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T-Shirts Unravelled
- brad0 11y agoBrilliant post. This explains exactly why some T shirts I buy fit great in the chest after buying and are shorter and wider after one wash.
- carlob 11y agoDoesn't work on Safari with Ghostery and uBlock. No text loads, but the plots do.
- themartorana 11y agoI'm not sure this is a complaint worth worrying about if I'm them...
- carlob 11y agoFWIW you personal website linked from your profile doesn't either: Fatal error: Namespace declaration statement has to be the very first statement in the script in /home/thebarproject/webapps/codecon_wp/wp-content/plugins/zencache/zencache.inc.php on line 13
- jlgaddis 11y agoHe probably doesn't care either.
- scintill76 11y agoTo be fair, that's a server-side error that will probably always occur (so the site is effectively permanently down), not like the original client-side error caused by users configuring their browsers in a way that site owners might consider hostile or otherwise not worth supporting.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- carlob 11y agoIt's not considered hostile by the site owners https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10959363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10959363 in fact it's already fixed. My original comment was in the spirit of helping a fellow programmer find a possible bug. On the other hand I found themartorana's comment to be particularly snarky wrt a large proportion of web citizens that are increasingly worried about their privacy. The fact that his own website doesn't seem to work at all is just very ironic.
- scintill76 11y agoI do see that these particular site owners don't mind their users using Ghostery and uBlock. Some may not go out of their way because they see it as their users denying them ad revenue or analytics (the user is "hostile".) A similar situation happens with NoScript, where some site owners view Javascript as a basic, easily-met prerequisite to using their site, and will do nothing to help users who don't want to enable JS. I presumed that's what themartorana was referring to about why they might not bother to fix it, and why I thought it would be useful to point out that according to the error message you got, themartorana's site is broken in a different, more fundamental way.
- D3nver 11y agoIncredibly petty.
- threadbase 11y agouBlock is killing some of our graphs. Fixing this is on our todo list (although not top ten) so hopefully resolved in not too long.
- carlob 11y agoSeems to be fixed now.
- BatFastard 11y agoI like the concept of the post, but found it difficult to read. Too much data, and not enough conclusions.
- thirdsun 11y agoThe conclusions are in the headlines and further details can be found in the paragraphs below. I think it was easy to skim through and get a good picture of their takeaways.
- mojoe 11y agoThis is a cool analysis, although I think every t-shirt I own is from Target (Merona and Mossimo brands) so I didn't have a single point of reference for the width and length charts. Those charts seemed like by far the most useful part of this post. Edit: I'm curious about the downvotes. Are people appalled at my lack of taste in t-shirts? :)
- abrowne 11y agoIt confirms that American Apparel small fits me well, but I need XS from other brands. I guess Zara small would be OK too.
- tdaltonc 11y agoMan, so many things that I always wanted to know. Why didn't a marketing team at Tide make a infographic about this a decade ago?
- josephjrobison 11y agoBecause they spend all their money on TV commercials and magazine ads!
- nextos 11y agoIt's pretty well known that tees made using 1920s-era loopwheeling machines don't suffer from size changes, and age really well. But sadly these are now super expensive, and only offered by Japanese niche brands who bought machinery from American corps.
- Cyph0n 11y agoI remember visiting a Japanese clothes shop here in Dubai and I noticed their shirts were quite different in texture than anything else I'd seen. It was expensive too. I think it's called Superdry? Could that be one of the niche brands you're talking about or are they just using a unique blend of textiles? In any case, it's quite fascinating how sometimes old tech is simply better than what we have today.
- jdietrich 11y agoSuperdry are faux-Japanese, they are actually a British company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperGroup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperGroup
- radicalbyte 11y agoSuperdry is a British brand which produces rather nice shirts with Japanese print on them :)
- Cyph0n 11y agoDamn, it felt Japanese though :(
- kgabis 11y agoIt's quite funny actually: "The Japanese text incorporated in the brand's logo—極度乾燥(しなさい) (kyokudo kansō (shinasai)?)—literally translates as "Maximum dry (please do)", the text in brackets being due to the translation software used offering alternatives depending on whether dry is intended as a noun (e.g., super dryness) or an imperative, (e.g., dry this shirt out)." [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperGroup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperGroup
- smcl 11y agoThese sizing charts are incredible and must have taken a lot of effort to put together. I'm gonna come back to this page a lot.
- kelukelugames 11y agoThe results are too important to accept without peer review, examine the methodology, etc.
- godzillabrennus 11y agoSeems like you guys and http://Markable.com http://Markable.com would have a natural symbiotic relationship for data sharing.
- janzer 11y agoAs a bit of an aside, I actually came across this from a tweet by Adam Savage of Mythbusters fame.
- itchyouch 11y agoI've standardized my shirts on the Uniqlo Crew Shirts and they seem to have very little change from wash to wash compared to my Banana Shirts. The Uniqlo shirts are a cotton/polyester blend while the BR shirts are 100% cotton, which explains the help that durability of the synthetic materials provide. It would be great if we could get some data on which brands have the most and least variance and which brands expand and shrink the most over their lifetime.
- hammock 11y agoPoly blends are not going to noticeably get smaller wash to wash. They will get worse-looking though, as they don't shrink consistency - only the cotton shrinks, not the polyester.
- sehr 11y agoProbably one of the few times I've enjoyed an ad, useful and interesting! good job threadbase
- Dan_in_Brighton 11y agoGreat to have this data. But wouldn't the extent of dryer-induced shrinkage be driven by the amount of time in the dryer, as much or more than temperature? While most modern dryers offer a choice of temperatures, the big knob mostly controls a humidistat-based target. I personally equate the "very dry" setting with "shrink beyond usability". I'd expect that removing clothes while still damp would be more important to avoiding shrinkage than reducing the heat, but I'm no T-shirt scientist. (T-shirtician? T-shirtologist?)
- pizzasynthesis 11y agoFrom the post: "The biggest determinant of shrinkage is whether the shirt went in the dryer or not. (We wash and dry all t-shirts using a warm wash and normal/warm dry cycle)."
- stickfigure 11y agoThat doesn't answer the question, which is an interesting one. Where in the dry cycle does shrinkage occur? If you dry on hot to slightly damp, do you get the same level of shrinkage as cool to fully dry? If so, why haven't I ever seen a dryer that starts hot and transitions to cool as the clothes dry out?
- mikestew 11y agoIf so, why haven't I ever seen a dryer that starts hot and transitions to cool as the clothes dry out? I'm pretty sure that all of the three dryers we've had in the last twenty years had a permanent press setting that does exactly that. Our current one certainly does, and it's just the front-loader that was on sale at Home Depot, nothing fancy.
- taejo 11y agoBut they call it "permanent press" so those of us who didn't study domestic science don't know what it does ;) Thanks for explaining something I was always curious about in the laundry room but forgot about by the time I reached a computer.
- wslh 11y agoside note to the web team: please add RSS to your blog.
- ksec 11y agoWe should mandate all Blog to have RSS.
- jimbobimbo 11y agoI learned the dryer effect hard way - so many good tees were destroyed. :( Nowadays I just leave my t-shirts and polos to dry. The size charts is a real eye opener. I know that Abercrombie carries smalls that fit me fine, but Zara was an unknown to me. Apparently, their tees are also reasonably priced and look pretty good... Thanks for the post!
- bravura 11y agotldr Pro-tip: If you want to get long life out of clothes you like, don't put them in the dryer.
- MaxHalford 11y agoDoes someone know what tools were used to make the graphs in this article?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- specialist 11y agoThis is a great resource, thank you. Being tall with a long torso, trial and error buying t-shirts has been torturous and expensive.
- UnoriginalGuy 11y agoDitto. Then you finally find a shirt which is just the "right" length at the store, and three washes later and it is too short... But you cannot buy the next size up since you need more LENGTH not shoulder width. Very few brands make t-shirts which are 2x-tall (as opposed to 2x-large, where both the length AND width increases). A medium-2xtall would be like the unicorn of t-shirts. The sizes should be: S, M, L, 2x, 3x, etc & S-T, S-2xT, S-3xT, M-T, M-2xT, etc.
- Rafert 11y agoThere's a Dutch brand that specializes in extra long t-shirts: http://www.girav.com/ http://www.girav.com/ - they have Standard Long for men 1.75m (5.8 ft) to 1.85m (6 ft), Long Fit 1.85m (6 ft) / 1.90m (6.2 ft) or taller, and Extra Long Fit 2.00m (6.6 ft) and over.
- art0rz 11y agoHave you tried shirts from skateboarding/extreme sports brands? They tend to be longer but relatively not much wider.
- g10r 11y agoA "2xtall" for every size would be nice. I wear a small and most shirts run a bit short for my liking.
- sschueller 11y agoVery cool but please add a metric measurements option to your search.
- samstave 11y ago>What surprised us was that over the course of many wash cycles, the chest and waist will drift wider and the length will drift shorter. What if the fabric was rotated 90 degrees upon manufacture, wouldn't this eliminate this problem? The shrink pattern is related to the orientation of the thread build of the fabric used is it not?
- clort 11y agoI'm not sure that it would.. the next sentence says that the shirt expands when worn and 2x more in the chest than the length.. that says to me that its not the weave, its just being stretched more in the chest direction so the length never recovers from its shrinking which becomes cumulative.
- ryanmonroe 11y agoI think this is because the shirt is stretched horizontally just from being worn but obviously there's no forces stretching the shirt vertically because any force that would stretch it vertically just raises the bottom instead
- Broken_Hippo 11y agoThe fabric can't always be rotated 90 degrees. Some T-shirts body portion is made from tubes of fabric. The ones with seams on the sides have the possiblity, but that highly depends on the weave of the t-shirt material itself. The material is knit in a way that is stretchy, and turning the pattern pieces (the only logical way to turn the fabric 90 degrees) can make the shirt not stretch the right directions when worn and/or force changes in the garment itself.
- vanilla-almond 11y agoI don't have a dryer, but I've still had cotton shirts (not t-shirts) shrink in the washing machine. This usually happens the first time (or first few times) they are washed at the temperature recommended on the label: 40°C (104°F). However, at 30°C (86°F) I've never encountered any shrinkage. So this purely anecdotal experience makes me believe that the temperature of water can affect some cotton garments.
- _greim_ 11y agoIs there a "grain" to the fabric or something? Why not turn it 90deg and have the shirts increase in length and decrease in the chest instead? I'd prefer size to stay the same over time, but if I had to choose I think I'd rather have that.
- xaybey 11y agoBecause the shirt would not stretch to your chest, making it hard to get on/off. Also it would look like a flaccid tube hanging off your body.
- _greim_ 11y agoSo is there no economic pressure to develop a fabric weave that's both efficient to manufacture and stable over time?
- xaybey 11y agoThe knit pattern (tees are not woven) only affects the ratio of stretch per direction. Shrinkage is much more a property of the fiber and fabric processing, like prewashing.
- jwagenet 11y agoI would love to see the size dataset expand to casual and dress buttonups, and even jeans. A bit of data like this will greatly improve my shopping experience.
- mc32 11y agoThe most maddening things is that even within a brand, size, S,M,L, etc. are inconsistent, never mind hoping there would be consistency of measurement across brands. Their charts expose this onconsistency. Some brands Mack Weldon, is more consistent than say American Apparel. Even when objective measures like pants waist size in inches, typically a size 32" actually 34" --I guess to make people think they are thinner tan they actually are.
- vyyvyyv 11y agoAre there plans to do this for women's clothing?
- threadbase 11y agoI'm the founder of threadbase. Thanks everyone for your kind words. I'd love to hear any comments or suggestions for what you'd like to see next or how we can improve the user experience. We're also looking for front-end/design help, as well as help with computer vision tech. Feel free to email me chris@threadbase.com.
- dc2 11y agoYes: this is actually amazing, thank you. I'm 6.5" and way 175 pounds. No. Shirts. Ever. Fit. Me.
- crabasa 11y agoLoved the post, here's a feature request for you: I organize an annual conference [1]. All of our attendees get a free tshirt. We purchase all of our tees from a single manufacturer (say American Apparel) and let the attendee tell us the size they want before we finalize the order. The problem is that attendees often don't know what size will fit them, and sometimes guess wrong and end up with a poor fit. Anything you could offer us to help here? [1] http://2016.cascadiajs.com http://2016.cascadiajs.com
- chrissnell 11y agoThey should build a system like the "True Fit" size finder on Moosejaw.com. You tell them about your body size and then give them some brand/size combos that you already have and like. The finder can then tell you which size to buy for XYZ brand.
- nether 11y agoAwesome work. Small nit: wish the average values were shown as colored dashed vertical lines.
- wsul 11y agoI own an online apparel company that I launched on HN three years ago, but before this, I built tech companies, so maybe I can weigh in with what I've found (and have been really surprised by). Fit is almost a philosophical decision. Most companies only have five sizes (XS-XL) and the goal is probably to accommodate as large of a % of your customer base as you can with each of those five sizes. Most designers either use themselves to build their sizing from, or use a fit model, someone that literally is paid to stay the same size year round and give input on the fit. After the decision on who, exactly, you want to design to, you need to decide how the individual garment should fit. eg. some streetwear might have a 4" longer shirt from the high point shoulder than mine, if they like that long, baggy look. Some styles, like James Perse, may want a laid back, beach vibe, or cater to an older demo that might want a more forgiving shirt, so they'll want a few extra inches around the waist. In our case, I'm a very consistent medium -- almost every brand I'd expect my friends to buy from fits me well at a medium -- so I tailored our shirts to myself. We then started with what is a fairly standard grade rule to go up and down the sizes, and then after many, many batches, fine tuned each size to feedback from our customers. So -- a lot going on. There is no way to standardize what a "medium" is across brands (and some companies don't even use the same terminology!) The frustrating part, as a consumer, however, is when a brand doesn't have consistency between batches of the same style, colors within the same style, or between styles!! eg. I have a pair of Levis (huge fan..) on right now that I have the same exact wash, and style, but the 31 waist is MUCH bigger than the 32 waist. In this case, they were probably sewn in different factories, and they don't have tight enough tolerances in QC, or something. Between styles happen because a big company like Nike, for instance, may have 100 designers, who may not want to re-use design elements/blocks from one style to the next - and would prefer to fit / design their new tee how they see fit. But as a consumer, I expect all Nike medium shirts to fit the same, so that is frustrating. Turns out, sewing things by hand, and dying, pre-shrinking natural fabrics, etc. is really hard. We've been working on our processes for three years, and are incredibly proud of what we've built... but we learn new ways to improve every day!
- nether 11y agoAwesome work. Small nit: wish the average values were shown as colored dashed vertical lines. What rationale is there for companies not standardizing on sizes? Is the motive just vanity sizing?
- jakub_g 11y agoI feel obliged to share a lifehack my mother taught me regarding the laundry. After removing the laundry, take your t-shirts and stretch them yourself, one by one, when they're still slightly wet. Grab them with two hands symmetrically, stretch horizontally, moving your hands down along the shirt. Do the same vertically, and with the sleeves. Do not use a machine dryer, just a regular standing dryer like [1]. Put your t-shirts carefully, symmetrically on the dryer, and once dry, put them on a hanger. If you follow this, you will not have to iron them at all. Source: been doing this for 4 years and I didn't touch the iron since. I have all t-shirts 100% cotton (though I buy only high-grammage ones) and they all seem brand new and ironed (the only exception being one particular brand whose collar looks bad unless ironed, I stopped buying that brand). YMMV of course. [1] http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41oWjx2Q-mL._SY300_.jpg http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41oWjx2Q-mL._SY300_.jp...
- hakanderyal 11y agoMy wife has a similar trick that we've been using successfully. After removing the laundry, we fold everything neatly, and leave them stacked on top of each other for 30-60 mins. Than we dry them with a standing dryer. Haven't ironed t-shirts or jeans since we got married.
- unicornporn 11y ago> I feel obliged to share a lifehack my mother taught me regarding the laundry. After removing the laundry, take your t-shirts and stretch them yourself, one by one, when they're still slightly wet. Grab them with two hands symmetrically, stretch horizontally, moving your hands down along the shirt. Do the same vertically, and with the sleeves. Interesting, I never considered this a hack. Noone told me this, but I always do it. Ironing is never needed. I do it with pants too.
- jakub_g 11y agoI didn't consider it a hack until I've seen a friend of mine having stuff thrown carelessly on the dryer, everything unpleasantly crumpled
- 11y ago
- boulos 11y agoHow did you actually do the measuring? The "manufacturing variance" chart jumped out at me as looking fairly unnatural: there's a variation in width or variation in length but very little points that mix. Then I noticed that we're talking about just over half an inch in each direction. How much of this effect is variation in your measurement?
- threadbase 11y agoThere's a standard process we have for measuring each item. The goal is to flatten the shirt without pulling on the material. Measuring clothing is really, really hard to do in a consistent way. In my original plan for the project, I was going to hire 5 task rabbits to measure everything, then throw out the min and max and take the median of the remaining three numbers. It didn't work. The average taskrabbit had a standard deviation of error of 0.3" for each shirt. That might have been OK if the errors were purely random, but there was a lot of systematic error as well. Eventually I was able to find two people who could provide consistent measurements. They were within 0.1" of my measurement for each item. When there was a difference of more than 0.1" we would remeasure the shirt. In general I feel good about the data we published.
- timv 11y ago> throw out the min and max and take the median of the remaining three numbers. Do you really mean median here? Or did you intend to write mean? If you're planning to take median, there no need to throw out the min & max first.
- chrismartin 11y agoThis is excellent. Independent, consumer-empowering size analysis, especially measured over extended wear and washing. I'll be following you. I wonder if there are any companies that sell inexpensive custom t-shirts? Provide your measurements, specify desired fit, neck type, color, and fabric, and order exactly what you want. As someone very hard to fit for pants (28" waist and cyclist thighs), I would be thrilled if you also do this for jeans and shorts.
- wsul 11y agoWe've thought about doing made-to-order tees before, but at the end of the day, since we sew in Los Angeles, they'd end up being like $75 each for a custom pattern. There are some companies that have done tees and polos though - Polos - VASTRM. Button ups - Blank Label, Pacific Issue, Proper Cloth. Tees - SonofaTailor, Threadmason.
- jedberg 11y agoThe most important thing I learned from this page was that American Apparel sizes small. Since 3/4s of all my shirts are startup shirts and most of those are AA, this is good to know.
- flormmm 11y agoThis is data I'm grateful to have and at the same time, can't believe someone went to all the trouble to get it !
- mrbill 11y agoI still have a problem with my big and tall shirts - I have to hang-dry them to keep them from shrinking vertically when run through the dryer (due to my body type). This backs up what I've complained about for years :)
- graycat 11y agoHow to make T-shirts longer: Wash as usual and then hang on a plastic hanger until dry. So, don't use a dryer and just let them hang, starting when they are still wet from the washing. Also works when hand wash and rinse but don't squeeze out much of the water, that is, hang them while they are still wet enough to drip. Also works with knit polo shirts.
- solotronics 11y agoThis is awesome!
- jkereako 11y agoGood stuff. I'm interested to see data on other cotton garments, particularly buttondown shirts. Cotton is just a lousy fiber. On the other hand, wool is a strong and resilient fiber. It also never needs to be washed provided it isn't stained. My wife knit a wool sweater for a close friend of mine who spent 6 months as a bosun on the tallship the Lady Washington (the Interceptor in the Pirates of the Caribbean). Fresh water is scarce on a tallship so showers were infrequent. He came home during Christmas and I smelled the sweater which he claims he never washed and it smelled fresh. Surprisingly, it also kept him warm and dry on the open ocean. I later learned that Irish fishermen have been wearing wool sweaters at sea for generations. Wool is the fiber of the past and future.
- andor 11y ago"Cotton is just a lousy fiber. On the other hand, wool is a strong and resilient fiber. It also never needs to be washed provided it isn't stained." You're mixing things up. Cotton is stronger than wool, cotton shirts last many years longer than wool shirts. It's less noticeable with sweaters simply because their fabric is thicker. On the other hand, wool can be more comfortable to wear because it retains more heat and absorbs moisture better.
- jkereako 11y ago> You're mixing things up. Cotton is stronger than wool Turns out cotton is actually stronger than wool. I suspected that since all my cotton shirts are perpetually wrinkled the fibers are weak. https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bZuKb5YznrcJ:https://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2008/Projects/J1207.pdf+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bZuKb5...
- blahedo 11y ago> While hot water may cause shrinkage in wool garments, for cotton and polyester t-shirts, the washer settings don't make a big difference. This is also more or less true of wool, in fact. It's not the hot water that shrinks a wool sweater, it's getting it damp and agitating it. The hotter it is while agitating, the faster it will shrink; being fully wet (as opposed to damp) mitigates the felting process somewhat. It appears that cotton is the same way (although its shrinkage is less extreme and less permanent than shrinking a wool sweater!). You can certainly get a wool sweater wet with hot water without shrinking it at all. If you're careful, you can wash it in hot water and agitate it to wash it properly, as long as you don't overdo it, without shrinking it. With some treated wools you can tumble dry on no heat, although I wouldn't recommend it; but under no circumstances should you wash a wool garment (in whatever heat of water) and then put it in a dryer with any heat at all. That will shrink it. I knit, so I have extra awareness of how many people just don't know what to do with wool these days, and I have to educate them if I want to give them something I made. :)
- glossyscr 11y agoHow did you get samples from all the manufacturers, did you buy them all? In particular for the variance test (20 pieces per manufacturer).
- cakes 11y agoThis is really interesting/useful for the next time I'm looking to make t-shirt purchases.
- mcv 11y agoInteresting data! I remember the excessively short/wide t-shirts well from my early university days, when I still took my laundry to my parents who had a dryer. Now I dry my clothes on a line, and they don't seem to deform so much.