12 ms·

Getting ahead vs. doing well

167 points by pmcpinto 11y ago

namenotrequired 11y ago
This is, in my opinion, also part of the reason why we have sects, conspiracy theories, etc. Maybe even self help books (and a lot of blogs on HN). People need a reason to feel important, and if someone comes along and tells them that there is some truth out there that the other suckers refuse to see or accept, it can be a seducing tale.
- Alex3917 11y ago
  > People need a reason to feel important, and if someone comes along and tells them that there is some truth out there that the other suckers refuse to see or accept, it can be a seducing tale. This is why most successful mainstream movies start with the main character waking up one day and suddenly discovering that they're not like everyone else and they have some sort of special destiny. It's interesting that both Hollywood and Silicon Valley are built on the same sort of masturbatory stories, just with different facades for different audiences.
  - copperx 11y ago
    It's disappointing to think that so many adults hold these schoolchildren values and hopes.
- oniMaker 11y ago
  You make a good point, but remember that it doesn't cover 100% of those "secret knowledge" groups. Some self-help books really are helpful. Some conspiracy theories really are true. Think about mathematics. That's a truth that many people refuse to see or accept, yet it's plainly visible.
cjstewart88 11y ago
This really resonates with me currently and something I try to remind myself of as much as possible. It's something I've struggled with in my 5 years of being a professional developer. Thanks for sharing!
- CleanCoder 11y ago
  The salary increase part or just the constant pursuit to be better than your coworkers? I always found development to be less competitive field than others - what are your experiences of the past 5 years?
  - dexterdog 11y ago
    Less competitive? Have you ever done a whiteboard interview with a guy on a power trip?
  - mclovinit 11y ago
    At least for me, competition has always been fierce especially early on and I paid for it with my health. In later years, I have found that I have acquired the tools (technical and business-oriented) and discipline to hold my own amongst my colleagues and also recognize political patterns in organizations without burning out. That has helped me survive this long without folding my hand early in the game. I love coding, but not as much as my health and well-being.
  - cjstewart88 11y ago
    At first it was the salary, now I find it being on the dev side of things and general company strategy. I'm always wanting to be included on every discussion within the company(30+ employees, I was employee number 6 or 7) if it relates to something I know about. It feels like an obsession. Sorry for the late response.
aianus 11y ago
How are you going to attract the wife you want if you're not better than other men (in some way, shape, or form)? That's always going to be the zero-sum game. Edit: s/a wife/the wife you want/
- theli0nheart 11y ago
  People of all socioeconomic statuses somehow find a way to get married. Ultimately, finding someone to spend the rest of your life with doesn't come down to the simple question of "being better"—the qualifications for a good mate are very specific to every person.
  - pixl97 11y ago
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/fashion/weddings/falling-marriage-rates-reveal-economic-fault-lines.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/fashion/weddings/falling-m...
  - aianus 11y ago
    > the qualifications for a good mate are very specific to every person The set of qualifications is specific to every person, sure, but whatever is in that set for a given woman, you need to be better than the competition at those qualifications. Unless you're fine with marrying just anyone, the thesis of the blog post doesn't hold for dating; it's not enough to be 'decent' or even 'good'.
- Bjartr 11y ago
  Attraction is fairly irrational and subjective, it's also fairly random. Not everybody is everywhere all the time, so there's a "right place, right time" chance aspect to it. Now, if you're talking about attracting a particular individual you've chosen to pursue, well then things get a bit more difficult.
- AlisdairO 11y ago
  Presumably the way you might be 'better' if you follow this kind of advice is that you're probably more likely to be happy, well adjusted, and able to give of your time and energy. Lots of women will value that over extra wealth.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
mcbrown 11y ago
I'm pretty sure the premium-only airlines have all failed because (a) it's hard to start an airline, (b) there are only a few routes where there is enough demand to fill a premium-only plane (which exacerbates all kinds of issues from competition to poor gate/crew utilization to maintenance costs and so on), (c) most of the routes that could theoretically work are capacity-constrained, forcing these startups to use more remote airports (e.g. Eos flew into Stansted rather than Heathrow) which reduces their utility, and (d) did I mention that starting an airline is hard? Other than that quibble, I enjoyed this post.
- jdietrich 11y ago
  London City Airport is effectively business-class only, but has very low utilisation despite providing a vastly better experience than Heathrow.
- dmethvin 11y ago
  As an example, the all-business SAS flight from Houston to Norway was targeted at oil company employees [1]. It couldn't fly 7 days a week because they had to take the plane offline once a week for cleaning/maintenance and there was no other all-business plane to rotate into its place. They stopped the route because the oil price slump reduced travel of oil company employees. [1] http://thepointsguy.com/2015/10/10-unusual-things-sas-737-transatlantic/ http://thepointsguy.com/2015/10/10-unusual-things-sas-737-tr...
- nickpeterson 11y ago
  It would seem you would also need to own the airports for a luxury airline to work. That way you establish small airports near crucial business centers, with a similar upscale set of services.
Bjartr 11y ago
The only person I care about being better than, is who I was yesterday, in any aspect. Or rather, that's what I strive for, unconscious tendencies be damned. I think it's a lot less stressful than comparing to all the people around you.
golergka 11y ago
> One unspoken objection to raising the minimum wage is that people, other people, those people, will get paid a little more. Which might make getting ahead a little harder. When we raise the bottom, this thinking goes, it gets harder to move to the top. What a ridiculous strawman to attack. Author didn't even try to prove that this "unspoken objection" actually exists, he just enjoyed the fantasy of evil man in suits so much.
- enraged_camel 11y ago
  There are a lot of studies that prove the mentality exists. I forget where I read it, but they did a study where they gave the participant two choices: they get $140 and their neighbor gets $160, or they get $120 and their neighbor gets $100. A significant portion chose the latter option.
  - dexterdog 11y ago
    Define significant.
  - jdreaver 11y ago
    I think the word "prove" is very strong when it comes to a psychological study that measures something indirectly. I agree with your parent comment. I doubt the author was even thinking of such studies when they wrote that part of the article.
  - hodwik 11y ago
    And they should, the value of the dollar is relative to the total in the economy. I suspect, because the question was even asked, the participants read into the study as a question of economics. I would have done the same thing. Assuming the two people make up the total economy; $120 out of a total $220 is a greater amount of money than is $140 out of $300.
    - stdbrouw 11y ago
      That seems a little far-fetched. You ask someone about distributing cash between them and their neighbor and of course the participant will assume that what you're talking about is their wealth relative to the sum total wealth of the entire world or the effects of large-scale inflation?
mark_l_watson 11y ago
Great article that I agree 100% with. I think that the problem is that people seek pleasure rather than joy in life. We become desensitized to things that are pleasurable but when we feel joy from love, helping someone, expressing ourself a creatively, etc. that kind of happiness never gets old. I have a friend who lives a very high life style. He gets a new Porshe every few years and recently at a group morning coffee he was talking about getting his wife a new car when the car she has is very nice. When he was done talking about his upcoming car purchase I started a new conversation about our cars being almost 10 and almost 20 years old and how wonderful it was having older things that still provide great service. I think my buddy needs to feel superior to people who don't have as high a life style. The funny thing is that I have way more economic resources than my friend. I liked Seth's point that in a networked world where things can be shared that we lose the feeling of exclusivity, which I think is a good thing!
- _yosefk 11y ago
  I sincerely envy people who're happy working their asses off to buy fancy cars and even houses, as it's a relatively affordable ideal. Those of us whose ideal it is to do what we please with our time are desiring something that seems to be more expensive on average.
  - matwood 11y ago
    Quote time :) It is only possible to succeed at second-rate pursuits -- like becoming a millionaire or a prime minister, winning a war, seducing beautiful women, flying through the stratosphere, or landing on the moon. First-rate pursuits -- involving, as they must, trying to understand what life is about and trying to convey that understanding -- inevitably result in a sense of failure. A Napoleon, a Churchill, or a Roosevelt can feel himself to be successful, but never a Socrates, a Pascal, or a Blake. Understanding is forever unattainable. --Malcom Muggeridge
    - lawnpuppies 11y ago
      I'd imagine a Socrates, a Pascal, or a Blake would see a life of understanding as a journey, which doesn't imply failure.
eliben 11y ago
"Sometimes you’re ahead, sometimes you’re behind. The race is long and, in the end, it’s only with yourself." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear_Sunscreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear_Sunscreen]
virjog 11y ago
> They quit a good job, a job they liked, because other people got a raise. > This is our culture of 'getting ahead' talking. That's a pretty bold conclusion without any evidence. The concept of a salary is to pay someone in return for work performed. How would Seth feel if I make the same amount of money as him just by sitting at home (obviously an extreme scenario from one aspect)? It would undervalue his contributions, his hard work and dedication, the obstacles he had to overcome, etc. Any reasonable individual would have second thoughts about working at a company that considers a manager as an equal (financially, salary-wise) to a janitor (for example). It would be safe to say that those two people didn't quit because other employees got a raise. It was probably due to the fact that their contributions didn't hold the same value anymore.
- ansgri 11y ago
  Though in principle I agree with you, it isn't very nice to throw labels around: the janitor might well deal with dangerous waste and earn 10x the call center manager.
- jdietrich 11y ago
  >It would be safe to say that those two people didn't quit because other employees got a raise. It was probably due to the fact that their contributions didn't hold the same value anymore. Their contributions held exactly the same absolute value, which is the entire point of Godin's post. Their decision is completely irrational unless they place a significant value on their relative status within the organisation.
- rtpg 11y ago
  The question is whether Seth's work is undervalued or if your work is overvalued. If Seth was making $75k, how much you're make is irrelevant to whether that's the number that he was looking for for his skillset. You could consider the company overvaluing your work a bad signal, but I don't get how that translates to Seth should make even more money than you (Company's made one bad judgement, so should now make two bad judgements?) EDIT: I understand the sentiment though. It's kind of childish ("why does he get more pasta than me??") but I think most humans are affected with it. I think the feeling is one of wanting to be worth more than others... I have a hard time justifying it on a moral level.
TheLogothete 11y ago
I can't believe I see a Seth Godin post on HN. Tomorrow, Charles Ngo, perhaps.
- krallja 11y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sethgodin.typepad.com https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sethgodin.typepad.com
  - TheLogothete 11y ago
    Seems like most did not get a single upvote, a handful got 4 or 5.
_yosefk 11y ago
If you work somewhere and everyone else gets a raise because there's a new company-wide minimum wage, but you don't get a raise because you were already compensated above that level and you got there through hard work (or so you think), you might quit, not because you resent the people who got the raises, but because you figure that you'll get a better deal at a place that gives raises to people who work harder. As to state-wide minimum wages - "the" argument against it is that less people are employed at a higher price of labor and that those priced out of the market are likely to be the ones hurt the most by it, though their numbers might be smaller than the numbers of those employed at the higher wage. (Of course this applies to the company with the $70K minimum wage as well: that company could have used the money it cost to implement this policy to instead hire more people.) There are counter-arguments along the lines of the demand for labor being inelastic and other such, but it's kinda off to not present a sensible argument against a minimum wage while presenting a crazy strawman argument against it, the latter implying with a high likelihood that the author supports a high minimum wage.
- deanCommie 11y ago
  But that doesn't make any sense. Ostensibly, you were being paid market rate before. If you were to leave, maybe you'll be able to get a raise at another position, maybe not, but the other employees at your company don't change that. Okay so now you're in a situation where other people who don't work as hard or as smart as you are getting paid close to you, or the same. That doesn't feel good, but what happens next? Well, if you continue working harder than them, you'll be promoted and get a raise, and they won't. And there, the system re-corrects itself. Now, I COULD buy the argument that seeing people who you know don't work as hard suddenly make the same money as you would make you yourself get lazy and not try as hard. Because surely they can't fire you for performing the same as the rest. But if that's the type of person you are, maybe the company would be better off without you anyway?
  - lazyjones 11y ago
    > But that doesn't make any sense. Ostensibly, you were being paid market rate before. So were those who got a raise, but the company decided to hand out raises as a gift (not as a reward) to lower performers only - of course this discrimination will be frustrating.
muzani 11y ago
It's usually about ego. It's not always bad people who have big egos. Sometimes good people have a large ego too. Consider the person who was told at 5 years old by his parents that he'll never be as good as his classmates. In school, they were told the same - by teachers, bullies, other authority figures that they'll be worthless unless they do something a certain way. Sometimes good people get pressured into this by friends, spouses, in-laws. Such a kind of person would be eager to prove others wrong. This is the kind of person who chases 'success'. They'll want to prove they are successful as a form of revenge or a way of impressing the in-laws. Buying expensive cars is the most obvious way. Or suits. Clothes. Houses. Sometimes there's insecurity and self-doubt. Everyone wants to improve, but the line for improvement is really vague. So they make it relative - compare progress to someone else rather than anchoring it to something solid, like savings. To many of these people, narrowing the minimum wage bar would be frustrating as it proves that they are hovering on the minimum line.
- vertex-four 11y ago
  > Such a kind of person would be eager to prove others wrong. Honestly, that's really quite rare - and on top of that, you're bordering on trying to say that bullying and putting people down is a good thing. The people I know who've struggled with bullying, family issues, and similar, tend to want to do well but struggle due to insecurities and mental issues in no small part exacerbated by this treatment throughout the first couple of decades of their life. As a result, things like "holding down a job at the supermarket", or even "turning up every day for volunteering", are achievements for many people who've suffered from these issues, never mind "succeeding" in the way that you define it.
  - chillacy 11y ago
    When an archer is shooting for nothing, he has all his skill. If he shoots for a brass buckle, he is already nervous. If he shoots for a prize of gold, he goes blind or sees two targets — He is out of his mind! His skill has not changed. But the prize divides him. He cares. He thinks more of winning than of shooting– And the need to win drains him of power. From the poet zhuang zhou. I also have friends who have extreme insecurities brought on by bullying and family issues and have a strong drive to succeed, and I can agree that I don't envy having these issues, because as focused as they are, they also mentally suffer with every setback and constantly battle anxieties as they chase their goals.
andygcook 11y ago
I remember a study from awhile ago that basically said once a top performer gets above a certain wage threshold, in general they no longer care about the wage itself, but just about being paid more than their peers. I'll try to find it and post it here.
hanoz 11y ago
If everyone in the land somehow had their wage adjusted to no less than the author's, I don't think he'd be so blasé about it, finding himself outbid for his current share of the world's finite resources, notably land and housing. I appreciate the sentiment that envy is to be avoided, but it's ridiculous to ignore the relative nature of wealth.
barrkel 11y ago
Of course, the mantra that Life is more fun when you don't compare is exactly what well-paid people would want other people to live by. There's an element of self-service in this attitude when you're well-paid yourself.
seiferteric 11y ago
I don't think the desire to get ahead is always wrong. We still compete against each other in many ways. How would the author feel if instead of being able to afford the nice house 5 minutes from work, he had to buy one 45 minutes away because he was priced out? How do you decide who gets the nice house if not for money?
copperx 11y ago
The comments in this thread are extremely disappointing. I was nauseated at the beliefs some of you hold regarding happiness. Enough HN for today.
hartator 11y ago
The $70,000 minimum wage is a bad example, the CEO of this company was in fact a crook that basically throw this out there to distract from charges where he is risking fines and prison for overpaying himself. Ref: https://www.google.com/search?q=%2470+000+minimum+wage&oq=%2470%2C000+mi&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.6560j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=%2470+000+minimum+wage&oq=%2...
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  I read your comment and felt sad. Why can't good people just do good things? Went to verify and came across this. Ex-wife alleged that he physically abused her. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-16/the-video-accusing-gravity-ceo-dan-price-of-domestic-abuse-won-t-be-published http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-16/the-video-...
kelukelugames 11y ago
As I've become more successful, I feel increasingly more like an underachiever. Fortunately, I resist the urge to compare material wealth. I bought a modest and affordable house for my income level. Going to pay it off in 5 years and hoard the rest of my money under my bed. Don't care if someone else bought a Tesla or went on another international trip. As a joke, I've started to brag about mundane things on facebook. Such as eating a "fancy" Chipotle burrito or taking an "exotic" trip across the bridge.
ChuckMcM 11y ago
The article makes a good point but if a person is already in the 'compare' mindset it is often impossible for them to internalize it. One of the oddest things is finding a fact that you don't believe because if you did, it would require you to change your whole belief structure about yourself. The canonical example is addiction, addicts believe they can quit any time, because if they couldn't quit then they would have to admit they were an addict. And generally admitting that means admitting you aren't in control and that is a scary place to be without any support. In startups you will often see this if the company is suddenly very successful and people are suddenly "rich" (by their own definition). I've seen two responses to that outcome, sometimes people are grateful that they were lucky to be in the right place at the right time, and some people develop this internal view that they are somehow "better" than the folks who did not get rich. In the latter case it expresses very oddly, putting down people who are doing better work than they are, but aren't rich. The challenge of admitting that they were just lucky, means they have to understand they are not somehow better than the people who didn't get rich. At least if you won the lottery its obvious you were just lucky.
rphlx 11y ago
This post shows a naive, or intentionally distorted, understanding of animal behavior. Relative social status exists and will be pursued and aggressively defended in every sexual species. If you want that to stop, you better get rid of males and/or females (reader's choice). Barring that, I'd suggest acceptance.
- wordbank 11y ago
  Or we can be mindful and do not follow our ancient "animal" behavioral patterns.
  - chillacy 11y ago
    Just to add on, there is evidence that this is attainable. Mindful meditation has been shown to reduce "animal behavior" and increased self regulation on a physical level with measurable changes to the brain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_mechanisms_of_mindfulness_meditation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_mechanisms_of_mindfulne...

167 points by pmcpinto 11y ago

This is, in my opinion, also part of the reason why we have sects, conspiracy theories, etc. Maybe even self help books (and a lot of blogs on HN). People need a reason to feel important, and if someone comes along and tells them that there is some truth out there that the other suckers refuse to see or accept, it can be a seducing tale.

Alex3917 11y ago
> People need a reason to feel important, and if someone comes along and tells them that there is some truth out there that the other suckers refuse to see or accept, it can be a seducing tale. This is why most successful mainstream movies start with the main character waking up one day and suddenly discovering that they're not like everyone else and they have some sort of special destiny. It's interesting that both Hollywood and Silicon Valley are built on the same sort of masturbatory stories, just with different facades for different audiences.
- copperx 11y ago
  It's disappointing to think that so many adults hold these schoolchildren values and hopes.
oniMaker 11y ago
You make a good point, but remember that it doesn't cover 100% of those "secret knowledge" groups. Some self-help books really are helpful. Some conspiracy theories really are true. Think about mathematics. That's a truth that many people refuse to see or accept, yet it's plainly visible.

cjstewart88 11y ago

This really resonates with me currently and something I try to remind myself of as much as possible. It's something I've struggled with in my 5 years of being a professional developer. Thanks for sharing!

CleanCoder 11y ago
The salary increase part or just the constant pursuit to be better than your coworkers? I always found development to be less competitive field than others - what are your experiences of the past 5 years?
- dexterdog 11y ago
  Less competitive? Have you ever done a whiteboard interview with a guy on a power trip?
- mclovinit 11y ago
  At least for me, competition has always been fierce especially early on and I paid for it with my health. In later years, I have found that I have acquired the tools (technical and business-oriented) and discipline to hold my own amongst my colleagues and also recognize political patterns in organizations without burning out. That has helped me survive this long without folding my hand early in the game. I love coding, but not as much as my health and well-being.
- cjstewart88 11y ago
  At first it was the salary, now I find it being on the dev side of things and general company strategy. I'm always wanting to be included on every discussion within the company(30+ employees, I was employee number 6 or 7) if it relates to something I know about. It feels like an obsession. Sorry for the late response.

aianus 11y ago

How are you going to attract the wife you want if you're not better than other men (in some way, shape, or form)? That's always going to be the zero-sum game. Edit: s/a wife/the wife you want/

theli0nheart 11y ago
People of all socioeconomic statuses somehow find a way to get married. Ultimately, finding someone to spend the rest of your life with doesn't come down to the simple question of "being better"—the qualifications for a good mate are very specific to every person.
- pixl97 11y ago
  http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/fashion/weddings/falling-marriage-rates-reveal-economic-fault-lines.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/fashion/weddings/falling-m...
- aianus 11y ago
  > the qualifications for a good mate are very specific to every person The set of qualifications is specific to every person, sure, but whatever is in that set for a given woman, you need to be better than the competition at those qualifications. Unless you're fine with marrying just anyone, the thesis of the blog post doesn't hold for dating; it's not enough to be 'decent' or even 'good'.
Bjartr 11y ago
Attraction is fairly irrational and subjective, it's also fairly random. Not everybody is everywhere all the time, so there's a "right place, right time" chance aspect to it. Now, if you're talking about attracting a particular individual you've chosen to pursue, well then things get a bit more difficult.
AlisdairO 11y ago
Presumably the way you might be 'better' if you follow this kind of advice is that you're probably more likely to be happy, well adjusted, and able to give of your time and energy. Lots of women will value that over extra wealth.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

mcbrown 11y ago

I'm pretty sure the premium-only airlines have all failed because (a) it's hard to start an airline, (b) there are only a few routes where there is enough demand to fill a premium-only plane (which exacerbates all kinds of issues from competition to poor gate/crew utilization to maintenance costs and so on), (c) most of the routes that could theoretically work are capacity-constrained, forcing these startups to use more remote airports (e.g. Eos flew into Stansted rather than Heathrow) which reduces their utility, and (d) did I mention that starting an airline is hard? Other than that quibble, I enjoyed this post.

jdietrich 11y ago
London City Airport is effectively business-class only, but has very low utilisation despite providing a vastly better experience than Heathrow.
dmethvin 11y ago
As an example, the all-business SAS flight from Houston to Norway was targeted at oil company employees [1]. It couldn't fly 7 days a week because they had to take the plane offline once a week for cleaning/maintenance and there was no other all-business plane to rotate into its place. They stopped the route because the oil price slump reduced travel of oil company employees. [1] http://thepointsguy.com/2015/10/10-unusual-things-sas-737-transatlantic/ http://thepointsguy.com/2015/10/10-unusual-things-sas-737-tr...
nickpeterson 11y ago
It would seem you would also need to own the airports for a luxury airline to work. That way you establish small airports near crucial business centers, with a similar upscale set of services.

Bjartr 11y ago

The only person I care about being better than, is who I was yesterday, in any aspect. Or rather, that's what I strive for, unconscious tendencies be damned. I think it's a lot less stressful than comparing to all the people around you.

golergka 11y ago

> One unspoken objection to raising the minimum wage is that people, other people, those people, will get paid a little more. Which might make getting ahead a little harder. When we raise the bottom, this thinking goes, it gets harder to move to the top. What a ridiculous strawman to attack. Author didn't even try to prove that this "unspoken objection" actually exists, he just enjoyed the fantasy of evil man in suits so much.

enraged_camel 11y ago
There are a lot of studies that prove the mentality exists. I forget where I read it, but they did a study where they gave the participant two choices: they get $140 and their neighbor gets $160, or they get $120 and their neighbor gets $100. A significant portion chose the latter option.
- dexterdog 11y ago
  Define significant.
- jdreaver 11y ago
  I think the word "prove" is very strong when it comes to a psychological study that measures something indirectly. I agree with your parent comment. I doubt the author was even thinking of such studies when they wrote that part of the article.
- hodwik 11y ago
  And they should, the value of the dollar is relative to the total in the economy. I suspect, because the question was even asked, the participants read into the study as a question of economics. I would have done the same thing. Assuming the two people make up the total economy; $120 out of a total $220 is a greater amount of money than is $140 out of $300.
  - stdbrouw 11y ago
    That seems a little far-fetched. You ask someone about distributing cash between them and their neighbor and of course the participant will assume that what you're talking about is their wealth relative to the sum total wealth of the entire world or the effects of large-scale inflation?

mark_l_watson 11y ago

Great article that I agree 100% with. I think that the problem is that people seek pleasure rather than joy in life. We become desensitized to things that are pleasurable but when we feel joy from love, helping someone, expressing ourself a creatively, etc. that kind of happiness never gets old. I have a friend who lives a very high life style. He gets a new Porshe every few years and recently at a group morning coffee he was talking about getting his wife a new car when the car she has is very nice. When he was done talking about his upcoming car purchase I started a new conversation about our cars being almost 10 and almost 20 years old and how wonderful it was having older things that still provide great service. I think my buddy needs to feel superior to people who don't have as high a life style. The funny thing is that I have way more economic resources than my friend. I liked Seth's point that in a networked world where things can be shared that we lose the feeling of exclusivity, which I think is a good thing!

_yosefk 11y ago
I sincerely envy people who're happy working their asses off to buy fancy cars and even houses, as it's a relatively affordable ideal. Those of us whose ideal it is to do what we please with our time are desiring something that seems to be more expensive on average.
- matwood 11y ago
  Quote time :) It is only possible to succeed at second-rate pursuits -- like becoming a millionaire or a prime minister, winning a war, seducing beautiful women, flying through the stratosphere, or landing on the moon. First-rate pursuits -- involving, as they must, trying to understand what life is about and trying to convey that understanding -- inevitably result in a sense of failure. A Napoleon, a Churchill, or a Roosevelt can feel himself to be successful, but never a Socrates, a Pascal, or a Blake. Understanding is forever unattainable. --Malcom Muggeridge
  - lawnpuppies 11y ago
    I'd imagine a Socrates, a Pascal, or a Blake would see a life of understanding as a journey, which doesn't imply failure.

eliben 11y ago

"Sometimes you’re ahead, sometimes you’re behind. The race is long and, in the end, it’s only with yourself." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear_Sunscreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear_Sunscreen]

virjog 11y ago

> They quit a good job, a job they liked, because other people got a raise. > This is our culture of 'getting ahead' talking. That's a pretty bold conclusion without any evidence. The concept of a salary is to pay someone in return for work performed. How would Seth feel if I make the same amount of money as him just by sitting at home (obviously an extreme scenario from one aspect)? It would undervalue his contributions, his hard work and dedication, the obstacles he had to overcome, etc. Any reasonable individual would have second thoughts about working at a company that considers a manager as an equal (financially, salary-wise) to a janitor (for example). It would be safe to say that those two people didn't quit because other employees got a raise. It was probably due to the fact that their contributions didn't hold the same value anymore.

ansgri 11y ago
Though in principle I agree with you, it isn't very nice to throw labels around: the janitor might well deal with dangerous waste and earn 10x the call center manager.
jdietrich 11y ago
>It would be safe to say that those two people didn't quit because other employees got a raise. It was probably due to the fact that their contributions didn't hold the same value anymore. Their contributions held exactly the same absolute value, which is the entire point of Godin's post. Their decision is completely irrational unless they place a significant value on their relative status within the organisation.
rtpg 11y ago
The question is whether Seth's work is undervalued or if your work is overvalued. If Seth was making $75k, how much you're make is irrelevant to whether that's the number that he was looking for for his skillset. You could consider the company overvaluing your work a bad signal, but I don't get how that translates to Seth should make even more money than you (Company's made one bad judgement, so should now make two bad judgements?) EDIT: I understand the sentiment though. It's kind of childish ("why does he get more pasta than me??") but I think most humans are affected with it. I think the feeling is one of wanting to be worth more than others... I have a hard time justifying it on a moral level.

TheLogothete 11y ago

I can't believe I see a Seth Godin post on HN. Tomorrow, Charles Ngo, perhaps.

krallja 11y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sethgodin.typepad.com https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sethgodin.typepad.com
- TheLogothete 11y ago
  Seems like most did not get a single upvote, a handful got 4 or 5.

_yosefk 11y ago

If you work somewhere and everyone else gets a raise because there's a new company-wide minimum wage, but you don't get a raise because you were already compensated above that level and you got there through hard work (or so you think), you might quit, not because you resent the people who got the raises, but because you figure that you'll get a better deal at a place that gives raises to people who work harder. As to state-wide minimum wages - "the" argument against it is that less people are employed at a higher price of labor and that those priced out of the market are likely to be the ones hurt the most by it, though their numbers might be smaller than the numbers of those employed at the higher wage. (Of course this applies to the company with the $70K minimum wage as well: that company could have used the money it cost to implement this policy to instead hire more people.) There are counter-arguments along the lines of the demand for labor being inelastic and other such, but it's kinda off to not present a sensible argument against a minimum wage while presenting a crazy strawman argument against it, the latter implying with a high likelihood that the author supports a high minimum wage.

deanCommie 11y ago
But that doesn't make any sense. Ostensibly, you were being paid market rate before. If you were to leave, maybe you'll be able to get a raise at another position, maybe not, but the other employees at your company don't change that. Okay so now you're in a situation where other people who don't work as hard or as smart as you are getting paid close to you, or the same. That doesn't feel good, but what happens next? Well, if you continue working harder than them, you'll be promoted and get a raise, and they won't. And there, the system re-corrects itself. Now, I COULD buy the argument that seeing people who you know don't work as hard suddenly make the same money as you would make you yourself get lazy and not try as hard. Because surely they can't fire you for performing the same as the rest. But if that's the type of person you are, maybe the company would be better off without you anyway?
- lazyjones 11y ago
  > But that doesn't make any sense. Ostensibly, you were being paid market rate before. So were those who got a raise, but the company decided to hand out raises as a gift (not as a reward) to lower performers only - of course this discrimination will be frustrating.

muzani 11y ago

It's usually about ego. It's not always bad people who have big egos. Sometimes good people have a large ego too. Consider the person who was told at 5 years old by his parents that he'll never be as good as his classmates. In school, they were told the same - by teachers, bullies, other authority figures that they'll be worthless unless they do something a certain way. Sometimes good people get pressured into this by friends, spouses, in-laws. Such a kind of person would be eager to prove others wrong. This is the kind of person who chases 'success'. They'll want to prove they are successful as a form of revenge or a way of impressing the in-laws. Buying expensive cars is the most obvious way. Or suits. Clothes. Houses. Sometimes there's insecurity and self-doubt. Everyone wants to improve, but the line for improvement is really vague. So they make it relative - compare progress to someone else rather than anchoring it to something solid, like savings. To many of these people, narrowing the minimum wage bar would be frustrating as it proves that they are hovering on the minimum line.

vertex-four 11y ago
> Such a kind of person would be eager to prove others wrong. Honestly, that's really quite rare - and on top of that, you're bordering on trying to say that bullying and putting people down is a good thing. The people I know who've struggled with bullying, family issues, and similar, tend to want to do well but struggle due to insecurities and mental issues in no small part exacerbated by this treatment throughout the first couple of decades of their life. As a result, things like "holding down a job at the supermarket", or even "turning up every day for volunteering", are achievements for many people who've suffered from these issues, never mind "succeeding" in the way that you define it.
- chillacy 11y ago
  When an archer is shooting for nothing, he has all his skill. If he shoots for a brass buckle, he is already nervous. If he shoots for a prize of gold, he goes blind or sees two targets — He is out of his mind! His skill has not changed. But the prize divides him. He cares. He thinks more of winning than of shooting– And the need to win drains him of power. From the poet zhuang zhou. I also have friends who have extreme insecurities brought on by bullying and family issues and have a strong drive to succeed, and I can agree that I don't envy having these issues, because as focused as they are, they also mentally suffer with every setback and constantly battle anxieties as they chase their goals.

andygcook 11y ago

I remember a study from awhile ago that basically said once a top performer gets above a certain wage threshold, in general they no longer care about the wage itself, but just about being paid more than their peers. I'll try to find it and post it here.

hanoz 11y ago

If everyone in the land somehow had their wage adjusted to no less than the author's, I don't think he'd be so blasé about it, finding himself outbid for his current share of the world's finite resources, notably land and housing. I appreciate the sentiment that envy is to be avoided, but it's ridiculous to ignore the relative nature of wealth.

barrkel 11y ago

Of course, the mantra that Life is more fun when you don't compare is exactly what well-paid people would want other people to live by. There's an element of self-service in this attitude when you're well-paid yourself.

seiferteric 11y ago

I don't think the desire to get ahead is always wrong. We still compete against each other in many ways. How would the author feel if instead of being able to afford the nice house 5 minutes from work, he had to buy one 45 minutes away because he was priced out? How do you decide who gets the nice house if not for money?

copperx 11y ago

The comments in this thread are extremely disappointing. I was nauseated at the beliefs some of you hold regarding happiness. Enough HN for today.

hartator 11y ago

The $70,000 minimum wage is a bad example, the CEO of this company was in fact a crook that basically throw this out there to distract from charges where he is risking fines and prison for overpaying himself. Ref: https://www.google.com/search?q=%2470+000+minimum+wage&oq=%2470%2C000+mi&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.6560j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=%2470+000+minimum+wage&oq=%2...

kelukelugames 11y ago
I read your comment and felt sad. Why can't good people just do good things? Went to verify and came across this. Ex-wife alleged that he physically abused her. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-16/the-video-accusing-gravity-ceo-dan-price-of-domestic-abuse-won-t-be-published http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-16/the-video-...

kelukelugames 11y ago

As I've become more successful, I feel increasingly more like an underachiever. Fortunately, I resist the urge to compare material wealth. I bought a modest and affordable house for my income level. Going to pay it off in 5 years and hoard the rest of my money under my bed. Don't care if someone else bought a Tesla or went on another international trip. As a joke, I've started to brag about mundane things on facebook. Such as eating a "fancy" Chipotle burrito or taking an "exotic" trip across the bridge.

ChuckMcM 11y ago

The article makes a good point but if a person is already in the 'compare' mindset it is often impossible for them to internalize it. One of the oddest things is finding a fact that you don't believe because if you did, it would require you to change your whole belief structure about yourself. The canonical example is addiction, addicts believe they can quit any time, because if they couldn't quit then they would have to admit they were an addict. And generally admitting that means admitting you aren't in control and that is a scary place to be without any support. In startups you will often see this if the company is suddenly very successful and people are suddenly "rich" (by their own definition). I've seen two responses to that outcome, sometimes people are grateful that they were lucky to be in the right place at the right time, and some people develop this internal view that they are somehow "better" than the folks who did not get rich. In the latter case it expresses very oddly, putting down people who are doing better work than they are, but aren't rich. The challenge of admitting that they were just lucky, means they have to understand they are not somehow better than the people who didn't get rich. At least if you won the lottery its obvious you were just lucky.

rphlx 11y ago

This post shows a naive, or intentionally distorted, understanding of animal behavior. Relative social status exists and will be pursued and aggressively defended in every sexual species. If you want that to stop, you better get rid of males and/or females (reader's choice). Barring that, I'd suggest acceptance.

wordbank 11y ago
Or we can be mindful and do not follow our ancient "animal" behavioral patterns.
- chillacy 11y ago
  Just to add on, there is evidence that this is attainable. Mindful meditation has been shown to reduce "animal behavior" and increased self regulation on a physical level with measurable changes to the brain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_mechanisms_of_mindfulness_meditation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_mechanisms_of_mindfulne...