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Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Return Home

189 points by peterkelly 11y ago

technofiend 11y ago
Allegedly many of the migrants are economic refugees in addition to or instead of political ones. No doubt if you're thinking Europe is full of high wage jobs and fat benefits for unskilled or low-skilled labor you'll be disappointed.
- aikah 11y ago
  > Allegedly many of the migrants are economic refugees in addition to or instead of political ones. Whether one can be defined as "economic refugee" is questionable. One is not going to get asylum anywhere in Europe because one is fleeing from "unemployment". The expression makes little sense. These are economical migrants, who came to Europe illegally for the most, especially those who can afford to go back home because Germany didn't give them the job, the house and the welfare they thought they were entitled to.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    > One is not going to get asylum anywhere in Europe because one is fleeing from "unemployment". Quite true, asylum is not granted, but it is still very difficult to send back those whose asylum application is rejected. Often it is not even clear where to send people "back" because they have no papers (human traffickers instruct them to destroy or hide passports) and no one can really tell where they came from. The applicants have a right to appeal the decision; process takes years, then people make a new residence permit application based on "changed circumstances" (for instance, starting a family or having studied something) and more time passes. This will be particularly flammable in cases where even hardened criminals cannot be deported because now that they are criminals, their home country (if known) definitely won't take them back. And then the applicants may simply leave one country and emerge in another one as new applicants (unless biometric tracking is really started and made working). I predict volatile times and violence for Europe.
    - Khaine 11y ago
      And this is why the Australian Government uses offshore processing. These people don't get to come to Australia. This has significantly deterred economic migrants from entering via boat. Leftists and Europeans derided it as a violation of human rights. Now I be many are secretly wishing they had implemented it.
      - kraut123 11y ago
        The left's intolerance veers toward totalitarianism.
      - a_bonobo 11y ago
        > This has significantly deterred economic migrants from entering via boat. This is hard to say - under "Operation Sovereign Borders" all boat arrivals are military secrets, so there's not much data on arrivals except what the government announces. The Australian navy has literally towed back boats in defiance of international laws (Wikipedia: "In August 2015, minister Dutton stated that since December 2013, 633 people on 20 vessels have been subject to turnback operations, including a boat from Vietnam in July), so at least on that front the boats haven't been quite stopped (they just don't go all the way any more). And as for the violation of human rights: you have a right to seek asylum. You're conveniently forgetting that people who have been placed on Nauru by the Australian government have been murdered and raped, completely unnecessary. Quote Wikipedia again: >In 2015, several staff members from the detention centre wrote an open letter claiming that multiple instances of sexual abuse against women and children had occurred.[6] The letter claimed that the Australian government had been aware of these abuses for over 18 months.[7] This letter added weight to the Moss review which found it possible that "guards had traded marijuana for sexual favours with asylum seeker children".[8] [9][10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Regional_Processing_Centre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Regional_Processing_Cent... We can't really judge the situation there because journalists or international observers are not allowed in.
        Khaine 11y ago
        > This is hard to say We do know that IMAs have significantly decreased. As the department reports on the numbers in detention[1] (See figure 1) The ABC also kept a log of all reports[2] 1) http://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/statistics/immigration-detention-statistics-30-dec-2015.pdf http://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/st... 2) http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/log-of-boat-arrivals-and-other-asylum-seeker-incidents/5014496 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/log-of-boat-arrivals-a...
- rimantas 11y ago
  Well there are stories that they were told by trafficers that they will get a house, a job, and a car upon arrival.
  - ktRolster 11y ago
    Yeah, that's kind of what the guy in the article thought, quote: > He arrived in Belgium with this in mind: > “I was expecting them to give me a house, > a good job, so I could have a better life. > This is what I was dreaming about.”
- shitgoose 11y ago
  'Europe is full of high wage jobs and fat benefits for unskilled or low-skilled labor' labor? you mean - like, work, right? europe is full of welfares and free housings and subsidies. no migrant is going to labour here, just accept what is rightfully theirs. labour is for local suckers.
  - xufi 11y ago
    The welfare and the free housing have caught up with some who have joined the Euro (Greece/Portugal) and look where they are now.
  - badlogic 11y ago
    Where in Europe can you find free housing? Are you talking about refugee centers? Monthly payments to refugees which are immediately send to respective landlords?
    - shitgoose 11y ago
      all of the above. the bottom line - they are not paying for it from their pocket.
k-mcgrady 11y ago
Interesting article. I'm very pro-Europe taking in refugees. It seems however that the guy in this article moved because he couldn't get a job in his own country and thought he would instantly get one here - not a chance when a lot of Europeans are still struggling to find work because of the economy. It also sounds like he was pretty close-minded in regards to integrating into a new culture/diet/environment. Unless the article isn't telling us something or I misread this guy wasn't really a migrant - this was a man who wanted to move to a new country and didn't like it very much but he took the illegal route in instead of applying for a visa. He wasn't forced out of his home, his life wasn't at risk etc. Like I said, I think we should be helping refugees in every way we can but it really seems like this guy isn't a refugee.
- rimantas 11y ago
  > this guy wasn't really a migrant He was migrant by defintion. Not a refugee though. > he was pretty close-minded in regards to integrating into a new > culture/diet/environment I wonder, what is the percentage of those hundreds of thousands who do not have the same mindset. Alas, the thinking of those pro-Europet-taking-in-refugees is somewhere along the lines: 1. Take in all the refugess 2. ... 3. Integration done. There is no magic for the step 2. And there is the big misundrestanding how deep the difference between the cultures is. Also, the not undrestanding that Islam is not just religion, is the way of life—and the way not very much in agreement with the western one. Especially when the western way is considered subpar and the wrong one. Good luck in thinking that a few lecutres on European values will change all that.
  - seivan 11y ago
    Lee Kuan Yew has had the same experience with the close mindedness of certain cultures and being hard to integrate. My parents noticed the same with people from the same countries as them. Even I noticed early on in school how hard it was for teachers to mention certain progressive ideas without pissing off a bunch guys in my class. I never gave it a second thought until recently. It's an uphill battle for any country that relies on sweeping issues under the rug instead of managing them up front.
ap3 11y ago
I guess this guy is not a refugee in the sense that things are ok for him to go back to family
drinchev 11y ago
This article is obviously about a person, that is an illegal migrant, not a refugee. > “I felt like I couldn’t live in an open society,” > said Aqeed Hassan, 26, who plays the clarinet and, > back in Baghdad after going to Finland, is trying > to get a job in a military band. > “My wife has her head covered, and I didn’t feel like they liked Arabs.” The whole debate with migration is that IMHO the real refugees need to visit psychologists, when they arrive here. They've suffered war, laws that declare gender-inequality ( soft words for what those laws actually are, but anyway ), homo-phobic state-politics, etc. Those are all things that western world fight ages to make it right ( yes, including war ) and people that have lived in different society can't understand by just "living" there. I'm really happy to know people from Syria, Pakistan, Taiwan & Japan. It's so cool when we all try to understand more about the way we live our every-day life , but on the other hand all of us will feel offended if forced to change it. No matter what "When in Rome, do as the Romans do ...", if you can't just leave.
- cgio 11y ago
  Romans, and Greeks especially under Alexander, changed their lifestyles significantly to accommodate influence from subjects of their conquests. It comes with the imperium package.
  - izacus 11y ago
    Good job on nitpicking on a language phrase instead of answering the content of the post :/
    - cgio 11y ago
      Which part was not an answer to the Content of the parent?
  - hetman 11y ago
    What imperium does Finland control exactly?
    - 11y ago
tdkl 11y ago
> “They were surprised,” he said. “But I told them I’d rather die in my country than die outside in a strange country.” Well since most of the so called Syrian (and many other countries too) "refugees" are healthy young men, I really don't know what are they doing in EU (expecting wellfare money probably) instead of fighting for their own country for better tomorrow (what all young men did in their age around the world since dawn of time). Europe as it is today didn't came for free.
- jahnu 11y ago
  > (expecting wellfare money probably) instead of fighting for their own country for better tomorrow Hacker News: Taking armchair coaching to a whole new level. Sometimes I despair at the lack of empathy that is possible.
  - tdkl 11y ago
    I'll add armchair coaching from someone in a small EU country which still has its language because his both grandfathers didn't bail and ran away, for which I'm forever grateful of the responsibility they took.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - wfn 11y ago
      Whatever one's musings on the status and the notion of ethnic states etc., I don't think the situation is comparable. In my (our?) case (Baltic states), there was (more of) a concrete "bad Other", whereas in Syria a proxy war (or an array thereof) is taking place. One can perceive it as multiple groups of interest fighting, with the backing of multiple actors (and the background struggle of the extent of those actors and their backing is what might determine the outcome, if any). It is easier to grok a meaningful armed struggle (which one may partake in, hypothetically) - after all, it is tangible and concrete, and there's always a bad side (isn't there), etc.; but in the completely messed up state of affairs that people in Syria find themselves in, one can't but deduce that they are in a war zone with no certain optimal equilibrium which one can attempt to bring the future to. And that is really a different picture altogether, I would think.
danieltillett 11y ago
I personally have never understood the logical difference between a political refugee and an economic one. It is OK to claim asylum because you have odious political views, but not because you children are starving.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  It doesn't explain why they defined it so, but modern usage can at least be coming from the definition given in the Geneva Convention, which doesn't mention poverty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_relating_to_the_Sta... I guess in 1950 the lines between rich and poor countries were even starker, with the rich ones not really having the capability to deal with all the poor that would want to claim economic asylum.
- tyingq 11y ago
  It may just be that asylum for purely economic reasons doesn't scale in a way that would solve the problem. This video does a good job of showing that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Given the number of political and ethnic refugees it would appear that asylum doesn't scale for these categories either.
    - tyingq 11y ago
      Well, 3 billion+ desperately poor (< $2 day) vs ~50 million refugees is a still a slightly different scale :)
- lottin 11y ago
  A person who's starving doesn't need asylum, they need humanitarian aid. On the other hand, a person who's a victim of persecution needs protection. Therefore they have completely different needs and for that reason it makes a lot of sense to deal with these two problems separately.
mindo 11y ago
The sooner they gone the better. It's clear that they only here for benefits, not jobs, peace or freedom. Nobody wants to go to live eastern european countries (EU) as a refugee, though they equally peaceful, open-minded, but there are no benefits (or limited), no free housing and no free cars... Btw, everyone suddenly forgot about existing unemployment in Spain (20%, dec data) or Greece(24%, dec data). Other EU countries also struggling, especially in youth employment...
- threeseed 11y ago
  So completely misinformed. The refuees are not leaving Syria/Iraq etc looking for benefits. They are leaving a severe civil war. Yes there are economic migrants moving to Europe as well but they are and will be deported. The reason they aren't staying in the poorer countries is simply that. They are poorer and simply can't handle the refugee intake nor provide basic essential services. You can't blame genuine refugees for wanting to goto countries where they have the best opportunity of leaving a normal life.
  - Khaine 11y ago
    You are misinformed. According to the EU 60% of these people are economic migrants[1]. But lets continue killing Europe with compassion[2]. [1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12123684/Six-in-ten-migrants-not-entitled-to-asylum-says-EU-chief.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12123684... [2]http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that-covers-up-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/ http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that...
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - funthree 11y ago
    Reasons to move are complicated. It's a mixture. When people make life choices they reasons are usually quite multi-faceted. Given this truth, it's important to examine all of the reasons and quantify them accurately without pushing your (anti-European, pro-European, or whatever) political agenda.
eddd 11y ago
Number of immigrants going back to the middle east in this article is funny at best. Author gives few thousands here and there, but he doesn't give overall number - which seems to be around 10 000. And for a 1 000 000 migrants that are in Europe and another 1 000 000 incoming this is nothing - marginal case fitting into statistic error.
jonesb6 11y ago
Regardless to people's own position I think we can all agree that there is a lot of emotion, rhetoric, propaganda even, surrounding the refugee and migrant crises currently going on in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. After speaking to a few colleagues in Europe, it makes me want to take a trip to Europe just to get an un-obfuscated picture of what's really going on. Until then I'm going to try not to form particularly strong opinions on the matter.
- abalashov 11y ago
  I don't know that you're going to gain much insight from a fact-finding trip to Europe in the capacity of a tourist. A lot of the problem is subterranean and lurks in the shadows of European society, away from the outward presentation layer visible to a visitor, and aggregate numbers are best understood by policymakers and experts. When you get off the plane in Europe and amble around, you'll probably find nothing has superficially changed much from the last time you were there--assuming you've been before.
  - jonesb6 11y ago
    I probably misrepresented what my intentions are. I'm not actually going on a research trip, but I do intend to visit Europe soonish, and hope to get a better understanding of what is going mainly by talking to locals etc.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      The problem is that except for a handful of people who have direct contact, the locals are not really any more informed than others. As an European, I knew many people who had strong opinions on the consequences of accepting Syrian refugees, before the first families had even arrived. TV and social media, not personal experience, shape most of the opinions.
      - tluyben2 11y ago
        Yep and those opinions are amplified by right wing warmongering and the under belly short term anti-solutions that the loudest shouters on tv, facebook and youtube etc have.
Spooky23 11y ago
This always happens. Many of my grandparents generation immigrated to the US from Ireland in the 1920s and 30s. Not everyone stayed! 3-4 grand uncles and aunts moved back because they missed home, weren't making it, or missed farming. It's hard to move into a different society, and as order is restored in places like Iraq, i think it is natural to see people return.
abalashov 11y ago
> He arrived in Belgium with this in mind: > “I was expecting them to give me a house, a > good job, so I could have a better life. This is > what I was dreaming about.” I'm not sure who seeded this somewhat pervasive meme in the heads of economic migrants, but it runs diametrically counter to actually-existing reality.
- jules 11y ago
  The human traffickers. They distribute leaflets praising the benefits of each country.
  - iso-8859-1 11y ago
    Link to said leaflet?
    - jules 11y ago
      It's in dutch, but here's a newspaper article about it: http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/article/detail/4108964/2015/07/28/Mensensmokkelaars-prijzen-opvang-Nederland-aan.dhtml http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/article/detail/4108964...
- Yetanfou 11y ago
  Isn't that clear yet? They were told that by the hordes of smugglers who make untold amounts of money ferrying these people into Europe. To lure them in, they tell them of the golden mountains just waiting for them, the girls who can't wait for supposed 'real men' - there are those who claim that women in Sweden demonstrate out on the streets to 'get real men' - and all the other good, free stuff. Once here they should notice that they've been duped, but many don't seem to be able to accept this and go on a rampage to get whatever is is they expected. Which, of course, is not forthcoming - not even in Sweden, even though the level to which this country goes to accommodate so-called 'refugees' is beyond the pale (claim to be 16 and you're set as long as you don't look older than 40...). It is going to take a long time, and cause a lot of trouble for both the affected European countries as well as the migrants who chose to come there to solve this problem. It could break the EU. It will topple governments.
kraut123 11y ago
Warning: To add to the left/right discussion here about the diversification and islamification of Europe... Some mod killed my account for one (ONE) post suggesting that the ethnic German family unit wants to carry on it's own civilization and not be swarmed by foreigners. Random lefties are getting awfully terroristic and fascist. I had that account for 10 years with lots of karma. Be careful what you say. The leftist thought police are really reckless on HN.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- pantalaimon 11y ago
  > islamification of Europe Your choice of words makes your agenda very clear
  - kraut123 11y ago
    So? I don't like the spread of religious insanity? You're polarizing the world. It's extremism. There should be a warning for normal people that HN has radical leftists in seats of authority. You're no better than someone who bans gays from forums. You're no less extreme. Gross, dude. It's a really disgusting planet that you're forcing on everyone.
    - Fluid_Mechanics 11y ago
      I think you'd be more at home on /pol/. Everyone here can see through your silly argument.
      - kraut123 11y ago
        What do you see when you look through it?
jacquesm 11y ago
The problem is never the migrants or refugees. The problem is their luggage and the reaction of the hosts.
BuckRogers 11y ago
Most of us (meaning people that aren't European) would be willing to move anywhere in the EU, at least for a while. I lived and worked in France for some time. My family came from Germany and Switzerland 150 years ago, and my wife's great grandmother came from Spain only 100 years ago (she's Mexican and now also American). It's a really neat thing to be over there and feel that connection to an ancestral homeland that we still have family stories about. Close to where I grew up was a town called Swedesburg, they fly the Swedish flag there to this day. Lots of Germans and Swedes. One would think Europe would change immigration law to encourage people who would naturally have some affinity or ties to the region. But that doesn't seem to be a popular idea. I think my wife and I would be able to integrate anywhere over there, northern or southern Europe, with zeal. We both speak English, Spanish, we can already communicate with Italians as a result of Spanish, and are enthusiastic about cultures and languages. I've lived in the US, France, Mexico and visited ~10 nations including Russia. My wife has visited equally as many and studied in Valencia. I've been to Finland- it has less snow than the part of the US I'm from (though my wife would probably not be thrilled). I've always gotten the feeling Europe prefers its former African and mideast colonies to immigrate north, rather than American hordes with their money and talents (which may be more offputting to the natives than a more desperate immigrant).
- desas 11y ago
  I don't think that there's any evidence that there are hordes of Americans just waiting to move on over. In the UK immigration from former colonies is no longer treated any more preferentially than immigrants from non-EU countries who aren't former colonies (youth mobility visa excepted). After WW2 and Britains labour shortage, full rights of settlement were granted to everyone in the commonwealth, hundreds of thousands came and settled from Africa, Asia and the Caribbean. Why should an american have preference when their family left 5 generations ago over someone who arrived 2 generations ago? Many Africans and Asians come to university in the UK and decide to stay here, not so many Americans do - they have prestigious universities of their own. These people are not desperate and are talented. Britain imports lots of doctors & nurses from commonwealth countries, these people are talented. British Asians contribute something like 6% of UK GDP, despite making up 4% of the population. These people have money.
- 11y ago
poof131 11y ago
In a certain way this article makes me happy. I’m all for immigration as I think it makes countries stronger, but the fact a large number of Iraqis are confidant enough in the stability of their country to return home seems a good sign. Despite all the scenes constantly depicted in the media about walls, car bombs, and Isis, some people would rather just go home to live near their mom.[1] [1] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/iraq-says-security-wall-being-built-around-baghdad/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/iraq-says-security-wall-being-bu...
jackcosgrove 11y ago
Migrants to Europe will get better jobs and lifestyles easily. And the streets of New York are paved with gold. It took my family over a hundred years since immigration to the USA to really integrate such that I don't feel even slightly foreign. And honestly the USA changed us more than we changed the USA. And I agree with that - it's rude to make demands as a guest or newcomer.
- tluyben2 11y ago
  The would maybe do if they had non trivial skills; tech uni degrees etc. Most can do only manual labor and/or have little or no education: we do not have jobs for those skillsets enough for natives let alone immigrants. A friend of mine fled for economic reasons (and more freedom) years ago: he was a surgeon and coder and (secretly) entrepreneur in his country; absolutely no issues getting a job and integrating.
cm2187 11y ago
what strikes me with this migrant crisis is the number of misperceptions on both sides: The migrants are always refered to as war refugees when really only a minority are. The migrants seem to come with the perception that they will be welcomed with open and generous arms where the European public opinion is becoming very visibly hostile to this wave of migrants. And European countries will not have the means and the will to subsidise immigrants on this scale. The European public opinion turned against the migrants after the Paris attack, just because some of the attackers travelled through these immigration channels, but all attackers were either French or Belgium nationals, not migrants. Same thing in Cologne where it seems all the attackers where from Marroco and Algeria, not Iraq or Syria. What I am worried about is the combination of these factors: 1. This is only the start of the migrant crisis. Migrants stopped crossing the mediteranean sea during the winter, but spring is coming, and the Russian backed offensive in Syria will lead to more war refugees. Not only that but when Bashar will likely regain territories from Isis, we will really see many Isis fighters returning home in Europe, ...or seeking asylum from the certain death if caught by Putin/Bashar (and then what do Europeans do?). And on a longer term, the African demographic explosion means millions of africans trying to make their way to Europe every year will be the new normal. Add to that the fact that our societies will increasingly reduce our reliance on oil, which will bankrupt half of the states in the middle east. Saudi Arabia for instance will be a pretty problematic failed state. 2. The threshold of tolerance to migrants seems to have been exceeded pretty much everywhere in Europe. In the UK the EU referundum will largely be about polish immigration and current polls suggest the UK will exit the EU. The far right is rising pretty much everywhere in Europe. And the standard politically correct response of the medias/political class (if you don't want these migrants, you are a racist, end of discussion) will not do anything to contain the far right. 3. With the exception of the UK, pretty much all of Europe is in recession and has high unemployment, and therefore will not be able to absorb this immigration. To make things worse, all the technological change we foresee (AI, robotics, more automation) will only reduce the supply of low-skill jobs in favor of high-skill jobs. The exact opposite of what would be required to absorb this immigration. The whole thing feels like a slow motion train crash, like the accumulation of public debt. It seems pretty obvious to me that one way or another it won't end well.
- tajen 11y ago
manish_gill 11y ago
I don't usually comment on threads like this, but you guys come off as bad as reddit here. Cancerous.
- jokoon 11y ago
  In what way, too liberal? Too much pro migrant, or too much anti migrant? Anyway, calling something plebeian or cancerous doesn't improve the debate... I mean all it's says is that you disagree with what most people believe. That should be either enough to question your own beliefs, or at least to defend your point of view, because all you do here is just a slight rant that is petty at best, or a sign of defeat. Anyway, immigration is a tough political debate, it is controversial since it involves questioning the history of borders. Which is really not an easy thing to solve, even for the most talented politician.
  - neuro_imager 11y ago
    I think he was hoping for the Social Justice Warrior League. Its trendy to demand sympathy without considering the negative ramifications. Take a look at Lebanon and its demise after allowing Palestinian "refugees" to enter its previously sovereign, secular territory for a perfect example of this.
im2w1l 11y ago
The situation in Sweden is becoming really bad. The police have decided to cover up crime at the refugee centers because it is so high. For some age groups in Sweden there are now 125 men per 100 women. Yes the immigration has been enough to tilt the ratio that much. Christian refugees have to flee from refugee centers because of the dangerous situation for them there.
- raverbashing 11y ago
  This is what you get by being extremely naive as a country, also fear of what others think of you
- oo00oo 11y ago
  > Christian refugees have to flee from refugee centers because of the dangerous situation for them there. And if you point this out you'd be called racist and a islamophobe.

189 points by peterkelly 11y ago

Allegedly many of the migrants are economic refugees in addition to or instead of political ones. No doubt if you're thinking Europe is full of high wage jobs and fat benefits for unskilled or low-skilled labor you'll be disappointed.

aikah 11y ago
> Allegedly many of the migrants are economic refugees in addition to or instead of political ones. Whether one can be defined as "economic refugee" is questionable. One is not going to get asylum anywhere in Europe because one is fleeing from "unemployment". The expression makes little sense. These are economical migrants, who came to Europe illegally for the most, especially those who can afford to go back home because Germany didn't give them the job, the house and the welfare they thought they were entitled to.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  > One is not going to get asylum anywhere in Europe because one is fleeing from "unemployment". Quite true, asylum is not granted, but it is still very difficult to send back those whose asylum application is rejected. Often it is not even clear where to send people "back" because they have no papers (human traffickers instruct them to destroy or hide passports) and no one can really tell where they came from. The applicants have a right to appeal the decision; process takes years, then people make a new residence permit application based on "changed circumstances" (for instance, starting a family or having studied something) and more time passes. This will be particularly flammable in cases where even hardened criminals cannot be deported because now that they are criminals, their home country (if known) definitely won't take them back. And then the applicants may simply leave one country and emerge in another one as new applicants (unless biometric tracking is really started and made working). I predict volatile times and violence for Europe.
  - Khaine 11y ago
    And this is why the Australian Government uses offshore processing. These people don't get to come to Australia. This has significantly deterred economic migrants from entering via boat. Leftists and Europeans derided it as a violation of human rights. Now I be many are secretly wishing they had implemented it.
    - kraut123 11y ago
      The left's intolerance veers toward totalitarianism.
    - a_bonobo 11y ago
      > This has significantly deterred economic migrants from entering via boat. This is hard to say - under "Operation Sovereign Borders" all boat arrivals are military secrets, so there's not much data on arrivals except what the government announces. The Australian navy has literally towed back boats in defiance of international laws (Wikipedia: "In August 2015, minister Dutton stated that since December 2013, 633 people on 20 vessels have been subject to turnback operations, including a boat from Vietnam in July), so at least on that front the boats haven't been quite stopped (they just don't go all the way any more). And as for the violation of human rights: you have a right to seek asylum. You're conveniently forgetting that people who have been placed on Nauru by the Australian government have been murdered and raped, completely unnecessary. Quote Wikipedia again: >In 2015, several staff members from the detention centre wrote an open letter claiming that multiple instances of sexual abuse against women and children had occurred.[6] The letter claimed that the Australian government had been aware of these abuses for over 18 months.[7] This letter added weight to the Moss review which found it possible that "guards had traded marijuana for sexual favours with asylum seeker children".[8] [9][10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Regional_Processing_Centre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Regional_Processing_Cent... We can't really judge the situation there because journalists or international observers are not allowed in.
      - Khaine 11y ago
        > This is hard to say We do know that IMAs have significantly decreased. As the department reports on the numbers in detention[1] (See figure 1) The ABC also kept a log of all reports[2] 1) http://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/statistics/immigration-detention-statistics-30-dec-2015.pdf http://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/st... 2) http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/log-of-boat-arrivals-and-other-asylum-seeker-incidents/5014496 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/log-of-boat-arrivals-a...
rimantas 11y ago
Well there are stories that they were told by trafficers that they will get a house, a job, and a car upon arrival.
- ktRolster 11y ago
  Yeah, that's kind of what the guy in the article thought, quote: > He arrived in Belgium with this in mind: > “I was expecting them to give me a house, > a good job, so I could have a better life. > This is what I was dreaming about.”
shitgoose 11y ago
'Europe is full of high wage jobs and fat benefits for unskilled or low-skilled labor' labor? you mean - like, work, right? europe is full of welfares and free housings and subsidies. no migrant is going to labour here, just accept what is rightfully theirs. labour is for local suckers.
- xufi 11y ago
  The welfare and the free housing have caught up with some who have joined the Euro (Greece/Portugal) and look where they are now.
- badlogic 11y ago
  Where in Europe can you find free housing? Are you talking about refugee centers? Monthly payments to refugees which are immediately send to respective landlords?
  - shitgoose 11y ago
    all of the above. the bottom line - they are not paying for it from their pocket.

k-mcgrady 11y ago

Interesting article. I'm very pro-Europe taking in refugees. It seems however that the guy in this article moved because he couldn't get a job in his own country and thought he would instantly get one here - not a chance when a lot of Europeans are still struggling to find work because of the economy. It also sounds like he was pretty close-minded in regards to integrating into a new culture/diet/environment. Unless the article isn't telling us something or I misread this guy wasn't really a migrant - this was a man who wanted to move to a new country and didn't like it very much but he took the illegal route in instead of applying for a visa. He wasn't forced out of his home, his life wasn't at risk etc. Like I said, I think we should be helping refugees in every way we can but it really seems like this guy isn't a refugee.

rimantas 11y ago
> this guy wasn't really a migrant He was migrant by defintion. Not a refugee though. > he was pretty close-minded in regards to integrating into a new > culture/diet/environment I wonder, what is the percentage of those hundreds of thousands who do not have the same mindset. Alas, the thinking of those pro-Europet-taking-in-refugees is somewhere along the lines: 1. Take in all the refugess 2. ... 3. Integration done. There is no magic for the step 2. And there is the big misundrestanding how deep the difference between the cultures is. Also, the not undrestanding that Islam is not just religion, is the way of life—and the way not very much in agreement with the western one. Especially when the western way is considered subpar and the wrong one. Good luck in thinking that a few lecutres on European values will change all that.
- seivan 11y ago
  Lee Kuan Yew has had the same experience with the close mindedness of certain cultures and being hard to integrate. My parents noticed the same with people from the same countries as them. Even I noticed early on in school how hard it was for teachers to mention certain progressive ideas without pissing off a bunch guys in my class. I never gave it a second thought until recently. It's an uphill battle for any country that relies on sweeping issues under the rug instead of managing them up front.

ap3 11y ago

I guess this guy is not a refugee in the sense that things are ok for him to go back to family

drinchev 11y ago

This article is obviously about a person, that is an illegal migrant, not a refugee. > “I felt like I couldn’t live in an open society,” > said Aqeed Hassan, 26, who plays the clarinet and, > back in Baghdad after going to Finland, is trying > to get a job in a military band. > “My wife has her head covered, and I didn’t feel like they liked Arabs.” The whole debate with migration is that IMHO the real refugees need to visit psychologists, when they arrive here. They've suffered war, laws that declare gender-inequality ( soft words for what those laws actually are, but anyway ), homo-phobic state-politics, etc. Those are all things that western world fight ages to make it right ( yes, including war ) and people that have lived in different society can't understand by just "living" there. I'm really happy to know people from Syria, Pakistan, Taiwan & Japan. It's so cool when we all try to understand more about the way we live our every-day life , but on the other hand all of us will feel offended if forced to change it. No matter what "When in Rome, do as the Romans do ...", if you can't just leave.

cgio 11y ago
Romans, and Greeks especially under Alexander, changed their lifestyles significantly to accommodate influence from subjects of their conquests. It comes with the imperium package.
- izacus 11y ago
  Good job on nitpicking on a language phrase instead of answering the content of the post :/
  - cgio 11y ago
    Which part was not an answer to the Content of the parent?
- hetman 11y ago
  What imperium does Finland control exactly?
  - 11y ago

tdkl 11y ago

> “They were surprised,” he said. “But I told them I’d rather die in my country than die outside in a strange country.” Well since most of the so called Syrian (and many other countries too) "refugees" are healthy young men, I really don't know what are they doing in EU (expecting wellfare money probably) instead of fighting for their own country for better tomorrow (what all young men did in their age around the world since dawn of time). Europe as it is today didn't came for free.

jahnu 11y ago
> (expecting wellfare money probably) instead of fighting for their own country for better tomorrow Hacker News: Taking armchair coaching to a whole new level. Sometimes I despair at the lack of empathy that is possible.
- tdkl 11y ago
  I'll add armchair coaching from someone in a small EU country which still has its language because his both grandfathers didn't bail and ran away, for which I'm forever grateful of the responsibility they took.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - wfn 11y ago
    Whatever one's musings on the status and the notion of ethnic states etc., I don't think the situation is comparable. In my (our?) case (Baltic states), there was (more of) a concrete "bad Other", whereas in Syria a proxy war (or an array thereof) is taking place. One can perceive it as multiple groups of interest fighting, with the backing of multiple actors (and the background struggle of the extent of those actors and their backing is what might determine the outcome, if any). It is easier to grok a meaningful armed struggle (which one may partake in, hypothetically) - after all, it is tangible and concrete, and there's always a bad side (isn't there), etc.; but in the completely messed up state of affairs that people in Syria find themselves in, one can't but deduce that they are in a war zone with no certain optimal equilibrium which one can attempt to bring the future to. And that is really a different picture altogether, I would think.

danieltillett 11y ago

I personally have never understood the logical difference between a political refugee and an economic one. It is OK to claim asylum because you have odious political views, but not because you children are starving.

maxerickson 11y ago
It doesn't explain why they defined it so, but modern usage can at least be coming from the definition given in the Geneva Convention, which doesn't mention poverty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_relating_to_the_Sta... I guess in 1950 the lines between rich and poor countries were even starker, with the rich ones not really having the capability to deal with all the poor that would want to claim economic asylum.
tyingq 11y ago
It may just be that asylum for purely economic reasons doesn't scale in a way that would solve the problem. This video does a good job of showing that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Given the number of political and ethnic refugees it would appear that asylum doesn't scale for these categories either.
  - tyingq 11y ago
    Well, 3 billion+ desperately poor (< $2 day) vs ~50 million refugees is a still a slightly different scale :)
lottin 11y ago
A person who's starving doesn't need asylum, they need humanitarian aid. On the other hand, a person who's a victim of persecution needs protection. Therefore they have completely different needs and for that reason it makes a lot of sense to deal with these two problems separately.

mindo 11y ago

The sooner they gone the better. It's clear that they only here for benefits, not jobs, peace or freedom. Nobody wants to go to live eastern european countries (EU) as a refugee, though they equally peaceful, open-minded, but there are no benefits (or limited), no free housing and no free cars... Btw, everyone suddenly forgot about existing unemployment in Spain (20%, dec data) or Greece(24%, dec data). Other EU countries also struggling, especially in youth employment...

threeseed 11y ago
So completely misinformed. The refuees are not leaving Syria/Iraq etc looking for benefits. They are leaving a severe civil war. Yes there are economic migrants moving to Europe as well but they are and will be deported. The reason they aren't staying in the poorer countries is simply that. They are poorer and simply can't handle the refugee intake nor provide basic essential services. You can't blame genuine refugees for wanting to goto countries where they have the best opportunity of leaving a normal life.
- Khaine 11y ago
  You are misinformed. According to the EU 60% of these people are economic migrants[1]. But lets continue killing Europe with compassion[2]. [1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12123684/Six-in-ten-migrants-not-entitled-to-asylum-says-EU-chief.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12123684... [2]http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that-covers-up-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/ http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that...
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- funthree 11y ago
  Reasons to move are complicated. It's a mixture. When people make life choices they reasons are usually quite multi-faceted. Given this truth, it's important to examine all of the reasons and quantify them accurately without pushing your (anti-European, pro-European, or whatever) political agenda.

eddd 11y ago

Number of immigrants going back to the middle east in this article is funny at best. Author gives few thousands here and there, but he doesn't give overall number - which seems to be around 10 000. And for a 1 000 000 migrants that are in Europe and another 1 000 000 incoming this is nothing - marginal case fitting into statistic error.

jonesb6 11y ago

Regardless to people's own position I think we can all agree that there is a lot of emotion, rhetoric, propaganda even, surrounding the refugee and migrant crises currently going on in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. After speaking to a few colleagues in Europe, it makes me want to take a trip to Europe just to get an un-obfuscated picture of what's really going on. Until then I'm going to try not to form particularly strong opinions on the matter.

abalashov 11y ago
I don't know that you're going to gain much insight from a fact-finding trip to Europe in the capacity of a tourist. A lot of the problem is subterranean and lurks in the shadows of European society, away from the outward presentation layer visible to a visitor, and aggregate numbers are best understood by policymakers and experts. When you get off the plane in Europe and amble around, you'll probably find nothing has superficially changed much from the last time you were there--assuming you've been before.
- jonesb6 11y ago
  I probably misrepresented what my intentions are. I'm not actually going on a research trip, but I do intend to visit Europe soonish, and hope to get a better understanding of what is going mainly by talking to locals etc.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    The problem is that except for a handful of people who have direct contact, the locals are not really any more informed than others. As an European, I knew many people who had strong opinions on the consequences of accepting Syrian refugees, before the first families had even arrived. TV and social media, not personal experience, shape most of the opinions.
    - tluyben2 11y ago
      Yep and those opinions are amplified by right wing warmongering and the under belly short term anti-solutions that the loudest shouters on tv, facebook and youtube etc have.

Spooky23 11y ago

This always happens. Many of my grandparents generation immigrated to the US from Ireland in the 1920s and 30s. Not everyone stayed! 3-4 grand uncles and aunts moved back because they missed home, weren't making it, or missed farming. It's hard to move into a different society, and as order is restored in places like Iraq, i think it is natural to see people return.

abalashov 11y ago

> He arrived in Belgium with this in mind: > “I was expecting them to give me a house, a > good job, so I could have a better life. This is > what I was dreaming about.” I'm not sure who seeded this somewhat pervasive meme in the heads of economic migrants, but it runs diametrically counter to actually-existing reality.

jules 11y ago
The human traffickers. They distribute leaflets praising the benefits of each country.
- iso-8859-1 11y ago
  Link to said leaflet?
  - jules 11y ago
    It's in dutch, but here's a newspaper article about it: http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/article/detail/4108964/2015/07/28/Mensensmokkelaars-prijzen-opvang-Nederland-aan.dhtml http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/article/detail/4108964...
Yetanfou 11y ago
Isn't that clear yet? They were told that by the hordes of smugglers who make untold amounts of money ferrying these people into Europe. To lure them in, they tell them of the golden mountains just waiting for them, the girls who can't wait for supposed 'real men' - there are those who claim that women in Sweden demonstrate out on the streets to 'get real men' - and all the other good, free stuff. Once here they should notice that they've been duped, but many don't seem to be able to accept this and go on a rampage to get whatever is is they expected. Which, of course, is not forthcoming - not even in Sweden, even though the level to which this country goes to accommodate so-called 'refugees' is beyond the pale (claim to be 16 and you're set as long as you don't look older than 40...). It is going to take a long time, and cause a lot of trouble for both the affected European countries as well as the migrants who chose to come there to solve this problem. It could break the EU. It will topple governments.

kraut123 11y ago

Warning: To add to the left/right discussion here about the diversification and islamification of Europe... Some mod killed my account for one (ONE) post suggesting that the ethnic German family unit wants to carry on it's own civilization and not be swarmed by foreigners. Random lefties are getting awfully terroristic and fascist. I had that account for 10 years with lots of karma. Be careful what you say. The leftist thought police are really reckless on HN.

deleted 11y ago
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pantalaimon 11y ago
> islamification of Europe Your choice of words makes your agenda very clear
- kraut123 11y ago
  So? I don't like the spread of religious insanity? You're polarizing the world. It's extremism. There should be a warning for normal people that HN has radical leftists in seats of authority. You're no better than someone who bans gays from forums. You're no less extreme. Gross, dude. It's a really disgusting planet that you're forcing on everyone.
  - Fluid_Mechanics 11y ago
    I think you'd be more at home on /pol/. Everyone here can see through your silly argument.
    - kraut123 11y ago
      What do you see when you look through it?

jacquesm 11y ago

The problem is never the migrants or refugees. The problem is their luggage and the reaction of the hosts.

BuckRogers 11y ago

Most of us (meaning people that aren't European) would be willing to move anywhere in the EU, at least for a while. I lived and worked in France for some time. My family came from Germany and Switzerland 150 years ago, and my wife's great grandmother came from Spain only 100 years ago (she's Mexican and now also American). It's a really neat thing to be over there and feel that connection to an ancestral homeland that we still have family stories about. Close to where I grew up was a town called Swedesburg, they fly the Swedish flag there to this day. Lots of Germans and Swedes. One would think Europe would change immigration law to encourage people who would naturally have some affinity or ties to the region. But that doesn't seem to be a popular idea. I think my wife and I would be able to integrate anywhere over there, northern or southern Europe, with zeal. We both speak English, Spanish, we can already communicate with Italians as a result of Spanish, and are enthusiastic about cultures and languages. I've lived in the US, France, Mexico and visited ~10 nations including Russia. My wife has visited equally as many and studied in Valencia. I've been to Finland- it has less snow than the part of the US I'm from (though my wife would probably not be thrilled). I've always gotten the feeling Europe prefers its former African and mideast colonies to immigrate north, rather than American hordes with their money and talents (which may be more offputting to the natives than a more desperate immigrant).

desas 11y ago
I don't think that there's any evidence that there are hordes of Americans just waiting to move on over. In the UK immigration from former colonies is no longer treated any more preferentially than immigrants from non-EU countries who aren't former colonies (youth mobility visa excepted). After WW2 and Britains labour shortage, full rights of settlement were granted to everyone in the commonwealth, hundreds of thousands came and settled from Africa, Asia and the Caribbean. Why should an american have preference when their family left 5 generations ago over someone who arrived 2 generations ago? Many Africans and Asians come to university in the UK and decide to stay here, not so many Americans do - they have prestigious universities of their own. These people are not desperate and are talented. Britain imports lots of doctors & nurses from commonwealth countries, these people are talented. British Asians contribute something like 6% of UK GDP, despite making up 4% of the population. These people have money.
11y ago

poof131 11y ago

In a certain way this article makes me happy. I’m all for immigration as I think it makes countries stronger, but the fact a large number of Iraqis are confidant enough in the stability of their country to return home seems a good sign. Despite all the scenes constantly depicted in the media about walls, car bombs, and Isis, some people would rather just go home to live near their mom.[1] [1] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/iraq-says-security-wall-being-built-around-baghdad/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/iraq-says-security-wall-being-bu...

jackcosgrove 11y ago

Migrants to Europe will get better jobs and lifestyles easily. And the streets of New York are paved with gold. It took my family over a hundred years since immigration to the USA to really integrate such that I don't feel even slightly foreign. And honestly the USA changed us more than we changed the USA. And I agree with that - it's rude to make demands as a guest or newcomer.

tluyben2 11y ago
The would maybe do if they had non trivial skills; tech uni degrees etc. Most can do only manual labor and/or have little or no education: we do not have jobs for those skillsets enough for natives let alone immigrants. A friend of mine fled for economic reasons (and more freedom) years ago: he was a surgeon and coder and (secretly) entrepreneur in his country; absolutely no issues getting a job and integrating.

cm2187 11y ago

what strikes me with this migrant crisis is the number of misperceptions on both sides: The migrants are always refered to as war refugees when really only a minority are. The migrants seem to come with the perception that they will be welcomed with open and generous arms where the European public opinion is becoming very visibly hostile to this wave of migrants. And European countries will not have the means and the will to subsidise immigrants on this scale. The European public opinion turned against the migrants after the Paris attack, just because some of the attackers travelled through these immigration channels, but all attackers were either French or Belgium nationals, not migrants. Same thing in Cologne where it seems all the attackers where from Marroco and Algeria, not Iraq or Syria. What I am worried about is the combination of these factors: 1. This is only the start of the migrant crisis. Migrants stopped crossing the mediteranean sea during the winter, but spring is coming, and the Russian backed offensive in Syria will lead to more war refugees. Not only that but when Bashar will likely regain territories from Isis, we will really see many Isis fighters returning home in Europe, ...or seeking asylum from the certain death if caught by Putin/Bashar (and then what do Europeans do?). And on a longer term, the African demographic explosion means millions of africans trying to make their way to Europe every year will be the new normal. Add to that the fact that our societies will increasingly reduce our reliance on oil, which will bankrupt half of the states in the middle east. Saudi Arabia for instance will be a pretty problematic failed state. 2. The threshold of tolerance to migrants seems to have been exceeded pretty much everywhere in Europe. In the UK the EU referundum will largely be about polish immigration and current polls suggest the UK will exit the EU. The far right is rising pretty much everywhere in Europe. And the standard politically correct response of the medias/political class (if you don't want these migrants, you are a racist, end of discussion) will not do anything to contain the far right. 3. With the exception of the UK, pretty much all of Europe is in recession and has high unemployment, and therefore will not be able to absorb this immigration. To make things worse, all the technological change we foresee (AI, robotics, more automation) will only reduce the supply of low-skill jobs in favor of high-skill jobs. The exact opposite of what would be required to absorb this immigration. The whole thing feels like a slow motion train crash, like the accumulation of public debt. It seems pretty obvious to me that one way or another it won't end well.

tajen 11y ago

manish_gill 11y ago

I don't usually comment on threads like this, but you guys come off as bad as reddit here. Cancerous.

jokoon 11y ago
In what way, too liberal? Too much pro migrant, or too much anti migrant? Anyway, calling something plebeian or cancerous doesn't improve the debate... I mean all it's says is that you disagree with what most people believe. That should be either enough to question your own beliefs, or at least to defend your point of view, because all you do here is just a slight rant that is petty at best, or a sign of defeat. Anyway, immigration is a tough political debate, it is controversial since it involves questioning the history of borders. Which is really not an easy thing to solve, even for the most talented politician.
- neuro_imager 11y ago
  I think he was hoping for the Social Justice Warrior League. Its trendy to demand sympathy without considering the negative ramifications. Take a look at Lebanon and its demise after allowing Palestinian "refugees" to enter its previously sovereign, secular territory for a perfect example of this.

im2w1l 11y ago

The situation in Sweden is becoming really bad. The police have decided to cover up crime at the refugee centers because it is so high. For some age groups in Sweden there are now 125 men per 100 women. Yes the immigration has been enough to tilt the ratio that much. Christian refugees have to flee from refugee centers because of the dangerous situation for them there.

raverbashing 11y ago
This is what you get by being extremely naive as a country, also fear of what others think of you
oo00oo 11y ago
> Christian refugees have to flee from refugee centers because of the dangerous situation for them there. And if you point this out you'd be called racist and a islamophobe.