9 ms·

Aereo Founder Is Back with New High-Speed Wireless Service

68 points by e15ctr0n 11y ago

crapolasplatter 11y ago
Just the thought of Comcast having competition at high speeds brings a smile to my face. I so look forward to the day that I can tell comcast to F-off for good. Comcast better get off there gravy train throne and stop pissing off their customers with there bandwidth rape you rates since they don't like the term data-cap. Google Fiber , and wirelss tech as this company are coming for you. On the other side Amazon prime and netflix are coming after your content provider business as they are creating there own.
ceocoder 11y ago
Non paywalled google referer version - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiO9ISQqsvKAhXEtIMKHUQsA_gQqQIIHjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Faereo-founder-is-back-with-new-high-speed-wireless-service-1453934995&usg=AFQjCNGleGpRyMM7ABGXdhZ4NHjIvXgrvQ https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
- GigabyteCoin 11y ago
  I'm still seeing "To Read the Full Story, Subscribe or Sign In" when I click on that link, or when I click on the web link at the top of this page as well... strange. Deleted cookies and all that jazz, too...
  - teh_klev 11y ago
    Always worth checking archive.is: https://archive.is/838Vx https://archive.is/838Vx
- wernercd 11y ago
  Likewise... F U WSJ. Your articles aren't are THAT special.
  - mintplant 11y ago
    It's this or ads, and everyone's blocking the latter.
    - wernercd 11y ago
      Or it's getting roughly the same stories elsewhere: https://www.google.com/search?q=Aero+founder&gws_rd=ssl#tbm=nws https://www.google.com/search?q=Aero+founder&gws_rd=ssl#tbm=... Tons of copy cat stores without the paywall. Ads are a security risk, obtrusive, annoying, data hog, etc, etc, etc... There is a reason more and more and MORE people are demanding ad blocking. People have had online news without borders for too long for this garbage to work.
pilom 11y ago
This sounds so much like WiMax and that didn't succeed. Why would I believe this will?
- crapolasplatter 11y ago
  Yeah I thought the same thing. However this has the founder of Aereo pushing it who made a pretty successful implementation using that technology which had to overcome some of the same issues: Access, visibility, and interference. Also comcast with other ISP-Content providers also helped in shutting down his company, so he might have some bridges to burn to bring ISP down.
- tw04 11y ago
  Because Wimax tried to take on the cellphone industry without actually getting any of them onboard besides sprint. If they had focused on broadband to the home instead they may have had a different fate. This also sounds much, much faster.
  - joezydeco 11y ago
    Clearwire (aka Clear) tried focusing on home ISP service. They folded last year. I was a user for about two years and, personally, the bandwidth just wasn't enough.
    - kyllo 11y ago
      Clear was just fine for web browsing but way too slow for streaming video. That was what did it in.
      - joezydeco 11y ago
        I thought LTE did it in.
pilom 11y ago
This sounds so much like WiMax and that didn't succeed. Why would I believe this will?
trhway 11y ago
millimeter waves? the skin-burning police crowd control device is 95GHz, ie. 3.2mm wavelength. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System#Effects
deftnerd 11y ago
The news is light on the tech side of things, but I wonder if their experience building their Aereo antenna infrastructure might have a place in this. From the video, it appears that their goal is to have a few transmission towers in a region and then neighborhood or block-level repeaters that receive the signal and rebroadcast it. So, fixed millimeter microwave wireless from the repeaters to the main gateway, but what will they use from the repeater to the customer? Some WISP's are starting to roll out 4G hotspots over unlicensed frequencies. That would work in this situation and their experience with micro-antennas could let them cram several antennas into their router to connect to as many of the relays as possible to increase bandwidth and resilience.
- GabrielF00 11y ago
  Neighborhood or block-level repeaters are a big challenge. Landlords can be very difficult to reach, and very risk averse. Cell carriers generally solve this problem by paying building owners tens of thousands of dollars a year.
- AjithAntony 11y ago
  > experience building their Aereo antenna infrastructure I thought the extent of their antenna technology was just a board with a bunch of token antenna element that gave the illusion that each subscriber was using a dedicated antenna.
  - edbrown23 11y ago
    I worked at Aereo back when it closed down, I can assure you the individual antennas were real, and were really used to tune and stream your videos.
  - acjohnson55 11y ago
    Any source for that? It's not like it's crazy hard to make a small digital antenna, so I'm not sure why it would be in doubt that they did so.
    - 11y ago
ricardobeat 11y ago
We've had radio equipment for last-mile connections for a while, it's used everywhere. Doing it at 1gbps (vs the current 100/300/450mbps) won't reduce the hurdles of needing line of sight, weather and obstacle sensitivity, degradation due to exposure, antenna positioning and leasing space, plus all the required maintenance. If this company is going for a tech solution, why not push for 5G which solves everything at once?
- ascagnel_ 11y ago
  Because they don't have the licensed spectrum they'd need. My understanding is the tech they've chosen runs on unlicensed spectrum, trading political problems for technical problems.
jwuphysics 11y ago
I can't get through the payway, but based on The Verge (http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/27/10841600/starry-wireless-gigabit-internet-project-from-aereo-founder http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/27/10841600/starry-wireless-g...) story and comments that I've seen here, I think I'm going to have to be pessimistic on this one. As a millimeter to radio wavelength astronomer, I wish them luck transmitting signals through any sort of inclement weather or in locations of high humidity.
sathackr 11y ago
I see some major issues here. 1. Weather - The higher the frequency, the more things like rain/fog/sleet/snow start to affect you. For example, 24ghz in Florida is useless for more than about 1 mile, unless you're okay with it going out in the rain. In Arizona, it's great for up to 5 miles. 39ghz will be more limited than this. 2. Spectrum - The most efficient radios I know of achieve about 10bps/hz -- that means you need 100mhz of spectrum for 1gb/s. That's total speed, a 900x100 or a 500x500 connection. I don't know the details of what technology is being used or planned here but it's going to be at least half of that for a practical multi-point system, even worse since these will be user-installed where someone will settle on a weak signal that burns more spectrum for the same speed. My guess is around 2bps/hz, but I'll stick with 5 for now, giving the benefit of the doubt. Assuming the entire 39ghz(39000mhz to 39999mhz) band is available for use, at a likely best-case scenario of 5bps/hz that's about 5gb/s of traffic for any given signal area. If you're selling 1gb connections, even at a 50 to 1 oversubscription rate, that's only 250 connections. That will barely put a dent in an urban environment with 100,000+ people. 3. Spectrum re-use. Cell companies are able to re-use the spectrum they have because they can control with a good degree of accuracy where their signal goes. At 39ghz, this signal is going to reflect off anything and everything, making spectrum planning very difficult. You might need two access points on either side of a large building for coverage, but thanks to reflections, you won't be able to re-use any of that spectrum because the signal will be bouncing all over. You have very little control over where your signal goes in an urban environment. A truck driving down the road may send your signal 2 miles in the direction you don't want it to go. 4. Bandwidth -- How many rooftops have 10+gb/s of internet available? Probably not many unless you happen to get lucky and have a carrier hotel in the same place you need signal. I'm a feet-on-the-ground(or sometimes tower) guy, so these are napkin numbers. I've seen a couple of real wireless engineers around here, maybe one of them can pitch in with some more concrete numbers. When Aereo first started, it was a sound idea with very little in the way on the technical side for implementation. As we know, Aereo's problems weren't technical. This project has many apparent technical issues, and probably some legal ones as well. I don't want to unnecessarily poo-poo his project. If it works I will be glad -- it will be another tool I can use to do my job -- but it seems like he's promising rainbows and unicorns right now, like so many other investor-bait news articles I read. Source: 20 years of experience working on/for/by/with many wireless internet providers and cell tower companies.

68 points by e15ctr0n 11y ago

Just the thought of Comcast having competition at high speeds brings a smile to my face. I so look forward to the day that I can tell comcast to F-off for good. Comcast better get off there gravy train throne and stop pissing off their customers with there bandwidth rape you rates since they don't like the term data-cap. Google Fiber , and wirelss tech as this company are coming for you. On the other side Amazon prime and netflix are coming after your content provider business as they are creating there own.

ceocoder 11y ago

Non paywalled google referer version - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiO9ISQqsvKAhXEtIMKHUQsA_gQqQIIHjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Faereo-founder-is-back-with-new-high-speed-wireless-service-1453934995&usg=AFQjCNGleGpRyMM7ABGXdhZ4NHjIvXgrvQ https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

GigabyteCoin 11y ago
I'm still seeing "To Read the Full Story, Subscribe or Sign In" when I click on that link, or when I click on the web link at the top of this page as well... strange. Deleted cookies and all that jazz, too...
- teh_klev 11y ago
  Always worth checking archive.is: https://archive.is/838Vx https://archive.is/838Vx
wernercd 11y ago
Likewise... F U WSJ. Your articles aren't are THAT special.
- mintplant 11y ago
  It's this or ads, and everyone's blocking the latter.
  - wernercd 11y ago
    Or it's getting roughly the same stories elsewhere: https://www.google.com/search?q=Aero+founder&gws_rd=ssl#tbm=nws https://www.google.com/search?q=Aero+founder&gws_rd=ssl#tbm=... Tons of copy cat stores without the paywall. Ads are a security risk, obtrusive, annoying, data hog, etc, etc, etc... There is a reason more and more and MORE people are demanding ad blocking. People have had online news without borders for too long for this garbage to work.

pilom 11y ago

This sounds so much like WiMax and that didn't succeed. Why would I believe this will?

crapolasplatter 11y ago
Yeah I thought the same thing. However this has the founder of Aereo pushing it who made a pretty successful implementation using that technology which had to overcome some of the same issues: Access, visibility, and interference. Also comcast with other ISP-Content providers also helped in shutting down his company, so he might have some bridges to burn to bring ISP down.
tw04 11y ago
Because Wimax tried to take on the cellphone industry without actually getting any of them onboard besides sprint. If they had focused on broadband to the home instead they may have had a different fate. This also sounds much, much faster.
- joezydeco 11y ago
  Clearwire (aka Clear) tried focusing on home ISP service. They folded last year. I was a user for about two years and, personally, the bandwidth just wasn't enough.
  - kyllo 11y ago
    Clear was just fine for web browsing but way too slow for streaming video. That was what did it in.
    - joezydeco 11y ago
      I thought LTE did it in.

pilom 11y ago

This sounds so much like WiMax and that didn't succeed. Why would I believe this will?

trhway 11y ago

millimeter waves? the skin-burning police crowd control device is 95GHz, ie. 3.2mm wavelength. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System#Effects

deftnerd 11y ago

The news is light on the tech side of things, but I wonder if their experience building their Aereo antenna infrastructure might have a place in this. From the video, it appears that their goal is to have a few transmission towers in a region and then neighborhood or block-level repeaters that receive the signal and rebroadcast it. So, fixed millimeter microwave wireless from the repeaters to the main gateway, but what will they use from the repeater to the customer? Some WISP's are starting to roll out 4G hotspots over unlicensed frequencies. That would work in this situation and their experience with micro-antennas could let them cram several antennas into their router to connect to as many of the relays as possible to increase bandwidth and resilience.

GabrielF00 11y ago
Neighborhood or block-level repeaters are a big challenge. Landlords can be very difficult to reach, and very risk averse. Cell carriers generally solve this problem by paying building owners tens of thousands of dollars a year.
AjithAntony 11y ago
> experience building their Aereo antenna infrastructure I thought the extent of their antenna technology was just a board with a bunch of token antenna element that gave the illusion that each subscriber was using a dedicated antenna.
- edbrown23 11y ago
  I worked at Aereo back when it closed down, I can assure you the individual antennas were real, and were really used to tune and stream your videos.
- acjohnson55 11y ago
  Any source for that? It's not like it's crazy hard to make a small digital antenna, so I'm not sure why it would be in doubt that they did so.
  - 11y ago

ricardobeat 11y ago

We've had radio equipment for last-mile connections for a while, it's used everywhere. Doing it at 1gbps (vs the current 100/300/450mbps) won't reduce the hurdles of needing line of sight, weather and obstacle sensitivity, degradation due to exposure, antenna positioning and leasing space, plus all the required maintenance. If this company is going for a tech solution, why not push for 5G which solves everything at once?

ascagnel_ 11y ago
Because they don't have the licensed spectrum they'd need. My understanding is the tech they've chosen runs on unlicensed spectrum, trading political problems for technical problems.

jwuphysics 11y ago

I can't get through the payway, but based on The Verge (http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/27/10841600/starry-wireless-gigabit-internet-project-from-aereo-founder http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/27/10841600/starry-wireless-g...) story and comments that I've seen here, I think I'm going to have to be pessimistic on this one. As a millimeter to radio wavelength astronomer, I wish them luck transmitting signals through any sort of inclement weather or in locations of high humidity.

sathackr 11y ago

I see some major issues here. 1. Weather - The higher the frequency, the more things like rain/fog/sleet/snow start to affect you. For example, 24ghz in Florida is useless for more than about 1 mile, unless you're okay with it going out in the rain. In Arizona, it's great for up to 5 miles. 39ghz will be more limited than this. 2. Spectrum - The most efficient radios I know of achieve about 10bps/hz -- that means you need 100mhz of spectrum for 1gb/s. That's total speed, a 900x100 or a 500x500 connection. I don't know the details of what technology is being used or planned here but it's going to be at least half of that for a practical multi-point system, even worse since these will be user-installed where someone will settle on a weak signal that burns more spectrum for the same speed. My guess is around 2bps/hz, but I'll stick with 5 for now, giving the benefit of the doubt. Assuming the entire 39ghz(39000mhz to 39999mhz) band is available for use, at a likely best-case scenario of 5bps/hz that's about 5gb/s of traffic for any given signal area. If you're selling 1gb connections, even at a 50 to 1 oversubscription rate, that's only 250 connections. That will barely put a dent in an urban environment with 100,000+ people. 3. Spectrum re-use. Cell companies are able to re-use the spectrum they have because they can control with a good degree of accuracy where their signal goes. At 39ghz, this signal is going to reflect off anything and everything, making spectrum planning very difficult. You might need two access points on either side of a large building for coverage, but thanks to reflections, you won't be able to re-use any of that spectrum because the signal will be bouncing all over. You have very little control over where your signal goes in an urban environment. A truck driving down the road may send your signal 2 miles in the direction you don't want it to go. 4. Bandwidth -- How many rooftops have 10+gb/s of internet available? Probably not many unless you happen to get lucky and have a carrier hotel in the same place you need signal. I'm a feet-on-the-ground(or sometimes tower) guy, so these are napkin numbers. I've seen a couple of real wireless engineers around here, maybe one of them can pitch in with some more concrete numbers. When Aereo first started, it was a sound idea with very little in the way on the technical side for implementation. As we know, Aereo's problems weren't technical. This project has many apparent technical issues, and probably some legal ones as well. I don't want to unnecessarily poo-poo his project. If it works I will be glad -- it will be another tool I can use to do my job -- but it seems like he's promising rainbows and unicorns right now, like so many other investor-bait news articles I read. Source: 20 years of experience working on/for/by/with many wireless internet providers and cell tower companies.