8 ms·

I like Angela Merkel, and I live in the EU (Ireland). I think she's wrong about a lot of things though. The EU is on shaky foundations. The original principles

• digi_owl 11y ago
  Most of the peace was achieved by having two superpowers use Europe as their high noon staring contest location. Most of Europe was exhausted from two generations of war at that point, so having another would be a fools errand. Also, i don't think Merkel has much say in any of this. Its her finance minister and his buddies at the ECB that is running the show.
• icebraining 11y ago
  Is there really a strong anti-EU movement? Admittedly I don't really follow the nationals politics of the other member states, but at least from my position - living in one of the PIGS - what I see is mostly a movement against the Euro. I mean, sure, Merkel, Schäuble and Juncker are demonized quite a bit, but I think the argument is for improving the EU, not leaving it.
  • ju-st 11y ago
    Nobody is against the EU except far-right political partys and their supporters. edit: so far left, too, sorry!
    • touzen 11y ago
      That's not entirely true though. There are a lot of leftists who oppose the EU because they believe it is to neoliberal, prioritizing the protecting of businesses rather than the interests of the people. At least that's the case here in Sweden, and I'd be surprised if we were unique in this aspect.
    • st0p 11y ago
      Over here in the Netherlands, that is not true. The SP (Socialist Party) is on the left end of the political spectrum and is pretty anti EU.
      • varjag 11y ago
        Political fringes of all colors are against EU by necessity. Their ideas and principles can't blossom otherwise.
    • gaius 11y ago
      In British politics the need to leave the EU ASAP unites both left and right. I personally want out because of the Double Irish and the Dutch Sandwich. "Racist!" is the only argument the self-serving pro-EU movement have left, and no-one pays any attention to that word anymore. The future of the UK lies where it always has, with the Commonwealth.
• realusername 11y ago
  This is not only the UK I believe, it's just the UK is the only country where citizen will have their opinion heard about the EU, the sentiment is shared by other countries. On my case in France, they won't do a vote because they are really afraid of the result, the anti-EU movement is going stronger every year and I believe it's the same in Germany, Spain and Italy. As much I as love the EU myself, it's currently not very democratic I must admit.
  • netcan 11y ago
    I think that pressure would be healthier if directed at a real path. The combination of EU as scapegoat and fear-based counter-politics by the political establishment is unhealthy. I don't think it's possible to really poll opinion in this environment. Look at Scotland. They wanted an independence vote from the UK. It would have been historically peaceful and safe independence. They would have joined the EU, maintained close ties with England. But, when push came to shove, Scotland didn't want it, mostly because of anxiety. That's a real pressure valve. If Scotland really wanted independence (like Ireland did 100 years ago) it would have passed. It would also put pressure on the EU to improve. I want more democracy too. It wouldn't be bad to have countries demand it to stave off EU-exit politics.
    • realusername 11y ago
      It's indeed complicated, the EU is moving way too fast for local cultures, they are also arriving in a bad economic climate so it does not help. No-one thinks themselves "European" either (whatever this might mean), the European Union looks from the outside as a floating entity on top of Europe, it's difficult for people to relate to it. The fact that politicians are avoiding to do a poll with almost 35% (total of left + right parties) of votes to openly Anti-EU party (this was in 2012, I imagine it's more now, and this is only people voting for openly anti-EU parties, the real figures are obviously higher) is also seen really negatively and does not help at all to improve the general opinion of the European Union.
      • netcan 11y ago
• vidarh 11y ago
  I detest Merkel generally, but her refugee policy was the right thing and earned her some grudging respect from me. Unfortunately it could very well be her undoing if she doesn't pull it off very well.
  • vixen99 11y ago
    On the other hand, not much grudging or otherwise, respect from the German women (among others) molested and in some cases raped by them. Hungarian women will count themselves lucky they have Orban as PM. 'Could be her undoing' is an understatement.
• threeseed 11y ago
  > Rather than an intelligent abstract policy of allowing Greek to make their own decisions. I think the point was that Greece needs to change and arguably are incapable of making the decisions that need to be made. Germany felt that there was an need/opportunity to impose that change. Whether it was the right move or will be successful is a completely seperate discussion. The rampant tax avoidance, the unsustainable pension system, the very low productivity and the culture that allowed Greece to lie their way into the EU all need to stop if they are going to be a successful part of Europe.
  • bostik 11y ago
    > "[...] allowed Greece to lie their way into the EU" I believe you hit the nail, but not quite on the head. The fact that it was possible to get into EU through systematic lies was a symptom of a much bigger problem. I remember when Greece joined. Everyone I know thought that it was an insane idea, because Greece simply wasn't ready or financially stable enough. But at the time the main political drive in EU was expansion. It was almost as if the heads of EU states felt that unless the union was large enough it would be irrelevant. So the policy was expansion at all costs. And there was nothing subtle about it. Hell, a Finnish politician got the seat of a commissary of EU expansion! Not sure whether that was naked ambition or just institutional myopia.
• mahouse 11y ago
  >I also appreciate her refugee policy. My grandparents (like many's) were refugees in WWII Unfortunately it looks like she'll need help from Cesar Millan with these migrants. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKu6Y7FtgF4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKu6Y7FtgF4 Comparing the honest hard-working refugees that came into Germany during WWII to these beings is a damn joke.
  • threeseed 11y ago
    This nonsense again. You can't just tarnish all migrants based on the actions of a few young teenagers. As we've seen in all countries migrants especially those with families end up being massive positives for the country and its biggest defenders.
    • mahouse 11y ago
      The question is not whether we can judge all refugees based on the actions of those animals, but whether it's a fair deal to put in risk our well-being and security in our own countries to keep them here. We have worked very very hard to end poverty and everything else that leads to crime during decades, we don't need to import more of it! That said, if those beasts are fit enough to molest women, they should be fit enough to join Assad's army and fight ISIS. But of course it's better to come here and ask for free stuff. Whether you like it or not, people won't stand this situation for much longer. The rise of the far right in France is a huge warning sign, and it's only the beginning of it.
      • k-mcgrady 11y ago
        >> "We have worked very very hard to end poverty and everything else that leads to crime during decades" Have you? What have YOU done besides be born in the right country? Put yourself on the other side of it. What if you'd be born in Syria and had a lovely life until all hell broke loose a few years ago? Would you be fighting ISIS? Fighting Assad? Or would you be begging EU states to let you in?
        • 11y ago
• iNerdier 11y ago
  One of the founding principles of the EU has really been to try and avoid a repeat of the world wars that are still (just about) in living memory. In that respect it's been a wild success, I'm not sure we've ever had such a lasting amount of peace. As someone with a mixed UK / Greek background it's been interesting and often painful seeing the current woes of the EU. Greece has had a lot of problems, many of which really do benefit from outside oversight. I've seen a large amount of corruption there, be it deliberate or just letting things slide. Having input from outside to try and stamp out some of the more rampant stuff is very much a good thing. However this isn't always a good thing, the rise of the far right 'golden dawn' can very much be attributed to old stirrings of anti German sentiment, much of it based on inflammatory second world war tub thumping (although ignoring the fact that many of the particularly right wing areas now were Nazi sympathisers, go figure). The UK has, in contrast, been much more high handed. I think a lot of the Greeks are worried but ultimately they really do want to stay in the EU, where as I'm not sure that's the case in England. There's this air of superiority, both from the colonial past and the nature of the UK as an island that lends itself well to always expecting to be treated specially for some reason. Rather than forever going towards a broader union I can't help wondering if a more hazy framework would work better, rather than having an authority in Brussels/Strasbourg could we not have representatives from sovereign governments that debate these issues when they affect areas larger than countries? Much of the current legislation seems as though it doesn't really need to be done on such a sweeping scale.
  • riffraff 11y ago
    > In that respect it's been a wild success, I'm not sure we've ever had such a lasting amount of peace. It's weird, but we basically had decades of peace in Europe with only minor conflicts before WWI. Interestingly enough, most of this minor conflicts happened in the balkans, much like recent history. EDIT: not trying to deny your observation, or your conclusion that EU was a success in this, just mentioning an interesting fact.
    • stormbuilder 11y ago
      Well, debatable. Last major war before WWI was in 1870, however there was an arms race and escalation of military preparation since the last years of the 1890s. So you really only had a couple of decades of peace, then people started preparing for war again.
• billybofh 11y ago
  > Europe has been at peace for a logn time I think in terms of peace it's useful to distinguish between the EU and Europe. There have been a couple of wars in Europe in my lifetime. Not to mention a few military dictatorships (which had a kind of 'peace' I suppose - but not a good one), assassinations of leaders etc. Maybe (hopefully!) we'll get through this without it imploding - maybe end up with a more Hanseatic League kind of set up, maybe more like the US. 'May you live in interesting times' and all that... ;-)
  • netcan 11y ago
    I agree, there has been conflict. It is far from a perfect peace. But, it has been more peaceful than ever before.
  • jcfrei 11y ago
    I would also question whether this period of peace in Europe is really due to the EU. The EU and it's predecessors certainly contributed to it, but I would argue it's a marginal contribution. If you look at world history after WWII you see that major conflicts - between two powerful nations - have largely disappeared. Instead we got a slew of proxy wars: US vs. China in Korea, US vs. China/USSR in Vietnam or Iran vs. Saudi Arabia in Syria more recently. I think the reason for this is purely economical. No country can afford in the late 20th century to break all diplomatic ties with another country (and their allies), so instead of engaging in an all out war they support local regimes or mercenaries whilst maintaining the necessary economic relations with supporters of opposing regimes. In Europe meanwhile the economies have become so interconnected (even before the EU) that any war would mean economic devastation for the whole region and is thus an impossible course for any regime.
    • billybofh 11y ago
      I think the EU certainly helped a lot by trade and free movement of people. It's a lot harder to make people from another country into demons if you've met them and shared a bottle of wine with some of their (almost inevitably from a UK perspective, better) food. Not impossible - but much harder. I think we've had proxy wars by major powers going back millenia - I don't think that's such a strange situation for Europe compared to free movement and cheap flights.
• return0 11y ago
  > We need a way for countries that don't want to be in, to get out. Can you imagine a US state doing that? I don't think unions are reversible at this state in history. The national state is not exactly living a revival. This is majorly a financial crisis. > This has left our national governments with a nice scapegoat, great for populists, nationalists and fringe politicians to use for their purposes That is a very good observation. It's the reason Greece is suffering at the moment. But leaving the EU at this point would be even worse.
  • netcan 11y ago
    On the US: The USA is ancient compare to the EU. The EU's first days were debated on the internet. The US' were debated by pamphleteers, distributed on horseback and had slavery as a side issue midway down a list of policy questions to debated later. Could you imagine The US expanding its union? Could you imagine Mexico joining, the constitution being re-written? I don't think we're bounded by what the US is or has done. Even the US isn't. Times change. On exits I don't think that option would be taken very often. (A) It would pressure the EU to be what it needs to be, a Union countries want to be a part of. (B) It would change the local political debate. At the moment, the anti-EU Trump^ can safely talk without it meaning anything. I think the EU should be built to withstand border changes, in both directions. ^Interesting how rarely EU politics is debated on HN compared to US politics. Hello brothers from across the Atlantic.
    • binarymax 11y ago
      I would love to see an American/Canadian/Mexican union - with similar ideals of the EU. I doubt it will happen in my lifetime though.
      • jqm 11y ago
        It seems that would produce little but similar problems to those the EU is having.
      • green7ea 11y ago
        As a Canadian, this scares me. The only outcome I can imagine of such a union is that the American states would bully our politics to an even greater degree.
• rmc 11y ago
  > We need a way for countries that don't want to be in, to get out. It will act as a relief from a lot of populist pressure. If the UK want out, they should have an available option That has been possible since the Treaty of Lisbon.
• wbillingsley 11y ago
  The EU has lost its main purpose - in a sense it's a victim of having largely done its job. Although it was originally created to prevent future wars in Europe, the role it performed most effectively for most of its life was to be an incentive for countries on its borders to open their markets and become democracies. Spain, Portugal, Greece, and most of eastern Europe, left dictatorships and/or communism behind and joined the European gravy train all, all through the 80s and 90s. But its borders are rather different now -- corrupt cronyism (to the East) and Islamic radicalisation (ISIS etc, to the south) are the main threatening neighbours. It's less effective at dealing with those, and there's not many countries it can dangle the carrot of membership in front of, and the prospects of them being accepted are lower. So with the potential gains gone, it's left looking like a layer of bureaucracy and interference sitting heavy-handedly on top of two dozen market-based democratic economies.
  • netcan 11y ago
    What you describe is not an unreasonable assessment, but it is very pessimistic. I don't think it's a matter of bleak reality, where a more optimistic assessment is naive or less reasonable. Europe is generally a peaceful place, a decent political culture with relatively low tolerance for overtly sociopathic political actors. The corrupt cronyism is a real problem, a bigger problem outside the EU than in and most certainly not a new problem.
• jasode 11y ago
  >allowing Greek to make their own decisions, Apparently, Greece owes Germany $80+ billion dollars[1]. Of course, if it were up to Greece alone, they'd prefer to say "just forgive our past loans and let's reset the odometer to 0 for a new set of loans. And oh, btw, don't expect to get paid back on the new loans either since we don't want your input on how to reform our ineffective government to even make payback possible." People want to interfere with Greece because they took lots of other people's money. If a company borrowed money from bond holders and timely payment is not possible, those bondholders can pressure the company to hire their turnaround managers in return for refinancing, or force it into bankruptcy and seize assets. Whether it's a country or a company borrowing other people's money, it's hard to see how a "hands off" policy by the lenders would be possible. [1]http://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-how-much-greece-owes-germany-others-2015-07-09 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-how-much-greece-owes-...
  • jacobolus 11y ago
    If the US were organized like the EU, several of the states would be heavily indebted and bankrupt, with a third world quality of life, and the financial, industrial, and entertainment centers would be even richer. Instead, richer states transfer huge amounts of money to poorer states through various federal programs (infrastructure spending, assistance to the states, federal welfare programs, etc.), going a long way towards putting citizens on an equal footing everywhere in the nation. The banking system is unified and federally insured, disaster relief is centrally supported, people are free to move around entirely freely as citizenship is handled at the national level. Every state has a comparable seat at the political table. The weaker states in Europe should have never agreed to a currency union without any kind of fiscal or political union. It led to a massive bubble of stupidly cheap debt and speculative capital inflow, and then when the economy started looking iffy all the money flowed out again, and poof. Losing control of your monetary policy is straightjacket enough when your economy dips, but under the rules of their debt deals, Greece also lost control over fiscal policy, and was forced to apply pro-cyclical cuts to government spending. They ended up in worse-than-great-depression level economic collapse, with absolutely no tools available to deal with it. For Germany by contrast, the Euro has been great (though fiscal austerity in response to a recession was stupid for them too). Their currency has been artificially weak relative to their neighbors, helping them run huge trade surpluses.
• deleted 11y ago
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• rbehrends 11y ago
  > We need a way for countries that don't want to be in, to get out. It will act as a relief from a lot of populist pressure. If the UK want out, they should have an available option. The EU has a well-defined mechanism for secession; it is what the "out" option on the UK referendum is about. Any country can get out of the EU within a couple of years if they really want that.
• trw0012 11y ago
  > I also appreciate her refugee policy. My grandparents (like many's) were refugees in WWII. I think it came from a genuine place of human solidarity. You've made a very serious mistake, and that's to think that all peoples are the same. It's beautiful think that religion, race and culture don't matter, but that's simply wrong as a matter of fact, and we're going to learn it the hard way. > I hope it doesn't sting Germany too badly. I think a few German women have been stung already. Not that the TPTB had any intention of letting us know.
  • PavlovsCat 11y ago
    > You've made a very serious mistake, and that's to think that all peoples are the same. You're making the mistake to think that "peoples" are a monolith. They are much less so than racists. Which, regardless of other problems that need to be addressed, should have a priority of not being given one inch. We should have learned that the hard way, and now again this rhetoric is trying to weasel its way into everywhere. Say what you want, wish what you want, but it changed nearly nothing for the people who wanted to help before. Those who didn't were obstructing before and are exploiting it now. They just got louder and more violent, not more correct.