Don't forget about the prequel/reboot Ghost in the Shell: Arise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Arise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Arise)
  - deleted 11y ago
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- corysama 11y ago
  I saw a good talk by someone who worked on the TV series. He mentioned that the writers were big fans of American cop dramas. They wanted to make a cop drama where the cops happen to be cyborgs. Not a sci-fi that happened to feature cops. Anyway, much agreed. I think GitS:SAC is a much better predictive commentary than Black Mirror (of which I am also a fan). IHMO, it predicted Anonymous much better than I think most techies understand Anonymous today.
  - igrekel 11y ago
    Interesting, I used to think of the comparison between Anonymous and the "knights" in Serial Experiment Lain but now that you mention it, I now remember parts of it but feel I need to rewatch standalone complex.
    - corysama 11y ago
      Lain's "Knights" is closer to what Anonymous is portrayed to be. What SAC covers is closer to what Anonymous is.
      - nfbush 11y ago
        Tenuous, Anonymous is just a mask to get yourself media attention where Knights had organisation and skill. The only similarity I see is that people who associate with both groups use technology in attempt for social change.
        Jd 11y ago
        Anyone know if the "Knights" use lambda calculus? If so I don't think they are that similar to Anon. Knights seem more like a hacker elite where as Anon is more like a flash mob.
        pdkl95 11y ago
        Lain explicitly references the Knights of the Lambda Calculus. https://lain.wiki/wiki/Knights_of_the_Eastern_Calculus https://lain.wiki/wiki/Knights_of_the_Eastern_Calculus
        clevernickname 11y ago
        I think what corysama is getting at is that the "mantle of edgy script kiddies" Anonymous is very different from the "human flesh search engine" Anonymous.
        neltnerb 11y ago
- peter_l_downs 11y ago
  Do you have any other recommendations along the same vein? Literature, tv, mobies - I'm interested in absorbing more "near future" sci fi, particularly those that focus on identity issues. I had a lot of fun reading Stross's Accelerando and Vinge's Deepness series.
  - harshreality 11y ago
    Vinge's _Rainbows End_ (note that's the correct punctuation) is excellent and much more relevant to near-future than his Deepness series.
    - peter_l_downs 11y ago
      Awesome, thank you! Yeah, the Deepness series isn't near future really, but it's one of my favorites and ends up being referenced all the time on HN.
    - conceit 11y ago
      I don't see punctuation, only decoration
  - solipsism 11y ago
    Vinge's Deepness series certainly isn't "near future" science fiction, by your definition, is it? Anyway, give Diaspora by Greg Egan a shot. I'm not familiar with a more visionary story that challenges the most fundamental aspects of identity in so many ways. It's definitely not "near future" either, though.
    - Erikun 11y ago
      Egan's Permutation City is near future though, and pretty amazing that it was written in 1994 considering the topics.
  - SolaceQuantum 11y ago
    The Three-Body Problem by Liu Cixin is an excellent "near future" sci-fi that focuses on humanity's context and individual humans identifying with humanity. A good translation is available by Ken Liu.
- samstave 11y ago
  I've been all over cyberpunk culture forever, but I'd like you're personal viewing order, please provide.
  - Tobold 11y ago
    Not alexleavitt, but I'd go with this viewing order (for the whole franchise): * Ghost in the Shell: Arise - Alternative Architecture * Ghost in the Shell: The New Movie [sic] * Ghost in the Shell * Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence * Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex * Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd Gig * Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex - Solid State Society Not all of them are strictly speaking in the same universe, but afair this gives the most chronological feeling results ;)
    - samstave 11y ago
      craznappian: not available on netflix... I know all the many venues to grab these - any preferred method you'd recommend?
      - Tobold 11y ago
        If you know where to get them, you know as much as I do! The only "official" way seem to be the BDs.
      - rashkov 11y ago
        Hulu has a few of these
      - gknoy 11y ago
        Arise (parts 1, 2, and 3) are on Netflix. I had to use Wikipedia to tell which order they were in, until I read the descriptions more closely. This is a prequel, of how the characters came together. Stand Alone Complex is on DVD. I like it a LOT more than the movies, as it really portrays more characters as 3-dimensional than just the Major and her partner, Bateau. I don't know if it's on Amazon Video, but there's a decent chance of it.
    - 11y ago
- jerf 11y ago
  I also still think GitS is one of the best hard-core sci-fi things ever put to video, but I've generally considered the (first) film to be the weakest bit. I still like it, in much the same way I actually like Star Trek: The Motion Picture, but I think people generally cut it a lot of slack if it's one of the only Anime things they've ever seen for being "weird" and "Japanese" and "artistic", when in fact I think it's generally just sort of klunky, slow, and weirdly paced. This particularly comes out when you compare it to the TV series and the subsequent films, which are none of those things. Even when you might argue the film is trying to make a point, the TV series makes it much better. It also has contemplative moments and character pieces and shots that simply show city life and all of the things the movie has, but they are better integrated and paced much better. YMMV of course. (There was a time when "the anime canon" was Ghost in the Shell (the movie) and Akira; there is still some residual Thou Shalt Not Criticize attitude about for those two, but not much anymore, I think. GitS does fare rather better 20 years on than Akira, which I believe modern consensus is that it is just one big mess, which I thought even when I saw it in 2001 or so. A landmark, yes, but still a mess.) Highly, highly recommend the TV series. I'd suggest starting there (they are technically different continuities that just happen to have similar characters, so you will miss no story), and circling back around to the movie if you still want more.
  - Retric 11y ago
    GitS was very straightforward and understandable while introducing lot's of new concepts to many people. That's harder than you might think. IMO, it suffers from the Seinfeld effect where you can't watch it in context, because you have seen so many derivative things. PS: Even 2001 was late as it was released in 1995 when only around 40 million people world wide had been on the internet. http://royal.pingdom.com/2011/03/31/internet-1995/ http://royal.pingdom.com/2011/03/31/internet-1995/
    - jerf 11y ago
      "it suffers from the Seinfeld effect where you can't watch it in context, because you have seen so many derivative things." Actually, I think it's the exact opposite. By no means do I consider myself an "otaku", but when I started counting up the things I've seen I got to over a couple dozen each of television series and movies before I stopped counting. That's nothing in some circles, but it's enough that I'm well over the "frisson" of watching something in a foreign language or with subtitles, and I can separate out that element from the underlying movie. And as it happens I rewatched it again last year, and I'd still say it's klunky, slow, and weirdly paced. I don't think those criticisms are likely caused by the Seinfeld effect. The story of the movie is still quite good, and the story is why I'm serious about swinging back around to it if you want more because it is worth it, but if I'm going to recommend something to somebody for their first time out I'd still much more highly recommend the TV series.
- ThomPete 11y ago
  Agree. It's the "movie" thats closest to a phi-sci-fi movie. It's philosophical without being lecture. Beautifully weaves thoughts about networked society into an action packed and aesthetically pleasing bombardment of the senses.
- dclowd9901 11y ago
  Beat me to it. The SAC series is heady, intriguing, creative, imaginative, political and amazingly well written. I know anime has some connotations, but really if you like Philip K Dick style sci fi intrigue, it's a worthy watch.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  GITS has a long story. It started as a Manga, whos author was a big fan of western philosophy (the ghost concept is supposedly lifted from Hegel's geist). Thing is that he was barely involved in the making of original movie, but heavily so with the TV series.
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  I only recently watched Ghost in the Shell for the first time. I have no idea how I missed it all these years. I also had no idea about the follow ons you posted. Excited to watch them now. On another note, Black Mirror is great but it doesn't even exist in the same realm as Ghost in the Shell. In 1989 we had a much less developed idea of the consequences of future technologies. The ideas presented in the original Ghost in the Shell are basically just rehashed in Black Mirror. I remember how mind blowing I found the Matrix when I first saw it (I would say it's probably the only futurist movie that changed my outlook on the world) however after watching the original Ghost in the Shell I realised that it was just a reinterpretation.
  - jcoffland 11y ago
    On that note, I found the Animatrix even better than the Matrix movies. It's anime more along the lines of GitS.
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      I wonder if by being animated rather than actors and FX, it slips past the whole "uncanny valley" effect. Meaning that our subconscious stops nitpicking, and our conscious can therefore fully engage with the message.
      - colordrops 11y ago
        The uncanny valley was intentional in the Matrix films.
- chaostheory 11y ago
  Yeah the TV series for Ghost in the Shell is way better than all the movies. You just can't fit the entire manga in 2 hours.
- logicrook 11y ago
  Although there are major differences between the movie and SAC. The two movies are strongly influenced by Mamoru Oshii's ideas, to the point of contradicting Shirow's point of view on certain subjects. SAC is much closer to the author's intent, but can feel at time like a clumsy homage to the source material. If you haven't, read them, as well as the hit-and-miss sequel Man-machine interface, and Appleseed (which unfortunately has been tarnished by terrible adaptations).
  - deleted 11y ago
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- Kiro 11y ago
  Should I watch the films or the series first?
  - anc84 11y ago
    Just go with their release dates.
  - Ftuuky 11y ago
    The films then the series.
    - ZenoArrow 11y ago
      I'd say it was fine to skip the second film (Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence), I remember it being a bit lacklustre in terms of the story and pacing. The first film is definitely worth a watch though.
      - Ftuuky 11y ago
        GitS2 is actually my favorite after the original film. Then the manga and only after the SAC and Arise.
      - underbluewaters 11y ago
        I really enjoyed the second film when I first saw it. The scene with Batou invading the ship with augmented-reality map support was amazing. I watched it recently though, and it just didn't really hold up. I'm not quite sure what it was. Maybe the ideas just weren't as innovative anymore? I think the first film stands up a lot better.
- krylon 11y ago
  SAC completely blew my mind, in a way. At the time, animation - from my perspective - was for kids, and seeing somebody use that medium to tell an elaborate and intelligent story was quite overwhelming initially.
newman314 11y ago
As much as I love GITS, I feel like so much of Minority Report is prescient to much of what we are seeing now or starting to see, from pre-crime to the personalized advertising. And that is scary.
- justinjlynn 11y ago
  The Minory Report vision of pre-crime is indeed scary. However, we're already using analytics to prevent conditions which encourage criminal behaviour or increase risk of victimisation. I believe it's a question of implementation. Just as with stereotypes, these systems of generalisation can be useful but when applied to individuals they can be disastrous. Extending the metaphor, you can view racism as the extension of (positive as well as negative) stereotypes to the individual. For me, the future vision of hyper-personalised advertising and 'clienteling' is in many ways, far more insidious than any overt Big Brother-type figure lurking in guises such as that of Minority Report's pre-crime division. I found Huxley's vision - a world in which we, as a populace, are distracted from truthful experience and thus controlled by being overloaded with the experiences we love - to be enormously more terrifying than a world where we are controlled by what we fear. If you think of this type of control in the context of an abusive relationship, then it becomes clear how many more people would be vulnerable and how few would be willing to leave even if they did realise the truth of their situation. You need far more control and fear to manipulate people than you need if you employ loyalty. If you can get people to love you, they imprison themselves.
  - newman314 11y ago
    I dunno. I would say Trump seems to be doing a good job taking advantage of people's (misplaced?) fears. Incidentally, John Oliver had a great bit on Drumpf but the comments I've seen so far run along the lines of "F*uck you, you just be hating" by people that don't seem to have even bothered watching the whole segment. I find this infuriating. It's okay to disagree but dammit, at least take time to get educated before outright dismissing things. /rant
    - justinjlynn 11y ago
hit8run 11y ago
I read ghost in the shell and was in the same moment reminded to Wamdue Project - King of my castle. The music video was done with Ghost in the Shell scenes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwdlqquJDK4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwdlqquJDK4
- asymmetric 11y ago
  Well that's not actually the original video, just a YouTube user's creation. This is the original one: http://youtu.be/DXSyQjppqG0 http://youtu.be/DXSyQjppqG0
  - muuck 11y ago
    I remember the gits version being shown on TV all the time. I've never seen the version you've just posted. EDIT: This is not the GITS version shown on tv. The TV video only had footage of the tank scene.
lostmsu 11y ago
I personally believe Transcendence has the most realistic future (if you exclude humanity at the very end of it).
Adam_O 11y ago
I liked the GITS SAC series a lot because of how well they balanced the action plot points with discussion about technology, security, politics and philosophy. Overall I'd struggle to think of another series which strikes that balance so well.
jessaustin 11y ago
It's been some time since I read anything on this site but I have to ask: did they decide on the hero graphic, and then also decide they had to code up a method to keep that nipple covered unless the reader really wanted to see it? That's too funny.
beloch 11y ago
A warning for those thinking of re-watching (or watching for the first time!) Ghost in the Shell: Avoid the "Ghost in the Shell 2.0" edition of this film, which was released on Bluray a few years back. For this version, it was decided to "upgrade" the original film with new CG elements, very much in the same mindset as George Lucas and Star Wars. You might think it reasonable for someone to go back, identify weaker scenes in the original, and then attempt to fix the results of budget and time limitations. This is what Lucas did, and even that was divisive for fans. However, that's not what happened in the case of "Ghost in the Shell". Instead, they redid the same big, expensive, gloriously detailed moments that the original splurged on. The result is that some of the film's best shots are replaced with poor quality CG that is jarringly out of place. On the whole, "Ghost in the Shell 2.0" makes George Lucas look restrained, respectful, and subtle. Oh, and for some reason they ripped out the U2 credits song too. If you liked that track you might miss it. The 25th anniversary version that recently came out is apparently the theatrical version, so that would be a better bet, although I cannot guarantee it's good personally (I haven't seen it yet).
- MrGando 11y ago
  Totally agree, mentioned that too. The 3D stuff is horrible, just try to watch the original version....
zipwitch 11y ago
There's also the original manga _Ghost in the Shell_ by Masamune Shirow (first published back in 1991), and it's two sequels _Vol 2. Man-Machine Interface_ and _Vol 1.5. Human-Error Processor_, published in 2001 and 2003 (years later in the US). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell_%28manga%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell_%28manga%29 Like a lot of GitS media, they're unique and don't mesh perfectly with the others, but if you like SAC, you'll probably like them. A lot of scenes are echoed between the various OAVs and the manga, especially the first.
chromaton 11y ago
I saw two of the series and liked the plot, action, setting, etc. That said, I didn't appreciate the title conceit and thought the stories got weak whenever they approached it. There is no ghost in the shell, not in the real world. A person's thoughts, character, and emotions come from neurons, hormones, and sensory input. There's no way to take a person's unique consciousness out of their body, keep it in a jar, and move it somewhere else. At best it might be possible to emulate someone's brain, but that's not what they did in Ghost in the Shell.
- forgotmysn 11y ago
  i think they are referring to the self in the philosophical sense. if you only see things in a literal light, the world will seem very narrow.
- ramses 11y ago
  I agree, there is no ghost. Consciousness is an emergent behavior of those elements: neurons, their interconnections, neurotransmitters, etc. However, in theory it may be possible to reproduce those elements down to a molecular level, allowing the emergence of the "original" consciousness from new matter. So, if you imagine that "ghost" is metaphorical speak to, say, to summarize, the film is not strictly wrong.
- XorNot 11y ago
  That was kind of the point of the idea though - it's a world on the precipice of digitizing consciousness - but they haven't yet achieved it. The series has at its core that question.
- yarou 11y ago
  That was the whole point of the series, though. Is the Major the same Major as she was at the beginning of the film?
  - joshguthrie 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
MrGando 11y ago
I watched the original in 1995. It is a masterpiece, have rewatched many many times, always great. The remastered version with 3D is horrible though. The Stand Alone Complex is way more pop-corn material, also easier to digest, didn't really like it very much. The original film's pace is closer to a Tarkovsky film... Slower, more profound, poetic at times.
snake_plissken 11y ago
I just finished up watching almost all of Ghost in the Shell, from the original movie to Stand Alone Complex; I still need to re-watch Innocence. Originally I'd gotten into it back when I was a wee teen in the early/mid 2000s, and I hadn't completely understood the topics and commentary then. It was just cool action sequences with intriguing characters and an engaging story. All I can say now is, wow; the series is on-point. It's top tier sci-fi, up there with the likes of Neuromancer and Blade Runner. SAC is awesome and I liked it the most, since it has some really nice side episodes that expand on the world, like the one where the one Tachikoma's (a Tachikoma being this spider like mech with a nascent AI) neural net starts to develop beyond its parameters due to some "natural oils", but the whole series is amazing. Just don't watch the original video animation things (OVA), which are basically two movies that each are amalgamations of Stand Alone Complex's two seasons. Not only is Batou's voice different, they don't do SAC any justice. Those things should be banned.
- mercurial 11y ago
  Oh dear. I watched Innocence with a friend when it came out, and to this I don't have any idea of what it was trying to say. I liked GitS very much, as well as the first season of SAC, despite the oversexualization of the main character (ugh fan service).
  - bsder 11y ago
    Yeah, I consider Innocence to be the most visually interesting (some of the scenes are just gorgeous), but it was kind of a mess in terms of story.
  - justifier 11y ago
    innocence is brilliant one of those rare occasions where the sequel is just as good as the original but for completely different reasons > I don't have any idea of what it was trying to say. i am guessing this is in response to the way the characters have entire conversations with only referencing abstract quotes.. and to this i have to say i like this kind of dialogue if you do too, i would recommend the mid century new wave, specifically jean luc godard.. there is a sac episode in homage to him as well so perhaps my seeing similarities is more than coincidence.. stuff like pierrot le fou and notre musique are heavy with these quotation dialogues if you dislike this sort of writing style, may i suggest some ways to enjoy it more: you could watch the film like you would read a book, maybe a chapter a night spread out over a few nights to give you time to digest your mind's philosophical ramblings, and allow you to flip back and forth to track context also, or, you could get a list of all of the quotes used in the film from their original authors and read them, considering their meanings, before watching the film it can be frustrating to try to keep up with abstract concepts and poetic structures when you have the time frame subtitles afford by reading the quotes before hand you will recognise immediately what is being said and be able to consider the context of your understanding of its meaning within its placement in the film having one character dismiss another by answering a question using a quote from a 19 century poet, then later have another character, absent from the original scene implying omnipresence, recycle that quote in a completely different context and then also finish the rest of the quote altering its meaning is masterful writing spoilers from the original 1995 film ahead: it is rare to see someone take something as brilliant and successful as the 1995 ghost and decide to make a sequel completely abandoning the original's main character and themes to focus the main thread on a support character from the original innocence is the story of how those left behind deal when a respected person leaves and how that void pulls all of them around batou in innocence is a different batou from gits, in the absence of the major he begins to take on the inquisition that made the major so powerful, and this worries everyone else in the same way batou was worried about the major in gits batou's mirroring of the major's personality is only able to be relieved to his own personality again due to the event at the end of the film what oshii did with innocence is commendable i think all of the ghost material is masterful and great fodder for staring out of windows "mirrors are meant to be looked down on; stead looked into" .Ryokuu Saitou
ptrincr 11y ago
If you're going to watch the film for the first time, which you should as its awesome, don't watch the dubbed version. Make sure you watch it with subtitles.
- Wildgoose 11y ago
  That pretty much goes for any movie or anime, I would say. One exception would be the English version of the childrens show "Magic Roundabout" which I believe was originally a French political satire. The English version just watched the show and then made up a story to go along with what was happening on screen. I presume Zebedee was meant to be a caricature of de Gaulle but if I am mistaken I am sure somebody will correct me. :-)
  - aninhumer 11y ago
    My understanding is that it's true that the English version was not based on the original script, but the original French was still just a children's show.
  - anc84 11y ago
    Some of the Ghibli movies are dubbed wonderfully.
  - fennecfoxen 11y ago
    > That pretty much goes for any movie or anime, I would say. The possible exception would be Steins;Gate; I contend that the mad-scientist ranting sounds better in your native tongue. (I am aware of the position that it's somewhat less authentic and will concede that the English version of Mayuuri's tu-tu-ruu is of lower quality.)
    - stordoff 11y ago
      I'm generally not too bothered about sub. v. dub, but for some reason I find Steins;Gate in English to be really jarring. Not sure why, but I feel like the voices don't really fit the characters in the dubbed version.
Cyph0n 11y ago
GitS is undoubtedly one of the best hard sci-fi universes ever conceived. The series Stand Alone Complex is in my opinion the high point of it all. It tackles such a large variety of deep societal issues that do not yet exist in a very effective way. One thing that makes the series top-notch for me is the original soundtrack, composed by the great Yoko Kanno. I mean, wow, some of songs are gems, with lyrics that are deeper than most songs I've heard. Be Human: https://youtu.be/fDtLpCzKqkQ https://youtu.be/fDtLpCzKqkQ Living Inside the Shell: https://youtu.be/YSj91yopjDg https://youtu.be/YSj91yopjDg If you're a fan of sci-fi, be sure to watch the series at least.
deleted 11y ago
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jokoon 11y ago
Except this GITS movie and Ex Machina, there are no other movie who really has a good, serious talk about AI. Matrix don't even come close to that in that regard. The whole "What is human intelligence if it can live inside a machine? What if AI can actually be smarter than us? And by the way, how to define and measure intelligence ?" questions is really fascinating. The GITS movie will always my ultimate favorite movie, not only because it's brilliantly directed, but because that seems to exactly be what AI scientists are trying to do. It also raises good question of psychology: how does a brain work, and can we heal mental illnesses? We might never know and we might wait 300 years or more to figure it out.
- colechristensen 11y ago
  The Animatrix was better but still really treated the politics of AI more than the actual thing. The sequels could have been spectacular but they concentrated on blowing shit up with cool effects instead of the intellectual parts.
- draugadrotten 11y ago
  > Except this GITS movie and Ex Machina, there are no other movie who really has a good, serious talk about AI. The movie "Her" has a different take on what it is like with being an AI, and I liked it.
  - atom-morgan 11y ago
    I agree. Throughout the entire movie I kept thinking, "Damn. I'd have feelings for that girl really quick." And it was just a voice.
NicoJuicy 11y ago
If you like series about technology, try out 'Black Mirror' on netflix... It has some interesting approaches... Eg. What could happen if there exists a chip that stores all your memories. Is it good or bad? :-)
- draugadrotten 11y ago
  I would caution against Black Mirror. I felt it was mostly about tabloid style shock value and not about technology. Especially the first episode was just awful - e.g. the pig fucking scene.
  - slfnflctd 11y ago
    I watched the first three episodes. Every single one had a primary focus of intense sexual shame or violation, and they all ended in just about the most miserable way possible. It was extremely well done, but some of us have enough negativity in our lives without piling more on in our rest & relaxation time. I might have gone on if they were alternating the pattern or something, it was simply too much of one ugly core theme for me.
    - ionised 11y ago
      There is one consistent theme throughout Black Mirror, and that is 'we are so close to this being the world we live in, given one or two missteps'. The series was never intended to be positive in any way. It's supposed to be a kind of terrifying warning.
jhildings 11y ago
On a side note, a manga that also takes up this subject but is set more far in the future is Battle Angel Alita , that is about a cyborg with a human brain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Angel_Alita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Angel_Alita
noir-york 11y ago
I'm glad to see that GiTS has inspired such a discussion and so many comments. Its a masterpiece of story telling, futurism and the challenges facing society, not just robotics/AI but also demographics (Solid State Society). I still get goose bumps every time I watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsIQ_kA77b4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsIQ_kA77b4
- te0x 11y ago
  Have you watched all of it? I want to get into it but am not sure where to start. If you had to choose 1-2 seasons of TV and a few films, which ones would you watch?
  - noir-york 11y ago
    Yes of course! I've indeed watched all of them. For the purest GiTS experience I would just watch the first three films GiTS (1995), Innocence, and Stand Alone Complex. GiTS 2.0, in an attempt at improving the graphics, ruined the original feel. I watched the TV series - not bad, but not the masterpieces of story telling that the 3 films are. But who cares what I think - what them all, and form your own conclusions :)
- joshguthrie 11y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK8V9jG7Wjg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK8V9jG7Wjg This one gives it to me every time.
teekert 11y ago
Puppet Master: It can also be argued that DNA is nothing more than a program designed to preserve itself. Life has become more complex in the overwhelming sea of information. And life, when organized into species, relies upon genes to be its memory system. So, man is an individual only because of his intangible memory... and memory cannot be defined, but it defines mankind. The advent of computers, and the subsequent accumulation of incalculable data has given rise to a new system of memory and thought parallel to your own. Humanity has underestimated the consequences of computerization. Edit: Just a quote, to show my fellow HN-ers that these are must-watch movies.
- Ygg2 11y ago
  Except we don't have self replicating code that is built by itself. Until that happens, we don't have anything resembling life.
- cgh 11y ago
  No offence but this quote seems a bit trite? I watched this movie years ago but I don't really remember it. Did it predict smartphones? That's kind of a litmus test.
  - teekert 11y ago
    I just want to emphasize the philosophical nature of the film. It really makes you think.
  - corysama 11y ago
    The main characters are mostly cyborgs. They speak to each other remotely through telepathy-style wireless SSL-of-the-future. Remote exploits of people's heads are rare in the world canon, but are a focus of the story. So, they are a frequent topic of the series.
lololomg 11y ago
"In the near future - corporate networks reach out to the stars. Electrons and light flow throughout the universe. The advance of computerisation, however, has not yet wiped out nations and ethnic groups."
VeejayRampay 11y ago
Serial Experiments Lain wasn't too bad either.
rhubinak 11y ago
If you are interested in GiTS and also are an occasional gamer, I would strongly recommend to give Deus Ex a try. The story of the first game deals with similar themes as GiTS.
- saiya-jin 11y ago
  well it is considered by many, mayyyybe including me, the best computer game made. ever. definitely up there in the pantheon
- ionised 11y ago
  Best game ever made. No question in my mind.
protomyth 11y ago
side topic and NSFW: https://vimeo.com/96621373 https://vimeo.com/96621373 is a interesting attempt to do the front sequence in a live action video. They do a good job, and it is as NSFW as the original. I do wonder how the hollywood version will mess up this movie.
Confusion 11y ago
I'm very surprised by the responses. GitS made no sense to me whatsoever. I did not understand the plot or the world. Now I'm wondering whether I perhaps saw some 'wrong' version that indeed did not make sense.
- hnbroseph 11y ago
  appropriate username :-)
- andrewulrich 11y ago
  I was also thrown off by this movie. I remember watching it in college. It seemed very disjointed, throwing around a bunch of dialogue, vocab, characters, politics, etc. at me that seemed badly translated and only poorly if ever explained or described. Sure, plenty of eye candy and then some somewhat intriguing AI stuff at the end. Recently, I tried watching a couple episodes of SAC, and while it was easier to follow, it felt again like I was only understanding about half the dialogue. I am also told that it can be a little off-putting or disorienting to some because it is more concept-driven than plot-driven, which, in addition to being an awkward mashing together of the beginning and the end of the manga (manga wrangling seems in some form or other a common source of awkwardness in anime- e.g. Akira), is probably why it was hard for me to follow. To each his own, I suppose, but I think it's cool when you have both a well-told story AND intriguing concepts (e.g. Neuromancer, Gattaca, Blade Runner, etc.)
thrillgore 11y ago
Ghost in the Shell, the mangas, the two movies, SAC... are the kind of media that every home should have a copy of. Its not just prophetic, but really accessible and satisfactory from just a sheer nerdiness perspective, the same way Star Trek must have been to everyone in the 1960s.
alistproducer2 11y ago
I've never been an anime fan, but GITS remains one of my favorite movies of all time. Dat soundtrack tho.
nickpsecurity 11y ago
Good write-up on it. Probably one of its lasting effects was partial inspiration for The Matrix: the first, mainstream, "thinking-man's," action movie. It had audiences leaving with questions about themselves instead of just flat quotes from a movie. Had plenty of them, too. ;) Always wanted to see more of this genre. I know they're doing a live action Ghost in the Shell. Have mixed feelings about that. Nonetheless, I'd like to see more movies that have enough tropes and cultural tie-ins to be successful but throw in those GitS or Matrix-style element to really get people thinking. Most recent in get you thinking, but not mainstream, movies is Ex Machina. Whole movie, minus a few things, is essentially built on the acting and esp dialogue that questions reality. Kind of a budget film but I thought it was great. Just watch the movie not the trailers as there might be some spoilers in there.
treme 11y ago
To SAC fans * MAJOR SPOILERS * check out this fan theory on identity of laughing man. https://www.reddit.com/r/Ghost_in_the_Shell/comments/2j9p8j/theory_on_the_laughing_man/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Ghost_in_the_Shell/comments/2j9p8j/...
te0x 11y ago
I want to get into it but am not sure where to start. If you had to choose 1-2 seasons of TV and a few films, which ones would you watch?

599 points by noir-york 11y ago

In fact, I would argue that Ghost in the Shell's entire franchise remains the most intriguing and exciting science fiction media about networked technology. If you have never seen the 2-season TV series (and 3 additional films), "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Stand_Alone_Complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Stand_Alon...), it is by far the best contemporary outlook on near-future internet technology still. Black Mirror is up there, but I think that Ghost in the Shell: SAC presents this cultural criticism in a much stronger (ie., less unhappy) tone.

Tobold 11y ago
Yes! I love SAC! The soundtrack is sooooo gooood! Don't forget about the prequel/reboot Ghost in the Shell: Arise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Arise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Arise)
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
corysama 11y ago
I saw a good talk by someone who worked on the TV series. He mentioned that the writers were big fans of American cop dramas. They wanted to make a cop drama where the cops happen to be cyborgs. Not a sci-fi that happened to feature cops. Anyway, much agreed. I think GitS:SAC is a much better predictive commentary than Black Mirror (of which I am also a fan). IHMO, it predicted Anonymous much better than I think most techies understand Anonymous today.
- igrekel 11y ago
  Interesting, I used to think of the comparison between Anonymous and the "knights" in Serial Experiment Lain but now that you mention it, I now remember parts of it but feel I need to rewatch standalone complex.
  - corysama 11y ago
    Lain's "Knights" is closer to what Anonymous is portrayed to be. What SAC covers is closer to what Anonymous is.
    - nfbush 11y ago
      Tenuous, Anonymous is just a mask to get yourself media attention where Knights had organisation and skill. The only similarity I see is that people who associate with both groups use technology in attempt for social change.
      - Jd 11y ago
        Anyone know if the "Knights" use lambda calculus? If so I don't think they are that similar to Anon. Knights seem more like a hacker elite where as Anon is more like a flash mob.
        pdkl95 11y ago
        Lain explicitly references the Knights of the Lambda Calculus. https://lain.wiki/wiki/Knights_of_the_Eastern_Calculus https://lain.wiki/wiki/Knights_of_the_Eastern_Calculus
      - clevernickname 11y ago
        I think what corysama is getting at is that the "mantle of edgy script kiddies" Anonymous is very different from the "human flesh search engine" Anonymous.
      - neltnerb 11y ago
peter_l_downs 11y ago
Do you have any other recommendations along the same vein? Literature, tv, mobies - I'm interested in absorbing more "near future" sci fi, particularly those that focus on identity issues. I had a lot of fun reading Stross's Accelerando and Vinge's Deepness series.
- harshreality 11y ago
  Vinge's _Rainbows End_ (note that's the correct punctuation) is excellent and much more relevant to near-future than his Deepness series.
  - peter_l_downs 11y ago
    Awesome, thank you! Yeah, the Deepness series isn't near future really, but it's one of my favorites and ends up being referenced all the time on HN.
  - conceit 11y ago
    I don't see punctuation, only decoration
- solipsism 11y ago
  Vinge's Deepness series certainly isn't "near future" science fiction, by your definition, is it? Anyway, give Diaspora by Greg Egan a shot. I'm not familiar with a more visionary story that challenges the most fundamental aspects of identity in so many ways. It's definitely not "near future" either, though.
  - Erikun 11y ago
    Egan's Permutation City is near future though, and pretty amazing that it was written in 1994 considering the topics.
- SolaceQuantum 11y ago
  The Three-Body Problem by Liu Cixin is an excellent "near future" sci-fi that focuses on humanity's context and individual humans identifying with humanity. A good translation is available by Ken Liu.
samstave 11y ago
I've been all over cyberpunk culture forever, but I'd like you're personal viewing order, please provide.
- Tobold 11y ago
  Not alexleavitt, but I'd go with this viewing order (for the whole franchise): * Ghost in the Shell: Arise - Alternative Architecture * Ghost in the Shell: The New Movie [sic] * Ghost in the Shell * Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence * Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex * Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd Gig * Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex - Solid State Society Not all of them are strictly speaking in the same universe, but afair this gives the most chronological feeling results ;)
  - samstave 11y ago
    craznappian: not available on netflix... I know all the many venues to grab these - any preferred method you'd recommend?
    - Tobold 11y ago
      If you know where to get them, you know as much as I do! The only "official" way seem to be the BDs.
    - rashkov 11y ago
      Hulu has a few of these
    - gknoy 11y ago
      Arise (parts 1, 2, and 3) are on Netflix. I had to use Wikipedia to tell which order they were in, until I read the descriptions more closely. This is a prequel, of how the characters came together. Stand Alone Complex is on DVD. I like it a LOT more than the movies, as it really portrays more characters as 3-dimensional than just the Major and her partner, Bateau. I don't know if it's on Amazon Video, but there's a decent chance of it.
  - 11y ago
jerf 11y ago
I also still think GitS is one of the best hard-core sci-fi things ever put to video, but I've generally considered the (first) film to be the weakest bit. I still like it, in much the same way I actually like Star Trek: The Motion Picture, but I think people generally cut it a lot of slack if it's one of the only Anime things they've ever seen for being "weird" and "Japanese" and "artistic", when in fact I think it's generally just sort of klunky, slow, and weirdly paced. This particularly comes out when you compare it to the TV series and the subsequent films, which are none of those things. Even when you might argue the film is trying to make a point, the TV series makes it much better. It also has contemplative moments and character pieces and shots that simply show city life and all of the things the movie has, but they are better integrated and paced much better. YMMV of course. (There was a time when "the anime canon" was Ghost in the Shell (the movie) and Akira; there is still some residual Thou Shalt Not Criticize attitude about for those two, but not much anymore, I think. GitS does fare rather better 20 years on than Akira, which I believe modern consensus is that it is just one big mess, which I thought even when I saw it in 2001 or so. A landmark, yes, but still a mess.) Highly, highly recommend the TV series. I'd suggest starting there (they are technically different continuities that just happen to have similar characters, so you will miss no story), and circling back around to the movie if you still want more.
- Retric 11y ago
  GitS was very straightforward and understandable while introducing lot's of new concepts to many people. That's harder than you might think. IMO, it suffers from the Seinfeld effect where you can't watch it in context, because you have seen so many derivative things. PS: Even 2001 was late as it was released in 1995 when only around 40 million people world wide had been on the internet. http://royal.pingdom.com/2011/03/31/internet-1995/ http://royal.pingdom.com/2011/03/31/internet-1995/
  - jerf 11y ago
    "it suffers from the Seinfeld effect where you can't watch it in context, because you have seen so many derivative things." Actually, I think it's the exact opposite. By no means do I consider myself an "otaku", but when I started counting up the things I've seen I got to over a couple dozen each of television series and movies before I stopped counting. That's nothing in some circles, but it's enough that I'm well over the "frisson" of watching something in a foreign language or with subtitles, and I can separate out that element from the underlying movie. And as it happens I rewatched it again last year, and I'd still say it's klunky, slow, and weirdly paced. I don't think those criticisms are likely caused by the Seinfeld effect. The story of the movie is still quite good, and the story is why I'm serious about swinging back around to it if you want more because it is worth it, but if I'm going to recommend something to somebody for their first time out I'd still much more highly recommend the TV series.
ThomPete 11y ago
Agree. It's the "movie" thats closest to a phi-sci-fi movie. It's philosophical without being lecture. Beautifully weaves thoughts about networked society into an action packed and aesthetically pleasing bombardment of the senses.
dclowd9901 11y ago
Beat me to it. The SAC series is heady, intriguing, creative, imaginative, political and amazingly well written. I know anime has some connotations, but really if you like Philip K Dick style sci fi intrigue, it's a worthy watch.
digi_owl 11y ago
GITS has a long story. It started as a Manga, whos author was a big fan of western philosophy (the ghost concept is supposedly lifted from Hegel's geist). Thing is that he was barely involved in the making of original movie, but heavily so with the TV series.
rorykoehler 11y ago
I only recently watched Ghost in the Shell for the first time. I have no idea how I missed it all these years. I also had no idea about the follow ons you posted. Excited to watch them now. On another note, Black Mirror is great but it doesn't even exist in the same realm as Ghost in the Shell. In 1989 we had a much less developed idea of the consequences of future technologies. The ideas presented in the original Ghost in the Shell are basically just rehashed in Black Mirror. I remember how mind blowing I found the Matrix when I first saw it (I would say it's probably the only futurist movie that changed my outlook on the world) however after watching the original Ghost in the Shell I realised that it was just a reinterpretation.
- jcoffland 11y ago
  On that note, I found the Animatrix even better than the Matrix movies. It's anime more along the lines of GitS.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    I wonder if by being animated rather than actors and FX, it slips past the whole "uncanny valley" effect. Meaning that our subconscious stops nitpicking, and our conscious can therefore fully engage with the message.
    - colordrops 11y ago
      The uncanny valley was intentional in the Matrix films.
chaostheory 11y ago
Yeah the TV series for Ghost in the Shell is way better than all the movies. You just can't fit the entire manga in 2 hours.
logicrook 11y ago
Although there are major differences between the movie and SAC. The two movies are strongly influenced by Mamoru Oshii's ideas, to the point of contradicting Shirow's point of view on certain subjects. SAC is much closer to the author's intent, but can feel at time like a clumsy homage to the source material. If you haven't, read them, as well as the hit-and-miss sequel Man-machine interface, and Appleseed (which unfortunately has been tarnished by terrible adaptations).
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
Kiro 11y ago
Should I watch the films or the series first?
- anc84 11y ago
  Just go with their release dates.
- Ftuuky 11y ago
  The films then the series.
  - ZenoArrow 11y ago
    I'd say it was fine to skip the second film (Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence), I remember it being a bit lacklustre in terms of the story and pacing. The first film is definitely worth a watch though.
    - Ftuuky 11y ago
      GitS2 is actually my favorite after the original film. Then the manga and only after the SAC and Arise.
    - underbluewaters 11y ago
      I really enjoyed the second film when I first saw it. The scene with Batou invading the ship with augmented-reality map support was amazing. I watched it recently though, and it just didn't really hold up. I'm not quite sure what it was. Maybe the ideas just weren't as innovative anymore? I think the first film stands up a lot better.
krylon 11y ago
SAC completely blew my mind, in a way. At the time, animation - from my perspective - was for kids, and seeing somebody use that medium to tell an elaborate and intelligent story was quite overwhelming initially.

newman314 11y ago

As much as I love GITS, I feel like so much of Minority Report is prescient to much of what we are seeing now or starting to see, from pre-crime to the personalized advertising. And that is scary.

justinjlynn 11y ago
The Minory Report vision of pre-crime is indeed scary. However, we're already using analytics to prevent conditions which encourage criminal behaviour or increase risk of victimisation. I believe it's a question of implementation. Just as with stereotypes, these systems of generalisation can be useful but when applied to individuals they can be disastrous. Extending the metaphor, you can view racism as the extension of (positive as well as negative) stereotypes to the individual. For me, the future vision of hyper-personalised advertising and 'clienteling' is in many ways, far more insidious than any overt Big Brother-type figure lurking in guises such as that of Minority Report's pre-crime division. I found Huxley's vision - a world in which we, as a populace, are distracted from truthful experience and thus controlled by being overloaded with the experiences we love - to be enormously more terrifying than a world where we are controlled by what we fear. If you think of this type of control in the context of an abusive relationship, then it becomes clear how many more people would be vulnerable and how few would be willing to leave even if they did realise the truth of their situation. You need far more control and fear to manipulate people than you need if you employ loyalty. If you can get people to love you, they imprison themselves.
- newman314 11y ago
  I dunno. I would say Trump seems to be doing a good job taking advantage of people's (misplaced?) fears. Incidentally, John Oliver had a great bit on Drumpf but the comments I've seen so far run along the lines of "F*uck you, you just be hating" by people that don't seem to have even bothered watching the whole segment. I find this infuriating. It's okay to disagree but dammit, at least take time to get educated before outright dismissing things. /rant
  - justinjlynn 11y ago

hit8run 11y ago

I read ghost in the shell and was in the same moment reminded to Wamdue Project - King of my castle. The music video was done with Ghost in the Shell scenes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwdlqquJDK4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwdlqquJDK4

asymmetric 11y ago
Well that's not actually the original video, just a YouTube user's creation. This is the original one: http://youtu.be/DXSyQjppqG0 http://youtu.be/DXSyQjppqG0
- muuck 11y ago
  I remember the gits version being shown on TV all the time. I've never seen the version you've just posted. EDIT: This is not the GITS version shown on tv. The TV video only had footage of the tank scene.

lostmsu 11y ago

I personally believe Transcendence has the most realistic future (if you exclude humanity at the very end of it).

Adam_O 11y ago

I liked the GITS SAC series a lot because of how well they balanced the action plot points with discussion about technology, security, politics and philosophy. Overall I'd struggle to think of another series which strikes that balance so well.

jessaustin 11y ago

It's been some time since I read anything on this site but I have to ask: did they decide on the hero graphic, and then also decide they had to code up a method to keep that nipple covered unless the reader really wanted to see it? That's too funny.

beloch 11y ago

A warning for those thinking of re-watching (or watching for the first time!) Ghost in the Shell: Avoid the "Ghost in the Shell 2.0" edition of this film, which was released on Bluray a few years back. For this version, it was decided to "upgrade" the original film with new CG elements, very much in the same mindset as George Lucas and Star Wars. You might think it reasonable for someone to go back, identify weaker scenes in the original, and then attempt to fix the results of budget and time limitations. This is what Lucas did, and even that was divisive for fans. However, that's not what happened in the case of "Ghost in the Shell". Instead, they redid the same big, expensive, gloriously detailed moments that the original splurged on. The result is that some of the film's best shots are replaced with poor quality CG that is jarringly out of place. On the whole, "Ghost in the Shell 2.0" makes George Lucas look restrained, respectful, and subtle. Oh, and for some reason they ripped out the U2 credits song too. If you liked that track you might miss it. The 25th anniversary version that recently came out is apparently the theatrical version, so that would be a better bet, although I cannot guarantee it's good personally (I haven't seen it yet).

MrGando 11y ago
Totally agree, mentioned that too. The 3D stuff is horrible, just try to watch the original version....

zipwitch 11y ago

There's also the original manga _Ghost in the Shell_ by Masamune Shirow (first published back in 1991), and it's two sequels _Vol 2. Man-Machine Interface_ and _Vol 1.5. Human-Error Processor_, published in 2001 and 2003 (years later in the US). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell_%28manga%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell_%28manga%29 Like a lot of GitS media, they're unique and don't mesh perfectly with the others, but if you like SAC, you'll probably like them. A lot of scenes are echoed between the various OAVs and the manga, especially the first.

chromaton 11y ago

I saw two of the series and liked the plot, action, setting, etc. That said, I didn't appreciate the title conceit and thought the stories got weak whenever they approached it. There is no ghost in the shell, not in the real world. A person's thoughts, character, and emotions come from neurons, hormones, and sensory input. There's no way to take a person's unique consciousness out of their body, keep it in a jar, and move it somewhere else. At best it might be possible to emulate someone's brain, but that's not what they did in Ghost in the Shell.

forgotmysn 11y ago
i think they are referring to the self in the philosophical sense. if you only see things in a literal light, the world will seem very narrow.
ramses 11y ago
I agree, there is no ghost. Consciousness is an emergent behavior of those elements: neurons, their interconnections, neurotransmitters, etc. However, in theory it may be possible to reproduce those elements down to a molecular level, allowing the emergence of the "original" consciousness from new matter. So, if you imagine that "ghost" is metaphorical speak to, say, to summarize, the film is not strictly wrong.
XorNot 11y ago
That was kind of the point of the idea though - it's a world on the precipice of digitizing consciousness - but they haven't yet achieved it. The series has at its core that question.
yarou 11y ago
That was the whole point of the series, though. Is the Major the same Major as she was at the beginning of the film?
- joshguthrie 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

MrGando 11y ago

I watched the original in 1995. It is a masterpiece, have rewatched many many times, always great. The remastered version with 3D is horrible though. The Stand Alone Complex is way more pop-corn material, also easier to digest, didn't really like it very much. The original film's pace is closer to a Tarkovsky film... Slower, more profound, poetic at times.

snake_plissken 11y ago

I just finished up watching almost all of Ghost in the Shell, from the original movie to Stand Alone Complex; I still need to re-watch Innocence. Originally I'd gotten into it back when I was a wee teen in the early/mid 2000s, and I hadn't completely understood the topics and commentary then. It was just cool action sequences with intriguing characters and an engaging story. All I can say now is, wow; the series is on-point. It's top tier sci-fi, up there with the likes of Neuromancer and Blade Runner. SAC is awesome and I liked it the most, since it has some really nice side episodes that expand on the world, like the one where the one Tachikoma's (a Tachikoma being this spider like mech with a nascent AI) neural net starts to develop beyond its parameters due to some "natural oils", but the whole series is amazing. Just don't watch the original video animation things (OVA), which are basically two movies that each are amalgamations of Stand Alone Complex's two seasons. Not only is Batou's voice different, they don't do SAC any justice. Those things should be banned.

mercurial 11y ago
Oh dear. I watched Innocence with a friend when it came out, and to this I don't have any idea of what it was trying to say. I liked GitS very much, as well as the first season of SAC, despite the oversexualization of the main character (ugh fan service).
- bsder 11y ago
  Yeah, I consider Innocence to be the most visually interesting (some of the scenes are just gorgeous), but it was kind of a mess in terms of story.
- justifier 11y ago
  innocence is brilliant one of those rare occasions where the sequel is just as good as the original but for completely different reasons > I don't have any idea of what it was trying to say. i am guessing this is in response to the way the characters have entire conversations with only referencing abstract quotes.. and to this i have to say i like this kind of dialogue if you do too, i would recommend the mid century new wave, specifically jean luc godard.. there is a sac episode in homage to him as well so perhaps my seeing similarities is more than coincidence.. stuff like pierrot le fou and notre musique are heavy with these quotation dialogues if you dislike this sort of writing style, may i suggest some ways to enjoy it more: you could watch the film like you would read a book, maybe a chapter a night spread out over a few nights to give you time to digest your mind's philosophical ramblings, and allow you to flip back and forth to track context also, or, you could get a list of all of the quotes used in the film from their original authors and read them, considering their meanings, before watching the film it can be frustrating to try to keep up with abstract concepts and poetic structures when you have the time frame subtitles afford by reading the quotes before hand you will recognise immediately what is being said and be able to consider the context of your understanding of its meaning within its placement in the film having one character dismiss another by answering a question using a quote from a 19 century poet, then later have another character, absent from the original scene implying omnipresence, recycle that quote in a completely different context and then also finish the rest of the quote altering its meaning is masterful writing spoilers from the original 1995 film ahead: it is rare to see someone take something as brilliant and successful as the 1995 ghost and decide to make a sequel completely abandoning the original's main character and themes to focus the main thread on a support character from the original innocence is the story of how those left behind deal when a respected person leaves and how that void pulls all of them around batou in innocence is a different batou from gits, in the absence of the major he begins to take on the inquisition that made the major so powerful, and this worries everyone else in the same way batou was worried about the major in gits batou's mirroring of the major's personality is only able to be relieved to his own personality again due to the event at the end of the film what oshii did with innocence is commendable i think all of the ghost material is masterful and great fodder for staring out of windows "mirrors are meant to be looked down on; stead looked into" .Ryokuu Saitou

ptrincr 11y ago

If you're going to watch the film for the first time, which you should as its awesome, don't watch the dubbed version. Make sure you watch it with subtitles.

Wildgoose 11y ago
That pretty much goes for any movie or anime, I would say. One exception would be the English version of the childrens show "Magic Roundabout" which I believe was originally a French political satire. The English version just watched the show and then made up a story to go along with what was happening on screen. I presume Zebedee was meant to be a caricature of de Gaulle but if I am mistaken I am sure somebody will correct me. :-)
- aninhumer 11y ago
  My understanding is that it's true that the English version was not based on the original script, but the original French was still just a children's show.
- anc84 11y ago
  Some of the Ghibli movies are dubbed wonderfully.
- fennecfoxen 11y ago
  > That pretty much goes for any movie or anime, I would say. The possible exception would be Steins;Gate; I contend that the mad-scientist ranting sounds better in your native tongue. (I am aware of the position that it's somewhat less authentic and will concede that the English version of Mayuuri's tu-tu-ruu is of lower quality.)
  - stordoff 11y ago
    I'm generally not too bothered about sub. v. dub, but for some reason I find Steins;Gate in English to be really jarring. Not sure why, but I feel like the voices don't really fit the characters in the dubbed version.

Cyph0n 11y ago

GitS is undoubtedly one of the best hard sci-fi universes ever conceived. The series Stand Alone Complex is in my opinion the high point of it all. It tackles such a large variety of deep societal issues that do not yet exist in a very effective way. One thing that makes the series top-notch for me is the original soundtrack, composed by the great Yoko Kanno. I mean, wow, some of songs are gems, with lyrics that are deeper than most songs I've heard. Be Human: https://youtu.be/fDtLpCzKqkQ https://youtu.be/fDtLpCzKqkQ Living Inside the Shell: https://youtu.be/YSj91yopjDg https://youtu.be/YSj91yopjDg If you're a fan of sci-fi, be sure to watch the series at least.

deleted 11y ago

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jokoon 11y ago

Except this GITS movie and Ex Machina, there are no other movie who really has a good, serious talk about AI. Matrix don't even come close to that in that regard. The whole "What is human intelligence if it can live inside a machine? What if AI can actually be smarter than us? And by the way, how to define and measure intelligence ?" questions is really fascinating. The GITS movie will always my ultimate favorite movie, not only because it's brilliantly directed, but because that seems to exactly be what AI scientists are trying to do. It also raises good question of psychology: how does a brain work, and can we heal mental illnesses? We might never know and we might wait 300 years or more to figure it out.

colechristensen 11y ago
The Animatrix was better but still really treated the politics of AI more than the actual thing. The sequels could have been spectacular but they concentrated on blowing shit up with cool effects instead of the intellectual parts.
draugadrotten 11y ago
> Except this GITS movie and Ex Machina, there are no other movie who really has a good, serious talk about AI. The movie "Her" has a different take on what it is like with being an AI, and I liked it.
- atom-morgan 11y ago
  I agree. Throughout the entire movie I kept thinking, "Damn. I'd have feelings for that girl really quick." And it was just a voice.

NicoJuicy 11y ago

If you like series about technology, try out 'Black Mirror' on netflix... It has some interesting approaches... Eg. What could happen if there exists a chip that stores all your memories. Is it good or bad? :-)

draugadrotten 11y ago
I would caution against Black Mirror. I felt it was mostly about tabloid style shock value and not about technology. Especially the first episode was just awful - e.g. the pig fucking scene.
- slfnflctd 11y ago
  I watched the first three episodes. Every single one had a primary focus of intense sexual shame or violation, and they all ended in just about the most miserable way possible. It was extremely well done, but some of us have enough negativity in our lives without piling more on in our rest & relaxation time. I might have gone on if they were alternating the pattern or something, it was simply too much of one ugly core theme for me.
  - ionised 11y ago
    There is one consistent theme throughout Black Mirror, and that is 'we are so close to this being the world we live in, given one or two missteps'. The series was never intended to be positive in any way. It's supposed to be a kind of terrifying warning.

jhildings 11y ago

On a side note, a manga that also takes up this subject but is set more far in the future is Battle Angel Alita , that is about a cyborg with a human brain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Angel_Alita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Angel_Alita

noir-york 11y ago

I'm glad to see that GiTS has inspired such a discussion and so many comments. Its a masterpiece of story telling, futurism and the challenges facing society, not just robotics/AI but also demographics (Solid State Society). I still get goose bumps every time I watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsIQ_kA77b4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsIQ_kA77b4

te0x 11y ago
Have you watched all of it? I want to get into it but am not sure where to start. If you had to choose 1-2 seasons of TV and a few films, which ones would you watch?
- noir-york 11y ago
  Yes of course! I've indeed watched all of them. For the purest GiTS experience I would just watch the first three films GiTS (1995), Innocence, and Stand Alone Complex. GiTS 2.0, in an attempt at improving the graphics, ruined the original feel. I watched the TV series - not bad, but not the masterpieces of story telling that the 3 films are. But who cares what I think - what them all, and form your own conclusions :)
joshguthrie 11y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK8V9jG7Wjg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK8V9jG7Wjg This one gives it to me every time.

teekert 11y ago

Puppet Master: It can also be argued that DNA is nothing more than a program designed to preserve itself. Life has become more complex in the overwhelming sea of information. And life, when organized into species, relies upon genes to be its memory system. So, man is an individual only because of his intangible memory... and memory cannot be defined, but it defines mankind. The advent of computers, and the subsequent accumulation of incalculable data has given rise to a new system of memory and thought parallel to your own. Humanity has underestimated the consequences of computerization. Edit: Just a quote, to show my fellow HN-ers that these are must-watch movies.

Ygg2 11y ago
Except we don't have self replicating code that is built by itself. Until that happens, we don't have anything resembling life.
cgh 11y ago
No offence but this quote seems a bit trite? I watched this movie years ago but I don't really remember it. Did it predict smartphones? That's kind of a litmus test.
- teekert 11y ago
  I just want to emphasize the philosophical nature of the film. It really makes you think.
- corysama 11y ago
  The main characters are mostly cyborgs. They speak to each other remotely through telepathy-style wireless SSL-of-the-future. Remote exploits of people's heads are rare in the world canon, but are a focus of the story. So, they are a frequent topic of the series.

lololomg 11y ago

"In the near future - corporate networks reach out to the stars. Electrons and light flow throughout the universe. The advance of computerisation, however, has not yet wiped out nations and ethnic groups."

VeejayRampay 11y ago

Serial Experiments Lain wasn't too bad either.

rhubinak 11y ago

If you are interested in GiTS and also are an occasional gamer, I would strongly recommend to give Deus Ex a try. The story of the first game deals with similar themes as GiTS.

saiya-jin 11y ago
well it is considered by many, mayyyybe including me, the best computer game made. ever. definitely up there in the pantheon
ionised 11y ago
Best game ever made. No question in my mind.

protomyth 11y ago

side topic and NSFW: https://vimeo.com/96621373 https://vimeo.com/96621373 is a interesting attempt to do the front sequence in a live action video. They do a good job, and it is as NSFW as the original. I do wonder how the hollywood version will mess up this movie.

Confusion 11y ago

I'm very surprised by the responses. GitS made no sense to me whatsoever. I did not understand the plot or the world. Now I'm wondering whether I perhaps saw some 'wrong' version that indeed did not make sense.

hnbroseph 11y ago
appropriate username :-)
andrewulrich 11y ago
I was also thrown off by this movie. I remember watching it in college. It seemed very disjointed, throwing around a bunch of dialogue, vocab, characters, politics, etc. at me that seemed badly translated and only poorly if ever explained or described. Sure, plenty of eye candy and then some somewhat intriguing AI stuff at the end. Recently, I tried watching a couple episodes of SAC, and while it was easier to follow, it felt again like I was only understanding about half the dialogue. I am also told that it can be a little off-putting or disorienting to some because it is more concept-driven than plot-driven, which, in addition to being an awkward mashing together of the beginning and the end of the manga (manga wrangling seems in some form or other a common source of awkwardness in anime- e.g. Akira), is probably why it was hard for me to follow. To each his own, I suppose, but I think it's cool when you have both a well-told story AND intriguing concepts (e.g. Neuromancer, Gattaca, Blade Runner, etc.)

thrillgore 11y ago

Ghost in the Shell, the mangas, the two movies, SAC... are the kind of media that every home should have a copy of. Its not just prophetic, but really accessible and satisfactory from just a sheer nerdiness perspective, the same way Star Trek must have been to everyone in the 1960s.

alistproducer2 11y ago

I've never been an anime fan, but GITS remains one of my favorite movies of all time. Dat soundtrack tho.

nickpsecurity 11y ago

Good write-up on it. Probably one of its lasting effects was partial inspiration for The Matrix: the first, mainstream, "thinking-man's," action movie. It had audiences leaving with questions about themselves instead of just flat quotes from a movie. Had plenty of them, too. ;) Always wanted to see more of this genre. I know they're doing a live action Ghost in the Shell. Have mixed feelings about that. Nonetheless, I'd like to see more movies that have enough tropes and cultural tie-ins to be successful but throw in those GitS or Matrix-style element to really get people thinking. Most recent in get you thinking, but not mainstream, movies is Ex Machina. Whole movie, minus a few things, is essentially built on the acting and esp dialogue that questions reality. Kind of a budget film but I thought it was great. Just watch the movie not the trailers as there might be some spoilers in there.

treme 11y ago

To SAC fans * MAJOR SPOILERS * check out this fan theory on identity of laughing man. https://www.reddit.com/r/Ghost_in_the_Shell/comments/2j9p8j/theory_on_the_laughing_man/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Ghost_in_the_Shell/comments/2j9p8j/...

te0x 11y ago

I want to get into it but am not sure where to start. If you had to choose 1-2 seasons of TV and a few films, which ones would you watch?