6 ms·

Not surprising. Last week HN celebrated the "death" of IE, but this week will bemoan the passing of their dear Windows 7. Windows XP was ended last year. Do you

by dexwiz 11y ago

Not surprising. Last week HN celebrated the "death" of IE, but this week will bemoan the passing of their dear Windows 7. Windows XP was ended last year. Do you want to support two major versions of your software for years? No? Well neither does Microsoft. The "legacy systems" explanation of maintaining outdated software is vanishing with the rise of the modern web browser and the cloud. The local machine has less and less responsibility to run anything beyond a browser. And coders recognize they can no longer lock users onto Windows XP using IE 7, or the modern equivalent. Progress marches on, and at an ever quickening pace.

wnevets 11y ago
If windows 10 didn't have that metro ui and wasn't plagued with spying accusations most people wouldn't be bemoaning the death of windows 7. However because windows 10 comes with many different ways to track users, I see this not as an effort for "progress" but just another screw for microsoft to turn against their users.
- Qantourisc 11y ago
  Yep spyware and metro UI. But I can't imagine it would be this hard to code 2 GUI/Themes, and put in a checkbox to disable all spyware.
  - TheDong 11y ago
    > this hard to code 2 GUI/Themes You realize they're more than just themes. Aero and Metro are more different than QT and GTK in my opinion. Sure, old apps look okay with the metro UI theme, but Metro is also a design paradigm similar to material design which expects a fundamentally different layout and design. Windows is still themable, but it's not the theme that people are complaining about, it's the fundamental UI changes. Those are hard to switch between, and it's difficult for both developers and customers to deal with that. > put in a checkbox to disable all spyware The definition of spyware is subjective. The fact that google stores your search queries for later suggestion is spyware to some and convenience to others. There are a set of checkboxes under advanced options in the Windows 10 install to "disable spyware" and, it turns out, having those checkboxes didn't stop people from complaining. Even though it can be turned out, the fact that it's there and on by default (where spyware is mostly "send info to microsoft so that they can attempt to improve the product presumably. Which has no value if it's opt in because no one will do that). Neither of those is as easy to address as you make it out to be.
    - vetinari 11y ago
      > The fact that google stores your search queries for later suggestion is spyware to some and convenience to others. There is one very significant difference. The fact, that the Google search is being done at Google servers, so you have to send out the query - and you are aware, that you are sending the query over network to another computer. Not so with Windows 10 - search in start menu (with Cortana and Bing integration disabled) still sends your query to Bing. Why? It cannot do anything with the search, your local machine is being searched, why should be the query sent at all? The solution would be to firewall SearchUI.exe from sending out anything. But it turns out, that this was intentionally made difficult: a) The firewall rules include exe version numbers. b) The exe versions, their respective firewall rules and your preferences are changed by updates. c) You cannot forbid or manually vet the updates. So basically a+b+c together, Microsoft can (and does) change anything behind your back, without you noticing. > There are a set of checkboxes under advanced options in the Windows 10 install to "disable spyware" and, it turns out, having those checkboxes didn't stop people from complaining. As mentioned above, they are there for good feeling, if they are there. They don't really work as a reasonable person would imagine they would. For some things (i.e. telemetry, update vetting), there are no check boxes at all. It does not help, that even for check/combo boxes that are there, they are silently reset with updates. No wonder that people think, that this is unreasonable and talk loudly about that. And yes, it is easy to address - just don't do things behind people's back, be transparent with data you are sending out, allow out outs (you can ask at OOBE, without hiding choices) and don't silently change preferences. You know, behave how a honest person would behave.
      - mamon 11y ago
        I wonder: can we get something like complete list of servers accessed by those Microsoft trojans? If you try to block SearchUI.exe on system level Microsoft will always find a way to bypass it. If you do that with firewal on your ROUTER then you are protected, at least at home, while being in your own LAN.
    - yrro 11y ago
      > There are a set of checkboxes under advanced options in the Windows 10 install to "disable spyware" and, it turns out, having those checkboxes didn't stop people from complaining. Are these the checkboxes that are greyed out in the UI with no way to make them active?
- qntmfred 11y ago
  There's nothing wrong with metro ui, people just didn't like full screen start menu in win8. Win10 has the old start menu back
  - mercurial 11y ago
    I had briefly the misfortune of working with Windows 8. Double clicking on a PDF resulted in some sort of PDF reader opening up in fullscreen, without any obvious way of turning it into a normal window. I eventually resorted to installing a third-party PDF reader. If that's the new black, I can understand why people would want to stick with Windows 7.
    - Joeri 11y ago
      Even on 8 that full-screen pdf reader now has a title bar with close button (since 8.1). And on 10 it's a normal window. Yes, MS messed up the UX on windows 8.0. They realized it, they fixed it.
      - mercurial 11y ago
        Nonetheless, if that's representative of Metro, I'll just say "no thanks". The problem is that Metro is apparently intended for phone/tablets. It may be good for this kind of scenario, the little I've seen of it is disastrous for desktop use. I want the best use of screen real estate, not an ersatz Android intended for small touch screens.
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        They "fixed" metro by reverting back to the old UI. I don't know what crack the Microsoft UX team were smoking, but the utterly ballsed up on Windows 8, so badly that it made Vista look tame. Windows 7 has been around for a long time because of the mess that was Windows 8.
        Joeri 11y ago
        They assumed that the primary windows 8 user was going to be someone on a 2-in-1 touchscreen laptop. I used windows 8.0 on such a device, and liked it a lot. Windows 7's UI was a really poor fit for that device.
- ck2 11y ago
  Anyone who must use windows 10 should install Spybot Anti Beacon https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/ https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/ Works on Windows 7 & 8 too for older tracking/phonehome stuff. And Windows 7 users should install GWX control panel to prevent forced upgrades http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/
  - cm2187 11y ago
    I would be curious to know what spybot anti beacon can't block. Is it enough?
    - ck2 11y ago
      well since you must keep up with windows updates I am sure there is some information passed to microsoft that cannot be blocked during that process it might be possible someday like xprivacy on android to send empty or bogus information for data that cannot be blocked
      - cm2187 11y ago
        But the other thing is that it relies on group policies to block windows features. But I do not know is what data leak cannot be blocked with group policies (if any), even in the current version of windows.
tdkl 11y ago
IE wasn't exactly a preferred browser because it had less issues. I'd argue the opposite for newer Windows versions compared to Windows 7 (specially the shitshow around Windows 10 regarding privacy, updates and stability). There's zero reasons or features to push Windows 10, but I guess they just manufactured one.
userbinator 11y ago
The "legacy systems" explanation of maintaining outdated software is vanishing with the rise of the modern web browser and the cloud. The local machine has less and less responsibility to run anything beyond a browser. ...and the freedom, control, and privacy the user has over his/her computing experiencing is also vanishing along with it. That is the biggest and scariest issue surrounding this trend.
PhasmaFelis 11y ago
> Last week HN celebrated the "death" of IE, but this week will bemoan the passing of their dear Windows 7. Almost as if it's possible for the same company to make a good product and a bad product, somehow.
PhasmaFelis 11y ago
Stop pretending that people sticking with Win7 is nothing but boneheaded, reactionary fear of change. You know very well that the resistance to 8 and 10 is because 8 and 10 kind of suck for many users. Embracing "the march of progress" only makes sense if each new product is better. Nobody wants to support two major versions, but competent developers address that want by making sure each new version is at least as good as the last, not by just doing whatever and then cramming it down their customers' throats.
na85 11y ago
Win8 and Win10 are objectively worse than 7.
beedogs 11y ago
It's not our fault Windows 7 was the last good thing Microsoft ever did, in terms of operating systems.
Silhouette 11y ago
Do you want to support two major versions of your software for years? No? Well neither does Microsoft. Ideally not. The thing is, though, some of the stuff I work in is sold to customers who expect it to work for more than five minutes, and it's been sold with indications of how long support will be provided as standard and options for enhanced support contracts and so on. So we have an obligation to support older versions for a significant period, because that's what our customers were buying. It's true that we focus on the latest version for new features, but sometimes we also provide them on the previous generation, and pretty much everyone gets updates if there's a major security issue regardless of the age of their system. This arrangement is inconvenient at times from our point of view, but it doesn't concern us unduly because supporting long-standing customers is the cost of doing business with professionals. We find customers tend to move to our newer products naturally over time anyway, because the newer versions are significantly better in ways that our customers actually want. The "legacy systems" explanation of maintaining outdated software is vanishing with the rise of the modern web browser and the cloud. The local machine has less and less responsibility to run anything beyond a browser. That's a very narrow perspective. Web apps are all very trendy around HN, but the vast majority of business software is still running client-side. Microsoft had better hope it stays that way, too, because otherwise no-one has any reason to use either Windows or Office any more, in which case it might be a good time to start shorting Microsoft stock. Progress marches on, and at an ever quickening pace. You and I have very different understandings of what constitutes progress. Personally, things moving around in UIs all the time drives me crazy. From a business perspective, the concerns about security and confidentiality that arise with online services often far outweigh any benefit they might provide. And from both perspectives, the trend towards software phoning home or running remotely generally makes everything less reliable than it used to be. This isn't progress, it's a new low on several different fronts.
zokier 11y ago
> Do you want to support two major versions of your software for years? No? Well neither does Microsoft Maybe they shouldn't have promised support until 2020 then. I don't mind Microsoft reducing support periods for new releases, but dropping support mid-cycle for systems that are already out there is ridiculous.
- ikeboy 11y ago
  They're only dropping it for new systems. Arguably, someone buying a new system with a processor released in 2016 shouldn't expect support for older systems. This isn't just updating software, this is developing entirely new drivers to make new hardware compatible with Windows 7.
  - zokier 11y ago
    > They're only dropping it for new systems Wrong. They are also dropping support for existing Skylake systems.
    - ikeboy 11y ago
      Point taken. I sort of considered Skylake as new, but I misspoke. Have any Skylake systems not on Microsofts' approved list been sold with Windows 7 preinstalled? If yes, I'd consider that a problem, but not otherwise. I don't think it's their responsibility to support new devices that (according to this post) require significant restructuring of the OS to support.

by dexwiz 11y ago

wnevets 11y ago

If windows 10 didn't have that metro ui and wasn't plagued with spying accusations most people wouldn't be bemoaning the death of windows 7. However because windows 10 comes with many different ways to track users, I see this not as an effort for "progress" but just another screw for microsoft to turn against their users.

Qantourisc 11y ago
Yep spyware and metro UI. But I can't imagine it would be this hard to code 2 GUI/Themes, and put in a checkbox to disable all spyware.
- TheDong 11y ago
  > this hard to code 2 GUI/Themes You realize they're more than just themes. Aero and Metro are more different than QT and GTK in my opinion. Sure, old apps look okay with the metro UI theme, but Metro is also a design paradigm similar to material design which expects a fundamentally different layout and design. Windows is still themable, but it's not the theme that people are complaining about, it's the fundamental UI changes. Those are hard to switch between, and it's difficult for both developers and customers to deal with that. > put in a checkbox to disable all spyware The definition of spyware is subjective. The fact that google stores your search queries for later suggestion is spyware to some and convenience to others. There are a set of checkboxes under advanced options in the Windows 10 install to "disable spyware" and, it turns out, having those checkboxes didn't stop people from complaining. Even though it can be turned out, the fact that it's there and on by default (where spyware is mostly "send info to microsoft so that they can attempt to improve the product presumably. Which has no value if it's opt in because no one will do that). Neither of those is as easy to address as you make it out to be.
  - vetinari 11y ago
    > The fact that google stores your search queries for later suggestion is spyware to some and convenience to others. There is one very significant difference. The fact, that the Google search is being done at Google servers, so you have to send out the query - and you are aware, that you are sending the query over network to another computer. Not so with Windows 10 - search in start menu (with Cortana and Bing integration disabled) still sends your query to Bing. Why? It cannot do anything with the search, your local machine is being searched, why should be the query sent at all? The solution would be to firewall SearchUI.exe from sending out anything. But it turns out, that this was intentionally made difficult: a) The firewall rules include exe version numbers. b) The exe versions, their respective firewall rules and your preferences are changed by updates. c) You cannot forbid or manually vet the updates. So basically a+b+c together, Microsoft can (and does) change anything behind your back, without you noticing. > There are a set of checkboxes under advanced options in the Windows 10 install to "disable spyware" and, it turns out, having those checkboxes didn't stop people from complaining. As mentioned above, they are there for good feeling, if they are there. They don't really work as a reasonable person would imagine they would. For some things (i.e. telemetry, update vetting), there are no check boxes at all. It does not help, that even for check/combo boxes that are there, they are silently reset with updates. No wonder that people think, that this is unreasonable and talk loudly about that. And yes, it is easy to address - just don't do things behind people's back, be transparent with data you are sending out, allow out outs (you can ask at OOBE, without hiding choices) and don't silently change preferences. You know, behave how a honest person would behave.
    - mamon 11y ago
      I wonder: can we get something like complete list of servers accessed by those Microsoft trojans? If you try to block SearchUI.exe on system level Microsoft will always find a way to bypass it. If you do that with firewal on your ROUTER then you are protected, at least at home, while being in your own LAN.
  - yrro 11y ago
    > There are a set of checkboxes under advanced options in the Windows 10 install to "disable spyware" and, it turns out, having those checkboxes didn't stop people from complaining. Are these the checkboxes that are greyed out in the UI with no way to make them active?
qntmfred 11y ago
There's nothing wrong with metro ui, people just didn't like full screen start menu in win8. Win10 has the old start menu back
- mercurial 11y ago
  I had briefly the misfortune of working with Windows 8. Double clicking on a PDF resulted in some sort of PDF reader opening up in fullscreen, without any obvious way of turning it into a normal window. I eventually resorted to installing a third-party PDF reader. If that's the new black, I can understand why people would want to stick with Windows 7.
  - Joeri 11y ago
    Even on 8 that full-screen pdf reader now has a title bar with close button (since 8.1). And on 10 it's a normal window. Yes, MS messed up the UX on windows 8.0. They realized it, they fixed it.
    - mercurial 11y ago
      Nonetheless, if that's representative of Metro, I'll just say "no thanks". The problem is that Metro is apparently intended for phone/tablets. It may be good for this kind of scenario, the little I've seen of it is disastrous for desktop use. I want the best use of screen real estate, not an ersatz Android intended for small touch screens.
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      They "fixed" metro by reverting back to the old UI. I don't know what crack the Microsoft UX team were smoking, but the utterly ballsed up on Windows 8, so badly that it made Vista look tame. Windows 7 has been around for a long time because of the mess that was Windows 8.
      - Joeri 11y ago
        They assumed that the primary windows 8 user was going to be someone on a 2-in-1 touchscreen laptop. I used windows 8.0 on such a device, and liked it a lot. Windows 7's UI was a really poor fit for that device.
ck2 11y ago
Anyone who must use windows 10 should install Spybot Anti Beacon https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/ https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/ Works on Windows 7 & 8 too for older tracking/phonehome stuff. And Windows 7 users should install GWX control panel to prevent forced upgrades http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/
- cm2187 11y ago
  I would be curious to know what spybot anti beacon can't block. Is it enough?
  - ck2 11y ago
    well since you must keep up with windows updates I am sure there is some information passed to microsoft that cannot be blocked during that process it might be possible someday like xprivacy on android to send empty or bogus information for data that cannot be blocked
    - cm2187 11y ago
      But the other thing is that it relies on group policies to block windows features. But I do not know is what data leak cannot be blocked with group policies (if any), even in the current version of windows.

tdkl 11y ago

IE wasn't exactly a preferred browser because it had less issues. I'd argue the opposite for newer Windows versions compared to Windows 7 (specially the shitshow around Windows 10 regarding privacy, updates and stability). There's zero reasons or features to push Windows 10, but I guess they just manufactured one.

userbinator 11y ago

The "legacy systems" explanation of maintaining outdated software is vanishing with the rise of the modern web browser and the cloud. The local machine has less and less responsibility to run anything beyond a browser. ...and the freedom, control, and privacy the user has over his/her computing experiencing is also vanishing along with it. That is the biggest and scariest issue surrounding this trend.

PhasmaFelis 11y ago

> Last week HN celebrated the "death" of IE, but this week will bemoan the passing of their dear Windows 7. Almost as if it's possible for the same company to make a good product and a bad product, somehow.

PhasmaFelis 11y ago

Stop pretending that people sticking with Win7 is nothing but boneheaded, reactionary fear of change. You know very well that the resistance to 8 and 10 is because 8 and 10 kind of suck for many users. Embracing "the march of progress" only makes sense if each new product is better. Nobody wants to support two major versions, but competent developers address that want by making sure each new version is at least as good as the last, not by just doing whatever and then cramming it down their customers' throats.

na85 11y ago

Win8 and Win10 are objectively worse than 7.

beedogs 11y ago

It's not our fault Windows 7 was the last good thing Microsoft ever did, in terms of operating systems.

Silhouette 11y ago

Do you want to support two major versions of your software for years? No? Well neither does Microsoft. Ideally not. The thing is, though, some of the stuff I work in is sold to customers who expect it to work for more than five minutes, and it's been sold with indications of how long support will be provided as standard and options for enhanced support contracts and so on. So we have an obligation to support older versions for a significant period, because that's what our customers were buying. It's true that we focus on the latest version for new features, but sometimes we also provide them on the previous generation, and pretty much everyone gets updates if there's a major security issue regardless of the age of their system. This arrangement is inconvenient at times from our point of view, but it doesn't concern us unduly because supporting long-standing customers is the cost of doing business with professionals. We find customers tend to move to our newer products naturally over time anyway, because the newer versions are significantly better in ways that our customers actually want. The "legacy systems" explanation of maintaining outdated software is vanishing with the rise of the modern web browser and the cloud. The local machine has less and less responsibility to run anything beyond a browser. That's a very narrow perspective. Web apps are all very trendy around HN, but the vast majority of business software is still running client-side. Microsoft had better hope it stays that way, too, because otherwise no-one has any reason to use either Windows or Office any more, in which case it might be a good time to start shorting Microsoft stock. Progress marches on, and at an ever quickening pace. You and I have very different understandings of what constitutes progress. Personally, things moving around in UIs all the time drives me crazy. From a business perspective, the concerns about security and confidentiality that arise with online services often far outweigh any benefit they might provide. And from both perspectives, the trend towards software phoning home or running remotely generally makes everything less reliable than it used to be. This isn't progress, it's a new low on several different fronts.

zokier 11y ago

> Do you want to support two major versions of your software for years? No? Well neither does Microsoft Maybe they shouldn't have promised support until 2020 then. I don't mind Microsoft reducing support periods for new releases, but dropping support mid-cycle for systems that are already out there is ridiculous.

ikeboy 11y ago
They're only dropping it for new systems. Arguably, someone buying a new system with a processor released in 2016 shouldn't expect support for older systems. This isn't just updating software, this is developing entirely new drivers to make new hardware compatible with Windows 7.
- zokier 11y ago
  > They're only dropping it for new systems Wrong. They are also dropping support for existing Skylake systems.
  - ikeboy 11y ago
    Point taken. I sort of considered Skylake as new, but I misspoke. Have any Skylake systems not on Microsofts' approved list been sold with Windows 7 preinstalled? If yes, I'd consider that a problem, but not otherwise. I don't think it's their responsibility to support new devices that (according to this post) require significant restructuring of the OS to support.