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"as the only African American on her team, she didn’t feel she had much in common with her colleagues. “When I went out to lunch or something with my team, it w

by pingou 11y ago

"as the only African American on her team, she didn’t feel she had much in common with her colleagues. “When I went out to lunch or something with my team, it was sort of like, ‘Soooo, what are you guys talking about?’ ” she says" I find this sentence really shocking, perhaps because I'm french and in France we try to assimilate people more (I don't really know), but I would definitely think that as a white software engineer I have a lot more in common with the black software engineer working with me than with whatever random white dude.

pofjer 11y ago
I found it really shocking as well. Not sure how much of it is due to segregation and how much - due to the inability of the person to socialise… which is not uncommon among technical people from all races.
- PaulHoule 11y ago
  That is what is so hard about it. Everybody gets treated unfairly from time to time, feels awkward, etc. When you are "black" you don't know the line between racism and man's general inhumanity towards man.
  - golergka 11y ago
    Lack of smalltalk topics is hardly an "inhumanity".
  - m1sta_ 11y ago
    This is where shallow discussion of racism can be damaging. If someone receives enough messages indicating that they will be mistreated due to race it is likely to have a major impact on their psyche, then on their behaviour, then on the way they're treated... because of their race.
    - PaulHoule 11y ago
      Racism is a very real thing. Look at the way blacks get treated by the cops. Being the middle aged "ethnic white" in the Northeast I am not only submissive to cops, but I look like them -- none of my family are college professors but a lot of them work in various branches of law enforcement. I know their point of view is not the only point of view, but I understand it enough that I come across as somebody who understands their point of view so I have a hard time getting tickets and usually get off with a warning. For instance I was speeding in a residential zone and the officer got a clear picture of somebody who wouldn't like people driving fast in his residential neighborhood, not somebody who has a favorite residential neighborhood to practice Japanese street racing.
  - pofjer 11y ago
    How about not assuming racism in the first place? It may just be that you are new and people are not accustomed to having you as a part of their group. I'm sure that even if some of them have prejudices, they will accept you as soon as you show them what you are made of and that you are trustworthy. I'm sure everyone knows at least one shhole from their race, so they can accept a decent person from another one when given the opportunity. If despite your best efforts, nobody accepts you, and some even make openly racist remarks towards you, then you ring that bell.
    - noxToken 11y ago
      Because modern racism doesn't necessarily parade itself out in the open. There are subtleties to a lot of the actions that people will take, and like the parent said, you don't know the line between racism and man's general inhumanity towards man. I agree that no one should assume racism right out of the gate. I admit to being guilty of this action before. The line between cliques facing inward and people snubbing you due to race is absurdly blurry. It doesn't help when the entire group happens to be white. Then you start this internal dialogue trying to get to the bottom. Are these guys just really clique-ish to the point where everyone else is an outcast? Am I doing that weird thing where I have a scowl on my face all day? Did I say something that was misconstrued? Are they just racist pricks? Wait, am I just an asshole? This isn't to say that all who socialize with you are racist. I think your last line is a very important consideration in moments of self-reflection.
    - dlreeves 11y ago
      > How about not assuming racism in the first place? Except there is clear evidence that unconscious bias exist. To test your own you can try some of the tests as part of ProjectImplicit (https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/) Pretending it does not exist is not really helpful advice.
  - asdfaw3f 11y ago
    > you don't know the line between racism and man's general inhumanity towards man Trenchant observation. I am largely a misanthrope and my wife often points out scenarios where I'm coming across as racist/sexist/discriminatory when the reality is that I'm generally not interested in interacting with people.
skywhopper 11y ago
I didn't find it surprising. I'm white, and I've been on all-white teams where everyone else watched the same TV shows or went to the same movies or played the same video games, and I didn't. Those common interests would feel like the only thing they ever talked about, and it would feel very unwelcoming. Part of the problem is just luck of the draw in terms of the team you get placed on. If that team is all into the Marvel Cinematic Universe and you aren't, you're going to feel like an outsider, no matter what races are involved. If the team has a broader set of interests, it's far more likely the new person will be able to feel like they fit in. The other part, too, is of course that lots of engineer types are essentially introverted, and have a really hard time actively welcoming people with varied interests into their social circle. Part of it is just a matter of time, but if you go in with the expectation of feeling like an outsider and your first few weeks fit that expectation, it's a bad situation.
- ryanlol 11y ago
  But that's not what she says, her problem isn't that she doesn't like Marvel Cinematic Universe but that she feels that she doesn't have much in common with people of other races.
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  - huac 11y ago
    those are basically the same thing to put it another way: if your white friends grew up watching spongebob squarepants and you grew up without cable, that could certainly make a cultural difference
    - ryanlol 11y ago
      They aren't though. Color isn't the defining factor on what TV shows you get to watch.
      - deleted 11y ago
reidrac 11y ago
I found it shocking too. If she didn't have much in common with her colleagues, is that really because she was a black woman and they were white males? It makes me think I don't understand the importance of race in US. I mean, I have more or less things in common with my work colleagues but only because we work in the same field not because we're white males (actually I am Spanish and they're British, and the age range in the team goes from early 20s to late 30s).
- ceras 11y ago
  Looks like the comments here are all over the place on how much of an impact it has, but I'll give you my perspective as a hispanic in the US. Race is intimately tied with culture, which impacts your upbringing and interests. People form bonds over their interests and experiences, like talking about their childhood or the TV/music they like--the more these differ, the harder it is to form that first superficial work bond. Even when the differences aren't huge, it compounds enough that friend groups in the US are highly self-segregated. To pick another race, it's not rare to see Asian-Americans who were born and raised in America hanging out with a group of friends who are all Asian-American. The reasons could be as simple as bonding over the foods they ate growing up, the ways their parents raised them, and the TV shows / music they listened to (e.g. much more open to C-/J-/K-pop). It's the same effect for all races/ethnicities I've seen. Note that this ignores the more subtle but still important effect of people naturally liking people who look and dress like them, which has obvious racial and cultural ties too. For example, there are studies in the US that show that white people are fine living near black people, but not too many black people. Overtime, simulations show[1] that almost any definition of too many results in self-segregation. IME coming from a working class background, economic background has a similar effect on relationships, but economic background is not visually obvious like race so it's less discussed. [1]: http://ncase.me/polygons/ http://ncase.me/polygons/
gagege 11y ago
Things like this can really vary on a company to company basis. Back-to-back, I worked for two companies that had drastically different social environments. At the first one, the other programmers were the kind of "dudes" where if you don't like to hunt or talk about sports every day they didn't want to talk to you. It was a really rough place to work, felt like I was walking on eggshells just so I could be one of their peers. The next company I worked for had a completely different environment. I got along with everyone. They all had a good sense of humor. So, I guess my point is, even software engineers can differ greatly from one place to the next.
ryanlol 11y ago
Would it be shocking if the roles were reversed? There's just as many racist black people as there are racist white people. edit: Am I wrong?
- rustynails 11y ago
  No, but two wrongs don't make a right. Also, as a society, we should be better than that. I'll give you an example. Some of my friends made disparaging remarks about Muslims. I made it clear that was a generalisation and pointed out a (predominantly Australian) area with a lot of crime, "what about that? Is that any different?" I've slowly but surely educated good people to show more tolerance. Having said that, I'll be the first to condemn inappropriate behaviour from a Muslim, Asian, white, feminist - I don't really care who. I don't have a PC bone in my body. There are some great comments in this thread. The one I can least relate to is that we can't talk to people who listen to different music or watch different TV. Really? I was involved with an African woman, Asian, European, Australian. I have had mixed friends all my life. I never honed in on TV shows, but, I honed in on honesty, integrity, attitude (eg. I can't stomach arrogance, victim mentality and aggressive people). Is this so rare that people can converse beyond skin colour and gender?
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    >No, but two wrongs don't make a right. Not in the slightest what I was trying to communicate, my point was that racism is so prevalent that it's hardly shocking at this point. Obviously that's not a good thing, but I found it a bit odd that someone would be shocked by such a remark when you hear much worse things every single day.
- dcole2929 11y ago
  In short yes. A) There are more white people in America in general (see really any/every census) B) There are fare more white people in positions of power. So it matters more when a white person is racist than when a person of color is. Racism sucks but the real kicker is discrimination
  - 11y ago
taconacho 11y ago
It's not that surprising. Howard University is 95% black (source: <a href="http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1024">http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1024</a> http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl...) and is one of the lowest ranked colleges in terms of diversity. Coming from such a culturally closed-off environment to a different one comprised mostly of whites and Asians of different ethnicities and nationalities would definitely result in culture shock.
- scarmig 11y ago
  It'd be an irony if part of the reason students at HBCUs don't "mesh" with Silicon Valley is that they're not comfortable with diverse environments. Looking at a list of the "whitest" universities, their graduates seem similarly unrepresented in the places I've worked. A flawed but interesting test: do black CS graduates from Stanford and MIT fit better into SV than black CS graduates from Howard?
  - pc86 11y ago
    I don't know how you'd measure fit (tenure at first job? % that change jobs to another SV company?), but it should be pretty easy to get hiring numbers. Stanford might not be a good test simply because of proximity, but MIT certainly would be a contender.
  - dlreeves 11y ago
    As a black alum from MIT and feel I can speak to this anecdotally. Here are some distinction to keep in mind. 1) From the moment I stepped onto MIT's campus I was actively recruited by Silicon Valley companies. My freshman year was tough getting much attention, but recruiters would talk to me and generally gave off the vibe that I was wanted. Contrast this with going to a HBCU where these companies are not present on campus, or if they do show up its only for a day or two for a career fair. You wouldn't feel as welcome coming there. 2) I had black friends who were upperclassman who had "made it" in SV. They could offer advice and guidance. When I moved out to SV I also had them as part of social circle so I had social ties outside of work. Coming from a HBCU its likely you do not know anyone who works at these companies. You also do not know anyone who lives in the area to socialize this. If you do not relate to the people from work then you have trouble making friends.
joslin01 11y ago
What do you mean by the French try to assimilate people more? I'm confused because France is notoriously horrendous to tourists. I've seen polls rate it as the worst place for customer service with tourists and my own brother's experience got him nearly in a fight with some French guys bullying him. Furthermore, this is just a cultural thing. I'm white and was in a team with a bunch of white engineers that loved cars and things. Our discussions at lunch bored me to tears and I came to realize I had to leave the mega corp to pursue my dreams in the start-up world. When I arrived at the start-up world, I found people like myself -- people who didn't care so much about things but about ideas and imaginations. I was a lot happier because I found people who thought alike. It never had anything to do with color and presenting this problem as purely color-based is just being intentionally provocative.
- pofjer 11y ago
  Can't agree more with your last paragraph! Summed up pretty much everything I was trying to say above.
- humanrebar 11y ago
  There's a difference between "come as you are" and "come join us". Diversity and assimilation are two different things.
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- pingou 11y ago
  Well I'm not an expert but it seems to me that in France we expect minorities to leave a good part of their culture and become "real french", eat cheese, wear beret and never walk without a baguette under their arms, whereas in the US I was under the impression that there's a lot more effort from minorities to differentiate themselves. I don't think we can really talk of a "black culture" in France (at least not in the same degree as in the US, but I may be mistaken). I wasn't talking about tourists, we are well known for behaving badly with them, sorry about that. What shocks me is not that she doesn't feel she has a lot in common with her colleagues, but that she thinks that it's because she's black and they're not.
blisterpeanuts 11y ago
>> ...in France we try to assimilate people more... Really? What about the Muslim immigrants in the suburbs, who are practically in a separate world from mainstream French, cut off and unable to get in on the lifetime jobs that the French middle and upper middle class enjoy? French-African entrepreneurs report that they have better luck doing business with Americans, who don't care what your race is as long as you pay on time. This is a well documented problem in France.
- pingou 11y ago
  That's why I said "try". And I'm not saying that French are less racist than American, there definitely is some discrimination going. I was more talking about cultural assimilation, I think a black american feels a lot more like he belongs to "the black community" as a french black does.
  - blisterpeanuts 11y ago
    But many, if not most, African Americans have culturally assimilated, and black culture has permeated mainstream America as well. The U.S. has come a long way since the 1960s.
- conradfr 11y ago
  It is an issue but a complex one. It's not like the whole country decided to put all Muslims there and never give them a job or education. And you should know they are plenty Muslims (and/or Arabs) programmers coming from the suburbs and having that coveted middle-class life, I worked and have worked with many.
AndyMcConachie 11y ago
This is not my experience in France at all. I'm a white American male, and I was shocked when I worked in France for a month. When I ate lunch in the cafeteria the muslim employees grouped together and there was a whole 'who are you eating with' question that I found odd. This was in 2004, and it is only 1 data point. But when talking to French friends of mine in tech who are African they share similar stories. One French friend of mine could not find a job in tech until he changed his name to a generic French one. He sent out over 20 job applications and didn't get an interview until he changed his name. After he changed his name he got an interview after the first attempt. These are only anecdotes, and I can't offer any hard evidence, but I would not suggest that France is somehow 'post-racial'.
- pingou 11y ago
  Well it doesn't mirror my experience at all, at school or at work, but yes I'm pretty sure it does happen. I didn't say there wasn't racism in France, more that the concept of belonging to a definite community depending on your color is probably less present as in the States. The job application problem is a terrible one, as getting a job is the best way to use the social ladder. That's the thing I don't understand, I thought capitalism only cared about money, if an Afro-French cannot find a job, surely it would be be advantageous to hire him, at a slightly lower market price. Still not good, but better than nothing, and once the minorities are in, we can expect the inequalities and hiring problems going away or at least being reduced with time...
  - saint_fiasco 11y ago
    >, if an Afro-French cannot find a job, surely it would be be advantageous to hire him, at a slightly lower market price In some countries doing that is illegal. If the authorities notice that you are paying people of different races different amounts of money, you can get fined. Therefore it's easier to just find excuses to not hire them in the first place. Is France one of those countries?
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bunnymancer 11y ago
It's pretty standard in the US, due to our history, for colored people to just feel out of place in 9/10 white environment. But it goes beyond that, and is most likely true for French blacks as well, that if you're the only one who is distinctly visually different, you feel out of place. It's not something you can really explain to white males, but at least female devs tend to have somewhat of a similar experience. Just the sense of not belonging by virtue of being the one who clearly isn't like the others. Imagine yourself trying to work in a software studio in an arab country. Everyone is way darker than you, just, everyone, at work, on the street, and so on. They talk about different TV shows and they frown on anything bacon, and they wear these odd dresses you never feel comfy in because you like your jeans. They're louder than you, they tend to argue way more, because it's just part of the culture to do that, and it makes you uncomfortable. And also, you keep hearing about these white Christian terrorists, that look like you, that they wish would just get shot.
- pc86 11y ago
  > It's pretty standard in the US, due to our history, for colored people to just feel out of place in 9/10 white environment. Calling them "colored people" certainly doesn't help.
  - xaa 11y ago
    Isn't it interesting how "people of color" is a common self-designation for (most frequently) black people, whereas "colored people", literally synonymous, is considered offensive? Of course there are valid historical reasons for it, but many people (probably including GP) don't know about them. The euphemism treadmill can get quite exhausting.
    - pc86 11y ago
      Well, the GP uses "our" in reference US history, and I've never met a single American under the age of 40 who doesn't know that most people consider "colored person" offensive, even if they thought it was a stupid reason. Like most things considered racially offensive, it's less about the dictionary definition of the word and more about what the connotation is. It's the same reason someone in an interracial marriage would hardly ever say "my black wife" but would say "my wife, who happens to be black," if it were relevant. I'm 100% positive they'd never say "my colored wife" unless they were 130 years old.
umanwizard 11y ago
African-Americans are a distinct ethnocultural group with their own cultural references, dialect, religious traditions, and so on (of course this doesn't apply to all black people; I'm talking about averages here.) "Black" in France is just a phenotype. Progressive-leaning people in the US would typically be uncomfortable with the idea of "assimilating" Blacks because it implies that White Anglo-Saxon culture is (or should be) the default or standard, whereas in reality it has coexisted with Black culture in the same country for hundreds of years.
- dopamean 11y ago
  As a black man who went to almost entirely white schools my whole life and grew up in a very white place in New York I can sort of confirm what you're saying. When I went to college and met other black students who grew up around more black people I found that I had very little in common with them and it was hard to communicate. I was then, and always have been, more comfortable around white people. On a side note, I was born in Jamaica and so when people refer to me as African American I always have a quiet chuckle to myself since I've never considered myself to be African and my passport says Jamaica.
  - noir_lord 11y ago
    > and it was hard to communicate. I'm curious what the differences where in communication, here in the UK the black people I've worked with have been no harder to communicate with than anyone else, I have noticed there is slightly more of a communication gap with black people who come from London (but I've only known two and they where both deeply religious which I think had more to do with it).
    - umanwizard 11y ago
      Black Americans have had their own culture developing separately from Anglo-Saxon Americans for hundreds of years. I'm not sure why you think immigrants to Britain that don't share any common group characteristic other than "has dark skin and an African phenotype" are comparable.
jetskindo 11y ago
As a black software developer I had a much easier time getting along with the white French developer culturewise.
brandonmenc 11y ago
As a white guy who is totally not into "geek culture" at all, I'm in the same boat. And I simply do not care. I'm not going to start playing video games or watching Doctor Who, or whatever, just to fit in. I'm sure it's infinitely easier for me not to feel like an imposter than it is for a black woman, but of all the real hurdles standing in her way this should be the least concerning of them. Get over it, or the real problems will seem insurmountable.
- Joof 11y ago
  I doubt its just at work; the silicon valley area itself may be a bad culture fit. From experience, when you don't have people that you relate to face-to-face at home; it gets very depressing. You personally are likely to find people you relate to at home, but they may not. Being an outsider like that is a huge tradeoff; it can feel like moving to another country.
serge2k 11y ago
I wonder if any of the issues she faced were due to being female as well. Not exactly a great diversity story in that regard either. :/

by pingou 11y ago

pofjer 11y ago

I found it really shocking as well. Not sure how much of it is due to segregation and how much - due to the inability of the person to socialise… which is not uncommon among technical people from all races.

PaulHoule 11y ago
That is what is so hard about it. Everybody gets treated unfairly from time to time, feels awkward, etc. When you are "black" you don't know the line between racism and man's general inhumanity towards man.
- golergka 11y ago
  Lack of smalltalk topics is hardly an "inhumanity".
- m1sta_ 11y ago
  This is where shallow discussion of racism can be damaging. If someone receives enough messages indicating that they will be mistreated due to race it is likely to have a major impact on their psyche, then on their behaviour, then on the way they're treated... because of their race.
  - PaulHoule 11y ago
    Racism is a very real thing. Look at the way blacks get treated by the cops. Being the middle aged "ethnic white" in the Northeast I am not only submissive to cops, but I look like them -- none of my family are college professors but a lot of them work in various branches of law enforcement. I know their point of view is not the only point of view, but I understand it enough that I come across as somebody who understands their point of view so I have a hard time getting tickets and usually get off with a warning. For instance I was speeding in a residential zone and the officer got a clear picture of somebody who wouldn't like people driving fast in his residential neighborhood, not somebody who has a favorite residential neighborhood to practice Japanese street racing.
- pofjer 11y ago
  How about not assuming racism in the first place? It may just be that you are new and people are not accustomed to having you as a part of their group. I'm sure that even if some of them have prejudices, they will accept you as soon as you show them what you are made of and that you are trustworthy. I'm sure everyone knows at least one shhole from their race, so they can accept a decent person from another one when given the opportunity. If despite your best efforts, nobody accepts you, and some even make openly racist remarks towards you, then you ring that bell.
  - noxToken 11y ago
    Because modern racism doesn't necessarily parade itself out in the open. There are subtleties to a lot of the actions that people will take, and like the parent said, you don't know the line between racism and man's general inhumanity towards man. I agree that no one should assume racism right out of the gate. I admit to being guilty of this action before. The line between cliques facing inward and people snubbing you due to race is absurdly blurry. It doesn't help when the entire group happens to be white. Then you start this internal dialogue trying to get to the bottom. Are these guys just really clique-ish to the point where everyone else is an outcast? Am I doing that weird thing where I have a scowl on my face all day? Did I say something that was misconstrued? Are they just racist pricks? Wait, am I just an asshole? This isn't to say that all who socialize with you are racist. I think your last line is a very important consideration in moments of self-reflection.
  - dlreeves 11y ago
    > How about not assuming racism in the first place? Except there is clear evidence that unconscious bias exist. To test your own you can try some of the tests as part of ProjectImplicit (https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/) Pretending it does not exist is not really helpful advice.
- asdfaw3f 11y ago
  > you don't know the line between racism and man's general inhumanity towards man Trenchant observation. I am largely a misanthrope and my wife often points out scenarios where I'm coming across as racist/sexist/discriminatory when the reality is that I'm generally not interested in interacting with people.

skywhopper 11y ago

I didn't find it surprising. I'm white, and I've been on all-white teams where everyone else watched the same TV shows or went to the same movies or played the same video games, and I didn't. Those common interests would feel like the only thing they ever talked about, and it would feel very unwelcoming. Part of the problem is just luck of the draw in terms of the team you get placed on. If that team is all into the Marvel Cinematic Universe and you aren't, you're going to feel like an outsider, no matter what races are involved. If the team has a broader set of interests, it's far more likely the new person will be able to feel like they fit in. The other part, too, is of course that lots of engineer types are essentially introverted, and have a really hard time actively welcoming people with varied interests into their social circle. Part of it is just a matter of time, but if you go in with the expectation of feeling like an outsider and your first few weeks fit that expectation, it's a bad situation.

ryanlol 11y ago
But that's not what she says, her problem isn't that she doesn't like Marvel Cinematic Universe but that she feels that she doesn't have much in common with people of other races.
- deleted 11y ago
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- huac 11y ago
  those are basically the same thing to put it another way: if your white friends grew up watching spongebob squarepants and you grew up without cable, that could certainly make a cultural difference
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    They aren't though. Color isn't the defining factor on what TV shows you get to watch.
    - deleted 11y ago

reidrac 11y ago

I found it shocking too. If she didn't have much in common with her colleagues, is that really because she was a black woman and they were white males? It makes me think I don't understand the importance of race in US. I mean, I have more or less things in common with my work colleagues but only because we work in the same field not because we're white males (actually I am Spanish and they're British, and the age range in the team goes from early 20s to late 30s).

ceras 11y ago
Looks like the comments here are all over the place on how much of an impact it has, but I'll give you my perspective as a hispanic in the US. Race is intimately tied with culture, which impacts your upbringing and interests. People form bonds over their interests and experiences, like talking about their childhood or the TV/music they like--the more these differ, the harder it is to form that first superficial work bond. Even when the differences aren't huge, it compounds enough that friend groups in the US are highly self-segregated. To pick another race, it's not rare to see Asian-Americans who were born and raised in America hanging out with a group of friends who are all Asian-American. The reasons could be as simple as bonding over the foods they ate growing up, the ways their parents raised them, and the TV shows / music they listened to (e.g. much more open to C-/J-/K-pop). It's the same effect for all races/ethnicities I've seen. Note that this ignores the more subtle but still important effect of people naturally liking people who look and dress like them, which has obvious racial and cultural ties too. For example, there are studies in the US that show that white people are fine living near black people, but not too many black people. Overtime, simulations show[1] that almost any definition of too many results in self-segregation. IME coming from a working class background, economic background has a similar effect on relationships, but economic background is not visually obvious like race so it's less discussed. [1]: http://ncase.me/polygons/ http://ncase.me/polygons/

gagege 11y ago

Things like this can really vary on a company to company basis. Back-to-back, I worked for two companies that had drastically different social environments. At the first one, the other programmers were the kind of "dudes" where if you don't like to hunt or talk about sports every day they didn't want to talk to you. It was a really rough place to work, felt like I was walking on eggshells just so I could be one of their peers. The next company I worked for had a completely different environment. I got along with everyone. They all had a good sense of humor. So, I guess my point is, even software engineers can differ greatly from one place to the next.

ryanlol 11y ago

Would it be shocking if the roles were reversed? There's just as many racist black people as there are racist white people. edit: Am I wrong?

rustynails 11y ago
No, but two wrongs don't make a right. Also, as a society, we should be better than that. I'll give you an example. Some of my friends made disparaging remarks about Muslims. I made it clear that was a generalisation and pointed out a (predominantly Australian) area with a lot of crime, "what about that? Is that any different?" I've slowly but surely educated good people to show more tolerance. Having said that, I'll be the first to condemn inappropriate behaviour from a Muslim, Asian, white, feminist - I don't really care who. I don't have a PC bone in my body. There are some great comments in this thread. The one I can least relate to is that we can't talk to people who listen to different music or watch different TV. Really? I was involved with an African woman, Asian, European, Australian. I have had mixed friends all my life. I never honed in on TV shows, but, I honed in on honesty, integrity, attitude (eg. I can't stomach arrogance, victim mentality and aggressive people). Is this so rare that people can converse beyond skin colour and gender?
- ryanlol 11y ago
  >No, but two wrongs don't make a right. Not in the slightest what I was trying to communicate, my point was that racism is so prevalent that it's hardly shocking at this point. Obviously that's not a good thing, but I found it a bit odd that someone would be shocked by such a remark when you hear much worse things every single day.
dcole2929 11y ago
In short yes. A) There are more white people in America in general (see really any/every census) B) There are fare more white people in positions of power. So it matters more when a white person is racist than when a person of color is. Racism sucks but the real kicker is discrimination
- 11y ago

taconacho 11y ago

It's not that surprising. Howard University is 95% black (source: <a href="http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1024">http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1024</a> http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl...) and is one of the lowest ranked colleges in terms of diversity. Coming from such a culturally closed-off environment to a different one comprised mostly of whites and Asians of different ethnicities and nationalities would definitely result in culture shock.

scarmig 11y ago
It'd be an irony if part of the reason students at HBCUs don't "mesh" with Silicon Valley is that they're not comfortable with diverse environments. Looking at a list of the "whitest" universities, their graduates seem similarly unrepresented in the places I've worked. A flawed but interesting test: do black CS graduates from Stanford and MIT fit better into SV than black CS graduates from Howard?
- pc86 11y ago
  I don't know how you'd measure fit (tenure at first job? % that change jobs to another SV company?), but it should be pretty easy to get hiring numbers. Stanford might not be a good test simply because of proximity, but MIT certainly would be a contender.
- dlreeves 11y ago
  As a black alum from MIT and feel I can speak to this anecdotally. Here are some distinction to keep in mind. 1) From the moment I stepped onto MIT's campus I was actively recruited by Silicon Valley companies. My freshman year was tough getting much attention, but recruiters would talk to me and generally gave off the vibe that I was wanted. Contrast this with going to a HBCU where these companies are not present on campus, or if they do show up its only for a day or two for a career fair. You wouldn't feel as welcome coming there. 2) I had black friends who were upperclassman who had "made it" in SV. They could offer advice and guidance. When I moved out to SV I also had them as part of social circle so I had social ties outside of work. Coming from a HBCU its likely you do not know anyone who works at these companies. You also do not know anyone who lives in the area to socialize this. If you do not relate to the people from work then you have trouble making friends.

joslin01 11y ago

What do you mean by the French try to assimilate people more? I'm confused because France is notoriously horrendous to tourists. I've seen polls rate it as the worst place for customer service with tourists and my own brother's experience got him nearly in a fight with some French guys bullying him. Furthermore, this is just a cultural thing. I'm white and was in a team with a bunch of white engineers that loved cars and things. Our discussions at lunch bored me to tears and I came to realize I had to leave the mega corp to pursue my dreams in the start-up world. When I arrived at the start-up world, I found people like myself -- people who didn't care so much about things but about ideas and imaginations. I was a lot happier because I found people who thought alike. It never had anything to do with color and presenting this problem as purely color-based is just being intentionally provocative.

pofjer 11y ago
Can't agree more with your last paragraph! Summed up pretty much everything I was trying to say above.
humanrebar 11y ago
There's a difference between "come as you are" and "come join us". Diversity and assimilation are two different things.
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pingou 11y ago
Well I'm not an expert but it seems to me that in France we expect minorities to leave a good part of their culture and become "real french", eat cheese, wear beret and never walk without a baguette under their arms, whereas in the US I was under the impression that there's a lot more effort from minorities to differentiate themselves. I don't think we can really talk of a "black culture" in France (at least not in the same degree as in the US, but I may be mistaken). I wasn't talking about tourists, we are well known for behaving badly with them, sorry about that. What shocks me is not that she doesn't feel she has a lot in common with her colleagues, but that she thinks that it's because she's black and they're not.

blisterpeanuts 11y ago

>> ...in France we try to assimilate people more... Really? What about the Muslim immigrants in the suburbs, who are practically in a separate world from mainstream French, cut off and unable to get in on the lifetime jobs that the French middle and upper middle class enjoy? French-African entrepreneurs report that they have better luck doing business with Americans, who don't care what your race is as long as you pay on time. This is a well documented problem in France.

pingou 11y ago
That's why I said "try". And I'm not saying that French are less racist than American, there definitely is some discrimination going. I was more talking about cultural assimilation, I think a black american feels a lot more like he belongs to "the black community" as a french black does.
- blisterpeanuts 11y ago
  But many, if not most, African Americans have culturally assimilated, and black culture has permeated mainstream America as well. The U.S. has come a long way since the 1960s.
conradfr 11y ago
It is an issue but a complex one. It's not like the whole country decided to put all Muslims there and never give them a job or education. And you should know they are plenty Muslims (and/or Arabs) programmers coming from the suburbs and having that coveted middle-class life, I worked and have worked with many.

AndyMcConachie 11y ago

This is not my experience in France at all. I'm a white American male, and I was shocked when I worked in France for a month. When I ate lunch in the cafeteria the muslim employees grouped together and there was a whole 'who are you eating with' question that I found odd. This was in 2004, and it is only 1 data point. But when talking to French friends of mine in tech who are African they share similar stories. One French friend of mine could not find a job in tech until he changed his name to a generic French one. He sent out over 20 job applications and didn't get an interview until he changed his name. After he changed his name he got an interview after the first attempt. These are only anecdotes, and I can't offer any hard evidence, but I would not suggest that France is somehow 'post-racial'.

pingou 11y ago
Well it doesn't mirror my experience at all, at school or at work, but yes I'm pretty sure it does happen. I didn't say there wasn't racism in France, more that the concept of belonging to a definite community depending on your color is probably less present as in the States. The job application problem is a terrible one, as getting a job is the best way to use the social ladder. That's the thing I don't understand, I thought capitalism only cared about money, if an Afro-French cannot find a job, surely it would be be advantageous to hire him, at a slightly lower market price. Still not good, but better than nothing, and once the minorities are in, we can expect the inequalities and hiring problems going away or at least being reduced with time...
- saint_fiasco 11y ago
  >, if an Afro-French cannot find a job, surely it would be be advantageous to hire him, at a slightly lower market price In some countries doing that is illegal. If the authorities notice that you are paying people of different races different amounts of money, you can get fined. Therefore it's easier to just find excuses to not hire them in the first place. Is France one of those countries?
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bunnymancer 11y ago

It's pretty standard in the US, due to our history, for colored people to just feel out of place in 9/10 white environment. But it goes beyond that, and is most likely true for French blacks as well, that if you're the only one who is distinctly visually different, you feel out of place. It's not something you can really explain to white males, but at least female devs tend to have somewhat of a similar experience. Just the sense of not belonging by virtue of being the one who clearly isn't like the others. Imagine yourself trying to work in a software studio in an arab country. Everyone is way darker than you, just, everyone, at work, on the street, and so on. They talk about different TV shows and they frown on anything bacon, and they wear these odd dresses you never feel comfy in because you like your jeans. They're louder than you, they tend to argue way more, because it's just part of the culture to do that, and it makes you uncomfortable. And also, you keep hearing about these white Christian terrorists, that look like you, that they wish would just get shot.

pc86 11y ago
> It's pretty standard in the US, due to our history, for colored people to just feel out of place in 9/10 white environment. Calling them "colored people" certainly doesn't help.
- xaa 11y ago
  Isn't it interesting how "people of color" is a common self-designation for (most frequently) black people, whereas "colored people", literally synonymous, is considered offensive? Of course there are valid historical reasons for it, but many people (probably including GP) don't know about them. The euphemism treadmill can get quite exhausting.
  - pc86 11y ago
    Well, the GP uses "our" in reference US history, and I've never met a single American under the age of 40 who doesn't know that most people consider "colored person" offensive, even if they thought it was a stupid reason. Like most things considered racially offensive, it's less about the dictionary definition of the word and more about what the connotation is. It's the same reason someone in an interracial marriage would hardly ever say "my black wife" but would say "my wife, who happens to be black," if it were relevant. I'm 100% positive they'd never say "my colored wife" unless they were 130 years old.

umanwizard 11y ago

African-Americans are a distinct ethnocultural group with their own cultural references, dialect, religious traditions, and so on (of course this doesn't apply to all black people; I'm talking about averages here.) "Black" in France is just a phenotype. Progressive-leaning people in the US would typically be uncomfortable with the idea of "assimilating" Blacks because it implies that White Anglo-Saxon culture is (or should be) the default or standard, whereas in reality it has coexisted with Black culture in the same country for hundreds of years.

dopamean 11y ago
As a black man who went to almost entirely white schools my whole life and grew up in a very white place in New York I can sort of confirm what you're saying. When I went to college and met other black students who grew up around more black people I found that I had very little in common with them and it was hard to communicate. I was then, and always have been, more comfortable around white people. On a side note, I was born in Jamaica and so when people refer to me as African American I always have a quiet chuckle to myself since I've never considered myself to be African and my passport says Jamaica.
- noir_lord 11y ago
  > and it was hard to communicate. I'm curious what the differences where in communication, here in the UK the black people I've worked with have been no harder to communicate with than anyone else, I have noticed there is slightly more of a communication gap with black people who come from London (but I've only known two and they where both deeply religious which I think had more to do with it).
  - umanwizard 11y ago
    Black Americans have had their own culture developing separately from Anglo-Saxon Americans for hundreds of years. I'm not sure why you think immigrants to Britain that don't share any common group characteristic other than "has dark skin and an African phenotype" are comparable.

jetskindo 11y ago

As a black software developer I had a much easier time getting along with the white French developer culturewise.

brandonmenc 11y ago

As a white guy who is totally not into "geek culture" at all, I'm in the same boat. And I simply do not care. I'm not going to start playing video games or watching Doctor Who, or whatever, just to fit in. I'm sure it's infinitely easier for me not to feel like an imposter than it is for a black woman, but of all the real hurdles standing in her way this should be the least concerning of them. Get over it, or the real problems will seem insurmountable.

Joof 11y ago
I doubt its just at work; the silicon valley area itself may be a bad culture fit. From experience, when you don't have people that you relate to face-to-face at home; it gets very depressing. You personally are likely to find people you relate to at home, but they may not. Being an outsider like that is a huge tradeoff; it can feel like moving to another country.

serge2k 11y ago

I wonder if any of the issues she faced were due to being female as well. Not exactly a great diversity story in that regard either. :/