15 ms·

We're hearing about troubles at Nest

369 points by marvel_boy 11y ago

outside1234 11y ago
I worked there. It was literally the worst experience of my career - and I have worked at all of the hardest charging blue chips and two successful startups - so it is not about high expectations - but abuse. I still wake up with something like PTSD occasionally from getting yelled at and bullied by Tony Fadell almost literally every day while I was there. I have a distance from it now -- and a way better job. It made me realize that the culture of a place is really what makes it and that "how" you get results really matter. I bought into the Apple pedigree of the place without understanding that the way Tony got there was through essentially wrecking other people's lives. I have no idea why Google bought this. Tony literally stood up at an all-hands after the Alphabet thing and said "Fuck being Googley" (direct quote). Frankly, if I could offer Larry Page once piece of advice it would be to take Tony out front of TGIF and fire him publicly -- all of this comes from Tony. Matt is just his hatchet man and fake cofounder. There are a lot of great people at Nest and they deserve a better leader.
- brandon272 11y ago
  > I still wake up with something like PTSD from getting yelled at and bullied by Tony Fadell. This is so depressing. My gut tells me that absolutely no one should have to put up with this in an employment situation, but what are your options, other than to either "deal with it" or face the income and career insecurity that comes with quitting?
  - outside1234 11y ago
    The really great thing about being in software in Silicon Valley is that you can more or less write your own meal ticket somewhere else. My advice to anyone else in this situation is to do just that. The first time abuse happens, just walk out, have a laugh about it (it reflects on them not you), and find another gig. There are a lot of great jobs out there. I have a lot of empathy now for all the crummy jobs where people don't have that agility to move - we are really privileged in that we don't have to put up for this.
    - njs12345 11y ago
      I would second that. Not in SV, in London, but I had a similar experience with an abusive work environment. Stayed way too long and some of my shares vested. Now they're worth some money on paper, but it wasn't worth it - my advice for anyone in a similar situation would be to get out as early as possible.
      - sdickert 11y ago
        Seriously? In London? Now that is intriguing.
      - maxxxxx 11y ago
        Although leaving early creates an incentive for the company to abuse their workers before their shares vest.
        WizKid 11y ago
        If enough people leave the shares will not be worth much anyway
        eru 11y ago
        Don't put value on shares vesting late when comparing offers, then.
    - VikingCoder 11y ago
      ...which is why we should all be particularly angry when companies in Silicon Valley agree to not try to recruit each-other's employees. It doesn't just hold down wages, it makes it more likely some employee is going to suffer abuse because they don't know what options they have.
      - fweespeech 11y ago
        Yep. Fuck all those companies.
      - dwightgunning 11y ago
  - threeseed 11y ago
    There are no other good options. You can complain but you will get forced out eventually for rocking the boat plus it may affect your reputation in the market place. You just need to do what everyone does. Grit your teeth, stay positive and plan your exit strategy to another company.
    - st3v3r 11y ago
      Any company that would look down on you negatively for speaking out about this treatment is one that deserves to miss out on talented engineers.
      - a3n 11y ago
        Indeed. It's a filter. Somewhat related, I've been considering putting my birth year (IGY) at the top of my resume. I'd rather someone silently bitbucket my resume than show up for a useless interview.
  - pkaye 11y ago
    I had to deal with similar kind of shit in the past. Just not worth it unless you can cash out in a short time. Too much of a toll on your health. Better to be paid 5-10% less if necessary and do something I enjoy in comfort. However I think most who work at Nest could easily switch to new jobs given their credentials.
    - CamperBob2 11y ago
      However I think most who work at Nest could easily switch to new jobs given their credentials. I dunno. "Yeah, you remember last January when you came home from work and your dog was frozen solid? That, uh... that was my code."
  - st3v3r 11y ago
    We could rise up and destroy those who do such things. I don't think anyone would shed a tear if this guy were to be kicked out of the company.
  - freyr 11y ago
    > face the income and career insecurity that comes with quitting Get a firm job offer before you give your notice. You won't face any income uncertainty, and you'll have much more leverage while negotiating with potential new employers (unless let you it show that you're really desperate to leave your current gig).
  - untog 11y ago
    > face the income and career insecurity that comes with quitting? Next to zero chance of that for a developer in Silicon Valley. But don't think it doesn't happen to people in minimum wage jobs everywhere.
- asdfologist 11y ago
  Honest question: how did someone with such an abusive management style lead his company to success? I'd think that his employees would just leave and go work elsewhere.
  - dboreham 11y ago
    Because behaving like this is moderately correlated with success. You don't have to be an asshole to succeed in business, but it can help.
    - asdfologist 11y ago
      Yes but I'm asking how. If you piss off your employees and they leave, how do you grow your business into a multibillion-dollar company?
      - w1ntermute 11y ago
        Because not that many employees actually left, despite being pissed off. There was no way the Valley élite would let one of their own (Tony Fadell) have a hard fall, so at least a semi-successful exit was guaranteed from the beginning. The reason why Jobs and Fadell could be assholes and still succeed is because they were/are Jobs/Fadell. That doesn't mean you or I can act like assholes and still succeed. Perhaps we could be assholes after we succeed, but that's a highly unlikely hypothetical.
        aledalgrande 11y ago
        I agree. I've seen a*holes who were nobodies, and they went nowhere. This is because he is Tony Fadell.
        xenadu02 11y ago
        I'd also point out that Jobs was know to have become less of an asshole by the time he returned to Apple. Some people think it was reconnecting to his family that helped but who knows. You can demand greatness without being an asshole. You can tell someone the work they did isn't good enough without being an asshole. You can also truthfully review someone's bad code without being an asshole, for what it's worth. Being an asshole != "telling it like it is" though most people confuse the two.
- dclowd9901 11y ago
  Also worked there, but not on hardware, and the crunch-ness was no better. It's also an org driven more by design and marketing than by QA and sound development and engineering. You always felt like you were failing and behind. It was a very discouraging experience. 1/5, would not recommend.
  - deleted 11y ago
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    - threeseed 11y ago
      > Tony's ambition to be the next CEO of Apple Weird. He's only 9 years younger than Tim Cook and Jeff Williams (current COO) would be a great replacement should anything to Tim. Plus the Tony Fadell era culture at Apple has noticeably shifted under Tim. Not sure it would change back anytime soon.
    - deleted 11y ago
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- jmorrow977 11y ago
  ...and the Nest devices I recently purchased will be getting returned immediately.
- artursapek 11y ago
  Sounds like Tony Fadell has lost sight of what's important in life.
- aledalgrande 11y ago
  Thanks for sharing your experience. We, as a community, should point out these so-called "leaders" who build their fortune on the efforts of other people.
  - a3n 11y ago
    All leaders build their fortune on the efforts of other people, pretty much by definition.
    - aledalgrande 11y ago
      With the difference that true leaders work on making others the future leaders.
- abalone 11y ago
  Did anyone here work under him at Apple? I'm curious whether it was the same situation back then, or was better balanced by the rest of the management team, or if this is new thing.
  - fiveguys94 11y ago
    Yeah, I did. He did shout at Apple too, and people in his software teams (ie, non-iOS iPods) did work ridiculous hours 7 days a week for months before each iPod shipped. It was less of an issue because less things went wrong, though. IMO this was because Apple knew how to make hardware, generally, and hence things didn't go far off the rails - he got a lot of support from Apple. However, Tony didn't know the first thing about software and appeared to assume that it was something you threw new grads at because they'd hammer at it until it got through QA. Each year the teetering pile of crap grew higher and harder to ship... Now he's master of all he surveys, he's worked out that actually consistently delivering complex projects (which have rather more complex software than an iPod) is damn hard. Shouting is his reflex reaction when this doesn't go well.
- throwaway6497 11y ago
  Feel terrible reading this. Is rest of the Alphabet upper management completely oblivious to what is happening inside Nest? Don't they care? Isn't leadership about doing the right thing. If people are getting abused, Alphabet/Google better do something about it. I thought Alphabet took pride in the kind of leadership traits they support and want their leaders to embody. I am pretty sure a ton of current/ex-Googlers will be shell-shocked to hear stories like these. I think Nest employees should simply join core Google teams(search/ads/apps/chrome/new efforts) and put an end to their personal abuse. Larry and the rest of the leadership should really look into how Nest is run internally and fix things. This cannot be the norm and status-quo. This is anti-thesis to being Googley, and I personally know a ton of current and Ex Googlers who will be ashamed and hurt to hear this kind of abuse at Alphabet/Google. I am sorry you had to endure this. I am happy you are in a much better place. I am happy for your family now. [1 word edit for grammar]
  - deleted 11y ago
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  - outside1234 11y ago
    My understanding (maybe wrong) was that the Alphabet changes made it really hard to move between the subsidiaries.
    - brandmeyer 11y ago
      It depends on the subsidiary. My little corner maintains close ties with Google's engineering tools, job ladder, promotion process, etc. for the express purpose of enabling easier hires/transfers from Google. So really it's up to the subsidiary as to how they choose to behave.
      - outside1234 11y ago
        You will probably not find it hard to believe that Nest made it sound impossible. :)
- EC1 11y ago
  >"Fuck being Googley" (direct quote). I'd probably get fired for bursting out laughing.
  - Mithaldu 11y ago
    Secretly and relentlessly put googly eyes on everything he owns.
  - jonesb6 11y ago
    This was down voted but I think it adds to the discussion. Even in the "utopia" of SV (as some people seem to see it) boss can say something a mile over the line to Google executives and come out fine, but if an employee so much as puts a toe over.. it's almost like behind the hype we have the same bureaucracies and cultures as everyone else...
- l1ambda 11y ago
  TGIF?
  - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
    Google's weekly all-hands
  - dguaraglia 11y ago
    "Thank Goodness It's Friday". Although, interestingly enough, it's on Thursdays so people in APAC can take part.
- newman314 11y ago
  Do you think this contributed to the lackluster software upgrade/update cycle. To be clear，I'm not blaming you but it sure seems that Nest has had significant challenges rolling out software updates (I'm a Nest user)
- jimrandomh 11y ago
  Well, that bodes ill for Google Glass coming back from its "hibernation". It changes the interpretation of why they moved it to be under him: it looks like a punishment for their failure.
- ilvnvtoomuch 11y ago
  I hate to say this, but I felt the same way at "Accenture".
  - PhantomGremlin 11y ago
    I really miss Pud at fuckedcompany.com. He was always railing against moronic companies like Accenture. He'd write something like "Accenture (pronounced ass-enter)". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucked_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucked_Company
- joering2 11y ago
  I second your opinion about Tony Fadell. Worked indirectly on few projects he managed. Disgusting human being always looking at profits and cutting corners. I recall one phone-meeting with engineer where he praised her for 10 minutes how great her programming skills were and how he "looks forward for many more years of working together". When the conversation was over, on the same breath, he told us (team of 5 in the meeting): "we need to replace her immediately - she's too expensive!". We looked at each other and felt really stupid. I don't think anyone of us ever been in such situation...
  - toomanybeersies 11y ago
    Jesus. Cost cutting with engineers never works well. Suits need to get out of the thinking that engineers/developers/designers are a liability to be minimised. It's not just suits either, it seems to be most non-engineers, I've met people looking for web designers before and they've tried to go with the most cut rate designer they can find, and then they wonder why their websites look like shit.
  - fiveguys94 11y ago
    I never saw that at Apple. There were literally no budget restrictions on engineering as long as you got the job done. Was that back in pre-Apple days?
- aswanson 11y ago
  I get the mental image of a wannabe Steve Jobs loudmouth running rampant without the slightest hint that he's building a fucking thermostat and he's really not that consequential in the grand scheme of things.
- reality_czech 11y ago
  Maybe you just needed to leave the Nest?
  - deleted 11y ago
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  - diesel_travis 11y ago
    Eggzactly what I was thinking.
- dto2 11y ago
  Same, worst 1 year of my life working. And the problem isn't just Tony but a lot of his direct reports are really really bad. The real irony is hearing Tony say the company has a no asshole policy and that he wants Nest to not have assholes like Apple did. Fail. Fuck Nest and Larry.
rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
Inevitablities from the Internet of things: Software glitches, personal data sold or served to the government, personal data stolen by a foreign government, hackers that freeze your house or crank up the heater till it breaks, hackers that spy on your kids with the cameras you installed, automated customer support lines. For some reason I get the feeling that adopting all of these "smart" devices actually makes me more vulnerable to risk and gives me less control over my life. I'll stick with my dumb house. After all, it was Socrates of all people who criticized writing and reading because he believed it made you worse at remembering things.
- jarek 11y ago
  > For some reason I get the feeling that adopting all of these "smart" devices actually makes me more vulnerable to risk and gives me less control over my life. Oh, of course it does. Consider: when are you more in control, when you know the city you're in inside-out, or when you're depending on Google Maps?
  - rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
    Well, lemme think... 2012, October. I, an American from upstate NY, am traveling on the Queen Elizabeth Way to visit a friend in Toronto, a city I last saw at the age of 3. There are at least 6 lanes on the highway, packed with drivers so cantankerous and forceful that save for the autumn gray I could swear I was in LA. I'm approaching the city and a display by the road says the route is closed for construction. My maps app redirects me to another highway, which is completely closed after 15 miles of driving. Another redirect, all while forcing my way through the automobile equivalent of a massive hockey team. Suffice to say, I didn't know the city, and I didn't have the chance to unfold a map. The only part that was out of my control was the $300 in roaming charges.
    - jarek 11y ago
      Ah but I bet that the animations were beautiful and the icons all lined up perfectly
yuhong 11y ago
I remember when Nest hired a VP of security after I reported 768-bit DHE on one of their servers to Google security.
- letitleak 11y ago
  Sorry to go OT[1], but is there a link to their general (encryption/integrity) policies? I was shocked they are sometimes delivering the android studio via http and providing only sha1 sums. If your IDE is compromised, then who knows what code you might be signing.. [1](Well I considered it a related matter, as I have trouble telling what googles actually policies are and whether my attempts at feedback will be filtered by a group in some kind of crunch as described or by someone who will be neutrally considering actual policies..)
  - kuschku 11y ago
    Android? Security? Are you joking? In the past weeks, several independent exploit chains from "App with no permissions" to "Bootloader takeover" have been published. Completely working on all versions except for Marshmallow, unpatchable on the older devices due to Android’s update model. It doesn’t matter what code you sign when literally any app could be a rootkit. Edit: Some of the chains are from the author of this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/42fxtg/android_mediaserver_privilege_escalation_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/42fxtg/android_medi...
    - letitleak 11y ago
      I'd not heard from no permissions, but as with a website, I still prefer things with my signature correspond to things from me and are nice even if the rest is a cesspool. Given these problems, I would seriously hope that the ~8 app makers I trust feel the same way.
murbard2 11y ago
I bought a Nest thermostat and I've been extremely unimpressed with it. It's not just the bugs that will have you wake up in the middle of the night in a freezing home. Even when it works as intended, the product is poorly thought out. - Instead of trying to learn when to apply heat and when not to, which depends on many contextual factors, it seems to be targeting learning a calendar. A calendar does not fully capture the knowledge about your schedule that a thermostat could gain. - It would be trivial for the thermostat to figure out if your phone is connected to your home network, indicating that you might be home and don't want to be cold. AFAIK, it doesn't bother doing that. I live on a different floor from my thermostat, and thus it often concludes that I'm away. I don't get it... Google clearly has more than enough in house talent to get those things right. Why aren't they? Why don't they seem to care?
- tghw 11y ago
  I've started using IFTTT to work around some of this. For example, I have it set home/away based on an IFTTT geofence. Unfortunately, IFTTT doesn't do home/away yet, but you can write your own trivial "app" to do it simply by registering as a dev and using the Maker channel in IFTTT.
  - deleted 11y ago
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  - murbard2 11y ago
    This type of workarounds would make sense if we were dealing with a product built by a few makers and released as a set of blueprints online... This is produced by a company that Google, the most valuable company in the world, bought for $3.2B. It's weird that one needs to script around these issues.
    - eli 11y ago
      That's a workaround of IFTTT limits not Nest
      - 11y ago
rblatz 11y ago
The past few days when I walk by my nest thermostat in the morning I've seen an error saying that it isn't connected to my wireless network. When in fact it is connected, and can be reached through the nest app on my phone.
sjs382 11y ago
> Three former Nest employees independently brought up this same anecdote when describing how Nest had an internal culture where it was "always crunch time" because of unrealistic deadlines and a hierarchical management structure. Oh man, that sounds familiar...
- askafriend 11y ago
  "unrealistic deadlines and a hierarchical management structure" describes basically our entire industry....not to imply that we should accept this as the "norm"...but kinda funny the way they put it.
  - sjs382 11y ago
    It's the "always crunch time" bit that resonated, along with the reasons why.
- TTPrograms 11y ago
  "He has a 68% approval rating on anonymous data-sharing site Glassdoor, but the several ex-employees Business Insider spoke to highlighted an atmosphere of "fear" and said that sitting near Fadell's office meant hearing a constant barrage of shouting." I really hope the people working there have opportunities elsewhere and are aware of their options. Nobody should feel obligated to work in an environment like that. If more engineers refuse to accept these conditions hopefully executives will be more hesitant to treat their employees this way.
  - askafriend 11y ago
    Absolutely, not only are those poor employees doing themselves a disservice, but they really are doing the rest of us a disservice too by perpetuating those kinds of environments. The employees are the fuel of any company, and when you keep fueling a company with an environment like that, it sends a signal. Not a good one.
  - pinewurst 11y ago
    The problem with Glassdoor CEO approval ratings is that they often don't reflect a really bad CEO lacking direct exposure to a lot of employees. In large organizations, perceived business success drives approval more than anything else. Look at Jeff Bezos with 81% - his success and that of the organization are very decoupled in this measure from personal experience of him. On the other hand, I know another Seattle organization with a CEO approval rate of 13% - it's small enough that all employees have (mostly negative) CEO contact.
demian0311 11y ago
I have Nest thermostat and a Nest camera. Thermostat is in the hallway and regularly thinks nobody is home. Camera knows I'm home because of movement (or I should be able to show it how to tell). But the Camera doesn't talk to the thermostat. You create a dependency when devices connect to the Internet and you may give up some privacy. In return I assume you'd get some intelligence and integration.
- brandon272 11y ago
  My #1 issue my Nest is that my house is always freezing in the winter because it always thinks I'm not home as I might be home but not necessarily walk in front of the thermostat routinely. Hence it switches to "Auto Away" mode. It would be nice if the Nest app I had on my phone could identify that I'm home (i.e. am I connected to my home WiFi network, or check my location via GPS) and then communicate that to my thermostat.
  - notwhereyouare 11y ago
    I saw an app on the play store a while back that did exactly that. It worked with the nest API and your phone, you said what wifi's and what areas and it pinged the nest to keep it in home mode. It's called Away Smarter on the google play store. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.geeksville.awaysmarter https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.geeksville...
  - _JamesA_ 11y ago
    My SmartThings supports a smartphone geo-fence to detect presence and an NFC fob if you don't want to link a phone. I don't understand why my Nest can't do that too. I get the feeling that Nest has transitioned from innovation to revenue.
  - ecopoesis 11y ago
    We gave up on the auto-away stuff and use the Skylark app on our phones, which does geo-fencing. I agree that this should be a built in function of the Nest app, but a five dollar app as a workaround isn't too bad.
atonse 11y ago
I have a nest and it is a real piece of shit. I usually don't curse on HN but I can barely contain my hate for this product. My absolutely ugly, crappy old thermostat with a needle on it works WAY better than the nest (thankfully we have it upstairs where we sleep). When it's cold, we turn that needle up, and we get warm. With the nest, which is downstairs, when we're cold, we turn the nest up, we get weird "+2 hour" things, and nothing happens. The heater doesn't come on, we're freezing and the thing has a mind of its own. I have taken photos where I've set the thermostat at 90 degrees, the room is at about 60 degrees, and the Nest hasn't turned the heating unit on. This is a the worst kind of sin of user experience, when a user feels like the machine controls them, and not the other way round. As big a nerd as I am, and loved that the Nest shook up the thermostat industry, I absolutely regret buying a Nest. I wanted to love this product, but it fails spectacularly at the ONE thing it's supposed to do, which is to let us set a comfortable temperature for our house. Because of this experience, I absolutely avoid their smoke detectors (I was ready to buy three of them before buying the thermostat). I've told family and friends to stay away as well.
- brandon272 11y ago
  Are you sure that an ordinary thermostat "turns your heater on" right away? I know that my furnace, regardless of thermostat, doesn't audibly "turn on" right away. The burners fire up right away (which you can only hear if you're standing next to the furnace) and then the blower turns on some minutes later. In the summer, the Nest turns on the air conditioning unit right away.
  - atonse 11y ago
    Oh definitely, because I'm not just standing there waiting for it to turn on immediately. There have been times when we're freezing, and I tell my wife "just turn the temperature all the way up" and then she says "I did a while back" and when I go to check, it's on 90. So we're talking 20 mins having passed and the heating unit barely coming alive, when in reality it should be on the whole time attempting to heat up to 90.
    - 11y ago
tsumnia 11y ago
I didn't work at Nest, but for 2011 to 2012, I was a Systems Analyst for a similar company - selling smart thermostats to Quick Service Restaurants (Taco Bell's and McDonald's). One of the hidden problems we had was maintaining "smart" control when the end-user's thermal comfort level wasn't lining up. We turn on A/C to help dry up some humidity, but what we regard as ok the end-user was now "freezing". The biggest issues and where I think the "always crunch time" mentality is due to the fact that customers ALWAYS have A/C or Heat. Messing with it leaves a very negative opinion, especially when we you think they want and what they really want don't match up. I remember tech supporting a call at 11pm on Christmas Eve because I was on duty and the steakhouse in Texas was having a party (Side note: AC units can't handle a lot of people in a confined space). Another time, I made trips to many fast food places the day before Thanksgiving since I was already driving that way to see family. I started at 6am and didn't get to my parents til 8pm. Sadly after the Nest and the Internet of Things spark, a report came out about a year later that pointed out just having a simple HVAC scheduler was all you truly needed to be energy efficient. All the "micro-savings" you have by using PID controllers to 'ramp up' and 'coast down' did nothing for savings. If I can dig up the report, I'll post a link to it.
- philippnagel 11y ago
  Please do. I would be very interested in said report.
  - tsumnia 11y ago
    Sadly, it seems I can't of discontinued code when the company failed. Its been 4 years since I've seriously cracked that stuff open, so I can't find any of the research papers we looked at. A quick internet search brought me to this page though: http://ilsagfiles.org/SAG_files/Meeting_Materials/2015/6-23-15_Meeting/CLEAResult_Smart_Thermostat_WhitePaper_20150505.pdf http://ilsagfiles.org/SAG_files/Meeting_Materials/2015/6-23-... To say they "did nothing" isn't to say they weren't better; to have someone constantly controlling your thermostat can be beneficial, but a smart thermostat over a programmable one did " 6.55% on heating and 0.95% on cooling over a programmable thermostat baseline" in terms of savings.
- 11y ago
nommm-nommm 11y ago
The problem with "smart" anything is that the more features you add the more places there is to break. The coffee maker in my office has a color touch screen. What advantage is a color touch screen over a "dumb" mechanical switch? None, but I am sure its more likely to break and much more expensive to fix/replace. Yes, the touch screen has one button - make coffee. Then it plays animations while your coffee is brewing. Then it says "coffee done." In my opinion smart features should be added very sparingly and fill an actual need not just "oh, cool" or "cuz we could." Otherwise I'd pick the "dumb" version every time.
- joezydeco 11y ago
  Major portions of our economy function through planned obsolescence and doing everything possible in design to make old products look "old", even though functionality hasn't really changed from the old model. Think car manufacturing.
- st3v3r 11y ago
  Are you sure it's not the one that has options for the different sizes?
  - culturestate 11y ago
    Even if it is, does that justify a touchscreen? My Nespresso supports three sizes by having three physical buttons; that doesn't strike me as particularly onerous.
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
    No, it only makes one size coffee.
- driverdan 11y ago
  They did a similar thing with our office elevators. They replaced the physical call buttons with a touchscreen. It doesn't do anything other than call the elevator. It's far less usable because someone who's blind can't use it.
bakul 11y ago
The 1st law of robotics: a robot must not do any harm to a human through its action or allow harm through its inaction. The 2nd law of robotics: a robot must obey an order given to it by a human, except when in conflict with the first law. Seems like the Nest thermostat isn't built to obey the above laws!
- EdiX 11y ago
  Those are the old laws, the new law is "humans are stupid, algorithms know better"
- DrScump 11y ago
  "Open the pod bay doors, Hal."
FireBeyond 11y ago
I've grown more and more disenchanted with my Nest. Reliability has gone way downhill - I used to be able to log in to the app and turn Away mode off before coming home to warm the house. Now? With the same WAPs, same firmware (on the WAP), same SSID, etc, most of the time (at least 75%) the app will act as if its sent the request (indeed, it initially is reporting 'realistic' figures from the thermostat as to current temperature and settings), and reflects the change (i.e. turning orange, saying Heat On). Except if you refresh the display. In which case it tells you that there's a communication error and it can't find your Nest. And the actions haven't actually gone through. And nothing you can do will change anything. Get home, hit "Home" manually? All of a sudden the app works again. Nest Support? "Likely a problem with your wireless access point not supporting WPA properly" Uhh? This used to work fine, the network is WPA2, and everything else on the network never complains.
maxaf 11y ago
I've once worked for a startup run by a CEO with a bulging Steve Jobs complex. I was miserable for four years, questioned my sanity often and almost wrecked my family and my health. I feel deeply for all Nest employees; their continued screaming misery is manifest in the poor quality of Nest products. Hopefully they'll have the good sense to quit before all is lost.
AaronBBrown 11y ago
I have had 3 Ecobee thermostats in my house for over 3 years. They have been extremely reliable and have an API, so I can do all sorts of fun stuff with them. Right now I'm working on hooking them up so my themostats change settings when the house is empty based on the presence of family member phones on our LAN.
- swasheck 11y ago
  that's pretty neat. i just got an ecobee for my birthday and love it, so far.
protomyth 11y ago
Software written by people who are working weekends / 50+hr weeks sucks. It is bad and buggy. It is really painful if it is running an appliance that has to work. The sooner managers get overworked programmers / engineers will lead to bad things which might lead to lawsuits, the better. I am hopeful that the Nest way of doing things is not replicated in their self driving cars.
bitwize 11y ago
No shit?! Nest, a real-life object-oriented breakfast food cooker[1] if ever one existed, is having trouble trying to crack the market for things people NEED like heating? Perish the thought! I live in the northeast. There is no way that I would trust heating my domicile to any cloud-based, internet-of-things-enabled gadget with as many potential failure modes as Nest has, let alone one with the actual failure modes we've seen. If you really want to make heating "smart", an Arduino, an RTC, maybe a temperature sensor for each room, and a way to enter desired heating schedules at the console or via short range wireless will suffice. But most people get by with their dial thermostats. [1] http://scienceagainstevolution.info/dwj/toaster.htm http://scienceagainstevolution.info/dwj/toaster.htm
bsg75 11y ago
TL;DR - Micromanaging executive is over his head, and compensates by bulling subordinates for his own shortcomings.
frabcus 11y ago
UK residents, British Gas's Hive is a good alternative to Nest here. No attempt to magically learn, really well made hardware and apps. The only software upgrade since I bought mine was a new "boost" button (turns heating on for 1 or 2 hours), which was the only thing I'd really wanted extra...
varunjuice 11y ago
If you haven't seen this interview of Tony by Aaron Levie, it's good insight into how Tony thinks. FWIW, more violent metaphors than I've heard in violent movies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsk3nagSDRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsk3nagSDRU
gluecode 11y ago
I was a service provider during the initial days of launch and for two years afterwards. Loved the people. They were driven to ship good looking products. That was their downfall. At Nest they were (at least then) focused on how things looked. Nobody cared about how it worked, or how the product should be supported after shipping. Anyways, no regrets. I met some of the best engineers and designers at Nest in the initial days. Afterwards, it became a A quality hiring B and B hiring C. Left hand did not know what the right was doing. The quality went down the drain. The management was terrifyingly dictatorial, top-down. Everyone was preparing for a Tony presentation/demo. They were afraid like kids do of the cruel headmaster. I wish them nothing but the best.
- bby 11y ago
  no ragrats
xauronx 11y ago
I was recently contacted by Nest due to a project I posted on Reddit. Evidently their head of engineering saw the project and told them to see if I'd be interested in working there. I said I would love to continue with the interview process... a week later they contacted me and said they were at capacity for developers and would not be proceeding. Really kind of crazy for a company of that size, in my opinion. Seems like a bullet dodged at this point. A little concerned for my little app project though. They're taking weeks to approve my API access, to the point that I feel they're damaging my chances of succeeding.
joshmn 11y ago
I interviewed for Nest. The experience was great, and they gave me an offer, but one of their employees tipped me off that there's a plethora of issues going on behind-the-scenes. Upon respectfully declining I received a text message from a number I didn't have in my contact book. Looking into it (being curious) it was a Twilio number. I sent a reply and got the standard Twilio message back. Then I got another text from another number, also a Twilio number, but it seems like they set it up correctly this time, as it didn't send the standard reply. I asked the employee who tipped me off if he had any idea. He stated, quote, "sounds like something Tony would do." There was a brief exchange with this second number — I was laughing during it, while they were heated (and disrespected, I think); the individual went out of their way to throw my dirty laundry in my face, mention how they were doing me a favor, bring up how desperately I needed the job because my mother's ill, and say that I'll never have a job again if I decline. Why would someone accept an offer because you threaten them? I don't know. Today, I'm casually looking for a new gig, though I don't think it has anything to do with Tony.
quietplatypus 11y ago
No one here has yet really considered the real elephant in the room: Why does anyone need an "intelligent" thermostat, especially something as overhyped and over-engineered as Nest is? I never even remotely bought into the Nest hype from the very beginning. Ditto on their smoke detectors. At least, you stop being such a baby and turn the heat up or down by yourself. Controversial, I know. At most, you put your thermostat on an automatic schedule, which can be done about a thousand different ways (timer circuit, dippy bird, microcontrollers that have already been manufactured and tested in a million different ways by more established companies).
- brianwawok 11y ago
  So there are some gains. For example if it knows it is an extra sunny day and its 11am, it could heat a little bit less and let sunlight so more. On the other hand, more fancy is more to break.
  - discodave 11y ago
    No, a thermostat already solves that problem because it measures the temperature of the house and adjusts the heat accordingly.
    - brianwawok 11y ago
      Example for the predict temperature component. For example with honeywell: My house warms up to 70 degrees by 8 am, holds it there for 2 hours, by 10am it shuts off as the sun takes over warming. By noon it is 76 in my house and I am having to open windows to stay cool. With nest: My house warms up to 70 by 8, but is allowed to drift down to 67 by 10am because it knows the sun is coming. Sure enough it does, and warms up to 73 naturally and for free by noon. I not only saved 2 hours of running my furnace (8-10 am), I changed my max delta from my desired temperature from 6 degrees to 3 degrees.
      - quietplatypus 11y ago
        Ah, got it. So it's able to take into account outside factors that more efficiently get you to the target temperature. Okay, I see the value now. Thanks for the explanation!
discodave 11y ago
For all those complaining about quality / bugs in Nest devices, here is a talk that some Nest engineers gave at the 2015 Google Test Automation Conference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIoAq2Mjjas&list=PLSIUOFhnxEiCWGsN9t5A-XOhRbmz54IS1&index=16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIoAq2Mjjas&list=PLSIUOFhnxE... So there is at least somebody trying to improve things! Also, I think it's interesting to note that a company can produce buggy crap even while their engineers are turning up to conferences and saying all the right things.
irascible 11y ago
Nest is way overvalued. How can you screw up a thermostat or a webcam? Someone is going to eat their lunch.
pfarnsworth 11y ago
I think the Nest is okay, overpriced but nice-to-look-at thermostat. It's easy to use and easy to set up, and I haven't had any problems yet. There are a few failures, namely lack of access to data, which forced me to download the data myself and store it, violating the 10-day rule but I don't care. I would love for them to actually try to catch me. The bigger failure is the Dropcam. The acquisition has made the product much worse. The new Nest app is really slow and crashes all the time. Currently, one of my $200 cameras won't connect to the wifi, and I no idea why, but I'm so furious I don't care. I hate to say this, but the entire acquisition was a complete failure.
mojito 11y ago
Terrible place. Did some work for them a few years ago. They hired a lot of assholes that mirrored Tony's personality. Working with those people was the worst. And Tony is a control freak which led to an insular group of yes men. And they often ended up making costly or wasteful mistakes because good, calm, knowledgeable people were not able to make effective decisions in the defective culture around Tony. They also treated vendors like crap which is like kicking a dog. I hope they make some big changes.
mojito 11y ago
Terrible place. Did some work for them a few years ago. They hired a lot of assholes that mirrored Tony's personality. Working with those people was the worst. And Tony is a control freak which led to an insular group of yes men. And they often ended up making costly or wasteful mistakes because good, calm, knowledgeable people were not able to make effective decisions in the defective culture around Tony. They also treated vendors like crap which is like kicking a dog. I hope they make some big changes.

369 points by marvel_boy 11y ago

I worked there. It was literally the worst experience of my career - and I have worked at all of the hardest charging blue chips and two successful startups - so it is not about high expectations - but abuse. I still wake up with something like PTSD occasionally from getting yelled at and bullied by Tony Fadell almost literally every day while I was there. I have a distance from it now -- and a way better job. It made me realize that the culture of a place is really what makes it and that "how" you get results really matter. I bought into the Apple pedigree of the place without understanding that the way Tony got there was through essentially wrecking other people's lives. I have no idea why Google bought this. Tony literally stood up at an all-hands after the Alphabet thing and said "Fuck being Googley" (direct quote). Frankly, if I could offer Larry Page once piece of advice it would be to take Tony out front of TGIF and fire him publicly -- all of this comes from Tony. Matt is just his hatchet man and fake cofounder. There are a lot of great people at Nest and they deserve a better leader.

brandon272 11y ago
> I still wake up with something like PTSD from getting yelled at and bullied by Tony Fadell. This is so depressing. My gut tells me that absolutely no one should have to put up with this in an employment situation, but what are your options, other than to either "deal with it" or face the income and career insecurity that comes with quitting?
- outside1234 11y ago
  The really great thing about being in software in Silicon Valley is that you can more or less write your own meal ticket somewhere else. My advice to anyone else in this situation is to do just that. The first time abuse happens, just walk out, have a laugh about it (it reflects on them not you), and find another gig. There are a lot of great jobs out there. I have a lot of empathy now for all the crummy jobs where people don't have that agility to move - we are really privileged in that we don't have to put up for this.
  - njs12345 11y ago
    I would second that. Not in SV, in London, but I had a similar experience with an abusive work environment. Stayed way too long and some of my shares vested. Now they're worth some money on paper, but it wasn't worth it - my advice for anyone in a similar situation would be to get out as early as possible.
    - sdickert 11y ago
      Seriously? In London? Now that is intriguing.
    - maxxxxx 11y ago
      Although leaving early creates an incentive for the company to abuse their workers before their shares vest.
      - WizKid 11y ago
        If enough people leave the shares will not be worth much anyway
      - eru 11y ago
        Don't put value on shares vesting late when comparing offers, then.
  - VikingCoder 11y ago
    ...which is why we should all be particularly angry when companies in Silicon Valley agree to not try to recruit each-other's employees. It doesn't just hold down wages, it makes it more likely some employee is going to suffer abuse because they don't know what options they have.
    - fweespeech 11y ago
      Yep. Fuck all those companies.
    - dwightgunning 11y ago
- threeseed 11y ago
  There are no other good options. You can complain but you will get forced out eventually for rocking the boat plus it may affect your reputation in the market place. You just need to do what everyone does. Grit your teeth, stay positive and plan your exit strategy to another company.
  - st3v3r 11y ago
    Any company that would look down on you negatively for speaking out about this treatment is one that deserves to miss out on talented engineers.
    - a3n 11y ago
      Indeed. It's a filter. Somewhat related, I've been considering putting my birth year (IGY) at the top of my resume. I'd rather someone silently bitbucket my resume than show up for a useless interview.
- pkaye 11y ago
  I had to deal with similar kind of shit in the past. Just not worth it unless you can cash out in a short time. Too much of a toll on your health. Better to be paid 5-10% less if necessary and do something I enjoy in comfort. However I think most who work at Nest could easily switch to new jobs given their credentials.
  - CamperBob2 11y ago
    However I think most who work at Nest could easily switch to new jobs given their credentials. I dunno. "Yeah, you remember last January when you came home from work and your dog was frozen solid? That, uh... that was my code."
- st3v3r 11y ago
  We could rise up and destroy those who do such things. I don't think anyone would shed a tear if this guy were to be kicked out of the company.
- freyr 11y ago
  > face the income and career insecurity that comes with quitting Get a firm job offer before you give your notice. You won't face any income uncertainty, and you'll have much more leverage while negotiating with potential new employers (unless let you it show that you're really desperate to leave your current gig).
- untog 11y ago
  > face the income and career insecurity that comes with quitting? Next to zero chance of that for a developer in Silicon Valley. But don't think it doesn't happen to people in minimum wage jobs everywhere.
asdfologist 11y ago
Honest question: how did someone with such an abusive management style lead his company to success? I'd think that his employees would just leave and go work elsewhere.
- dboreham 11y ago
  Because behaving like this is moderately correlated with success. You don't have to be an asshole to succeed in business, but it can help.
  - asdfologist 11y ago
    Yes but I'm asking how. If you piss off your employees and they leave, how do you grow your business into a multibillion-dollar company?
    - w1ntermute 11y ago
      Because not that many employees actually left, despite being pissed off. There was no way the Valley élite would let one of their own (Tony Fadell) have a hard fall, so at least a semi-successful exit was guaranteed from the beginning. The reason why Jobs and Fadell could be assholes and still succeed is because they were/are Jobs/Fadell. That doesn't mean you or I can act like assholes and still succeed. Perhaps we could be assholes after we succeed, but that's a highly unlikely hypothetical.
      - aledalgrande 11y ago
        I agree. I've seen a*holes who were nobodies, and they went nowhere. This is because he is Tony Fadell.
      - xenadu02 11y ago
        I'd also point out that Jobs was know to have become less of an asshole by the time he returned to Apple. Some people think it was reconnecting to his family that helped but who knows. You can demand greatness without being an asshole. You can tell someone the work they did isn't good enough without being an asshole. You can also truthfully review someone's bad code without being an asshole, for what it's worth. Being an asshole != "telling it like it is" though most people confuse the two.
dclowd9901 11y ago
Also worked there, but not on hardware, and the crunch-ness was no better. It's also an org driven more by design and marketing than by QA and sound development and engineering. You always felt like you were failing and behind. It was a very discouraging experience. 1/5, would not recommend.
- deleted 11y ago
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  - threeseed 11y ago
    > Tony's ambition to be the next CEO of Apple Weird. He's only 9 years younger than Tim Cook and Jeff Williams (current COO) would be a great replacement should anything to Tim. Plus the Tony Fadell era culture at Apple has noticeably shifted under Tim. Not sure it would change back anytime soon.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
jmorrow977 11y ago
...and the Nest devices I recently purchased will be getting returned immediately.
artursapek 11y ago
Sounds like Tony Fadell has lost sight of what's important in life.
aledalgrande 11y ago
Thanks for sharing your experience. We, as a community, should point out these so-called "leaders" who build their fortune on the efforts of other people.
- a3n 11y ago
  All leaders build their fortune on the efforts of other people, pretty much by definition.
  - aledalgrande 11y ago
    With the difference that true leaders work on making others the future leaders.
abalone 11y ago
Did anyone here work under him at Apple? I'm curious whether it was the same situation back then, or was better balanced by the rest of the management team, or if this is new thing.
- fiveguys94 11y ago
  Yeah, I did. He did shout at Apple too, and people in his software teams (ie, non-iOS iPods) did work ridiculous hours 7 days a week for months before each iPod shipped. It was less of an issue because less things went wrong, though. IMO this was because Apple knew how to make hardware, generally, and hence things didn't go far off the rails - he got a lot of support from Apple. However, Tony didn't know the first thing about software and appeared to assume that it was something you threw new grads at because they'd hammer at it until it got through QA. Each year the teetering pile of crap grew higher and harder to ship... Now he's master of all he surveys, he's worked out that actually consistently delivering complex projects (which have rather more complex software than an iPod) is damn hard. Shouting is his reflex reaction when this doesn't go well.
throwaway6497 11y ago
Feel terrible reading this. Is rest of the Alphabet upper management completely oblivious to what is happening inside Nest? Don't they care? Isn't leadership about doing the right thing. If people are getting abused, Alphabet/Google better do something about it. I thought Alphabet took pride in the kind of leadership traits they support and want their leaders to embody. I am pretty sure a ton of current/ex-Googlers will be shell-shocked to hear stories like these. I think Nest employees should simply join core Google teams(search/ads/apps/chrome/new efforts) and put an end to their personal abuse. Larry and the rest of the leadership should really look into how Nest is run internally and fix things. This cannot be the norm and status-quo. This is anti-thesis to being Googley, and I personally know a ton of current and Ex Googlers who will be ashamed and hurt to hear this kind of abuse at Alphabet/Google. I am sorry you had to endure this. I am happy you are in a much better place. I am happy for your family now. [1 word edit for grammar]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- outside1234 11y ago
  My understanding (maybe wrong) was that the Alphabet changes made it really hard to move between the subsidiaries.
  - brandmeyer 11y ago
    It depends on the subsidiary. My little corner maintains close ties with Google's engineering tools, job ladder, promotion process, etc. for the express purpose of enabling easier hires/transfers from Google. So really it's up to the subsidiary as to how they choose to behave.
    - outside1234 11y ago
      You will probably not find it hard to believe that Nest made it sound impossible. :)
EC1 11y ago
>"Fuck being Googley" (direct quote). I'd probably get fired for bursting out laughing.
- Mithaldu 11y ago
  Secretly and relentlessly put googly eyes on everything he owns.
- jonesb6 11y ago
  This was down voted but I think it adds to the discussion. Even in the "utopia" of SV (as some people seem to see it) boss can say something a mile over the line to Google executives and come out fine, but if an employee so much as puts a toe over.. it's almost like behind the hype we have the same bureaucracies and cultures as everyone else...
l1ambda 11y ago
TGIF?
- cmrdporcupine 11y ago
  Google's weekly all-hands
- dguaraglia 11y ago
  "Thank Goodness It's Friday". Although, interestingly enough, it's on Thursdays so people in APAC can take part.
newman314 11y ago
Do you think this contributed to the lackluster software upgrade/update cycle. To be clear，I'm not blaming you but it sure seems that Nest has had significant challenges rolling out software updates (I'm a Nest user)
jimrandomh 11y ago
Well, that bodes ill for Google Glass coming back from its "hibernation". It changes the interpretation of why they moved it to be under him: it looks like a punishment for their failure.
ilvnvtoomuch 11y ago
I hate to say this, but I felt the same way at "Accenture".
- PhantomGremlin 11y ago
  I really miss Pud at fuckedcompany.com. He was always railing against moronic companies like Accenture. He'd write something like "Accenture (pronounced ass-enter)". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucked_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucked_Company
joering2 11y ago
I second your opinion about Tony Fadell. Worked indirectly on few projects he managed. Disgusting human being always looking at profits and cutting corners. I recall one phone-meeting with engineer where he praised her for 10 minutes how great her programming skills were and how he "looks forward for many more years of working together". When the conversation was over, on the same breath, he told us (team of 5 in the meeting): "we need to replace her immediately - she's too expensive!". We looked at each other and felt really stupid. I don't think anyone of us ever been in such situation...
- toomanybeersies 11y ago
  Jesus. Cost cutting with engineers never works well. Suits need to get out of the thinking that engineers/developers/designers are a liability to be minimised. It's not just suits either, it seems to be most non-engineers, I've met people looking for web designers before and they've tried to go with the most cut rate designer they can find, and then they wonder why their websites look like shit.
- fiveguys94 11y ago
  I never saw that at Apple. There were literally no budget restrictions on engineering as long as you got the job done. Was that back in pre-Apple days?
aswanson 11y ago
I get the mental image of a wannabe Steve Jobs loudmouth running rampant without the slightest hint that he's building a fucking thermostat and he's really not that consequential in the grand scheme of things.
reality_czech 11y ago
Maybe you just needed to leave the Nest?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- diesel_travis 11y ago
  Eggzactly what I was thinking.
dto2 11y ago
Same, worst 1 year of my life working. And the problem isn't just Tony but a lot of his direct reports are really really bad. The real irony is hearing Tony say the company has a no asshole policy and that he wants Nest to not have assholes like Apple did. Fail. Fuck Nest and Larry.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago

Inevitablities from the Internet of things: Software glitches, personal data sold or served to the government, personal data stolen by a foreign government, hackers that freeze your house or crank up the heater till it breaks, hackers that spy on your kids with the cameras you installed, automated customer support lines. For some reason I get the feeling that adopting all of these "smart" devices actually makes me more vulnerable to risk and gives me less control over my life. I'll stick with my dumb house. After all, it was Socrates of all people who criticized writing and reading because he believed it made you worse at remembering things.

jarek 11y ago
> For some reason I get the feeling that adopting all of these "smart" devices actually makes me more vulnerable to risk and gives me less control over my life. Oh, of course it does. Consider: when are you more in control, when you know the city you're in inside-out, or when you're depending on Google Maps?
- rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
  Well, lemme think... 2012, October. I, an American from upstate NY, am traveling on the Queen Elizabeth Way to visit a friend in Toronto, a city I last saw at the age of 3. There are at least 6 lanes on the highway, packed with drivers so cantankerous and forceful that save for the autumn gray I could swear I was in LA. I'm approaching the city and a display by the road says the route is closed for construction. My maps app redirects me to another highway, which is completely closed after 15 miles of driving. Another redirect, all while forcing my way through the automobile equivalent of a massive hockey team. Suffice to say, I didn't know the city, and I didn't have the chance to unfold a map. The only part that was out of my control was the $300 in roaming charges.
  - jarek 11y ago
    Ah but I bet that the animations were beautiful and the icons all lined up perfectly

yuhong 11y ago

I remember when Nest hired a VP of security after I reported 768-bit DHE on one of their servers to Google security.

letitleak 11y ago
Sorry to go OT[1], but is there a link to their general (encryption/integrity) policies? I was shocked they are sometimes delivering the android studio via http and providing only sha1 sums. If your IDE is compromised, then who knows what code you might be signing.. [1](Well I considered it a related matter, as I have trouble telling what googles actually policies are and whether my attempts at feedback will be filtered by a group in some kind of crunch as described or by someone who will be neutrally considering actual policies..)
- kuschku 11y ago
  Android? Security? Are you joking? In the past weeks, several independent exploit chains from "App with no permissions" to "Bootloader takeover" have been published. Completely working on all versions except for Marshmallow, unpatchable on the older devices due to Android’s update model. It doesn’t matter what code you sign when literally any app could be a rootkit. Edit: Some of the chains are from the author of this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/42fxtg/android_mediaserver_privilege_escalation_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/42fxtg/android_medi...
  - letitleak 11y ago
    I'd not heard from no permissions, but as with a website, I still prefer things with my signature correspond to things from me and are nice even if the rest is a cesspool. Given these problems, I would seriously hope that the ~8 app makers I trust feel the same way.

murbard2 11y ago

I bought a Nest thermostat and I've been extremely unimpressed with it. It's not just the bugs that will have you wake up in the middle of the night in a freezing home. Even when it works as intended, the product is poorly thought out. - Instead of trying to learn when to apply heat and when not to, which depends on many contextual factors, it seems to be targeting learning a calendar. A calendar does not fully capture the knowledge about your schedule that a thermostat could gain. - It would be trivial for the thermostat to figure out if your phone is connected to your home network, indicating that you might be home and don't want to be cold. AFAIK, it doesn't bother doing that. I live on a different floor from my thermostat, and thus it often concludes that I'm away. I don't get it... Google clearly has more than enough in house talent to get those things right. Why aren't they? Why don't they seem to care?

tghw 11y ago
I've started using IFTTT to work around some of this. For example, I have it set home/away based on an IFTTT geofence. Unfortunately, IFTTT doesn't do home/away yet, but you can write your own trivial "app" to do it simply by registering as a dev and using the Maker channel in IFTTT.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- murbard2 11y ago
  This type of workarounds would make sense if we were dealing with a product built by a few makers and released as a set of blueprints online... This is produced by a company that Google, the most valuable company in the world, bought for $3.2B. It's weird that one needs to script around these issues.
  - eli 11y ago
    That's a workaround of IFTTT limits not Nest
    - 11y ago

rblatz 11y ago

The past few days when I walk by my nest thermostat in the morning I've seen an error saying that it isn't connected to my wireless network. When in fact it is connected, and can be reached through the nest app on my phone.

sjs382 11y ago

> Three former Nest employees independently brought up this same anecdote when describing how Nest had an internal culture where it was "always crunch time" because of unrealistic deadlines and a hierarchical management structure. Oh man, that sounds familiar...

askafriend 11y ago
"unrealistic deadlines and a hierarchical management structure" describes basically our entire industry....not to imply that we should accept this as the "norm"...but kinda funny the way they put it.
- sjs382 11y ago
  It's the "always crunch time" bit that resonated, along with the reasons why.
TTPrograms 11y ago
"He has a 68% approval rating on anonymous data-sharing site Glassdoor, but the several ex-employees Business Insider spoke to highlighted an atmosphere of "fear" and said that sitting near Fadell's office meant hearing a constant barrage of shouting." I really hope the people working there have opportunities elsewhere and are aware of their options. Nobody should feel obligated to work in an environment like that. If more engineers refuse to accept these conditions hopefully executives will be more hesitant to treat their employees this way.
- askafriend 11y ago
  Absolutely, not only are those poor employees doing themselves a disservice, but they really are doing the rest of us a disservice too by perpetuating those kinds of environments. The employees are the fuel of any company, and when you keep fueling a company with an environment like that, it sends a signal. Not a good one.
- pinewurst 11y ago
  The problem with Glassdoor CEO approval ratings is that they often don't reflect a really bad CEO lacking direct exposure to a lot of employees. In large organizations, perceived business success drives approval more than anything else. Look at Jeff Bezos with 81% - his success and that of the organization are very decoupled in this measure from personal experience of him. On the other hand, I know another Seattle organization with a CEO approval rate of 13% - it's small enough that all employees have (mostly negative) CEO contact.

demian0311 11y ago

I have Nest thermostat and a Nest camera. Thermostat is in the hallway and regularly thinks nobody is home. Camera knows I'm home because of movement (or I should be able to show it how to tell). But the Camera doesn't talk to the thermostat. You create a dependency when devices connect to the Internet and you may give up some privacy. In return I assume you'd get some intelligence and integration.

brandon272 11y ago
My #1 issue my Nest is that my house is always freezing in the winter because it always thinks I'm not home as I might be home but not necessarily walk in front of the thermostat routinely. Hence it switches to "Auto Away" mode. It would be nice if the Nest app I had on my phone could identify that I'm home (i.e. am I connected to my home WiFi network, or check my location via GPS) and then communicate that to my thermostat.
- notwhereyouare 11y ago
  I saw an app on the play store a while back that did exactly that. It worked with the nest API and your phone, you said what wifi's and what areas and it pinged the nest to keep it in home mode. It's called Away Smarter on the google play store. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.geeksville.awaysmarter https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.geeksville...
- _JamesA_ 11y ago
  My SmartThings supports a smartphone geo-fence to detect presence and an NFC fob if you don't want to link a phone. I don't understand why my Nest can't do that too. I get the feeling that Nest has transitioned from innovation to revenue.
- ecopoesis 11y ago
  We gave up on the auto-away stuff and use the Skylark app on our phones, which does geo-fencing. I agree that this should be a built in function of the Nest app, but a five dollar app as a workaround isn't too bad.

atonse 11y ago

I have a nest and it is a real piece of shit. I usually don't curse on HN but I can barely contain my hate for this product. My absolutely ugly, crappy old thermostat with a needle on it works WAY better than the nest (thankfully we have it upstairs where we sleep). When it's cold, we turn that needle up, and we get warm. With the nest, which is downstairs, when we're cold, we turn the nest up, we get weird "+2 hour" things, and nothing happens. The heater doesn't come on, we're freezing and the thing has a mind of its own. I have taken photos where I've set the thermostat at 90 degrees, the room is at about 60 degrees, and the Nest hasn't turned the heating unit on. This is a the worst kind of sin of user experience, when a user feels like the machine controls them, and not the other way round. As big a nerd as I am, and loved that the Nest shook up the thermostat industry, I absolutely regret buying a Nest. I wanted to love this product, but it fails spectacularly at the ONE thing it's supposed to do, which is to let us set a comfortable temperature for our house. Because of this experience, I absolutely avoid their smoke detectors (I was ready to buy three of them before buying the thermostat). I've told family and friends to stay away as well.

brandon272 11y ago
Are you sure that an ordinary thermostat "turns your heater on" right away? I know that my furnace, regardless of thermostat, doesn't audibly "turn on" right away. The burners fire up right away (which you can only hear if you're standing next to the furnace) and then the blower turns on some minutes later. In the summer, the Nest turns on the air conditioning unit right away.
- atonse 11y ago
  Oh definitely, because I'm not just standing there waiting for it to turn on immediately. There have been times when we're freezing, and I tell my wife "just turn the temperature all the way up" and then she says "I did a while back" and when I go to check, it's on 90. So we're talking 20 mins having passed and the heating unit barely coming alive, when in reality it should be on the whole time attempting to heat up to 90.
  - 11y ago

tsumnia 11y ago

I didn't work at Nest, but for 2011 to 2012, I was a Systems Analyst for a similar company - selling smart thermostats to Quick Service Restaurants (Taco Bell's and McDonald's). One of the hidden problems we had was maintaining "smart" control when the end-user's thermal comfort level wasn't lining up. We turn on A/C to help dry up some humidity, but what we regard as ok the end-user was now "freezing". The biggest issues and where I think the "always crunch time" mentality is due to the fact that customers ALWAYS have A/C or Heat. Messing with it leaves a very negative opinion, especially when we you think they want and what they really want don't match up. I remember tech supporting a call at 11pm on Christmas Eve because I was on duty and the steakhouse in Texas was having a party (Side note: AC units can't handle a lot of people in a confined space). Another time, I made trips to many fast food places the day before Thanksgiving since I was already driving that way to see family. I started at 6am and didn't get to my parents til 8pm. Sadly after the Nest and the Internet of Things spark, a report came out about a year later that pointed out just having a simple HVAC scheduler was all you truly needed to be energy efficient. All the "micro-savings" you have by using PID controllers to 'ramp up' and 'coast down' did nothing for savings. If I can dig up the report, I'll post a link to it.

philippnagel 11y ago
Please do. I would be very interested in said report.
- tsumnia 11y ago
  Sadly, it seems I can't of discontinued code when the company failed. Its been 4 years since I've seriously cracked that stuff open, so I can't find any of the research papers we looked at. A quick internet search brought me to this page though: http://ilsagfiles.org/SAG_files/Meeting_Materials/2015/6-23-15_Meeting/CLEAResult_Smart_Thermostat_WhitePaper_20150505.pdf http://ilsagfiles.org/SAG_files/Meeting_Materials/2015/6-23-... To say they "did nothing" isn't to say they weren't better; to have someone constantly controlling your thermostat can be beneficial, but a smart thermostat over a programmable one did " 6.55% on heating and 0.95% on cooling over a programmable thermostat baseline" in terms of savings.
11y ago

nommm-nommm 11y ago

The problem with "smart" anything is that the more features you add the more places there is to break. The coffee maker in my office has a color touch screen. What advantage is a color touch screen over a "dumb" mechanical switch? None, but I am sure its more likely to break and much more expensive to fix/replace. Yes, the touch screen has one button - make coffee. Then it plays animations while your coffee is brewing. Then it says "coffee done." In my opinion smart features should be added very sparingly and fill an actual need not just "oh, cool" or "cuz we could." Otherwise I'd pick the "dumb" version every time.

joezydeco 11y ago
Major portions of our economy function through planned obsolescence and doing everything possible in design to make old products look "old", even though functionality hasn't really changed from the old model. Think car manufacturing.
st3v3r 11y ago
Are you sure it's not the one that has options for the different sizes?
- culturestate 11y ago
  Even if it is, does that justify a touchscreen? My Nespresso supports three sizes by having three physical buttons; that doesn't strike me as particularly onerous.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  No, it only makes one size coffee.
driverdan 11y ago
They did a similar thing with our office elevators. They replaced the physical call buttons with a touchscreen. It doesn't do anything other than call the elevator. It's far less usable because someone who's blind can't use it.

bakul 11y ago

The 1st law of robotics: a robot must not do any harm to a human through its action or allow harm through its inaction. The 2nd law of robotics: a robot must obey an order given to it by a human, except when in conflict with the first law. Seems like the Nest thermostat isn't built to obey the above laws!

EdiX 11y ago
Those are the old laws, the new law is "humans are stupid, algorithms know better"
DrScump 11y ago
"Open the pod bay doors, Hal."

FireBeyond 11y ago

I've grown more and more disenchanted with my Nest. Reliability has gone way downhill - I used to be able to log in to the app and turn Away mode off before coming home to warm the house. Now? With the same WAPs, same firmware (on the WAP), same SSID, etc, most of the time (at least 75%) the app will act as if its sent the request (indeed, it initially is reporting 'realistic' figures from the thermostat as to current temperature and settings), and reflects the change (i.e. turning orange, saying Heat On). Except if you refresh the display. In which case it tells you that there's a communication error and it can't find your Nest. And the actions haven't actually gone through. And nothing you can do will change anything. Get home, hit "Home" manually? All of a sudden the app works again. Nest Support? "Likely a problem with your wireless access point not supporting WPA properly" Uhh? This used to work fine, the network is WPA2, and everything else on the network never complains.

maxaf 11y ago

I've once worked for a startup run by a CEO with a bulging Steve Jobs complex. I was miserable for four years, questioned my sanity often and almost wrecked my family and my health. I feel deeply for all Nest employees; their continued screaming misery is manifest in the poor quality of Nest products. Hopefully they'll have the good sense to quit before all is lost.

AaronBBrown 11y ago

I have had 3 Ecobee thermostats in my house for over 3 years. They have been extremely reliable and have an API, so I can do all sorts of fun stuff with them. Right now I'm working on hooking them up so my themostats change settings when the house is empty based on the presence of family member phones on our LAN.

swasheck 11y ago
that's pretty neat. i just got an ecobee for my birthday and love it, so far.

protomyth 11y ago

Software written by people who are working weekends / 50+hr weeks sucks. It is bad and buggy. It is really painful if it is running an appliance that has to work. The sooner managers get overworked programmers / engineers will lead to bad things which might lead to lawsuits, the better. I am hopeful that the Nest way of doing things is not replicated in their self driving cars.

bitwize 11y ago

No shit?! Nest, a real-life object-oriented breakfast food cooker[1] if ever one existed, is having trouble trying to crack the market for things people NEED like heating? Perish the thought! I live in the northeast. There is no way that I would trust heating my domicile to any cloud-based, internet-of-things-enabled gadget with as many potential failure modes as Nest has, let alone one with the actual failure modes we've seen. If you really want to make heating "smart", an Arduino, an RTC, maybe a temperature sensor for each room, and a way to enter desired heating schedules at the console or via short range wireless will suffice. But most people get by with their dial thermostats. [1] http://scienceagainstevolution.info/dwj/toaster.htm http://scienceagainstevolution.info/dwj/toaster.htm

bsg75 11y ago

TL;DR - Micromanaging executive is over his head, and compensates by bulling subordinates for his own shortcomings.

frabcus 11y ago

UK residents, British Gas's Hive is a good alternative to Nest here. No attempt to magically learn, really well made hardware and apps. The only software upgrade since I bought mine was a new "boost" button (turns heating on for 1 or 2 hours), which was the only thing I'd really wanted extra...

varunjuice 11y ago

If you haven't seen this interview of Tony by Aaron Levie, it's good insight into how Tony thinks. FWIW, more violent metaphors than I've heard in violent movies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsk3nagSDRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsk3nagSDRU

gluecode 11y ago

I was a service provider during the initial days of launch and for two years afterwards. Loved the people. They were driven to ship good looking products. That was their downfall. At Nest they were (at least then) focused on how things looked. Nobody cared about how it worked, or how the product should be supported after shipping. Anyways, no regrets. I met some of the best engineers and designers at Nest in the initial days. Afterwards, it became a A quality hiring B and B hiring C. Left hand did not know what the right was doing. The quality went down the drain. The management was terrifyingly dictatorial, top-down. Everyone was preparing for a Tony presentation/demo. They were afraid like kids do of the cruel headmaster. I wish them nothing but the best.

bby 11y ago
no ragrats

xauronx 11y ago

I was recently contacted by Nest due to a project I posted on Reddit. Evidently their head of engineering saw the project and told them to see if I'd be interested in working there. I said I would love to continue with the interview process... a week later they contacted me and said they were at capacity for developers and would not be proceeding. Really kind of crazy for a company of that size, in my opinion. Seems like a bullet dodged at this point. A little concerned for my little app project though. They're taking weeks to approve my API access, to the point that I feel they're damaging my chances of succeeding.

joshmn 11y ago

I interviewed for Nest. The experience was great, and they gave me an offer, but one of their employees tipped me off that there's a plethora of issues going on behind-the-scenes. Upon respectfully declining I received a text message from a number I didn't have in my contact book. Looking into it (being curious) it was a Twilio number. I sent a reply and got the standard Twilio message back. Then I got another text from another number, also a Twilio number, but it seems like they set it up correctly this time, as it didn't send the standard reply. I asked the employee who tipped me off if he had any idea. He stated, quote, "sounds like something Tony would do." There was a brief exchange with this second number — I was laughing during it, while they were heated (and disrespected, I think); the individual went out of their way to throw my dirty laundry in my face, mention how they were doing me a favor, bring up how desperately I needed the job because my mother's ill, and say that I'll never have a job again if I decline. Why would someone accept an offer because you threaten them? I don't know. Today, I'm casually looking for a new gig, though I don't think it has anything to do with Tony.

quietplatypus 11y ago

No one here has yet really considered the real elephant in the room: Why does anyone need an "intelligent" thermostat, especially something as overhyped and over-engineered as Nest is? I never even remotely bought into the Nest hype from the very beginning. Ditto on their smoke detectors. At least, you stop being such a baby and turn the heat up or down by yourself. Controversial, I know. At most, you put your thermostat on an automatic schedule, which can be done about a thousand different ways (timer circuit, dippy bird, microcontrollers that have already been manufactured and tested in a million different ways by more established companies).

brianwawok 11y ago
So there are some gains. For example if it knows it is an extra sunny day and its 11am, it could heat a little bit less and let sunlight so more. On the other hand, more fancy is more to break.
- discodave 11y ago
  No, a thermostat already solves that problem because it measures the temperature of the house and adjusts the heat accordingly.
  - brianwawok 11y ago
    Example for the predict temperature component. For example with honeywell: My house warms up to 70 degrees by 8 am, holds it there for 2 hours, by 10am it shuts off as the sun takes over warming. By noon it is 76 in my house and I am having to open windows to stay cool. With nest: My house warms up to 70 by 8, but is allowed to drift down to 67 by 10am because it knows the sun is coming. Sure enough it does, and warms up to 73 naturally and for free by noon. I not only saved 2 hours of running my furnace (8-10 am), I changed my max delta from my desired temperature from 6 degrees to 3 degrees.
    - quietplatypus 11y ago
      Ah, got it. So it's able to take into account outside factors that more efficiently get you to the target temperature. Okay, I see the value now. Thanks for the explanation!

discodave 11y ago

For all those complaining about quality / bugs in Nest devices, here is a talk that some Nest engineers gave at the 2015 Google Test Automation Conference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIoAq2Mjjas&list=PLSIUOFhnxEiCWGsN9t5A-XOhRbmz54IS1&index=16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIoAq2Mjjas&list=PLSIUOFhnxE... So there is at least somebody trying to improve things! Also, I think it's interesting to note that a company can produce buggy crap even while their engineers are turning up to conferences and saying all the right things.

irascible 11y ago

Nest is way overvalued. How can you screw up a thermostat or a webcam? Someone is going to eat their lunch.

pfarnsworth 11y ago

I think the Nest is okay, overpriced but nice-to-look-at thermostat. It's easy to use and easy to set up, and I haven't had any problems yet. There are a few failures, namely lack of access to data, which forced me to download the data myself and store it, violating the 10-day rule but I don't care. I would love for them to actually try to catch me. The bigger failure is the Dropcam. The acquisition has made the product much worse. The new Nest app is really slow and crashes all the time. Currently, one of my $200 cameras won't connect to the wifi, and I no idea why, but I'm so furious I don't care. I hate to say this, but the entire acquisition was a complete failure.

mojito 11y ago

Terrible place. Did some work for them a few years ago. They hired a lot of assholes that mirrored Tony's personality. Working with those people was the worst. And Tony is a control freak which led to an insular group of yes men. And they often ended up making costly or wasteful mistakes because good, calm, knowledgeable people were not able to make effective decisions in the defective culture around Tony. They also treated vendors like crap which is like kicking a dog. I hope they make some big changes.

mojito 11y ago