21 ms·

We're ditching the office completely

• minimaxir 11y ago
  Note: the article was posted about 4 months ago. (Oct 2015) One apparent consequence of all-remote working for Buffer is that having all the employees meet in real life is incredibly expensive and logistically complex: https://open.buffer.com/remote-work-retreats/ https://open.buffer.com/remote-work-retreats/
  • marknutter 11y ago
    No way it's more expensive than paying rent for an office in a trendy city and commuting to said office.
    • minimaxir 11y ago
      That's not what I was implying. I noted the Buffer retreat since that's a hidden cost of remote work I haven't seen people discuss.
      • marknutter 11y ago
        It's a completely optional cost, though, not a hidden cost. Plus it sounds like they allowed everyone to bring their partners and families, too. And, most companies that have physical offices also have corporate retreats or events, so it's not even really exclusive to companies that work remotely.
        • lmm 11y ago
          > most companies that have physical offices also have corporate retreats or events Citation needed. I'd never even heard of a corporate retreat before now.
          • sondr3 11y ago
            Valve flies out the entire company with families on vacation once a year.
    • deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    • jgrahamc 11y ago
      Actually, if you look at the data they published they show that the retreat was much more expensive than their rent. Retreat: 5.2% Office: 2.1%
      • 0xffff2 11y ago
        But they were never renting office space for their entire staff. If you really wanted to compare apples to apples (i.e., "Should everyone have an office payed for by the company" or "Should we have an annual retreat for the whole company"), a bit more analysis is needed.
  • rdl 11y ago
    Breaking down costs like that (per end user payment) is awesome; I'd never thought of doing that. (It's not very accurate in a lot of businesses, but it's an interesting way to think about things, so it's a useful tool.)
• fredleblanc 11y ago
  I guess I'm the flip-side of this. I work for myself, self-employed, and my office is the best $360 I spend each month. I need separation of space. My 15 minute walk ("commute") adds to the separation of work from home. The other thing is that there are two small children running around my house. I simply can't work there, or else I'd never get anything done. Our house isn't large enough to have a separate, dedicated office-space. I'd be constantly interrupted. I like the concept of remote working, even in a shared environment, but if I were working at that company and I no longer had a free place to go do work, I'd be looking for another gig.
  • TheDrizzle43 11y ago
    It works for some and not so well for others. I worked remote for 2 years and don't plan on doing it again anytime soon. The social isolation was hard to deal with.
    • hvmonk 11y ago
      ditto. I worked remotely for 10 months and don't plan to do it again. There is no substitute of the good feeling of hanging out together with team mates at same place.
      • workitout 11y ago
        Are you hanging out or working?
        • matwood 11y ago
          Don't be obtuse. You know it is not a binary thing. Work ebbs and flows throughout a day. No one works exactly from 8-12 then 1-5 and goes home. So working and hanging out can happen at work.
          • dang 11y ago
            Good point, but it would be a much better comment without the first 5 unduly personal words.
• amelius 11y ago
  It seems that they don't have a very good idea of where their employees are located exactly: http://i.imgur.com/XCHQstM.png http://i.imgur.com/XCHQstM.png
• eugenekolo2 11y ago
  Am I reading this right that 9 people are making an average of ~222K? edit: ~290K
  • lowpro 11y ago
    That's per month, which would be very roughly 290,000 per year I think, before taxes.
    • eugenekolo2 11y ago
      My bad, not sure how I got 222K. I don't get these numbers, if you assume it's for 9 employees, it's too high. If you assume it's for the 50 employees that they say they have, it's too low.
      • morgante 11y ago
        If we assume it's 50 people, that doesn't seem too crazy to me. That yields an average annual salary of $53k, which seems insane. Remember that Buffer underpays their engineers and also has a lot of non-engineering employees.
  • poof131 11y ago
    I don't think so. 9 people was mentioned in 2013. Tallying up the costs seems more current and the picture of the team shows 50 people.
  • fweespeech 11y ago
    https://open.buffer.com/transparent-salaries/ https://open.buffer.com/transparent-salaries/ No. It is more than 9 people.
    • eugenekolo2 11y ago
      Wow that's a great link! Cleared things up :)
    • moron4hire 11y ago
• ris 11y ago
  I can't imagine anything lonelier.
  • NeutronBoy 11y ago
    I was beginning to think I was the only technology worker who likes being in the office! I have the option of working from the office or from home, at least 2-3 days per week depending on what I have on. I much prefer working from the office. I enjoy hanging out and talking shit (and working) with my colleagues/friends, grabbing coffee, lunch somewhere nice, and when I leave at the end of the day I can flip from 'work mode' to 'home mode'.
    • rokhayakebe 11y ago
      at the end of the day I can flip from 'work mode' to 'home mode'. This is by far the most important decision criterion: the psychological cost.
  • gedy 11y ago
    I still have a life and family away from office, and remote work doesn't mean "don't leave the house".
  • untog 11y ago
    Yeah, I enjoy the company of my co-workers, we have a great time together. Including going out for drinks after work etc. If I didn't enjoy the company of my co-workers I'd probably just find a new job.
  • Nicholas_C 11y ago
    Same. I love being in the office despite the 30 mile commute. If you need to work with people it also makes it a lot easier.
  • thinkpad20 11y ago
    I was doing a text search in the comments for "lonely" and this was the only hit. Absolutely! My social life at work is very important to me. I like coming into work every day and seeing people I know, commiserating our challenges or celebrating our successes, joking around at the office, going out and having a good time outside of the office. Many of my best friends now are people I work with, and if I'd been working remotely (whether at home, in a coffee shop, etc) all this time, a natural introvert like me would have considerably fewer friends, my successes would feel less meaningful and my failures more personal. I've turned down offers to make more money writing a language I prefer to the one I write in now, because it would mean my primary interaction would be through a computer screen. I'm sure all are different, but I'd have to have a really good reason to have my primary mode of work be remote.
• jonesb6 11y ago
  Remote is good for some people and bad for others. At big companies there will be enough of both groups that going one-sided in either direction will hurt some people, and ultimately hurt the company (COUGH YHOO). IMO the best solution is a flexible working environment that can support everybody, especially in large cities where the commute can be an absolute grind in and of itself.
• draw_down 11y ago
  Here's why: cost! To be clear, I find it refreshing that they just come out and say it. It seems obvious to me that when you work remotely, you're paying for the office space, and any company that believes the savings in pushing the office-space expense onto the employee outweighs the benefit of holding offices will start moving in this direction. (Since this particular company pays for coworking space, they're not pushing the cost to employees. I'm speaking more generally) Having worked remotely for a substantial portion of my career, I have found the best for me is a mix of working at home and working from the office. That's my personal feeling, but still I think there are more downsides to remote work than many would like to consider.
  • rpedela 11y ago
    What are the downsides in your experience?
    • draw_down 11y ago
      Mostly around communication. Slack and IMs and video chat are great and all, but you can move way more information and have it be received much more clearly in person. There also can be a feeling of isolation, depending on how teams are structured and how many employees at the company are remote. Also, there is no "going to the bar after work for a couple beers", which for many is fine. But still humans require some measure of being physically near other humans, so you need to be much more proactive about socializing and seeing friends/family. If you aren't diligent about this you can become kind of a hermit. If you have young kids this is probably not a big deal, you'd be too busy anyway. Plus, like I mentioned before, you're now on the hook for the office space. Working remotely can lead you to justify paying for more house or apartment than you otherwise would have, because "well I need an extra room for my office". The freedom it affords is quite nice, so many would probably be fine with the extra outlay. But you should be clear about what you're paying for, and why.
      • wehadfun 11y ago
        My guess is any cost you incur from the home office would be offset by travel cost to/from work and you could probably write off a home office.
• jasode 11y ago
  >Which environment do you prefer, and why? I don't believe this question is interesting because I think we know that most HN readers will prefer remote working instead offices. It doesn't matter whether it's semi-private cubicles or noisy open floor plans. Offices suck. Commuting sucks too. Probably 95+% would prefer remote work if they could get it. >Do you think we should have kept our office or closed it? The more interesting question & answer is how the 100% remote strategy helps your business. Yes, you save $86k/yr in office rent. However, does the remote arrangement boost your employees' productivity so much that it helps Buffer beat other competitors (Hootsuite, Sprout, etc.)? Is the remote productivity enabling the ability of engineers to add features at a faster rate that you noticed subscriptions going way up? Etc. That's the business calculus that's more interesting to discuss. To be fair, it looks like author Courtney Seiter's background is writing/marketing and not business/engineering so it's understandable if she doesn't emphasize this angle. Also, the blog post is only 4 months old so they don't have a year's worth of financial performance to evaluate its effectiveness.
  • DanielBMarkham 11y ago
    The business calculus is extremely interesting. I know some HN'ers like to pit this as BigCorp simply trying to save money/control the workers, but in fact, if you're a true knowledge worker, it might be worth it to build you a small castle with a butler. The leverage a good worker creates is peanuts compared to any kind of working arrangement. So, as you pointed out, we get to the nitty-gritty part of this: do whatever you want for whatever reasons you want, but at the end of the day, is it helping you execute your mission better? Much better? Then keep doing that until you find your next improvement. 86K/yr for an office is nothing if your productivity suddenly starts tanking, or you're unable to adapt to rapid change. In fact, it's comparing a static number with a highly dynamic one. I'm not sure if such a comparison really makes much sense.
  • nstart 11y ago
    Well, even though the post is 4 months old, we've had remote employees from Beijing to SF for a while now. The economics of productivity is a super interesting question. And to share my thoughts on that, we have a company that basically never sleeps. At any given time there are a group of people working on stuff there. We have paid for tools that help us communicate in a manner where on a project, I can pick up where someone else left off. Whether we've beaten our competitors is a question I admit I Dont know the answer to. And I'm not sure if owning the entire space is something we want to do either. One of our bigger guiding principles is, do we have a solid product that people love using and are they happy with the support they get. On this front we know that the answer is yes. We always want to continue improving but we also are very happy with what we've created and done today :)
• jpkeisala 11y ago
  It's nice to read comments here as people are writing they like to work in the office. I also do like it. I am self-employed and in the longer run it is so boring to be alone at home when there is nobody to talk to. Funnily, when I was fulltime I dreamed to work from home.
  • striking 11y ago
    The grass is always greener on the other side, isn't it?
  • SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
    Fellow self-employed here, currently sitting in the office of one of my clients (as I do 2-3 days per week) despite them being more than happy for me to work from home. The fact that it's a small office with 4 other people (and they're great people) and a 20 minute commute through the countryside probably helps a lot, but I much prefer this setup than sitting all alone in my small home office all day.
• benatkin 11y ago
  I like this concept a lot! I'm not sure whether I would give each employee money for coworking space, because I think that would make me feel like I need to choose and commit to a coworking space, since otherwise it would seem that I'm throwing away the money. It would also make it sound like it's compensating for not having an office, which I think is a net win for the people who are going to enjoy working at a company with a remote culture.
  • cableshaft 11y ago
    What about if the company gave each person, let's say, $100 or $150 credit each month towards 'remote work amenities', maybe it has to be approved or expensed, maybe it rolls over, but it's given a very loose definition for anything that could be related to making work easier for you. So people who care about a separate office could put it towards a coworking space, while others might use it to eat out every day (to get themselves out of the house), and others might use it towards ergonomic chairs/keyboards/etc in the home, another uses it to clean their home once a month, another might use it for a gym membership, essentially whatever is important to the employee to make them feel more comfortable. Especially expenses that an employee might not be willing to pay for themselves if it was just considered straight up extra income.
    • benatkin 11y ago
      I like this idea! Also it would be good to pay for external monitors and keyboards. It would probably be best for them to be owned by the company to reduce costs, help with upgrades, and save tax. Maybe this would be a good use of leasing.
• wehadfun 11y ago
  Could some one explain why accounting/legal and payroll would be 5K per month for a company this size? It seems high to me.
• otakucode 11y ago
  Why do we have offices to begin with? Because they provided value. Past tense. Sure they were always expensive, but without bringing people together physically, it was nearly impossible to accomplish anything. Humans have a difficulty, rooted in the fundamental structure of our brains, to hold both the benefits and the costs of a situation in mind at the same time. Once we determine that something provides greater benefit than cost, the costs just disappear. It's a pragmatic shortcut, but it falls flat when the underlying assumptions change. The underlying assumptions have changed. The myriad costs associated with offices are no longer outweighed by the benefits they provide. That's partially due to the development of technology, and partially due to other changes, such as the adoption of productivity-poisoning 'open plan' offices. Our whole setup of how we work is based on manufacturing, and it hasn't been adapted to the very different work being done now. Even though technology has made individual workers so productive that the company can survive an open plan office and still not be able to provide most workers with enough to do to fill 40 hours a week, we still force them to have their butt in a chair for those 40 hours - more often more than that, the majority of which is done solely for appearances sake.
  • USNetizen 11y ago
    They still provide value, but in different ways. There are still things that can be accomplished far more effectively in an office than remotely. However, there are things that can also be achieved better remotely than in an office. There are many factors at play here, and a mix of this must be made by each company to suit its industry and personnel.
• deleted 11y ago
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• anjc 11y ago
  Um, I feel like this will have repercussions in terms of staff churn rate. Office spaces are one of the definers of culture, and culture is one of the main motivators for staff. I'm certain that remote working suits many people, but I doubt that it will allow a sense of 'loyalty' to arise in the worker.
  • p4wnc6 11y ago
    I can't tell if this is satire or not. Office "cultures" that involve inane things like alcoholic drinks, free boutique meals, or dog-friendliness have absolutely nothing to do with getting work done. They are things you have to roll your eyes about and put up with. You can't openly explain how unproductive it is, or you'll be labeled as "not a good culture fit" even if you're great at your job and get along with everyone. So instead, you have to let your frustrations silently brew under the surface, always wishing your company cared more about employees and gave them adequately quiet and private space to get work done, or gave everyone a raise instead of spending the money on video games, gourmet coffee, etc. Many engineers, especially experienced ones, are fully aware that all of these fringe "culture benefits" are just utter bullshit, and that they exist to try to hoodwink younger engineers into accepting worthless equity, criminally insane working environments, and exasperating, oppressive work culture that doesn't really permit good work life balance. They aren't fooled or enticed by them. They simply have to put up with them because it's what everyone is doing. And they have to act like yes-men when people ask if you like the new foosball table or that killer company party. And HR thinks it's really working. Your employees can't really afford recreation or adequate living space or decent meals based on what they are paid, so instead bring the recreation to work, bring the meals to work, and just have people stay at work all the time. We're aware of this, and unfortunately until people start telling shitty companies 'no' and insisting on being treated better (or software unionizes) it's not going to improve, and everyone's going to continue having insane shitty working conditions, but paper over it with all smiles about how cool Whisky Thursday is or whatever other bullshit none of us actually care about at all.
    • jholman 11y ago
      You don't appreciate office cultures involving alcohol or dog-friendliness, and you roll your eyes and put up with them. Some people do value those things, and they also value having coworkers who value those things, which isn't a surprise because most humans value community (though of course different humans have different ideas about what constitutes community). So when you flat-out lie to your coworkers about your feelings, you're undermining the social fabric, for your pecuniary gain (e.g. because you don't want to be correctly labelled a "bad culture fit", because you like the salary). That deceit is straight-up unethical. It's also disrespectful to assume that your coworkers don't know what's actually valuable to them. Some people prefer an extra $5k in salary, some people prefer $4k of free meals. Or $6k of free meals that costs the company $3k because of scale. Or whatever. Some people are investing in their long-term growth by deeply immersing themselves in their careers (and perhaps working non-long-term-sustainable hours), and if the company provide some cheap bennies that make that easier to do, so much the better. Yes, the company profits, and no the employee isn't maximizing short-term earnings, but maybe it's still win-win. If employees really can't afford recreating or adequate living space, then of course that's a problem. I'm skeptical that's a real problem in software, though. And if that problem does exist, btw, then I think the best solution is those employees going and finding careers/lifestyles that fit better. I want to add that I found this comment particularly startling because most of the comments I most agreed with on this page were also by you, p4wnc6.
• seany 11y ago
  Awesome. I really wish more companies did this.
• neya 11y ago
  I used to work from my bedroom, in my old home a few years ago. Initially, it felt like the best thing to do. But, as time passed, there were committment issues and potential distractions. Some of them included stuff like answering the door, unwanted guests (and friends) and because it was my bedroom, I just slept more often (no more tiresome 48 hour hackathons). Then, as time passed, I realized, the distinction between your workplace and your leisure space is an important one. Later, I rented out a moderately expensive serviced office space by one of the local providers and it had served me well. Even the people around you can perceive this distinction and respect your boundaries if you work in an office-like atmosphere that can be perceived. To be clear, it's not wrong to work from home. IF you have a separate room for your work and you treat it like an office room, it's actually the best way to go (convenience and savings). But if you were in a situation like me where you had to choose between the bedroom and a leased office space, go for the latter and it will definitely add an improvement to your quality of professional life.
  • ghaff 11y ago
    I have a very nice custom-designed office at home with big monitors, keyboard tray, Aeron chair, etc. I used to use that as my workplace when I worked from home (which was most of the time when I wasn't traveling.) But, for whatever reason, I've found myself gravitating to just working on my laptop in various rooms in my house. The variety works for me. (I can work outside in the summer but usually don't because of glare, etc.) In general, I think I needed the discipline of dressing as for the office and working in my dedicated office for a time but feel less need for the structure today.
    • jakebellacera 11y ago
      I agree. Working from home will test your discipline, and I personally cannot work in pajamas and blur the lines between my personal life and my work (though it's convenient to have the option if needed). Like you, I need to have some variety. Working from home can get extremely boring, and I never really thought that I needed a bunch of social interaction until I began working from home. I really enjoy doing it (been going strong for about 3 years now), but I can't just sit at my desk all day either. I like to get out, go to coffee shops, friends houses, co-working spaces, and even the office about 2-3 days a week. I personally see working from home not as I'm literally working from home, but that I'm not tethered to my desk in the office. As long as I have an internet connection, I can work from anywhere. It's really nice.
• deleted 11y ago
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• biztos 11y ago
  I have often wondered what I would do about the Office Question if I started a company, since any company I might start is very likely to be distributed due to geography (mine and my network's both). Usually I end up with the idea that everyone would work from "home," and would be encouraged to use co-working (company-paid) if they wished; and I might maintain a minimal "HQ" assuming it was more than just me at that location; and I'd build in regular face-to-face team meetings into the business plan, say at least every quarter. The only problem is, I'm not sure I'd want to work that way myself if I were an employee. I think I'd want an office: preferably one to myself. I currently work from home, and have previously rented office spaces (both shared and not) at my own expense; and at various times I've worked in the HQ, branch offices, and various combinations of all these things, for a few different tech-related companies. I would probably rent another dedicated office right now, but my rental apartment has a guest room so it seems decadent. But I'm still tempted, and check the listings every couple of weeks. I would say that for me, working in software development and also doing "creative" work, having a separate space easily made up in peace of mind and probably in productivity what it cost in money. (In a high-rent zone like San Francisco that probably wouldn't hold.) But I found a coworking space too annoying, and probably would not go back to that if I could avoid it. I found the big advantages to a rented space were, in order: 1. Freedom from distractions (usually; neighbors make noise too). 2. Work-only nature of the space, i.e. you go there only to work. 3. Ability to set it up as I like (decoration, layout, etc.). 4. Got my butt out of the house and out amongst the humans more often. 5. Your feelings about Home don't get so mixed up with your feelings about Work. 6. You can still opt to work from home when you really feel like it. Disadvantages vs home office: 1. "Shared resources" (kitchen, bathroom, etc.) might not live up to your normal standards of utility or hygiene. 2. Neighbors pay rent too, and are thus unlikely to change their habits at your request. 3. Expense (though this is very location-dependent). 4. Commute, while probably a good thing overall, eats time. 5. Your landlord, like most landlords, may suck. None of this in any way contradicts the idea of going all-in on remote teams, but it does raise a question: if you're doing it for the competitive advantage of high productivity, might it be better to spend more on offices that are themselves distributed? (FWIW: Married, no kids, and neither one of us works a 9-5 schedule.)
  • ghaff 11y ago
• p4wnc6 11y ago
  The answer is really simple, and has been well-known at least since the time of the book Peopleware and the studies it cited. Provide a real office environment for every knowledge worker. You know ... a door that shuts ... a window ... space to allow your gaze to adjust. Things that are ... human. It's really simple. And before you say it costs too much, it doesn't. The problem is that you're in denial about how much your current offices with open floor plans are costing you. You merely think the cost is equal to the rent. It's much greater than the rent, though, because of lowered productivity, lowered morale, increased superficiality of important inter-worker communication, incessant interruptions disrupting developer flow, more sick time, etc. etc. If you didn't pretend like those aren't affecting you, and you actually counted their cost, you'd see that the extra cost in real estate for offices is well worth it even in short-term scenarios like 1-year where you're using your start-up runway to pay for it. Even in San Francisco. Even in Manhattan.
  • usaphp 11y ago
    I don't know but for me working in an open office is a positive experience, I feel joy talking to coworkers from time to time, sitting in a separate room is quite depressing and might drop the productivity for some people even further then time you lose chatting with coworkers
    • workitout 11y ago
      Have you considered a line of work more suited to an extrovert personality?
      • ams6110 11y ago
        The funny thing is, in my experience the most extroverted people (the sales team) all have offices, and the introverted programmers are all stuck in a bullpen.
        • p4wnc6 11y ago
          Status once again. There's actually quite a lot of formal research on this, such as here: < http://homepages.se.edu/cvonbergen/files/2013/01/Reversing-the-Extraverted-Leadership-Advantage_The-Role-of-Employee-Proactivity.pdf http://homepages.se.edu/cvonbergen/files/2013/01/Reversing-t... >
• brainpool 11y ago
  Is this for real? It's like 2001 never happened. Bunk beds from IKEA? No, you can't have my office. You ditched yourself completely. Buffer.
• eva1984 11y ago
  Good, why should we follow? Nahhhh
• EwanG 11y ago
  OK, reading through all this, I'm wondering if there isn't a compromise approach needed. For myself, I go in each morning for a couple hours. If there are no meetings that require my physical presence, then I drive home, and work the rest of the day from there. Sometimes that means home at 10am, others closer to 3pm, and occasionally 6pm. But it means I am available to comingle when it makes sense, available to be run into for at least a couple hours a day, and almost always home before traffic gets bad. It also means I don't mind working past 5 most days as if I was in the office I wouldn't get home until then due to the traffic. Maybe this kind of half and half approach would be ideal for others?
  • disantlor 11y ago
    This is my ideal as well and over time I've been somewhat able to implement in practice. I much prefer the lack of distractions etc, vs. the open office at work but I also must begrudgingly admit that there are many times (especially in the mornings for whatever reason) where I overhear things and address problems much more quickly as a result.
• rtl49 11y ago
  A startup with little brand recognition posts a blog entry concerning a topic of general interest to a demographic whose attention it seeks. A predictable discussion emerges with the company as a backdrop. Everyone rejoices that the topic has been broached, because they have well-informed, unique opinions to offer on the subject. Brand recognition is achieved, and because of the photographs of smiling, laid-back young people contained in the blog entry, the impression on the target demographic is a positive one. Everyone forgets it happened, and the cycle repeats again next week.
  • brainflake 11y ago
    Do you really think Buffer has little brand recognition? That's very surprising that anyone here would think that.
    • rtl49 11y ago
      I don't know. I've never heard of it and I read HN daily. Maybe it's because startups don't interest me. Either way, I just think it's funny how these topics, which people clearly want to discuss regardless of what the Buffers of the world are doing, always have to be centered on a company's PR.
      • 0xffff2 11y ago
        For what it's worth, you're not the only one. I read HN for technology oriented news and interesting articles and because I live in Silicon Valley part of the year. I've never worked for a startup and probably never will and I've never heard of Buffer.
  • anonbanker 11y ago
    It's a little startling when that much truth is not only posted to HN, but not greyed out.
• alblue 11y ago
  Tried reading this on my phone, got three paragraphs in and then got slammed with a full screen advert for buffer.com. I mean, what's the point in advertising the site that you are already on? I have no idea what the rest of the post was about but I'm pretty sure that I never want to deal with buffer.com again.
• alblue 11y ago
  Tried reading this on my phone, got three paragraphs in and then got slammed with a full screen advert for buffer.com. I mean, what's the point in advertising the site that you are already on? I have no idea what the rest of the post was about but I'm pretty sure that I never want to deal with buffer.com again.
• csomar 11y ago
  we noticed that office space was a not-insignificant element of our overall expenditures each month—more than we paid for health insurance, or advertising and marketing. Office space cost them 2.1% of all of their monthly costs. This is "not-insignificant" Am I reading this right? If anything, they are under-paying for their office space.
  • 0xffff2 11y ago
    I think they obviously were underpaying compared to their total number of employees, since they only had one office in San Francisco, and as far as I can tell they never had more than half of their employees living in SF.
• USNetizen 11y ago
  Having worked remotely for over 6 years and then having run my own company, I can easily say that there are benefits and drawbacks to both approaches - office and fully remote. It really depends on the industry and the team. I have found that offices do tend to improve communication through instant access to people and feedback, whereas remote work sometimes requires incessant scheduling of meetings. Instant messaging and such can help, but it is not as immediate nor is it a replacement for face time. However, working remotely is a great feeling of freedom and control over your personal environment, which can lead to better personal productivity, provided the person has enough discipline to ignore distractions (if the office is one's home). It is also a personal preference. As a software engineer, I loved remote work because I could code in peace without distraction. However, some personalities could never stand this much solitude and prefer the hubbub of a traditional office, however distracting it could potentially be. I even knew people who worked remotely that would venture outside and chat at length with neighbors just to have that feeling of human contact that is sometimes lacking with full remote work. That being said, with the industry I work in, my customers expect a traditional office. So, implementing a mix of remote and office time has worked best for us. There are some stipulations, however, for remote work we enforce - such as childcare must be taken care of by someone else (e.g. school, daycare, spouse, etc.) while working remotely and background noise is to be minimized so as to treat it as a true professional environment. Nothing is worse than when you're on a conference call with major clients and hear crying or barking in the background. And I say this as someone with children and pets myself.
• nstart 11y ago
  Hi all, I'm currently with buffer in the bootcamp period. I've loved every moment of it. Agree with a lot of the sentiments here, especially the separation of personal and professional lives. Working with the buffer team has allowed me to pick where I work from each day. Some days it's a coffee shop, a lot of days it's a tiny co working space I've found. Sometimes that space gets a little noisy, so I move over to my friend's office. I've got about another 4 places that have open invitations for me to drop in and work from there. So overall, pretty awesome. Would love to answer any questions too :)
• Spooky23 11y ago
  What do you do if you have a family? I have small kids. No way I could handle working from home.
  • ivanca 11y ago
    You can create an space/room that family can't enter (at office hours), or if you want an easier route just work from a coffee shop near you.
    • spinningarrow 11y ago
      Is it common in the US for coffee shops to have decent wifi? The wifi at Starbucks where I live sucks - you have to keep reconnecting every 30 minutes and even during the 30 minutes it's not very stable.
  • carrja99 11y ago
    Funny I know a lot of people with remote jobs who have kids. Often times than not the employer will pay for a co-working space if it is needed.
• serge2k 11y ago
  > Not long after we tallied up every penny of what your money is used for when you purchase a Buffer subscription, we noticed that office space was a not-insignificant element of our overall expenditures each month—more than we paid for health insurance, or advertising and marketing. and here is the real point. We can save money. I think remote options are a great idea. I also think that forcing workers to take their work outside the office is a lousy idea.
• steveoc64 11y ago
  Having a look at the company in question, and the products that they produce. I only got as far as the "Diversity Dashboard" to realize that this organization doesnt actually produce anything. If you don't produce anything real, then you probably don't need any space to do it in. Meanwhile, the ranks of the unemployed, the hungry, the homeless, and the disenfranchised continue to grow, as any useful capital that remains in circulation is eaten up by these parasitic sectors of the economy. Im sure that the country has a bright future ahead, where everyone can make a meaningful contribution - such as serving hot dogs and coffee with a smile, or just helping everybody else establish an impressive social media profile. The rest of the world will be so grateful that they will continue to purchase our debts, extend additional lines of credit, and provide all the manufactured products, food, and energy that we need (but can no longer produce)
• jsudhams 11y ago
  I wish world realizes this makes this happen.... I think for manufacturing work and so on it made sense build cities.. now if we make as much as work from home then the villages and towns will keep its face and continue have facilities and will grow. Cities wont be over crowded, less traffic etc.. i think there is value to coming to office and social network and so on but i also it is based habits so once majority works from home (with video etc..) then it will become norm... In countries like India we can easily tap top talent which is actually women(in the schools).
• sebringj 11y ago
  Why are people in their own cubicles video conferencing and chatting to others in the same office? Because its convenient and saves time, you on-site proponent hypocrites. If cost isn't the significant factor to being remote then time and convenience sure is. I have two or three extra hours of productivity not driving into the office (no round trip), settling into a cubicle, chit chatting, picking where to go to lunch and of course avoiding tension headaches and sleepiness from sitting in traffic. I also have time to work out that I didn't before. I'm more balanced in my life. I'm 10 years and going strong remote as a programmer/consultant with tons of energy and free time to do what I want while being highly paid. My wife is at home with me along with my kids and the most driving we do is your typical errands. Cost for me is much lower as we only need one car and I can write off office space in my house. I have a hypothesis about these studies showing that onsite is better aside from being the business culture propaganda it is: People are generally social creatures and find communication most effective in presence as it strengthens learning via increased dopamine response (reward system), however, the outliers in the bell curve don't need this type of stimulation, in fact it may make them less effective. Several remote workers I've met over the years along with myself simply don't need that and find video, chat, docs and email more effective in communicating over in-person meetings on whiteboards. As a programmer, I care more about the idea being presented or discussed than the people themselves. I find I personally work much more effectively in my own space and I know the remote teams I've worked with find a similar experience. This is probably the outlier which is why these studies find it more effective to the contrary. It depends on the type of person and that type of person not needing social feedback in-person is more rare. I would say I receive less dopamine overall or find the in-person experience less pleasant because of all the extra overhead (time) needed just to start the day. I simply hate inefficiency and see having to go in as very annoying, it reduces the social benefit to being pointless in my case. Don't get me wrong, I seem very far from a nerd in person and am very successful socially in general with men and women. I'm the type of guy that tells jokes and has the zinger comebacks always on the tip of my tongue, can get everyone laughing and can communicate very well. The thing is I don't even miss any of this as I can do this on video anyway daily. It is a choice for me to come to the office or not and I simply don't choose to 99% of the time. I am even thinking the bell curve outliers are starting to move toward the center as older people die off and technology becomes more "real".
• Kiro 11y ago
  I can guarantee that our productivity would drop significantly if everyone at my office started working remotely. Pretty sure this is a bad idea for most companies.
  • techaddict009 11y ago
    Yeah it varies case to case. Some companies are meant to work together. Some are meant to work out remotely. And some can work both ways. And Some can work jointly part from office and part from remote.
• sagivo 11y ago
  the more startups adopt the open-office model, the more people want to work from anywhere else.
• mmaunder 11y ago
  Our team is remote and we're 9 full-timers with a few contractors in the infosec space and it works incredibly well. I want to add that the main reason to work remotely isn't really about saving on office rental. We take that cash and put it back into our employees home work environment and tools like awesome hardware. The biggest benefit for us is that our team is able to have a better work-life balance and keep a high level of productivity. e.g. One of our engineers used to have a 40 minute commute either way morning and evening. Now he works from home and can spend more time with his family instead of in his car. It also lets us hire from all over the World. Our full-timers are all in the USA and we have people in Ohio, Florida, Maine, Washington and Tennessee. So it's a really diverse group but we're also very tight knit even though some of us have never met in person yet. Several in our team work in small towns so they enjoy a slower pace and more quiet time which (coming from a small town myself) I think lends itself to solving complex problems. I'd agree that it's all or nothing with remote teams or you risk alienating half your workforce. The best advice I can give any company going remote is to get Slack or an equivalent like IRC. It does a fine job of replacing the day to day contact you have with team members. Also twice weekly all-hands calls to sync up are great - we do voice not video and we go around the room and everyone updates us on what they're working on. In a way we have a greater sense of what everyone is doing than some brick and mortar companies I've worked for. I think for software businesses remote working will be the way everyone works 20 years from now. It'll take a while for larger companies to make the shift because there is no very large company that does this yet but there will be and they'll prove the model and the imitators will follow. It's also way better for the environment.
• bobby_9x 11y ago
  I work for myself and finally got an office after 2 years. It's so much better than working from my home. Less distractions and I can completely separate home/work. When I was working for someone, I hated working from an office because I had no freedom and the bosses/managers constantly watching me. It was stifling and I felt like I was in a prison. It's funny how things change.
• z3t4 11y ago
  I find it funny that payment fees are double the office rent. And they decide to close the office. There are no reason why payments over the Internet has to cost that much!
  • morgante 11y ago
    There is if you want to have customers. Unless you're a niche business, you better accept credit cards.
    • z3t4 11y ago
      It's not like credit companies are shipping gold nuggets across the states when you make an online payment. Money is just an abstract value that exist on a balance sheet. There is no reason why we can't have fast, low fee, micro-transactions via the Internet.
      • bbcbasic 11y ago
        Probably due to the cost of managing the operations including dealing with compliance, fraud, chargebacks, refunds, disputes and suchlike. Also this whole silly rewards points thing that many of the cards seem to do needs to be paid for somehow. And that's just the credit card company, not the processing company taking payment on the internet who will want their cut, and may do their own fraud/refund/dispute handling too.
      • morgante 11y ago
        > There is no reason why we can't have fast, low fee, micro-transactions via the Internet. Perhaps, but I wouldn't bet your company on that. Feel free to accept Bitcoin and alternatives, but it'd be suicidal to not accept credit cards.
• xupybd 11y ago
  I'd love to remote work. But I've learned a lot working in the same office as some very talented developers and managers. I'm not sure I'd get that remotely.
• galfarragem 11y ago
  Working in an office is not the real problem. The real problems are the lack of working hours flexibility and commute time.
• kampsduac 11y ago
  I work at a fortune 500. Most of the dev team I am on work in the same office, but there is zero benefit to going into the office as most customers and project members are remote. The grey cubicle shreds my sole anyway, I love working from home.
• elcapitan 11y ago
  That sqwiggle tool they use (described here https://open.buffer.com/remote-working-means-tools-use/ https://open.buffer.com/remote-working-means-tools-use/) sounds pretty creepy. A software taking a pic of my face every few seconds and broadcasting it is almost as annoying as having someone in your back all the time, I think.
  • palimpsests 11y ago
    absolutely. it's horrifying... the cheery PR around all of this is what I'm finding to be the most disturbing
• snarfy 11y ago
  I worked from home for a couple years. One thing that made it work was having a separate work computer with a separate desk. If I'm sitting in that chair at that desk, I'm at work. If you have family they need to know not to talk to you when you are at work.
• agentgt 11y ago
  I too like many others work from home and to complicate it I own my company... so I have very little separation of work and personal life. But I love it. One of my favorite things is I can play my own damn music as loud as I want! And yeah It may not be psychologically ideal but humans are pretty adaptable. You just have to develop new habits and behavior. Some of the things I do to help the work/life balance: * My wife calls me at 4:30-5:00pm everyday to tell me to wrap up my shit or else... this is pretty critical as I can easily get in the zone and the heads up expectations for some reason works. * I try to walk every day on the days I don't lift weights * I have a home gym. And despite what people think you don't need a lot of space. There are so many space saving products out there (like quickly collapsable pullup/dip bars, weighted vests etc).
• lazyant 11y ago
  $6k for legal, payroll and accounting? is this normal for a 6 people company? (I guess it depends on if you retain a legal team)