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Another point that this article does not discuss is that in many of the "less coercive" societies, schizophrenia or related diseases are not seen as a disease o

Another point that this article does not discuss is that in many of the "less coercive" societies, schizophrenia or related diseases are not seen as a disease or problematic at all. McKenna writes: "A shaman is someone who swims in the same ocean as the schizophrenic, but the shaman has thousands and thousands of years of sanctioned technique and tradition to draw upon. In a traditional society, if you exhibited “schizophrenic” tendencies, you are immediately drawn out of the pack and put under the care and tutelage of master shamans. You are told: “You are special. Your abilities are very central to the health of our society. You will cure. You will prophesy. You will guide our society in its most fundamental decisions.”" [0] [0]: http://www.scribd.com/doc/12470230/Eros-and-the-Eschaton-rough-copy http://www.scribd.com/doc/12470230/Eros-and-the-Eschaton-rou... See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_schizophrenia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_schizop...

jessriedel 11y ago
I'm willing to bet that the welfare of the average schizophrenic is quite poor essentially everywhere in the world, a handful of tribes supporting them for myth-related reasons notwithstanding.
- sillysaurus3 11y ago
  While this may be true, hearing that you're useful is important. As someone that society has basically forgotten about, realizing that I won't be useful has recently crushed me. I would not presume to speak for schizophrenics. My quirks are bad, but not that. But the welfare of a person is greatly improved by the feeling that they'll be useful. Deluding yourself into thinking you're useful is much easier when there aren't external forces making it entirely clear that this is false. I can see that in a society without too much coercion, people with problems would be much happier simply because they aren't called out to prove themselves on a daily basis. I say "called out" rather than "asked," because it fits much better. The feeling that you have to do something very important is so pervasive. If you're not doing that, then what are you doing? Which is why it feels like you're called out to prove you're useful, rather than requested. I hypothesize that in a society that doesn't do that, schizophrenics' welfare would be much improved.
  - meowface 11y ago
    Excellent point. Many schizophrenics have poor quality of life, but support from friends, family, and society and large can prevent it from degrading further, and even make it a lot better. Some people with schizophrenia can even be relatively functional, even without medication, if they have a good social structure. I could be wrong, but from what I've heard, with therapy and decent support, they can basically recognize their hallucinations and most of their delusions as internally generated and try to ignore them. That's still a terrible way to live, and they also still have the negative symptoms (which even most serious medication can't treat very well, if at all), but schizophrenia isn't necessarily a doom sentence. And especially with medication, it can be manageable. John Nash, for example.
    - alexbecker 11y ago
      John Nash fairly famously refused medication (although this is not portrayed in the movie).
      - meowface 11y ago
        You're right. That makes the case even more interesting. He claims he was able to eventually rationally reject all delusions and voices.
- Alex3917 11y ago
  > I'm willing to bet that the welfare of the average schizophrenic is quite poor essentially everywhere in the world Actually schizophrenics in the developing world do significantly better than those in the US. That said, McKenna's models of shamanism weren't actually valid across cultures -- shamans actually played completely different roles in different societies.
  - mercer 11y ago
    My experience in a developing nation is that schizophrenics, provided they were not actively dangerous to their surroundings, were well cared for by family and their general environment. The 'village idiot' (even in the big city where I lived) - their words - was free to roam the city and generally watched out for by everyone. Of course, the flip-side was that those with mental illnesses (or other disabilities) who had no family would generally have a miserable existence. Edit: the equivalent I've found here in the West has been Evangelical churches. I strongly suspect some of the 'prophet' or otherwise 'specially anointed' characters to be (mildly?) schizophrenic.
- astazangasta 11y ago
  You lose your bet. Outcomes for schizophrenia (recovery) are substantially better in developing countries compared to developed ones, sometimes called the WHO paradox. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26640277 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26640277
krapp 11y ago
>In a traditional society, if you exhibited “schizophrenic” tendencies, you are immediately drawn out of the pack and put under the care and tutelage of master shamans. This is a form of coercion in and of itself. And as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures, it turns out to be a profoundly unhelpful kind of coercion, both for the "shaman" and the society in general.
- zappo2938 11y ago
  This is the same with children who are ADHD. Also, in France children who had symptoms of ADHD and were disruptive were made apprentices in kitchens usually around the age of 14 or 15. This might have changed in the last 20 years. It's why a lot of French chefs are notoriously psychotic, many of them were troubled children given a chance to put their energy to good use in a kitchen. [citation needed]
- aranazo 11y ago
  > ...as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures... Isn't that quite a strong claim?
  - krapp 11y ago
    If it is, it's backed up by quite a bit of evidence.
  - snowwrestler 11y ago
    No stronger than the claim that such things do exist. It seems fair that an assertion offered without proof can be dismissed without proof.
- hderms 11y ago
  Yeah, but what if it was substituted with art, or something similar. It's possible to produce a society which values mentally ill people without necessarily coercing them.
  - krapp 11y ago
api 11y ago
I love McKenna's raps but I really disagree with him here. I doubt he had much experience with actual schizophrenia, which is horrific and debilitating, and I doubt shamans present or past actually had it. Psychedelic drugs induce a superficially schizophrenia-like state but it's transient and may not actually be much like schizophrenia at all. Visionary, trance, and highly imaginative states are not schizophrenia or even indicative of mental illness. Real schizophrenia is a hell of paranoia and anxiety and I doubt anyone with a severe case could heal or make art or any of the other things a traditional shaman might do.
- dikdik 11y ago
  There's some really interesting research out there on schizophrenia. "Stanford anthropologist Tanya Luhrmann found that voice-hearing experiences of people with serious psychotic disorders are shaped by local culture – in the United States, the voices are harsh and threatening; in Africa and India, they are more benign and playful." http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/july/voices-culture-luhrmann-071614.html http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/july/voices-culture-luhrm...
  - taurath 11y ago
    The implications are huge - if you are more prone to actively resist or think that its wrong it will actively trigger panic, PTSD, anxiety and paranoia. If you think of them as spirits and your society values them its not a big deal, sometimes even possible helpful?
    - interesting_att 11y ago
      It seems intuitive to me. People who often do psychedelic drugs routinely state that 'resisting' the experience often leads to temporary mental distress.
- benbreen 11y ago
  Agreed completely. I was sympathetic to arguments like his right up until the time when my brother began acting weird and fell into a downward spiral that ultimately led to a schizophrenia diagnosis. What really sticks out to me is the brain damage-like effects of the disease - not just paranoia and delusions but a total breakdown in verbal and reasoning abilities. What my brother suffers from really is more comparable to Alzheimers or even forms of brain damage or post-stroke states than other mental illnesses I've encountered - it's not so much a visionary state as it is a crippling disability. Really grim stuff, and I suspect that many people who glamorize it don't have firsthand experience with the destruction it can cause. To end with a somewhat more positive note, the late Oliver Sacks has written beautifully and with great sympathy and humanity about his brother's battle with schizophrenia - I think it's mainly in his "chemical memoir" Uncle Tungsten. I've often wished that he wrote a whole book on the subject but I guess it hit a little too close to home for him.
threatofrain 11y ago
I'd say that firstly, these are anthropological case studies without much quantification; there can't be. It's meant to provide rich account or potential insight, and that's how it's taken. Secondly, I think the general professional narrative about those accounts is that those shamans were schizotypal, and that severe marginalization of the schizophrenic population is a cross-cultural phenomena. Every culture has its idea of what is acceptable, including what's acceptable magical or religious thinking (we don't think that Christians who pray to Jesus for cancer relief, whether effective or not, are schizophrenic). But if you step outside of those realms, you will be mistreated. If you tell Christians that you have a personal relationship with Jesus, they'll think that's normal. If you tell them that you actually hear the voice of Jesus, they'll be conspiculously polite but suspicious.

jessriedel 11y ago

I'm willing to bet that the welfare of the average schizophrenic is quite poor essentially everywhere in the world, a handful of tribes supporting them for myth-related reasons notwithstanding.

sillysaurus3 11y ago
While this may be true, hearing that you're useful is important. As someone that society has basically forgotten about, realizing that I won't be useful has recently crushed me. I would not presume to speak for schizophrenics. My quirks are bad, but not that. But the welfare of a person is greatly improved by the feeling that they'll be useful. Deluding yourself into thinking you're useful is much easier when there aren't external forces making it entirely clear that this is false. I can see that in a society without too much coercion, people with problems would be much happier simply because they aren't called out to prove themselves on a daily basis. I say "called out" rather than "asked," because it fits much better. The feeling that you have to do something very important is so pervasive. If you're not doing that, then what are you doing? Which is why it feels like you're called out to prove you're useful, rather than requested. I hypothesize that in a society that doesn't do that, schizophrenics' welfare would be much improved.
- meowface 11y ago
  Excellent point. Many schizophrenics have poor quality of life, but support from friends, family, and society and large can prevent it from degrading further, and even make it a lot better. Some people with schizophrenia can even be relatively functional, even without medication, if they have a good social structure. I could be wrong, but from what I've heard, with therapy and decent support, they can basically recognize their hallucinations and most of their delusions as internally generated and try to ignore them. That's still a terrible way to live, and they also still have the negative symptoms (which even most serious medication can't treat very well, if at all), but schizophrenia isn't necessarily a doom sentence. And especially with medication, it can be manageable. John Nash, for example.
  - alexbecker 11y ago
    John Nash fairly famously refused medication (although this is not portrayed in the movie).
    - meowface 11y ago
      You're right. That makes the case even more interesting. He claims he was able to eventually rationally reject all delusions and voices.
Alex3917 11y ago
> I'm willing to bet that the welfare of the average schizophrenic is quite poor essentially everywhere in the world Actually schizophrenics in the developing world do significantly better than those in the US. That said, McKenna's models of shamanism weren't actually valid across cultures -- shamans actually played completely different roles in different societies.
- mercer 11y ago
  My experience in a developing nation is that schizophrenics, provided they were not actively dangerous to their surroundings, were well cared for by family and their general environment. The 'village idiot' (even in the big city where I lived) - their words - was free to roam the city and generally watched out for by everyone. Of course, the flip-side was that those with mental illnesses (or other disabilities) who had no family would generally have a miserable existence. Edit: the equivalent I've found here in the West has been Evangelical churches. I strongly suspect some of the 'prophet' or otherwise 'specially anointed' characters to be (mildly?) schizophrenic.
astazangasta 11y ago
You lose your bet. Outcomes for schizophrenia (recovery) are substantially better in developing countries compared to developed ones, sometimes called the WHO paradox. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26640277 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26640277

krapp 11y ago

>In a traditional society, if you exhibited “schizophrenic” tendencies, you are immediately drawn out of the pack and put under the care and tutelage of master shamans. This is a form of coercion in and of itself. And as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures, it turns out to be a profoundly unhelpful kind of coercion, both for the "shaman" and the society in general.

zappo2938 11y ago
This is the same with children who are ADHD. Also, in France children who had symptoms of ADHD and were disruptive were made apprentices in kitchens usually around the age of 14 or 15. This might have changed in the last 20 years. It's why a lot of French chefs are notoriously psychotic, many of them were troubled children given a chance to put their energy to good use in a kitchen. [citation needed]
aranazo 11y ago
> ...as there's no such thing as prophecy, or magical cures... Isn't that quite a strong claim?
- krapp 11y ago
  If it is, it's backed up by quite a bit of evidence.
- snowwrestler 11y ago
  No stronger than the claim that such things do exist. It seems fair that an assertion offered without proof can be dismissed without proof.
hderms 11y ago
Yeah, but what if it was substituted with art, or something similar. It's possible to produce a society which values mentally ill people without necessarily coercing them.
- krapp 11y ago

api 11y ago

I love McKenna's raps but I really disagree with him here. I doubt he had much experience with actual schizophrenia, which is horrific and debilitating, and I doubt shamans present or past actually had it. Psychedelic drugs induce a superficially schizophrenia-like state but it's transient and may not actually be much like schizophrenia at all. Visionary, trance, and highly imaginative states are not schizophrenia or even indicative of mental illness. Real schizophrenia is a hell of paranoia and anxiety and I doubt anyone with a severe case could heal or make art or any of the other things a traditional shaman might do.

dikdik 11y ago
There's some really interesting research out there on schizophrenia. "Stanford anthropologist Tanya Luhrmann found that voice-hearing experiences of people with serious psychotic disorders are shaped by local culture – in the United States, the voices are harsh and threatening; in Africa and India, they are more benign and playful." http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/july/voices-culture-luhrmann-071614.html http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/july/voices-culture-luhrm...
- taurath 11y ago
  The implications are huge - if you are more prone to actively resist or think that its wrong it will actively trigger panic, PTSD, anxiety and paranoia. If you think of them as spirits and your society values them its not a big deal, sometimes even possible helpful?
  - interesting_att 11y ago
    It seems intuitive to me. People who often do psychedelic drugs routinely state that 'resisting' the experience often leads to temporary mental distress.
benbreen 11y ago
Agreed completely. I was sympathetic to arguments like his right up until the time when my brother began acting weird and fell into a downward spiral that ultimately led to a schizophrenia diagnosis. What really sticks out to me is the brain damage-like effects of the disease - not just paranoia and delusions but a total breakdown in verbal and reasoning abilities. What my brother suffers from really is more comparable to Alzheimers or even forms of brain damage or post-stroke states than other mental illnesses I've encountered - it's not so much a visionary state as it is a crippling disability. Really grim stuff, and I suspect that many people who glamorize it don't have firsthand experience with the destruction it can cause. To end with a somewhat more positive note, the late Oliver Sacks has written beautifully and with great sympathy and humanity about his brother's battle with schizophrenia - I think it's mainly in his "chemical memoir" Uncle Tungsten. I've often wished that he wrote a whole book on the subject but I guess it hit a little too close to home for him.

threatofrain 11y ago

I'd say that firstly, these are anthropological case studies without much quantification; there can't be. It's meant to provide rich account or potential insight, and that's how it's taken. Secondly, I think the general professional narrative about those accounts is that those shamans were schizotypal, and that severe marginalization of the schizophrenic population is a cross-cultural phenomena. Every culture has its idea of what is acceptable, including what's acceptable magical or religious thinking (we don't think that Christians who pray to Jesus for cancer relief, whether effective or not, are schizophrenic). But if you step outside of those realms, you will be mistreated. If you tell Christians that you have a personal relationship with Jesus, they'll think that's normal. If you tell them that you actually hear the voice of Jesus, they'll be conspiculously polite but suspicious.