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Quiet naval hero who rescued Enigma machine dies aged 95

160 points by CarolineW 11y ago

branchless 11y ago
Amazing bravery. How many lives did his action save? This is the kind of person that makes you proud to be British. Selfless.
chiph 11y ago
I avoided watching "U571" because of the fictionalization. Should I go back and watch it?
- arethuza 11y ago
  If you want a fictional account of an American obtaining crypto material from a sinking U-boat I'd recommend the one included in Cryptonomicon....
- Symbiote 11y ago
  I don't know if you should watch it... But https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-571_(film)#Historical_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-571_(film)#Historical_events : "David Balme, the British naval officer who led the boarding party aboard U-110, called U-571, "a great film"[9] and said that the film would not have been financially viable without being "Americanised"." And there's a bit more of his opinion and recollections in a BBC article from when the film was released: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/774427.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/774427.stm
- balls187 11y ago
  Do you like WWII based movies? It's decent enough.
OliverJones 11y ago
Thanks, Lt. Balme.
Stolpe 11y ago
"The story of the seizure of the machine by Balme and his shipmates was kept secret until the mid-1970s". I've always been intrigued by this fact. Does anyone know why this was kept a secret for so long?
- pjc50 11y ago
  That sounds like the 30 year rule in action. At the time it was done, it would have been extremely secret, and secrecy was not abandoned simply because the war was over. Bletchley was kept secret for even longer.
- ptha 11y ago
  Interestingly from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine#History "An estimated 100,000 Enigma machines were constructed. After the end of World War II, the Allies sold captured Enigma machines, still widely considered secure, to developing countries". I'm sure they were quite happy to sell Enigma and also decrypt their communications for nearly another 30 years.
  - arethuza 11y ago
    Another interesting thing to note is that the Soviets knew fine well that the UK could decrypt German codes from their spies at Bletchley Park.
  - anovikov 11y ago
    If the Enigma machines were operated properly, they could never be broken. Breaking them were a result of German lack of discipline and irresponsibility, not machine's weakness (maybe a simple inscription on the cover of machine in the bold letters would help though, machine designers just expected too much from their enlisted, barely literate operators).
    - gshubert17 11y ago
      Not never. One of the "features" of the Enigma was that a plaintext letter could never be encrypted to itself. An 'A' going in could come out as any other letter, except 'A'. German information security policies were generally pretty good. There were lapses, of course, and some of these were used to form cribs for a known plaintext attack on encrypted messages. But Enigma was/is not invulnerable. People found a couple encrypted Enigma messages after World War II. Here is a note from a group of people using modern computers and brute force to decrypt them: http://www.enigmaathome.net/forum_thread.php?id=318 http://www.enigmaathome.net/forum_thread.php?id=318
moogleii 11y ago
So did Allen Long get anything? "Telegraphist Allen Long quickly located the coding device which looked like a typewriter. Long “pressed the keys and. finding results peculiar, sent it up the hatch”."
- cmdkeen 11y ago
  Yep - he was awarded the Distinguished Service Medal which was the other ranks version of the Distinguished Service Cross which Lt Cdr Balme was awarded. The Daily Telegraph usually does good obituaries: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/12078997/Lieutenant-Commander-David-Balme-obituary.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/12078997/Lieutena...
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
Fun fact, two M4 Enigmas were retrieved from the U-505 in June 1944. This sub can be toured at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/the-exhibit/artifacts/enigma/ http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/the-exhi...
SEJeff 11y ago
FWIW, there is another captured german Uboat at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, U505, where they also captured an Enigma machine. This mission was also secret, and this was actually captured by American sailors, not british ones. http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/ http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/ The tours are absolutely fascinating. Anyone visiting Chicago who is a history buff should check it out.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  I grew up in Chicago, and I must second this. The tour is amazing. The U505 initially was outside the museum, but a few years ago they moved it into its own beautifully done concrete hall [1]. I highly recommend it if you're in town and have the time. [1] http://www.msichicago.org/fileadmin/Exhibits/permanent/u505/exhibit/U505_wide_608.jpg http://www.msichicago.org/fileadmin/Exhibits/permanent/u505/...
  - sean-duffy 11y ago
    Wow this looks great, I'd love to visit if I came to Chicago some time. Here in Liverpool we have a U-Boat but it's cut into cross sections with transparent panels so that you can see inside. I think actually being inside the thing would give you a better idea of the atmosphere and what it would have been like. http://www.u-boatstory.co.uk/ http://www.u-boatstory.co.uk/
- egroat 11y ago
  It is a shame Hollywood has a tendency to portray the successes of the Allies in general as being conducted purely by American citizens. Of course it doesn't help that the other nations don't actively promote their forces in the same manner the Americans do - perhaps good, perhaps bad.
  - arethuza 11y ago
    There are some splendid UK films about the Battle of the Atlantic - my favourite being The Cruel Sea. NB The author of the novel on which the The Cruel Sea is based, Nicholas Monsarrat, wrote a moving account of his own service - Three Corvettes - which is one of the few books that has reduced me to tears. Funnily enough I happened to read the book while flying over the North Atlantic... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Monsarrat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Monsarrat
epalmer 11y ago
http://www.amazon.com/The-Codebreakers-Comprehensive-Communication-Internet/dp/0684831309 http://www.amazon.com/The-Codebreakers-Comprehensive-Communi... A good read about the crypto behind the Enigmia and other encryption approaches. A fun read.
- gshubert17 11y ago
  "The Codebreakers" cited above, is a massive history of cryptography. The same author, David Kahn, has written a book focusing on the Enigma called "Seizing the Enigma". http://www.amazon.com/Seizing-Enigma-German-U-Boats-1939-1943/dp/0395427398/ http://www.amazon.com/Seizing-Enigma-German-U-Boats-1939-194...
  - epalmer 11y ago
    Thanks, I'll have to read that one.
bliaxiong 11y ago
They should at least posthumously bump his DSC to something higher.
richieb 11y ago
The story of the Enigma is quite complex. But by 1941 the Allies knew how the machine worked (there were commercial Enigmas sold before the war). The Naval Enigma was somewhat more secure (more rotors to choose from) and obtaining the daily setting book would be the most important thing, not the machine itself. Polish mathematicians broke the early Enigma in the late 1930s (http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/virtualbp/poles/poles.htm http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/virtualbp/poles/poles.htm), they passed their information to the British in 1939 and that was used as a starting point of the work at Blechley Park. If you are interested in the details, check out the book "The Hut 6 Story" by Gordon Welchman. He was a peer of Turing who worked on the Army and Air Force Enigma, while Turing worked on the Naval version. Of course Turing's biography by Andrew Hodges also has a lot of details how the Engima was broken.
- yoodenvranx 11y ago
  I was always wondering if Neal Stephensons "Cryptonomicon" is historically accurate when he writes about the enigma and its background.
vic-traill 11y ago
In an interview in the BBC Special about Bletchley Park 'The Goose That Laid the Golden Eggs' David Balme is interviewed and the focus is on the bigram tables that he captured intact. There is no mention of actually capturing an Enigma machine. This is not to say that one wasn't included in the capture of U110. Rather, I get the sense that the capture of the bigram tables was a Big Thing, possibly more important than the acquisition of a physical Enigma in the breaking of the Naval Enigma code, as Turing had engineered much of the machine conceptually. N.B. Would post the link to the BBC special - it's part 2 of 4, and quite interesting - but I don't have a strong enough sense of what is netiquette in the posting of links yet.
rurounijones 11y ago
A sad loss, so many people made so many silent sacrifices for Engima. Worth mentioning the other pretty unsung sacrifices made by crew members of HMS Petard; which can be read in the book "Fighting Destroyer".

160 points by CarolineW 11y ago

Amazing bravery. How many lives did his action save? This is the kind of person that makes you proud to be British. Selfless.

chiph 11y ago

I avoided watching "U571" because of the fictionalization. Should I go back and watch it?

arethuza 11y ago
If you want a fictional account of an American obtaining crypto material from a sinking U-boat I'd recommend the one included in Cryptonomicon....
Symbiote 11y ago
I don't know if you should watch it... But https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-571_(film)#Historical_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-571_(film)#Historical_events : "David Balme, the British naval officer who led the boarding party aboard U-110, called U-571, "a great film"[9] and said that the film would not have been financially viable without being "Americanised"." And there's a bit more of his opinion and recollections in a BBC article from when the film was released: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/774427.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/774427.stm
balls187 11y ago
Do you like WWII based movies? It's decent enough.

OliverJones 11y ago

Thanks, Lt. Balme.

Stolpe 11y ago

"The story of the seizure of the machine by Balme and his shipmates was kept secret until the mid-1970s". I've always been intrigued by this fact. Does anyone know why this was kept a secret for so long?

pjc50 11y ago
That sounds like the 30 year rule in action. At the time it was done, it would have been extremely secret, and secrecy was not abandoned simply because the war was over. Bletchley was kept secret for even longer.
ptha 11y ago
Interestingly from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine#History "An estimated 100,000 Enigma machines were constructed. After the end of World War II, the Allies sold captured Enigma machines, still widely considered secure, to developing countries". I'm sure they were quite happy to sell Enigma and also decrypt their communications for nearly another 30 years.
- arethuza 11y ago
  Another interesting thing to note is that the Soviets knew fine well that the UK could decrypt German codes from their spies at Bletchley Park.
- anovikov 11y ago
  If the Enigma machines were operated properly, they could never be broken. Breaking them were a result of German lack of discipline and irresponsibility, not machine's weakness (maybe a simple inscription on the cover of machine in the bold letters would help though, machine designers just expected too much from their enlisted, barely literate operators).
  - gshubert17 11y ago
    Not never. One of the "features" of the Enigma was that a plaintext letter could never be encrypted to itself. An 'A' going in could come out as any other letter, except 'A'. German information security policies were generally pretty good. There were lapses, of course, and some of these were used to form cribs for a known plaintext attack on encrypted messages. But Enigma was/is not invulnerable. People found a couple encrypted Enigma messages after World War II. Here is a note from a group of people using modern computers and brute force to decrypt them: http://www.enigmaathome.net/forum_thread.php?id=318 http://www.enigmaathome.net/forum_thread.php?id=318

moogleii 11y ago

So did Allen Long get anything? "Telegraphist Allen Long quickly located the coding device which looked like a typewriter. Long “pressed the keys and. finding results peculiar, sent it up the hatch”."

cmdkeen 11y ago
Yep - he was awarded the Distinguished Service Medal which was the other ranks version of the Distinguished Service Cross which Lt Cdr Balme was awarded. The Daily Telegraph usually does good obituaries: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/12078997/Lieutenant-Commander-David-Balme-obituary.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/12078997/Lieutena...

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

Fun fact, two M4 Enigmas were retrieved from the U-505 in June 1944. This sub can be toured at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/the-exhibit/artifacts/enigma/ http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/the-exhi...

SEJeff 11y ago

FWIW, there is another captured german Uboat at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, U505, where they also captured an Enigma machine. This mission was also secret, and this was actually captured by American sailors, not british ones. http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/ http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/ The tours are absolutely fascinating. Anyone visiting Chicago who is a history buff should check it out.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
I grew up in Chicago, and I must second this. The tour is amazing. The U505 initially was outside the museum, but a few years ago they moved it into its own beautifully done concrete hall [1]. I highly recommend it if you're in town and have the time. [1] http://www.msichicago.org/fileadmin/Exhibits/permanent/u505/exhibit/U505_wide_608.jpg http://www.msichicago.org/fileadmin/Exhibits/permanent/u505/...
- sean-duffy 11y ago
  Wow this looks great, I'd love to visit if I came to Chicago some time. Here in Liverpool we have a U-Boat but it's cut into cross sections with transparent panels so that you can see inside. I think actually being inside the thing would give you a better idea of the atmosphere and what it would have been like. http://www.u-boatstory.co.uk/ http://www.u-boatstory.co.uk/
egroat 11y ago
It is a shame Hollywood has a tendency to portray the successes of the Allies in general as being conducted purely by American citizens. Of course it doesn't help that the other nations don't actively promote their forces in the same manner the Americans do - perhaps good, perhaps bad.
- arethuza 11y ago
  There are some splendid UK films about the Battle of the Atlantic - my favourite being The Cruel Sea. NB The author of the novel on which the The Cruel Sea is based, Nicholas Monsarrat, wrote a moving account of his own service - Three Corvettes - which is one of the few books that has reduced me to tears. Funnily enough I happened to read the book while flying over the North Atlantic... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Monsarrat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Monsarrat

epalmer 11y ago

http://www.amazon.com/The-Codebreakers-Comprehensive-Communication-Internet/dp/0684831309 http://www.amazon.com/The-Codebreakers-Comprehensive-Communi... A good read about the crypto behind the Enigmia and other encryption approaches. A fun read.

gshubert17 11y ago
"The Codebreakers" cited above, is a massive history of cryptography. The same author, David Kahn, has written a book focusing on the Enigma called "Seizing the Enigma". http://www.amazon.com/Seizing-Enigma-German-U-Boats-1939-1943/dp/0395427398/ http://www.amazon.com/Seizing-Enigma-German-U-Boats-1939-194...
- epalmer 11y ago
  Thanks, I'll have to read that one.

bliaxiong 11y ago

They should at least posthumously bump his DSC to something higher.

richieb 11y ago

The story of the Enigma is quite complex. But by 1941 the Allies knew how the machine worked (there were commercial Enigmas sold before the war). The Naval Enigma was somewhat more secure (more rotors to choose from) and obtaining the daily setting book would be the most important thing, not the machine itself. Polish mathematicians broke the early Enigma in the late 1930s (http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/virtualbp/poles/poles.htm http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/virtualbp/poles/poles.htm), they passed their information to the British in 1939 and that was used as a starting point of the work at Blechley Park. If you are interested in the details, check out the book "The Hut 6 Story" by Gordon Welchman. He was a peer of Turing who worked on the Army and Air Force Enigma, while Turing worked on the Naval version. Of course Turing's biography by Andrew Hodges also has a lot of details how the Engima was broken.

yoodenvranx 11y ago
I was always wondering if Neal Stephensons "Cryptonomicon" is historically accurate when he writes about the enigma and its background.

vic-traill 11y ago

In an interview in the BBC Special about Bletchley Park 'The Goose That Laid the Golden Eggs' David Balme is interviewed and the focus is on the bigram tables that he captured intact. There is no mention of actually capturing an Enigma machine. This is not to say that one wasn't included in the capture of U110. Rather, I get the sense that the capture of the bigram tables was a Big Thing, possibly more important than the acquisition of a physical Enigma in the breaking of the Naval Enigma code, as Turing had engineered much of the machine conceptually. N.B. Would post the link to the BBC special - it's part 2 of 4, and quite interesting - but I don't have a strong enough sense of what is netiquette in the posting of links yet.

rurounijones 11y ago

A sad loss, so many people made so many silent sacrifices for Engima. Worth mentioning the other pretty unsung sacrifices made by crew members of HMS Petard; which can be read in the book "Fighting Destroyer".